tbar220
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CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:14 am

This came out yesterday. Surprised the media hasn't jumped all over this. Surprised nobody has jumped all over this. Sure, its already known, but it pretty much debunks the "they still might be out there" theory, the "we haven't searched everywhere" theory, etc. etc.

***

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/

WASHINGTON - In his final word, the CIA’s top weapons inspector in Iraq said Monday that the hunt for weapons of mass destruction has “gone as far as feasible” and has found nothing, closing an investigation into the purported programs of Saddam Hussein that were used to justify the 2003 invasion.

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“After more than 18 months, the WMD investigation and debriefing of the WMD-related detainees has been exhausted,” wrote Charles Duelfer, head of the Iraq Survey Group, in an addendum to the final report he issued last fall.

“As matters now stand, the WMD investigation has gone as far as feasible.”


***

This report is pretty damning. Our reason for going to war was WMD. For six months this country was led to believe that we were under an immediate threat from Iraq's WMD. For six months the Bush Administration tried to convince the world that there were WMD's in Iraq.

This makes me so mad. Why are they not being held responsible? I don't buy the excuse that it was the CIA or FBI's fault, that it was bad intelligence. The responsibility goes all the way to the top, to the people who led us into this war. These people ordered our armed forces to fight a war to defend our country from WMD's, and now 1500 of our soldiers are dead and there are no WMD's.

If Clinton got impeached for lying about a blowjob under oath, why isn't Bush under fire for lying to the American people and the world? These lies have led to thousands of deaths and incredible destruction.
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CaptOveur
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:16 am

Old news is so exciting.
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tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:18 am

It is isn't it. And doesn't it make you mad?

If Bush lied to us, if he deliberately mislead us to go to war under the pretenses of WMD, doesn't that make you mad?

If Bush was just dumb, and believed false intelligence, doesn't that make you mad?

Why are 1,500 of our soldiers dead, for what? Why are so many Americans dead? The reason we went to war, and this cannot be denied, was WMD.

You just brush it aside as old news, but these are people's lives we're talking about.
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Schoenorama
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RE: CIA�s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 1):
Old news is so exciting.

I guess you prefer more recent news about the latest attack on GI's in Iraq; GI's who actually believed Saddam had thousands of WMD's and was actually behind 911.
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CaptOveur
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
It is isn't it. And doesn't it make you mad?

Honestly I don't give a shit. We are there now, we need to deal with it and get out. Not like we can un-invade.
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Biggles
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:27 am

I will always remember Rummy's "They have WMD's , and we know exactly where there are" speech..  Yeah sure
 
tbar220
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RE: CIA�s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 4):
Honestly I don't give a shit. We are there now, we need to deal with it and get out. Not like we can un-invade.

So it doesn't bother to you that we went to war on false pretenses, and we now have dead soldiers because of it? I won't try and convince you otherwise, but I just want to know.
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Mir
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Biggles (Reply 5):
I will always remember Rummy's "They have WMD's , and we know exactly where there are" speech..

Yup, they were in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, east and west somewhat. Weren't they?????????  confused 

So remind me, why did we go to war again? Oh, that's right, to free the Iraqi people. That's why Bush kept giving all these "Saddam has weapons and we must disarm him" speeches before the war started.  Yeah sure

-Mir
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Leskova
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:43 am

In related news, the CIA has reportedly located a person that was surprised by this news...

In all honesty - is there really anyone who didn't see this coming? Including the "we didn't go to war because of the weapons" comments?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:45 am

The point is that we as Americans are lazy. We don't care that this administration lied to us about this war. Why do I say this? We reelected them.
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CaptOveur
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RE: CIA�s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 6):
So it doesn't bother to you that we went to war on false pretenses, and we now have dead soldiers because of it? I won't try and convince you otherwise, but I just want to know.

Hindsight is 20/20 There is nothing showing that anyone KNEW at the time of the invasion there were no WMDs. For there to be a LIE someone would have to KNOWINGLY mislead the nation. I am not convinced there was a lie.

It is a war, people die. We can't undo what we have done but if the people there want to make their country into a great nation we are enabling them. I am sorry those soldiers are gone but they were 100% aware of the risks when they signed on the dotted line. Death is an occupational hazard in the military.

Imagine all the bad decisions in the history of the world, or even in any of our lives that could be undone if we knew what the result would be. There was actually a pretty interesting episode of Star Trek that addressed this exact issue.

You are just looking for yet another thing about Bush to bitch about.
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AA777
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 9):
The point is that we as Americans are lazy. We don't care that this administration lied to us about this war. Why do I say this? We reelected them.

Leave it to the conservatives to cover Bush's arse! WHO CARES THAT ALMOST 2000 AMERICANS HAVE DIED? What about the 100,000 + Iraqis that died?

Here's my take: Bush KNEW there was no WMD. It is ALL about power politics, including oil and American influence in the region. It infurites me, but hey, I could have told you all this 2 years ago.

-AA777
 
Guest

RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 4):
Honestly I don't give a shit.

If it was Clinton or any other Democrat, you would.
 
tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
You are just looking for yet another thing about Bush to bitch about.

I read your post with interest until I got to that line. Come on, did you have to put that in? You do not know my political affiliation, you don't even know what kind of person I am or how I voice my opinions. So how can you make a generalization like that? Moving right along...

I suppose what I'm thinking is that lie, misinformation, etc. Whatever it was that got us into this war, people need to be held accountable. I agree that death is a risk of joining the army, but when our soldiers are sent to an unjustified war by people high up, those high up people should be held responsible.
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Turtle
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:10 am

Speaking of Clinton and any other Democrat, they too believed that WMD's were in Iraq.
 
Guest

RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting Turtle (Reply 14):
Speaking of Clinton and any other Democrat, they too believed that WMD's were in Iraq.

But the responsibility for this "oopsy" is on Bush. Where is your outrage now?

B
 
iakobos
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:22 am

Iraq was a target before 9/11.
This faithful date however hastened the implementation of the plans, the only questions raised were "what good reason to invoke", "how to guide US public opinion along the right path", and "when needed, what alternative reasons to use later on".

On the one hand, they knew the UN would not condone an attack, they knew France, Germany and others would stand in the way, they knew world opinion would generally be against the move, they knew they had to open their wallet to build up a so-called coalition, they knew the troops would be there for years not months, they reckoned justly that by the time the legitimacy of the "invasion" would have evaporated, the dust would have settled, hundreds of calendar pages been turned and the heath abated to standard ISO.

On the other hand they were certain they could count on the (yes, driven by fresh emotions and terribly uncritical) patriotism of their citizens in the aftermath of 9/11, find the money, vote the budgets, crush Saddam's dummy army, and have their feet and enterprises solidly planted in the Middle East.

Following the large-scale slandering of the UN, France and Germany, only to name those three, would anyone think that something along the lines of a "sorry" is due ?

Yes, they lied, nothing new under the sun when the leadership thinks that the ultimate motives are justified. (valid for every country's leadership of course)

You do not pay they to act as Cinderella but to lead the country.

If in business, the CEO lied to the shareholders what do you think would happen ?
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mt99
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting Turtle (Reply 14):
Speaking of Clinton and any other Democrat, they too believed that WMD's were in Iraq.

Did they believe that they were and "imminent threat"?

Did they stand before the UN with a powerpoint presentation?

Did they act?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 1):
Old news is so exciting.

Ditto, agreed.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Why are 1,500 of our soldiers dead, for what? Why are so many Americans dead? The reason we went to war, and this cannot be denied, was WMD.

You just brush it aside as old news, but these are people's lives we're talking about.

Not at all, I feel for the brothers and sisters in uniform that have paid the ultimate price. It's not that I brush it aside, it's that it's OLD news. And if YOU can't get past it, you have a problem. What needs to happen now, since we all know it's too damn late to change anything, is to get behind the soldiers that are still there (I didn't support the war, or Bush, or anything except the soldiers).

Quoting Biggles (Reply 5):
I will always remember Rummy's "They have WMD's , and we know exactly where there are" speech..

Dumsfeld should have been canned after Abu Ghraib. Check that: Dumsfeld should have been canned when he started preaching about doing this fight on the cheap with only two Divisions and a few Separate Brigades AND then FAILING miserably to have a plan in place after the "Combat Phase" of the operation. Dumsfeld is one of the worst things to happen to the DoD in a very long time. And I know - my office used to be 2E374 at the five sided funny farm. He should have listened to Gen Shinseki when he was told - repeatedly - "beware the 12 Division Strategy with a 10 Division Army". Alas, he did not. Loser.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 8):
In related news, the CIA has reportedly located a person that was surprised by this news

Duh . . .

Old news, lets move on.

[Edited 2005-04-27 02:08:46]
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tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Not at all, I feel for the brothers and sisters in uniform that have paid the ultimate price. It's not that I brush it aside, it's that it's OLD news. And if YOU can't get past it, you have a problem.

Duh, clearly I do to. My way of supporting the troops is to get the out of there. Our soldiers do a noble duty, but not when its fighting a war under false pretenses. 1,500 dead soldiers isn't old news, considering that our soldiers are still dying there.

I will not get past it, not until the soldiers come home. Every minute that the soldiers are in Iraq fighting a war that was started based on false pretenses, I will not get over it. Every day that this war is fought and the people that started this war (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Tenet, etc.) are still in power, I will not get over it. Every time a soldier dies in Iraq, I remember they're there because we were told that the WMD's were an imminent threat, and because of that I will not get over it.

The day that I get over that our leadership lied to us about war (willingly or not) is the day that I become a "fat, lazy American".
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Guest

RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
What needs to happen now, since we all know it's too damn late to change anything, is to get behind the soldiers that are still there

I disagree. I think what needs to happen now is the people responsible for this error need to be punished and removed from office. That's what SHOULD be happening now. I can't explain why it is not.

B
 
DeskPilot
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 16):
Following the large-scale slandering of the UN, France and Germany, only to name those three, would anyone think that something along the lines of a "sorry" is due ?

No way Lakobos - when there's a mistake, you just tell people to move on,or that's old news. Refer the various comments above.

Would you like Freedom Fries with that ?
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Falcon84
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:31 am

"I know those damned weapons are still there. I just know it!!"

Signed,

Dick Cheney
JetJack74
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ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 20):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
What needs to happen now, since we all know it's too damn late to change anything, is to get behind the soldiers that are still there

I disagree.

Let me get this straight . . . I suggest we get behind and support our troops and you disagree? Is that what you meant to say, you do NOT support our troops?

I don't disagree with the remainder of your post . . . . . .

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 20):
I think what needs to happen now is the people responsible for this error need to be punished and removed from office. That's what SHOULD be happening now. I can't explain why it is not.

. . . . but I want to make sure I heard you correctly in that you're NOT going to support our troops . . . it's not the TROOPS that are fault . . .
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N766UA
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
The reason we went to war, and this cannot be denied, was WMD.

The reason we know about. Whether it was touted or not, it's obvious that Iraq had considerable strategic importance in the global war on terror. We needed a foothold in the mid-east. Now, that's just one of my theories... but it makes perfect sense and I'm sure there's alot we don't know. Also, I think they had a perfectly valid reason to believe there were WMDs and unless we went in to be sure you wouldn't even be able to say "ha! told you so!" And besides, you can't fault one person for trusting our nation's top intelligence sources. If you're gunna blame someone blame the FBI, CIA, etc.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
Whether it was touted or not, it's obvious that Iraq had considerable strategic importance in the global war on terror. We needed a foothold in the mid-east.

I'm not convinced of that.

Don't get me wrong, I support our troops and the effort in Iraq, however . . . consider this. Had the US continued and completed, in shorter order - without an Iraqi Operation - the Afghanistan efforts the foothold would in fact already be there.

Strategically, we would/could have forces in Saudi Arabia (our friends - please read the sarcasm there) and in Afghanistan, as well as the Horn of Africa and Qatar. I think that's a foothold . . . just food for thought Patrick.
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DeskPilot
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
it's obvious that Iraq had considerable strategic importance in the global war on terror.

Care to explain this one ?
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
sacflyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:09 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
Hindsight is 20/20 There is nothing showing that anyone KNEW at the time of the invasion there were no WMDs. For there to be a LIE someone would have to KNOWINGLY mislead the nation. I am not convinced there was a lie.

Didn't that guy who used to be Secretary of State, go to the United Nations and give a BS briefing about WMDs in Iraq. Trust me, there was a knowing lie. I was practically waiting for Powell to ask for a definition of the word "is".
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
Falcon84
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 27):

Didn't that guy who used to be Secretary of State, go to the United Nations and give a BS briefing about WMDs in Iraq. Trust me, there was a knowing lie. I was practically waiting for Powell to ask for a definition of the word "is".

Uh, "that guy" was Colin Powell. Yes, he made a big speech to the UN laying out the case of WMD in Iraq, and to go to war over it. And no, I don't think it was a "knowing lie", as you put it. I'm one of the harshest critics of this Administration on this forum, and I see NOTHING that indicates that Bush was lying. What I DO see is that Bush took the worst-case scenario of the intel we had, and blew it out of proportion, and made that the basis of his decision to go to war.

As many Bush defenders point out-and they are correct-just about everyone with any name in Washington, from the names Clinton to Kerry to McCain to Delay to Bush, believed the intel. But, in the end, my point has always been, the buck stops with Mr. Bush.

Did he knowing lie? I do not think he did? Did I still disagree with his decision to go to war? Absolutely? Would I have had a little more respect for him when, after it was found out the WMD claim was wrong, that he didn't make up new, phoney excuse for the war? You bet.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 27):
Didn't that guy who used to be Secretary of State, go to the United Nations and give a BS briefing about WMDs in Iraq. Trust me, there was a knowing lie. I was practically waiting for Powell to ask for a definition of the word "is".

SacFlyer . . . Colin Powell would NOT and did NOT knowingly lie to the United Nations. Of that I can assure you. I have met the man, I have unlimited respect for the man. You obviously missed the news in the last week or two where Powell openely and adamantly declared his utter disdain for the exceptionally faulty and totally incorrect Intelligence he briefed the UN. Did you not see that? Did you not read and listen to reports of the ongoing 'battle' between then SecState Powell and current PotUS Bush and then NSA/now SecState (gag me) Condi Rice?

Better hurry and catch up on your recent history before you trash a man like Colin Powell.

Nuf Said.
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sacflyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:31 pm

Who cares about recent history? I am talking about a briefing that failed to convince me that we needed to go to war with Iraq over WMDs. Powell was there to make a case for invading a country and starting an unprovoked war. After Pearl Harbor, we got the "a day that will live in infamy" speech from FDR to justify a war.

Bush just jumped on Powell's coattails and rode his credibility all the way to Baghdad since he was the only one with any credibility in the Administration.

Did you see the news conference the other day where Bush actually said "Ecomony?" Guess we can add that to "Nucular."
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
Falcon84
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:34 pm

Sacflyer, even if what you say is true, it does not indicate, nor constitute a lie, on the part of Mr. Bush. If you don't think it made the case-and I did not think it did, either-that's one thing. But again, that does not mean a lie was told. I think Bush and Powell believed the intel.

There was a faux pas in the intel that was given; there was not a lie made on the part of the President.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:42 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 30):
Who cares about recent history? I am talking about a briefing that failed to convince me that we needed to go to war with Iraq over WMDs. Powell was there to make a case for invading a country and starting an unprovoked war.

OK, let me see if I can make this easier on you - because you've obviously missed the point, or are hell bent to leather to be negative where Colin Powell is concerned.

First recent history - ok, I'll expound on that . . . lets say History in the last 3-5 years. We'll 'declare' that RECENT history, for the sake of this discussion. OK. Now, when you do that, can you find the ability to expand you memory beyond the last week or so?

Powell in the last 3-5 years has disagreed on many occasions with the balance of the Administration.

Powell testified in front of the UN based on intelligence - provided by the same sources that Bush used - not anyone new or different.

Powell declared his negative advice for invading Iraq before it happened. Powell declared his negative advice for invading Iraq after it happened. Powell declared his negative advice for invading Iraq two weeks ago.

Powell publicly condemned his testimony in front of the UN based on abyssmal intelligence just two weeks ago.

Where the hell have you been?
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tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
And besides, you can't fault one person for trusting our nation's top intelligence sources.

What if that one person is the President? What if that one person gave the orders to go to war? What if that one person made the mistake of trusting faulty intelligence? Why should the people who lied to us, lied to the world, get away with it because it was an "honest mistake"? With so many people dead, doesn't that strike a chord at all?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
What I DO see is that Bush took the worst-case scenario of the intel we had, and blew it out of proportion, and made that the basis of his decision to go to war.

And shouldn't he be held responsible for it? Should he resign? Be impeached? The man drove his case for a war that caused the deaths of 1,500 soldiers, countless Iraqis, and who knows what else. Whether or not he knowingly lied to us, shouldn't he be held responsible? And not just him, but Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Tenet, etc. I will not agree with just holding the CIA and FBI responsible, the Bush Administration was solidly behind this and the major driving force.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
You obviously missed the news in the last week or two where Powell openely and adamantly declared his utter disdain for the exceptionally faulty and totally incorrect Intelligence he briefed the UN. Did you not see that? Did you not read and listen to reports of the ongoing 'battle' between then SecState Powell and current PotUS Bush and then NSA/now SecState (gag me) Condi Rice?

Very interesting, do you have news articles to that? Links? I'm interested in reading about it.
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tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:53 pm

Also, in Powell's case I think he made the right decision and resigned from his position. I disapprove of his actions before the war. He should have questioned the administration, questioned the intelligence, but he didn't and now he's no longer Secretary of State.
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FDXmech
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:58 pm

>>> We don't care that this administration lied to us about this war.<<<

By lying, do you mean Bush knew no WMD's existed?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:04 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
Very interesting, do you have news articles to that? Links? I'm interested in reading about it.

I could do a search, but you could as easily. It was network news. So ought to be fairly easy to find.

If memory serves me correctly, he was - for Colin Powell in public - angry. Visibly so. I met Powell, he is the genuine article.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 34):
Also, in Powell's case I think he made the right decision and resigned from his position.

Not his style. Powell was a soldier a long, long time. There are habits hard to break. You may privately disagree with your leadership, by, you will - by God in some cases - execute the mission. You may privately tell your leadership you disagree with them, and he did. But you will still execute the mission because the big picture says it would be best to execute the mission rather than throw it into turmoil by resigning and causing further friction.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
And besides, you can't fault one person for trusting our nation's top intelligence sources.

What if that one person is the President? What if that one person gave the orders to go to war? What if that one person made the mistake of trusting faulty intelligence? Why should the people who lied to us, lied to the world, get away with it because it was an "honest mistake"? With so many people dead, doesn't that strike a chord at all?

That, is of course, not the case. It would make it simpler for you if the only person to toss the blame flag at was PotUS, but that is simply not the case. Most all of Congress and the House concured, after testimony presented, based on (as it turns out pretty shitty) intelligence, that we had no options. This wasn't only done during the Bush administration . . . go back a few years and review the Clinton years as well. I'm NOT tossing Clinton's name in here to bash him, just making a quick point and moving on (I say that because as sure as I breathe, some will whine "What does Clinton have to do with this", fuckin' spare me that line, ok).

I hate to use the word "honest" mistake, but for layman's terms and to make it simple, a lot of folk made simple mistakes on this.

Every dead soldier strikes a chord TBar. Especially if you've been there. Do I blame Bush, or Kerry, or Kennedy, or McCain? No. And I reallllly depise Kennedy. I blame the intelligence community.
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sacflyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:06 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Powell declared his negative advice for invading Iraq before it happened. Powell declared his negative advice for invading Iraq after it happened. Powell declared his negative advice for invading Iraq two weeks ago.

What is your problem with what I said? There was no case for going to war with Iraq over WMDs. Powell went to the United Nations and made a case for war because the Administration wanted to go to war. This wasn't about "needing" to go to war, this was about "wanting" to go to war. They tried to sell the "needing" to go to war part, which was a lie.

Kennedy didn't want to blockade Cuba. He had to. He had the intelligence to back it up, and justify it. There was no question what had to be done. There was no other choice.

The intelligence that the Bush Administration had, on its own merits, did not prove the case for war. There were other options including doing nothing, but the Administration did not stop until it got what it wanted.
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
tbar220
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:24 pm

ANC,

I'm no fan of all the people that voted for this war. This however does not deny the fact that the driving force behind this war was still Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Tenet, etc. etc. Again, its the same people. It was their lies/misinformation (whatever you want to call it) that convinced those in congress to vote for the war (and even then not everybody did). Again it can be said that the misinformation from the CIA/FBI led them to do this, but ultimately I still believe that those responsible are the ones who pushed so hard for six months for this war.

Obviously it wasn't just Bush behind it... it was the Bush administration which includes all the people above that I noted already. However, it is his people, and as the president, the most powerful man in this country, he should hold responsibility for it.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 37):
What is your problem with what I said? There was no case for going to war with Iraq over WMDs. Powell went to the United Nations and made a case for war because the Administration wanted to go to war. This wasn't about "needing" to go to war, this was about "wanting" to go to war. They tried to sell the "needing" to go to war part, which was a lie.

Damn, you HAVE to be more dense than I thought, you answered your own question. What is my problem, the fact that you contend Colin Powell is a liar. Am I the only one reading that???????

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 37):
Kennedy

I'm talking about that fat ass, no account loser named TED Kennedy, not JFK, the once and former PotUS.

Are you confused? Geez, it just gets worse.

Maybe you should run down to Scato to UC Davis Medical Center and get some Prozac or something, then try this thread again. You've missed the boat on so much I'm not sure we're even talking about the same subject any longer.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
sacflyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:33 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
I'm talking about that fat ass, no account loser named TED Kennedy, not JFK, the once and former PotUS.

I wasn't responding to anything you said. I was referring to JFK because I wanted to.
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
sacflyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Damn, you HAVE to be more dense than I thought, you answered your own question. What is my problem, the fact that you contend Colin Powell is a liar. Am I the only one reading that???????

Yes, you are the only one reading that. When did I say that Colin Powell was a liar?

Here I'll get the quote for you.

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 27):
Didn't that guy who used to be Secretary of State, go to the United Nations and give a BS briefing about WMDs in Iraq. Trust me, there was a knowing lie. I was practically waiting for Powell to ask for a definition of the word "is".

Where does it say that I called Colin Powell personally a liar? I don't see it.
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 40):
I was referring to JFK because I wanted to.

Understood - my bad. Apologies . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
sacflyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:56 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
Sacflyer, even if what you say is true, it does not indicate, nor constitute a lie, on the part of Mr. Bush. If you don't think it made the case-and I did not think it did, either-that's one thing. But again, that does not mean a lie was told. I think Bush and Powell believed the intel.

The point is even if they believed the Intel, it still did not prove the case for war. The worst case scenario of the Intel did not prove the case for war. Bush just 'wanted' to go to war, and LIED by saying that we 'needed' to go to war. The intel did not at any time prove the "we need" to go to war scenario.
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 41):
Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 27):
Didn't that guy who used to be Secretary of State, go to the United Nations and give a BS briefing about WMDs in Iraq. Trust me, there was a knowing lie. I was practically waiting for Powell to ask for a definition of the word "is".

Where does it say that I called Colin Powell personally a liar? I don't see it

Here's your quote . . . and I'll highlight, and paste below the text, that interpreted perhaps because of the way you presented it, led me to believe you called Powell a liar. If that's not the case, so state.

Didn't that guy who used to be Secretary of State, go to the United Nations and give a BS briefing about WMDs in Iraq. Trust me, there was a knowing lie.

and

I was practically waiting for Powell to ask for a definition of the word "is".

Seemed pretty cut and dry to me . . .

Furthermore, I submit you must prove that anyone was lying. The intelligence sucked shit, granted, concur, agree, yes . . . was there a lie??? I don't think so. Even one of my very infamous, very liberal friends on this board doesn't think there was an intentional lie and he is not anywhere close to being Republican or Conservative, but he does have some sense . . . the fact is, SacFlyer, the intel sucked. Period.

I'd be very interested to see you prove, in text not your own, that there was intentional lying conducted by Powell - since he's the point of these posts between us - or from anyone else that received the intel. Kerry believed it. Kennedy (The fat ass one, not the former and great President) believed it, a whole host of honorable senators and congresspersons believed it.

So, prove the lie. Prove the lie or change your rhetoric. You're becoming a bore. You speak in circles. You've failed to make a point. You're beginning to border on the obnoxious. I fail to see why I need to explain your own words to you.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
CaptOveur
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 30):
Who cares about recent history?

This seems to be a common problem with people on the left side. They can't judge an event by the standards of the time.

Slavery is bad. So in the left wing world that means George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc are horrible, awful individuals who deserve ridicule in our schools just because they owned slaves. That one wrong throws out all the good they did.

The rest of us can look objectively and rationally at the time period and understand that slavery was accepted practice.

That is just one example, there are thousands, and more are being made every day of the neo-libs trying to judge another time by 2005 standards and trying to stir some outrage.

If someone has some sort of proof that shows there was a clear lie being made by Powell in front of the UN please bring it forward. I would be pissed over this war if I found I was lied to.

There is not one person on this message board who has never made bad decision because they did not have all the facts in when they had to make a decision. I feel that is exactly what went on. Bush took information that past Presidents had believed was true, many world leaders thought was true and Saddam did nothing to refute and Bush acted on it. Saddam jerked the UN around for 12 years costing us who knows how many billions of dollars enforcing the UN's BS rules and restrictions, which some of our "allies" were ignoring with under the table deals. Honestly, I had had enough of the whole situation and I am sure I wasn't alone. We could have kept forces policing the skies over Iraq for our lifetimes, we could have needed to keep troops stationed there for our lifetimes trying to keep an eye on what Saddam and his sons (the future rulers) were doing. The situation was not going to get better on its own. Some kind of action was going to need to be taken sooner or later.

Say Saddam had Chemical or Bio weapons and we didn't act. What would the cost be if someone set off a cannister of VX in Times Square? It would probably be a hell of a lot worse than 1,500 dead Americans. Say somene squirted smallpox over the World Series, game 7. what would the death toll have been from that? More than 1,500. Put yourself in the shoes of any world leader. You have to consider the cost of inaction and weigh it carefully against the cost of action. I feel that was done so I feel Bush did his job. Yes, he made a bad decision but I feel some good can come from it. An oppressive dictator was removed. Now his subjects have the opportunity to build a great nation if they decide to. They seem to be embracing democracy so far. Maybe some good will come out of the mistake. An Arab democracy could set a great example for some of the other armpits over there that are getting ripe for a revolution (Saudi).

Ok bring on the flames. I have had about enough of this second guessing a decision that is far in the past crap. Action was taken on the best information availible. Accept it and stop crying over the spilled milk.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Mir
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:05 pm

There is no question that people make mistakes. Some people make very costly mistakes. But people are human, and it happens.

It irritates me that the weapons were not found (though I kind of saw it coming), but what REALLY gets under my skin is that instead of owning up to their egregious error, the Bush administration tried to find a new rationale for going to war, after the first one didn't turn out to work so well. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. If they had just said "we screwed up, and we apologize to the country and the world for our error," I would have been happy to move forward and try and get on with rebuilding Iraq. But instead I have to hear about how "this is about the Iraqi people." Give me a break. The US doesn't care about the Iraqi people. If Bush had said "we need to go to war to free the Iraqi people," do you think that he would have gotten the support that he needed in Congress and in the public? Of course not.

I think that the real goal was getting a democracy in the Middle East. The general public wouldn't have been so warm to that idea either, so Bush took some intelligence, stretched it a ways, and then came up with the whole WMD thing. I won't say that he lied, but I do think that there was some misleading on the part of the administration.

Speaking of the administration, it also makes my skin crawl to know that the people who are responsible for the disaster that this war has turned out to be are either where they were before (Rumsfeld, Cheney) or promoted (Wolfowitz, Rice). Whatever happened to accountability?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
iakobos
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:40 pm

IMO Colin Powell is (one of) the only persons in this administration who can walk straight, be trusted and perhaps the only one on this earth who could come unhurt (as an individual) after a Powerpoint deception in front of the world.
That's also possibly the reason why LGW-Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter (Germany)">HE was the (sacrificed) messenger at the UN.

Despite what some tend(ed) to believe or were made to believe, only the US admin invoked the WMDs.
Paradoxically, they are also the ones who have (and by far) the most sophisticated intel capabilities, in orbit, in flight, at sea, and were able to get zillions of Terra Bytes of data accumulated over the lapse of at least 20 years.
Intelligence flaw ?? try to sell that to my dog.

The (US) media and through them the public has been tremendously well remote controlled. I did not read all relevant threads in this forum, but some hard facts have apparently never come to light in the US (and I must add: just barely surfaced in Europe).

This said, can someone tell me:
which other reason than the fear of WMDs would have brought US public opinion to follow and support and re-elect their leadership ?

The end justifies the means / La fin justifie les moyens
 
Falcon84
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
And shouldn't he be held responsible for it? Should he resign? Be impeached?

Believing the intel you are given-and remember, any Administration needs to TRUST the intel they are given, and acting on it, even if I don't believe personally that it was the correct action to take, is not an impeachable offense by any stratch, Tbar. We had our chance to hold him responsible in November of last year, but 59 million people were dumb enough to think he's doing an OK job. That's how you hold people responsible-thorugh the ballot box. And I don't see why he should resign. He made a decision, and, in the end, it was, I believe the wrong one, but so was LBJ acting on the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and no one asked him to resign, did they?

Quoting Sacflyer (Reply 43):
The point is even if they believed the Intel, it still did not prove the case for war.

It did not prove it to you and me, and a host of others. But obviously the it convinced the Administration. Of course, I DO feel the Administration went into the process WANTING to be convinced, and I absolutely feel they wanted this war from the moment Bush took the first oath of office. They were bound and determined to have a war in Iraq. I think that is crystal clear.
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Biggles
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RE: CIA’s Final Report: No WMD Found In Iraq

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:20 pm

ANCFlyer and Falcon84 , I haven't been here long , but I always enjoy reading your posts.I don't always agree with what you say,but here I agree with you 100% . And you are always honest , So I've added you both to my respected list.

Alan

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