TedTAce
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A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Sun May 01, 2005 9:25 pm

@212 posts, and it taking several moments to load on my decent internet connection this needs a new thread..
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ilikeyyc
Posts: 1326
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Sun May 01, 2005 11:43 pm

Just a copy and paste of my last post in the first thread

Quoting AA777 (Reply 207):
"The question is, do you HONESTLY believe that God, the beginning, the end, Alpha, Omega.... etc... will not be able to see that?"

Taken slightly out of context. I was using that to describe the Christian view that it is illogical for God to do such a thing and therefore gays aren't just created. The truth may be that gays are created, but I am slowly coming to accept it. Ted is right, I'm on my way, just not there yet.

To answer your question, the source of gayness can't be proven to the point like eye color is genetic. But I would believe that God would take this into consideration. I'm not perfect either, God is a better judge of people than I will ever be.

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 208):
"I find it just lovely when such straight, "Christian" people use their perception of the world to view my world."

I can't speak for those whom you have responded to, and I haven't read everything they have posted, so maybe in this context I am wrong. But as a Christian I see it as logical to apply (in any unfamiliar situation) what is already known to try to view an unfamiliar situation. Also, OzarkD9S asked his question to Christians, its only natural that they would post their Christian opinion.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 210):
"I haven't been following who among us here who have posted that supports "hateful and ignorant politicians" (which are most likely congressional Republicans, I would guess, and whom I often do not support). If you don't want our opinions, please contact the individual who initiated this thread, and ask that person to not ask our opinions."

I agree (except for the Republican bit).
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 214):
You'll notice that nobody who refuted my posts concerning Scripture

That's because a lot (maybe not most) of people outside the church don't CARE what the BIBLE and a bunch of STUPID men(church leaders) have to say. Our connection to God is our own, and we don't need a bunch of 2000 year old crap to cloud how we feel about God, and how we think God thinks about us.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 214):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 212):
Mod, Please archive this thread
You don't have to be a hothead, TedTAce.

Umm, I created this version of the thread so the people who aren't as lucky as I am wouldn't have to wait for the apocalypse to download the thread!!

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 215):
lawyer

That's it, I'm sure that your profession aside you are a fine upstanding citizen, and I applaud that. Don't get me entirely wrong, there are SOME cases where lawyers do good honorable work. I just abhor the SCUM sucking money hungry PI types who prey on the weak... like the church..
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TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 1):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 210):If you don't want our opinions

If it weren't for your opinions, and conversely mine, there would be no discussion.

Unless you are posting from work I think it's ironic that A) you took it to heart to leave this discussion based on that ludicrous statement B) the person who told you to go home didn't think that the likelihood of you posting in a forum like this from anyplace other then home is slim to none.
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AA777
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 209):

You had me up until this point.

...Ok, be the light of the world that doesnt HAVE to be described in the Bible... what does it matter? The Bible uses that metaphor, which I think is a good one, to describe a the effect of a persons good actions, as their Light.... If you throw my whole theory just because I used a biblical reference, then you are being a little hard-core.....I could have not used it and still gotten my point across...

-AA777
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 1):
which are most likely congressional Republicans

Careful with that.

Ever heard of Howard Dean?
...Robert ("Senator Sheets") Byrd?
......Any of the numerous black congress(wo)men who still think it's 1963?

Hate and ignorance go far beyond partisan lines.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
diamond
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 204):
I think I'm about done with this one, I've made my point.

No, you haven't.
Blank.
 
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PA110
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Allstarflyer
If you don't want our opinions,

That's not what I said, or intended. You can blather on ad nauseum about scripture and the bible. Those are your beliefs, not mine. I say enjoy your beliefs and do whatever it is you do to make you happy, but keep it within the confines of your home, family and church. When I say don't start imposing your beliefs on the rest of us. I'm referring to local PUBLIC school boards who are forced to teach creationism, or public libraries who are forced to remove certain books due to "community" pressure. Save that for parochial school and your own church rec center. Do not enforce your superstitions on the community at large.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
jasepl
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 209):
I think you are generalizing... How'd you like it if someone said 'they all love to take it up the butt'?

I did say 'some' people. There are plenty of people around who claim to have all the answers, yet their own lives are falling apart like you won't believe.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 217):
I can't speak for those whom you have responded to, and I haven't read everything they have posted, so maybe in this context I am wrong. But as a Christian I see it as logical to apply (in any unfamiliar situation) what is already known to try to view an unfamiliar situation. Also, OzarkD9S asked his question to Christians, its only natural that they would post their Christian opinion.

Fair enough. But this isn't always an unfamiliar situation for everyone concerned. It never ceases to amaze me how people will buy into every word that a book, which is at best part fiction, over believing the reality being played out in front of their eyes every day.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 204):
I think I'm about done with this one, I've made my point.

Hardly! You've been full of cop outs and evasions, but no answers.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 204):
There is no simple answer!

You're right about that. Of course there isn't. What I find incredible is that you would rather go by what is written in a book (that doesn't yet have a name) rather than even consider the reality of what actual people are telling you, honestly, about their own experiences.
 
PacificWestern
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 8):
You're right about that. Of course there isn't. What I find incredible is that you would rather go by what is written in a book (that doesn't yet have a name) rather than even consider the reality of what actual people are telling you, honestly, about their own experiences.

It would seem that his refusal to take the word of others is because he WANTS to believe what he has chose to believe.

There are people who will stand and argue at midnight that it is the sun in the sky and not the moon and this unfortunate git is one of them!
 
TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 221):
Why? We can gather all of the previous information more readily from this thread.

If you want to keep talking to yourself, that's your perrogative.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 4):
If you throw my whole theory just because I used a biblical reference, then you are being a little hard-core

You are correct.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 7):
I'm referring to local PUBLIC school boards who are forced to teach creationism, or public libraries who are forced to remove certain books due to "community" pressure. Save that for parochial school and your own church rec center. Do not enforce your superstitions on the community at large.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting PacificWestern (Reply 9):
There are people who will stand and argue at midnight that it is the sun in the sky and not the moon and this unfortunate git is one of them!

What's a git?

The problem with this statment is symantecs..The sun couldn't ever actually physically be in 'our' sky as it would burn the planet up in short order!!

The Sun is 'always' there, and the Earth is 'always' here, it's just which side the earth is presenting itself to the sun at any given time that makes us have days/nights. Sure it's night time here, and day time in Asia, but the moon is not always up at night!!
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N766UA
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 6):
No, you haven't.

Oh.... well... would you prefer I go on?  Big grin
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TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
would you prefer I go on?

Now that you have had a night to sleep on it...
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allstarflyer
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 10):
If you want to keep talking to yourself, that's your perrogative

Actually, it's my prerogative to enjoy the company of others, and, if perhaps I may be able, to speak eloquently and accurately in their presence.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 7):
Save that for parochial school and your own church rec center. Do not enforce your superstitions on the community at large

Very well. You'll also find that I've mentioned (prior to this request of yours) several times the necessity of proclaiming, not forcing, Scriptural principles. Others have done that here, but (should you actually check the content of my posts) you'll find that sentiment is not to be found, but only answers to questions. If that is forceful to you, then that's either testament to the power of the Scriptures, a conflict in any conscience you may have or a pre-fixed abhorrence of any disagreement with homosexuality, regardless of content and/or delivery from such a position - or perhaps it's a combination of any of the aforementioned. And, should I endorse any superstitious ideas, I'll know by your admonishment to not enforce those either.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 10):
What's a git

A "git", it seems, is someone whose "perrogative" is to incessantly claim that their arguement is superior. But I'm sure there are other colorful metaphors to describe such people - it's all a matter of "symantecs".  stirthepot 


When I return from my days off, maybe I'll check for more humor in "A Simple Question for Christians Part 3".  Wink

-R
Living the American Dream
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 13):
several times the necessity of proclaiming

Sounds like you are just enjoying your freedom of speech..last time I checked that's what this is all about.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 13):
it's all a matter of "symantecs".

Beauty!!
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allstarflyer
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 14):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 13):
several times the necessity of proclaiming

Sounds like you are just enjoying your freedom of speech..last time I checked that's what this is all about.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 13):
it's all a matter of "symantecs".

Beauty!!

Glad I didn't leave just yet - yeah, I wanted to see if there was a response. I cut a little hard on my last comment, but this response of yours I've appreciated the most.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
PacificWestern
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 13):
I'm sure there are other colorful metaphors to describe such people - it's all a matter of "symantecs".

The security and anti-virus people??? Or did you mean semantics?
 
N766UA
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 12):
Now that you have had a night to sleep on it...

Now that I've had a night to sleep on it I realize it's not worth it. I find it funny, though, that the title of the original thread is "A simple question for christians" yet when christians give christian responses they get flamed for it. Don't ask a question of a specific group if you don't like the responses you know you'll get! That said, I still didn't quote one bible verse, I dunno why I was brought up in that mess.
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TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17):
christians give christian responses they get flamed for it.

The Christian responses that I flamed were because they couldn't say (without quoting scripture) why it is their business to mess with lives like mine and my homosexual compatriots. None of it appeared to me to be independent thought as to why they should try to ban books, not support civil unions, etc... and most importantly NONE of the quotations/citations answered any questions.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17):
I still didn't quote one bible verse, I dunno why I was brought up in that mess.

Because you insisted that gay's weren't born that way..
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N766UA
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
Because you insisted that gay's weren't born that way

Yeah I know but I didn't bring the bible or anything like that into it. The mess I'm referring to is the "you bible thumping bastards" mess I don't think you were even part of.
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TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 19):
"you bible thumping bastards"

I'm thinking to dump this thread and start two more:
The First: "you bible thumping bastards"
The Second: Gay at birth??
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flybyguy
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 7):
That's not what I said, or intended. You can blather on ad nauseum about scripture and the bible. Those are your beliefs, not mine. I say enjoy your beliefs and do whatever it is you do to make you happy, but keep it within the confines of your home, family and church.

Indeed, yet what is it when Evolution it taught? We are imposing a scientific belief system upon youth as well. Evolution though logical cannot be guaranteed to be right, since like all of science, it is a human interpretation, simplification, and/or modeling of events, phenomena, or objects that occur naturally or un-naturally within the confines of our universe.

By any means, from a secular point of view, religion and science are probably one and the same, though one presents more power to mankind over the command of nature than the other. And THAT, my friend, is why people despise religion, because we must relinquish all the power we greedily harbor for ourselves to a Supreme Being.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
allstarflyer
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting PacificWestern (Reply 16):
The security and anti-virus people??? Or did you mean semantics?

I came back to work to list for a flight, saw this and couldn't pass it up. Look at the quotation marks around particular words (and the spelling of them). Just a little jab. Harmless.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
Klaus
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 9:43 am

Flybyguy: Indeed, yet what is it when Evolution it taught? We are imposing a scientific belief system upon youth as well. Evolution though logical cannot be guaranteed to be right, since like all of science, it is a human interpretation, simplification, and/or modeling of events, phenomena, or objects that occur naturally or un-naturally within the confines of our universe.

Who told you that nonsense?

The fundamental difference between religion and science is that the whole point of science is to objectify knowledge. It´s a set of rules for the optimization of load-bearing knowledge, to quote myself from another thread.

Whether anybody believes in anything has no effect whatsoever on the validity or the verifiability of scientific knowledge. The ultimate measure is always the consistency with the physical world.


Flybyguy: By any means, from a secular point of view, religion and science are probably one and the same, though one presents more power to mankind over the command of nature than the other. And THAT, my friend, is why people despise religion, because we must relinquish all the power we greedily harbor for ourselves to a Supreme Being.

The distrust of religion is born out of a long string of bad experiences with its absolutist claims and the automatically following intolerance and aggressive persecutions. Damnation of others cannot exist without superstition and/or prejudice.
 
PacificWestern
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
I came back to work to list for a flight, saw this and couldn't pass it up. Look at the quotation marks around particular words (and the spelling of them). Just a little jab. Harmless.

Oh good. Considering some of what you have posted in the past, I wasn't quite sure what to think.
 
gigneil
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 1):
I was using that to describe the Christian view that it is illogical for God to do such a thing and therefore gays aren't just created.

Again, I retort with there not being any possible logical explanation for mythical actions by the Christian god (see previous thread).

"his" actions can, however, be explained in terms that parallel severe psychological dysfunction, in which case it would make perfect sense that he'd create a caste of people specifically to torture them for his pleasure then send them to a fiery eternity to satistfy his ego.

Sad. Disturbing that any sane human being could possibly subscribe to such an ideal of existence.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
We are imposing a scientific belief system upon youth as well.

Science is not a belief, by definition. Science is the action of what can be proved or reasonably theorized based on the existence of evidence.

There is zero evidence to support the claim of any aspect of religion. None. It doesn't exist. Period.

N
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
We are imposing a scientific belief system upon youth as well. Evolution though logical cannot be guaranteed to be right

As a TOTAL absolute, NO. But we can prove what we have observed OVER and OVER and OVER again, where as religion is blind faith in something that man just believes to have happened and NEVER observed.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
it is a human interpretation, simplification, and/or modeling of events, phenomena, or objects that occur naturally or un-naturally within the confines of our universe.

Good Science is NEVER simplification, religion, yes, science no. GOOD scientific work requires excellent documentation and duplication of reproducible/observable events. Religion, 'God' just talks to "you" and it's true!!

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
religion and science are probably one and the same

ROFLMAO!!! Yeah just like witch craft and chemistry are the same.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
because we must relinquish all the power we greedily harbor for ourselves

ummm no.. Good scientists understand that no matter how positive they are when going into proof of theory that they are right, they know that they could be wrong, and blatantly proven so. How do you prove god wrong other then to point out the irrelevancy of the publications to reality.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
The ultimate measure is always the consistency with the physical world.

We ALL know how consistent religion is don't we?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
The distrust of religion is born out of a long string of bad experiences with its absolutist claims and the automatically following intolerance and aggressive persecutions. Damnation of others cannot exist without superstition and/or prejudice.

 checkmark 
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N1120A
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Ever heard of Howard Dean?

Howard Dean was governor of Vermont and signed into law the first statute approving Civil Unions in US history. Issue?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 222):
Quoting N766UA (Reply 105):
Personally, I disagree with the lifestyle...

Based on what? Seriously, I'm curious as to what drives someone to disagree with someone else's existence. What possible part could you even have an opinion on?

N766UA Disagree with yourself...until you walk a mile in a gay persons shoes...
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TedTAce
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Howard Dean was governor of Vermont and signed into law the first statute approving Civil Unions in US history. Issue?

You mean he did something that didn't make himself look totally maniacal? Holy $hit!!


Honestly I wish I had known this as I don't think I would have been as obtuse as I was in another thread about him.
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N1120A
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 29):
You mean he did something that didn't make himself look totally maniacal?

Honestly, the media and the RNC took one rally where he got loud on stage while rallying his supporters and blew it into something that ruined a likely winning campaign. That was one of the worst political lynchings I have ever seen.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 29):
Honestly I wish I had known this as I don't think I would have been as obtuse as I was in another thread about him.

Are you kidding me? You did not know this? I am not making fun of you, I am just really shocked that you would not have know about this as it was the biggest thing known about Dean when he first started campaigning, along with his vocal denouncing of the Iraq War.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
That was one of the worst political lynchings I have ever seen.

I hate to say it, but it was deserved. If this was the "good old days" (whatever they were) where a president with a pulse was something the general population desired, he'd have been BRILLIANT!! Unfortunately in this day in age, one Cowboy running for the whitehouse was/is enough. Passion that is reserved is inspiring, Dean went WAY over the line.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
along with his vocal denouncing of the Iraq War.

It's a requirement for being a democrat these days, if you aren't denouncing the Iraq War you are a traitor to your party; thank goodness I'm an independent!!!
If Dean had made it through Iowa, I'd have probably bothered to have researched him.
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ilikeyyc
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 25):
Again, I retort with there not being any possible logical explanation for mythical actions by the Christian god (see previous thread).

Nor can I offer any explanation for anything He has done, including creating this world in the first place. That is what faith is all about. The only rational explanation I can think of is that God simply said, "what if I do this and see what happens."

Yeah, God probably does have an ego, He is just like a kid with an ant farm. However, He also has a love for His creations. He sent His own Son to die as a sacrifice to absolve all sins. Why he did this, I don't know, see above paragraph. My point is that the torturing God you describe no longer exists, instead a very loving and forgiving one exists today.

I wouldn't worship a god who tortured me, so woe is the person who would do so. I, like most Christians, believe that God is loving and compassionate and believe in Him even if I can't explain his reasoning. That being said, you can believe in what you wish, even if you think I am crazy, because freedom of religion (or freedom from religion) is one of the many things that makes this country so great!
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 32):
He is just like a kid with an ant farm

Dude, you hit this one SQUARELY on the HEAD!!

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 32):
That being said, you can believe in what you wish, even if you think I am crazy, because freedom of religion (or freedom from religion) is one of the many things that makes this country so great!

This is the most responsible thing I have heard in a long time  Smile
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misbeehavin
Posts: 607
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 33):
Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 32):
He is just like a kid with an ant farm
Dude, you hit this one SQUARELY on the HEAD!!

Allow me to spew some Shakespeare:

As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods;
They kill us for their sport.
-- King Lear
 
N1120A
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 31):
Unfortunately in this day in age, one Cowboy running for the whitehouse was/is enough.

Dean is in no way a cowboy

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 31):
It's a requirement for being a democrat these days, if you aren't denouncing the Iraq War you are a traitor to your party; thank goodness I'm an independent!!!

Actually, Dean was one of the first of the more mainstrean Democrats to denounce what Bush was doing. He brought it back into the party's consciousness and opened the party's eyes to the opinions of its constituency.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TACAA320
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RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 12:49 pm

This is an interesting [old] article about gays and boys scouts. I can't find any evidence about if what was ruled by the US Supreme Court was or not reversed:

"
A divided U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday said the Boy Scouts of America have the constitutional right to block gays from becoming troop leaders.

The court ruled 5-4 that the New Jersey Supreme Court was wrong in forcing the Boy Scouts to accept James Dale, who was fired after the organization learned of his sexual orientation.

The ruling did not specifically give the Scouts permission to bar homosexual boys from membership, but its language left room for that interpretation.


Boy Scouts of America and Monmouth Council, et al., Petitioners v. James Dale



New Jersey Supreme Court decision (Rutgers)


Do you think the Boy Scouts should be allowed to ban gay members and troop leaders?


Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote in the majority opinion that Boy Scouts values are spelled out in the Scout Oath and Law, which require scouts to be "clean" and "morally straight."

"The Boy Scouts asserts that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the values embodied in the Scout Oath and Law," he wrote. "Dale's presence in the Boy Scouts would, at the very least, force the organization to send a message, both to the youth members and the world, that the Boy Scouts accepts homosexual conduct as a legitimate form of behavior."

Though homosexuality is becoming more socially acceptable, "this is scarcely an argument for denying First Amendment protection to those who refuse to accept these views," he wrote. "The First Amendment protects expression, be it of the popular variety or not."

Agreeing with Rehnquist were Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas.

Dissenting view
Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in the dissent that the Boy Scouts' exclusion of Dale was discriminatory and the New Jersey court correctly ordered Dale's reinstatement.


He also said the Boy Scouts ruled before Dale's 1990 dismissal that it is not the group's place to determine what is morally correct behavior. In 1993, the group said homosexuality is not acceptable, Stevens wrote. The Boy Scouts' views on the matter are "equivocal at best and incoherent at worst," Stevens wrote.

"Boy Scouts of America is simply silent on homosexuality. There is no shared goal or collective effort to foster a belief about homosexuality at all -- let alone one that is significantly burdened by admitting homosexuals," Stevens wrote. "BSA fails to show that it ever taught Scouts that homosexuality is not 'morally straight' or `clean.'"

Justices David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer agreed with Stevens.

Reaction to the ruling
The American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative advocacy group that filed a friend-of-the-court brief supporting the Boy Scouts, said the ruling "will have a dramatic impact on all private organizations -- including religious groups -- to define their own mission and set their own criteria for leadership."

The Human Rights Campaign, a gay-rights organization, called the ruling a "travesty of justice that may allow large, open membership groups to be above the law and evade state and local nondiscrimination laws."

The Dale saga
Dale wanted to become an adult leader of the local Boy Scouts after distinguishing himself as a member. He was admitted to Order of the Arrow honor camping society and awarded the Eagle Scout badge, Scouting's highest honor and one that only 3 percent of Scouts receive.

When he was fired as assistant Scout master of the Matawan, New Jersey, troop in 1990, Dale was 20.


The Supreme Court has ruled that James Dale can be barred from serving as a Boy Scout leader because he is gay

Now 29 and working in New York, he sued the Boy Scouts in 1992 after the Boy Scouts' Monmouth, New Jersey, council rejected his application for the adult leadership position and subsequently fired him. The Boy Scouts told him in writing that homosexuality was contrary to the organization's values. The Boy Scouts found out that Dale was gay after a newspaper article revealed that fact. Dale, as co-president of Rutgers University's Lesbian/Gay Alliance, gave a speech in July 1990, which was the subject of the article. Later that month, he received a dismissal letter from the Boy Scouts.

Dale sued under New Jersey's anti-discrimination law, which bars discrimination based on race, national origin or sexual orientation, among others, in places of "public accommodation."

Last year, the New Jersey Supreme Court held that the Boy Scouts illegally fired Dale and ordered the organization to reinstate him. The court ruled that the Boy Scouts, whose membership is vast and varied, is not just a private club that can set exclusionary membership rules.

In other words, the New Jersey high court rejected the Boy Scouts' arguments that it was a private group and therefore the anti-discrimination law does not apply in the case.

Boy Scouts' First Amendment arguments
The Boy Scouts appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which accepted the case on January 14 of this year and heard oral arguments on April 26, the last day for arguments this term. The ruling came on Wednesday, the last day of court opinions.

The Boy Scouts argued that their First Amendment free speech and freedom of association rights were violated by the New Jersey high court. The Boy Scouts insisted that it is up to them, not to any court, to decide who will be an adult Scout leader and who will not and who is an appropriate role model for younger Scouts and who is not.

The Boy Scouts have been sued many times before in state courts, but the organization has consistently won judgments that say it does not fall under state public accommodations laws, partly because it does not receive taxpayer money.

State courts in California, Connecticut, Oregon and Kansas have ruled in the Boy Scouts' favor in similar public-accommodation cases brought by girls, atheists, homosexuals and others. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit has ruled similarly.

Oral arguments before the Supreme Court
During oral arguments before the U.S. Supreme Court, George A. Davidson, a Boy Scouts attorney, argued that the Scouts were right in firing Dale because he "had created a reputation for himself" by publicizing his sexual preference and that his being gay hampered his ability to be a role model for Scouts.

Evan Wolfson, Dale's lawyer, argued that because the Boy Scouts are not specifically an "anti-gay organization," Dale's presence did not taint the group's message.

He added that Dale did not seek to use his position as a Scout leader to advocate homosexuality.

"For 12 years they said, 'You're perfect, just what we want, get involved, it's family,'" Dale said before the case was argued. "Then they found one small thing about who you are and kicked me out."
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 1:06 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 36):
This is an interesting [old] article about gays and boys scouts. I can't find any evidence about if what was ruled by the US Supreme Court was or not reversed:

WTF did you post that for?

Your views on the topic of the thread are well known and documented. Unsurprisingly, you have not had anything constructive to say in this thread or in v1.

Go away.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 37):
Go away.

Only if you are willing to do the same.

[Edited 2005-05-02 06:20:53]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 2:12 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 26):
But we can prove what we have observed OVER and OVER and OVER again, where as religion is blind faith in something that man just believes to have happened and NEVER observed.

Never observed is quite strong a phrase considering that much of the processes science has explained was never observed, but postulated to occur though experimentation.

Just like the existence of God, NO ONE can prove beyond a doubt that God does not exist. If you can offer proof I WILL renounce my faith without delay or trepidation... For what's the purpose of believing in the imaginary?

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 26):
Good Science is NEVER simplification, religion, yes, science no. GOOD scientific work requires excellent documentation and duplication of reproducible/observable events.



Science is NEVER simplification? If Science were never a simplification we'd still be scratching our heads about the way the universe works even now and have no idea how to begin our epistemological search. As an student engineer I use CFD software to approximate fluid flow through piping and ducts in experiments. Replicating all of the natural processes that occur in fluid pipe flow... especially turbulent fluid pipe flow, is difficult, if not impossible in a mathematical model. But as in many cases in science, close is good enough. Approximation is the norm in practical engineering.

And how is religion a simplification? I am a Christian and I profess my faith in a God who rules all the universe. Is that not the same as if I said I believe in the laws of physics which rule all the universe? We cannot deny that phenomenon that describe physics exists, but we can always wonder what is the purpose of it all. The universe, as it is, couldn't simply be a cosmic error, a mistake that simply works because it is observed to work. I feel that complexity is in the eye of the beholder.

To believe in God is to admit that we as humans can never be perfect and can never know the universe even if we studied it to the end of time. To believe in God is to admit personal broken-ness and to harbor the desire to uphold one communion between ourselves, the universe, and the Universal Creator. It is this commonality that is beyond human comprehension and in my eyes, the one true complexity.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 2:47 pm

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 32):
The only rational explanation I can think of is that God simply said, "what if I do this and see what happens."

...which in itself really isn't that rational, considering that Christians believe God to be omnipotent and unaffected by time-- ergo, he would've know all that'd happen before any of it began.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Mon May 02, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 40):
considering that Christians believe God to be omnipotent and unaffected by time-- ergo, he would've know all that'd happen before any of it began.

As you said, He is omnipotent, omnicent and there is no time for Him.

[Edited 2005-05-02 15:30:09]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 4:37 am

Thanks for the completely unnecessary echo.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 6:05 am

your welcome. Your welco... you...
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 36):
This is an interesting [old] article about gays and boys scouts. I can't find any evidence about if what was ruled by the US Supreme Court was or not reversed:

It was NOT!!

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 36):
The ruling did not specifically give the Scouts permission to bar homosexual boys from membership, but its language left room for that interpretation.

No, but it established that gay men could not be scout leaders. Do you want to know why??!? The Boy Scouts of America is a PRIVATE, (shouldn't be if is) Non government sponsored group. They could dis-allow blacks, Asians, Hispanics, and be equally as wrong in the eyes of the American public would label them in that case, but equally as justified in the eyes of Federal courts. The second BSA is 'officially' government sponsored is the second they loose the right to prevent scout leaders from being gay.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
considering that much of the processes science has explained was never observed

I disagree with the vague nature of this comment. If you want to talk about the theory of evolution as it relates to man, you are absolutely correct in stating that science has not proven this. If you want to talk about evolution in GENERAL, science has proven this over and over and over again. Why are race horses bred from other winning horses?

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
beyond a doubt that God does not exist

Science doesn't go out to prove what ISN'T occurring, it proves what DOES occur. Even if a theory is that Salmon always lay eggs in the exact spot that they are born in, and the research proves that it's only the same general vicinity, while the theory was proven NOT to be true, what was proven was something that did in deed happen. If your theory is that God doesn't exist, what proof is there that he does? Take away all earthly/man made references to God, and there is none!!

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
For what's the purpose of believing in the imaginary?

Crowd control? Belief that one day you will hit the lottery before lightning has struck you more then once!!

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
epistemological

Man, you made me look something up!!
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dicti...onary&va=epistemological&x=15&y=14
Main Entry: epis·te·mol·o·gy
Pronunciation: i-"pis-t&-'mä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek epistEmE knowledge, from epistanai to understand, know, from epi- + histanai to cause to stand -- more at STAND
: the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity

Now, in context:

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
If Science were never a simplification we'd still be scratching our heads about the way the universe works even now and have no idea how to begin our epistemological search.

We totally have an idea!! What do you call the last 400 years of science? A bunch of old men writing and making things up??? That sounds more like the bible then science to me. Sure, do we have 1/1000000000000000000th of an understanding of how it all works? Probably not. but I would rather that that itsy bitsy teeny weeny bit of PROVABLE knowledge over a library full of total BS speculation ANY day. I'm not saying science has all the answers perfect, or even close to all the answers, but most the answers it has, have been proven incontrovertible.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
use CFD software to approximate fluid flow through piping and ducts in experiments

That software was based on what? God's knowledge through the bible of how fluids work? I think some scientists sat down and made MANY MANY MANY MANY observations. I think they had a clue that in a limited sense they could control the dynamics, and SOMEWHAT predict things when they got further out of reach. I.E. airflow over a good wing moves relatively smoothly and in a consistent direction until it is in contact with the surface and until after it is past the 'controlling' wing area. Sure there are beautiful contrails that are predictable in the direction and nature of rotation, but when you get to a finer level things are just happening for reasons; we haven't pinned down yet, because the observation is ALWAYS inconsistent. But ultimately it was their ability to interpret/simplify that process into something most could use!!! The science itself was not easy, turning around and making software that duplicated it wasn't either, but obviously there was enough understanding that they could make it easier for you to understand.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
But as in many cases in science, close is good enough

This is a generality. If your once again talking about evolution versus what has been observed, you are right, but the only times I know that 'close is good enough' is when the limits of observable have been reached. As we don't have the missing link, we don't have the ability to observe with a level of finality the turning of close enough into incontrovertible fact.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
And how is religion a simplification? I am a Christian and I profess my faith in a God who rules all the universe. Is that not the same as if I said I believe in the laws of physics which rule all the universe?

NO. God is something man made up. Once again, without man there is no God, only the universe as we don't know it, the earth and all other creatures who some how manage to get by without 90% of the bullshit (not just talking god, but money and things) we do.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
we can always wonder what is the purpose of it all.

Or we can just say "Fu¢k it" and have a good time!! Good is close to God right?

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
couldn't simply be a cosmic error, a mistake that simply works because it is observed to work.

42

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
I feel that complexity is in the eye of the beholder.

Complexity is what it is. Tubular fluid dynamics is probably an easy subject for you, computers are an easy subject for me. There are a lot of people out there who think what we do is 'complicated'.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 39):
To believe in God is to admit that we as humans can never be perfect and can never know the universe even if we studied it to the end of time.

Good luck with that!!

I KNOW we will never have all the answers. Even if we escape earth's fate, and make it to other galaxies, I think we will eventually be sucked into a universe ending black hole that will explode into another big bang and the whole process will start from scratch. Will it ever be right? NO. it will just be what it is, the cyclical nature of things beginning and ending endlessly.
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TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 11:19 am

I was critized because I post that sentence from the U.S. Supreme Court.

I put it in here, just to show how big is the spectrum of gay rights specifically in the U.S. and around the world.

I'm not homophofobic, but I always try to see a problem from all perspectives.

If you read post 37, you'll see:

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 37):
Go away.

As well as

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 37):

WTF did you post that for?

Since we all in here have the same right to express our own opinions, I don't have to ask [in this case Misbeehaving], how, where or when to post mine.

Once again, if Ozark doesn't find an answer to his original question by know, probably he will never does [at least here].

Please read this >>>>>>>> http://www.stjosephsmen.com/letters/odowd_principal.htm

[Edited 2005-05-03 04:24:45]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 45):
Please read this >>>>>>>>

From the above link:
"to fight the spiritually and medically deadly disease of homosexuality in your school and community"
Spewing this kind of ignorant hate is what's getting you in trouble. I don't mind, because it keeps the conversation going, but if you expect roses for Valentine's you have another thing comming!!
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TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 46):
Spewing this kind of ignorant hate is what's getting you in trouble. I don't mind, because it keeps the conversation going, but if you expect roses for Valentine's you have another thing comming!!

JAJAJA

I didn't write it. Not even share the content.

Just wait for comments.

Thanks Ted.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
bezoar
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 4:47 am

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
God is something man made up. Once again, without man there is no God...

Care to share your sources?  duck 
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
lekohawk
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:33 pm

RE: A Simple Question For Christians Part 2

Tue May 03, 2005 6:42 pm

I highly doubt that "God" gives a single shit about what I do in my bedroom during the miniscule 80 years I intend to be alive, which on the whole stretch of the universe is completely meaningless.

What reason would this "God" have for caring? Why are we, inferior creatures that you all claim we are, so important? I can only surmise it is because of our own arrogance. Either that, or you're all making this God stuff up as a reason to cover your ass when you do anything wrong. "Oh, it's OK, I'm allowed to do whatever I want so long as I repent for it. I can still feel OK about backstabbing my friends, swearing, hating what I do not understand, cheating on my spouse, and perhaps even a little mass-murder, just for kicks"

Don't go telling me "God" hasn't been used as an excuse or an easy out for any or all of the above, I'm happy to quote examples for any of those you can't come up with examples for yourself.

Relative to religion, science has rarely been used as an excuse, or cop out, for any of that. Good science (I said GOOD science... not the travesty that is organizations like The Family Research Council, NARTH, and the work of Dr. Paul Cameron, all three of whom have been condemned by mainstream scientific organizations) supports community, honesty, ethics, and the search for truth... especially the truth relating to things we do not yet understand... and many times even the truth relating to things that scare the shit out of us. Science, unlike religion, does not claim to have all the answers. Science sends us forward... demanding more answers. Religion stagnates us. It says, "This is all you're supposed to know about the universe in one or two books." Science, on the other hand, has amassed vast collections of volumes. Given the scale of the universe, I'm somewhat hesitant to believe one or two books is anywhere near enough... although I also doubt that the entire world collection of science on paper is anywhere near enough either.

They say an airplane makes no money for its owner while sitting at the gate. Think about that the next time you're sitting in church hearing the same sermon quoting the same Bible passages for the umpteenth time instead of out living life, meeting new people, and learning new things.
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.

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