TWFirst
Topic Author
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More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 4:41 am

http://www.startribune.com/stories/389/5394417.html

To summarize: The scientific evidence showing biological differences between gay and straight humans continues to mount.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 4:46 am

Is it no wonder that I prefer the scent of cheap aftershave on some sweaty jock than Chanel No. 5 on some bimbo?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2565
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 4:47 am

TWFirst, I don't quite get what you're saying. Is it gay or straight humans that "continue to mount"?

 Smile
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting TWFirst (Thread starter):
The scientific evidence showing biological differences between gay and straight humans continues to mount.

I imagine it's still not conclusive though :|
I can't wait until it's proven beyond a REASONABLE doubt so we can prove that it's not just a sinners or choice thing, and it would irrevocably be considered a physical thing so there couldn't be any more LEGAL prejudice. GO SCIENCE!!!
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TedTAce
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 2):
continue to mount

Hu hu hu... he said 'mount'
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ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I can't wait until it's proven beyond a REASONABLE doubt so we can prove that it's not just a sinners or choice thing

....not that that would accomplish much of anything in the eyes of religion.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
and it would irrevocably be considered a physical thing so there couldn't be any more LEGAL prejudice.

Hopefully, agreed.

However, then comes the following issue: could it be considered a defect?

Plenty of people, myself included, are more than willing to abort a fetus with a "defect" rather than bring it into the world for a lifetime of "suffering" (relative to whatever you believe that to constitute)..... so how long before that happens to babies with proven predisposition to homosexuality?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Logan22L
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I can't wait until it's proven beyond a REASONABLE doubt so we can prove that it's not just a sinners or choice thing, and it would irrevocably be considered a physical thing so there couldn't be any more LEGAL prejudice. GO SCIENCE!!!

Unfortunately, the neocons who you have to worry about do not believe in science. Even if they do accept some genetic pre-disposition, they'll probably push stem cell research in an attempt to eradicate this evil as they see it. Of course the apparent contradiction between genetic-dependent gender preference and Darwinian evolution will be an interestin dynamic.

My point: no matter how much science tells them, they'll find some way to warp it.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
jaysit
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:08 am

However, then comes the following issue: could it be considered a defect?

It most certainly could.

If evolutionary biology has created us to procreate, then clearly a predisposition against an attraction to the opposite sex may be construed as an evolutionary defect.

But then from an evolutionary standpoint, fat thighs and poor eyesight are also evolutionary defects. With either, its doubtful if you could evade the hungry leer of a sabre toothed tiger.

In any case, at some point society decided that it would not punish the slow-footed or the poor-sighted. These arose as a result of civil responses to rational scientific beliefs.

Ditto for gay individuals, I hope.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 6):
Of course the apparent contradiction between genetic-dependent gender preference and Darwinian evolution will be an interestin dynamic.

To a degree, yes....

...but the combo of techology & culture have taken humanity so far off the course of natural selection that there should really be no surprise whatsoever at the continued prevalence of homosexuality (as well as various other "conditions") there within.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:12 am

Any response from the Christian Right yet regarding this event?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
But then from an evolutionary standpoint, fat thighs and poor eyesight are also evolutionary defects. With either, its doubtful if you could evade the hungry leer of a sabre toothed tiger.

Agreed... my point in the above post exactly.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
In any case, at some point society decided that it would not punish the slow-footed or the poor-sighted. These arose as a result of civil responses to rational scientific beliefs.

Ditto for gay individuals, I hope.

At some point, yes.... though no one (other than religious fanatics and Dr. Laura) is going to chastize parents who decide to abort a Downs Syndrome fetus, or one who'd otherwise be born sans an extremity or two.

Who's to say society won't feel the same way about aborting some "sodomite"-to-be?  Sad
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jaysit
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:16 am

...but the combo of techology & culture have taken humanity so far off the course of natural selection that there should really be no surprise whatsoever at the continued prevalence of homosexuality (as well as various other "conditions") there within.

But we're also assuming here that homosexuality is the result of one or two genes. In reality it could be a multi-genetic event, where even the absence of one or more triggers could easily be substituted by other genetic triggers.

Any response from the Christian Right yet regarding this event?

They're too busy trying to weed out the 'mos from the ranks by making them sniff Pat Robertson and checking for boners.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Logan22L
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Any response from the Christian Right yet regarding this event?

 hissyfit  Angry  hissyfit  Angry  hissyfit  Angry  hissyfit  Angry  hissyfit  Angry

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
However, then comes the following issue: could it be considered a defect?

Plenty of people, myself included, are more than willing to abort a fetus with a "defect" rather than bring it into the world for a lifetime of "suffering" (relative to whatever you believe that to constitute)..... so how long before that happens to babies with proven predisposition to homosexuality?

If it comes to this, I don't see much hope for our species.............

What about the real scurges of humanity? Like trying to find a cure for cancer, HIV, MS, etc.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
jcs17
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:21 am

I don't understand how this "biological evidence." I'm not saying the study isn't true, but like one person was quoted as in one report, "Humans are terrible test subjects." Exactly. Humans are able to be conditioned, yes, just like Pavlov's dog. Just because a gay guy is aroused by the scent of a pheromone in male sweat does not mean that he has not been conditioned to do so. Listen, before you shoot the messenger, understand that I really don't care one way or another.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:21 am

In biblical text, especially in the new testament, it's made clear that it is the duty of Christians to treat every individual equally as they would themselves. That's where the reactionaries fall short in their theological argument.


-SSTjumbo, a Catholic and political libertarian
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Logan22L
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting SSTjumbo (Reply 15):
In biblical text, especially in the new testament, it's made clear that it is the duty of Christians to treat every individual equally as they would themselves. That's where the reactionaries fall short in their theological argument.

Thank God someone gets it.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
jaysit
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:29 am

Just because a gay guy is aroused by the scent of a pheromone in male sweat does not mean that he has not been conditioned to do so.

How would a gay man be conditioned to be aroused by a male pheromone especially in a society that mandates differently?

The scents of these pheromones are very subtle. That's why the responses were measured by electrical impulses in the brain, and not by verbal responses.

but like one person was quoted as in one report, "Humans are terrible test subjects."

And that's why every single biomedical study involves more subjects than necessary to allow for statistical analysis.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 13):
If it comes to this, I don't see much hope for our species

..."if it comes to this"? We've long-sine been there.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
How would a gay man be conditioned to be aroused by a male pheromone especially in a society that mandates differently?

As much as I hate to take JCS' side (as broad as it may be) in anything; he does indeed raise a significant point:

Chicken or Egg situation-- does attraction to men cause gay guys' brains to react favorably to male hormones/pheromones... or does favorable neural reaction to such stimulants cause gay guys' attraction to men?

Also, perhaps you could possibly self-condition, even subconsciously.

Really no evidence (at this point, that we the public are privy to) to suggest that one couldn't, and plenty to suggest that one could.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
TedTAce
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:50 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
However, then comes the following issue: could it be considered a defect?

Absolutely, just like down syndrome and other forms of developmental disability, hey we might even 'HAVE' to make 'gay parking' how about that??

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
so how long before that happens to babies with proven predisposition to homosexuality?

Good question. My un-likeable answer is the following: who cares? An aborted fetus is an aborted fetus.. it's one less resource consumer on the planet as far as I'm concerned. People terminate fetuses for truly lessor reasons (such as birth control) why should anyone care if someone terminates a down syndrome fetus versus a gay fetus?

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 6):
My point: no matter how much science tells them, they'll find some way to warp it.

Yeah, but in this country they will not have LEGAL ground to stand on AT ALL!!

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 13):
If it comes to this, I don't see much hope for our species.............

You are the optimist aren't you? I think we are doomed anyway... I just want to see great grandkids, then the world can end as far as I care.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 13):
What about the real scurges of humanity? Like trying to find a cure for cancer, HIV, MS, etc.

ROFLMAO?!?!? What about the scourage of religious fervor/persecution? How many people has "God" killed? 100's of millions? Billions? I think so, yes Billions, (targeted to religious zealots) have a nice day, go pray that my soul is saved from nothing..

[Edited 2005-05-10 22:53:14]
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TWFirst
Topic Author
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 19):
hey we might even 'HAVE' to make 'gay parking' how about that??

Gay parking would be cool.



And yes MBMBOS, Ms. Grammar agrees with you.... the more correct version of my original sentence should be:

"Scientific evidence continues to mount showing biological differences between gay and straight humans."
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
mbmbos
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:57 am

Hey, TWFirst, I'll do anything to make a bawdy joke!
 
TWFirst
Topic Author
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 5:59 am

Hey, MBMBOS... that's why you're a man after my own heart.  Big grin
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
gigneil
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
If evolutionary biology has created us to procreate, then clearly a predisposition against an attraction to the opposite sex may be construed as an evolutionary defect.

It could, of course, be a precise evolutionary action to prevent overpopulation.

N
 
TWFirst
Topic Author
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
It could, of course, be a precise evolutionary action to prevent overpopulation.

That's always been my theory, and why I view lesbians using turkey basters to have kids to be against nature.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
jasepl
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):
That's always been my theory, and why I view lesbians using turkey basters to have kids to be against nature.

ROFL!

I'm still waiting for some "scientific evidence" to declare that homosexuality is indeed natural, because it has been observed in humans.  Yeah sure
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 25):
I'm still waiting for some "scientific evidence" to declare that homosexuality is indeed natural, because it has been observed in humans.

...huh?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jaysit
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:34 am

It could, of course, be a precise evolutionary action to prevent overpopulation.

Exactly.
Or a precise evolutionary action to prevent the propagation of another linked, yet by-now-harmless genetic defect.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Logan22L
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 26):
...huh?

I think Jase was simply making the observation that human beings are fucked up.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
TedTAce
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 28):
human beings are fucked up.

 checkmark 
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jasepl
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 28):
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 26):
...huh?

I think Jase was simply making the observation that human beings are fucked up.

Bingo John!

First, homosexuality isn’t natural “because animals don’t do it.” Then, when it’s pointed out that yes, animals certainly do, then it's “well, people aren’t animals!”

For some reason I can't fathom, homosexuality matters to the most random people. Unless they're interested, I'd say that's fucked up.
 
Klaus
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 7:10 am

By the way: There´s been provisional evidence from a recent study that the same genetic factor which at least contributes to homosexuality in men also contributes to enhanced fertility in women. Which would rather probably mean that evolution may have "lived with" the former to preserve the latter...

The principles of evolution do not work out nearly as simply as is often assumed...
 
DC10GUY
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 10:49 am

I think that story proves that homosexuality is a birth defect.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
TedTAce
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Wed May 11, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 32):
I think that story proves that homosexuality is a birth defect.

Damn!!! Can I have no sense of tact for $1,000 Alex?
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TWFirst
Topic Author
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 32):
I think that story proves that homosexuality is a birth defect.

OK... let's say it is, DC10GUY. Do we legally discriminate against those with birth defects? NO. In fact, we make laws to protect the handicapped. Is it socially acceptable or Christ-like to make fun of those with birth defects... ridicule them... call them hateful names? NO. So, whether you do consider it a "birth defect", or an evolutionary advancement to prevent overpopulation or as a means of selective breeding, OR, simply a natural variation in the species.... the point is that gay people should not be legally discriminated against, and should be treated with respect and dignity.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
fspilot747
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 3:33 am

We used to breed rabbits back home. Those things used to fuck anything. I used to see the males go at each other with fury.

That was enough proof for me!
 
FDXmech
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:01 am

>>>More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality<<<

Good thing there's evidence. Did you have any doubts till now?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
TWFirst
Topic Author
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 36):
Did you have any doubts till now?

I certainly didn't have doubts.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
flybyguy
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 34):
So, whether you do consider it a "birth defect", or an evolutionary advancement to prevent overpopulation or as a means of selective breeding,

I doubt the purpose of homosexuality is to prevent overpopulation. Homosexuality has probably been an affliction of human kind since the Fall. But still, homosexuals have always remained as a minority in history's population. Homosexuality has to reach to levels of 40% of the population for the "population control" argument to hold.

Quoting SSTjumbo (Reply 15):
In biblical text, especially in the new testament, it's made clear that it is the duty of Christians to treat every individual equally as they would themselves.

Homosexuality is a terrible affliction that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy, however, I have come to know at least one gay person since my entrance to University. Unfortunately, before that, I was told and believed that being gay was a lifestyle choice like polygamy and incest. But indeed it was made known to me that like heterosexuals, gays cannot change their orientation (they would if they could because no-one wishes to be on the fringes of society) Many gay people are good people who wish to be treated fairly in society and I support most any measure to achieve that end.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
gigneil
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
Homosexuality is a terrible affliction that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy,

I thought that when i was 12.

But now I would never, ever want to be straight.

N
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:45 am

Right, next thing we know homosexuality will be a "physical defect" and we'll be labeled as handicap or "challenged".

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Plenty of people, myself included, are more than willing to abort a fetus with a "defect" rather than bring it into the world for a lifetime of "suffering" (relative to whatever you believe that to constitute)..... so how long before that happens to babies with proven predisposition to homosexuality?

Excellent point. While I don't agree with you on aborting a fetus because of a defect, I could DEFINETLY see this occuring if homosexuality turns out to be a genetic defect that can be detected before birth. Very scary situation.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
jaysit
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:47 am

Homosexuality is a terrible affliction that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy...

I'm with Gigneil on that one.
I'm very content and happy being gay.
Frankly, the mere thought of being a straight man is completely alien to me. It seems perfectly odd. Just don't quite get it, but that's the way at least 95% of all humans are.
So be it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
FDXmech
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
Homosexuality is a terrible affliction that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy,

I bet the women you know consider your heterosexuality a terrible affliction. Or so I've heard.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
TWFirst
Topic Author
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
Homosexuality has to reach to levels of 40% of the population for the "population control" argument to hold.

Ummm... no.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
Homosexuality is a terrible affliction that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy, however, I have come to know at least one gay person since my entrance to University.

How could you possibly "not wish something upon your worst enemy" that you haven't experienced... and can't experience because you're "straight"? Your post is so illogical... yet so humorous... yet so sad...

You have my pity.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
Homosexuality is a terrible affliction that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy

Will wholeheartedly agree with you there.........

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 39):
But now I would never, ever want to be straight.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 41):
Frankly, the mere thought of being a straight man is completely alien to me. It seems perfectly odd. Just don't quite get it

.......and yet, I also empathize with these two here as well.




Always have resented the orientation that I was given... but have sacrificed so much to come to terms with it, and like/love myself and others for what we are. Then again, women (as a gender) mean nothing to me other than prenatal incubation units, and I couldn't possibly fathom the concept of being sexually attracted to them. Complex situation really.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jaysit
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 7:53 am

I think that at some point in our life we all despaired our sexuality.

Given society's obsession with heterosexuality as normative, and the taunts (perceived and real) against homosexuals, many of us may have attempted a closeted existence or expressed a desire to be straight.

However, not only is it impossible (sorry, you gay conversion freaks, it IS impossible), but foolish to be anything that you are not. So you embrace who you are, and learn to love life.

Would I wish being gay on anyone? No more than I would wish them being straight. Both are perfectly normal.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
FDXmech
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 45):
think that at some point in our life we all despaired our sexuality.

Then you progress and despair a lack of sex  Smile
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 18):
If it comes to this, I don't see much hope for our species

..."if it comes to this"? We've long-sine been there.

You misunderstood. I was referring to the statement of lowering ourselves to aborting babies if it is determined that it will be gay.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 19):
What about the real scurges of humanity? Like trying to find a cure for cancer, HIV, MS, etc.

ROFLMAO?!?!? What about the scourage of religious fervor/persecution? How many people has "God" killed? 100's of millions? Billions? I think so, yes Billions, (targeted to religious zealots) have a nice day, go pray that my soul is saved from nothing..

Sorry, you also misunderstood. I guess I need to be a little clearer. I was referring to the fact that all this energy could be spent on something more productive instead of finding out if one gay. Hope that came out better. Buy the way, I'm Catholic and agree with your statement 110%.

I think I heard somewhere a quote stating - all men are created equal? It's obvious that everyone didn't get that memo.

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
TedTAce
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 47):
I was referring to the fact that all this energy could be spent on something more productive instead of finding out if one gay.

In Principal, I agree. However; given my outlook on humans long term viability, I don't know if ANY of this matters.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: More Biological Evidence For Homosexuality

Thu May 12, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 48):
In Principal, I agree. However; given my outlook on humans long term viability, I don't know if ANY of this matters.

Yea, and that sucks.

Take care.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.

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