nycflyer
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Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:41 am

People have touched on this question in a few other threads in the past, but I've never understood why gas is so much cheaper in the U.S. compared to Europe. Anyone have exact figures? Is it more than twice as expensive in Europe? Why is this? It's the same oil companies, same gas.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:43 am

Taxes I would assume. In Germany they pay 73% taxes/litre where as in Canada we only pay 43%. I'm sure there are other factors as well, depending you're region.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Sabena332
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:48 am

Yes, this ridiculous high taxes are the reason. As ACDC8 already wrote in reply #1, in Germany we have to pay over 70 Cent taxes per liter.

And when you think that gas is cheap in the USA, you should go to Dubai. I never saw such incredible low gas prices in my life, so a taxi ride there cost you almost nothing.

Patrick
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aloges
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:58 am

Personally, I can't say I'm too sad about the high gas prices. I use public transport all the time, so of course the problem of paying for gas doesn't arise. The high prices do however reduce the joyriding and post box runs people do in their cars, which is a good thing. Sure you're all entitled to go wherever you want in your cars, gas-guzzler or not, but I think it's just plain stupid to cruise through town with your stereo all pumped up for nothing but looks.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 3):
I can't say I'm too sad about the high gas prices. I use public transport all the time,

Thing is though, high fuel prices affects all modes of transport, public and private. As well as heating/cooling your home. Not to mention industry is also hurt.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 3):
Personally, I can't say I'm too sad about the high gas prices. I use public transport all the time, so of course the problem of paying for gas doesn't arise.

That may be true, but how many times has Deutsche Bahn jacked up their fares in the last couple of years? Especially the short commutes.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Klaus
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:43 am

FDXMECH: Thing is though, high fuel prices affects all modes of transport, public and private.

The less the more effective they are. And public transportation is usually a lot more effective than a single person driving a big car.


FDXMECH: As well as heating/cooling your home.

Taxation is different for that. Which is why heating oil is tainted with a red colour - relatively easy to check if somebody is driving his diesel car with it...


FDXMECH: Not to mention industry is also hurt.

Ditto, plus there are partial subsidies for compensation.


Overall the high prices have been one of the driving factors for the substantial progress in efficient technologies coming from europe, as well as renewable energy technology.

It´s not always pleasant, but necessary.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:08 am

"Overall the high prices have been one of the driving factors for the substantial progress in efficient technologies coming from europe, as well as renewable energy technology.
"

And sluggish growth/high unemployment in Europe as well...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aloges
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 4):
Thing is though, high fuel prices affects all modes of transport, public and private.

Well, you're of course correct. However, the price of that semester ticket will rise €10 each semester for the next five semesters, which isn't pretty but still dozens of times cheaper than owning and driving a car.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 4):
As well as heating/cooling your home.

LOL... didn't even think of that! My rent includes heating and water (and cable TV, for that matter) and the part about increases of the heating bill is nowhere near worrying. Big grin
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
aloges
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
And sluggish growth/high unemployment in Europe as well...

Sorry, but that's incorrect. The British are paying high prices for gas, too, and enjoying a steadily growing economy.

The high additional cost of labour is a more important problem in Germany, as is the overwhelming bureaucracy keeping many people from running succesful small businesses.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:17 am

MaverickM11: And sluggish growth/high unemployment in Europe as well...

Subsidizing oil consumption is obviously not a viable long-term strategy either, especially when you consider the ecological and military implications with their resulting costs and damages.

You can pay now and invest in replacement strategies or you can pay a lot more later when you have to import new technologies from abroad...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 4):
As well as heating/cooling your home.

Houses here tend to be quite well insulated (double glazed windows, rock wool / fibre glass insulation on the walls), also the boilers are usually quite efficient modern designs. Then alternative energy sources, like using the heat of sun light or geothermal energy are becoming more popular for keeping the houses warm. A friend had a 200 mtre hole drilled in his garden. He pumps water down, which comes up much warmer. The heat gets concentrated with a heat pump (works a bit like a refrigerator) and is used to keep his house warm in winter and to heat water for bathing. He didn´t have to buy oil since 6 years and the small amount of electricity the system uses for pumping is neglegible.

Cooling houses by air conditioning systems is not very much used around here, even though it can get quite warm in summer (up to 40°C or well into the 100°F). We rather live with the heat and enjoy it.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:05 am

"The British are paying high prices for gas, too, and enjoying a steadily growing economy."

It would be steadily growing MORE if its life blood was not as highly taxed.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aloges
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
It would be steadily growing MORE if its life blood was not as highly taxed.

That's an automatism you'll have to prove in case you want me to believe it.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
Houses here tend to be quite well insulated (double glazed windows, rock wool / fibre glass insulation on the walls), also the boilers are usually quite efficient modern designs.

Same over here.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
Cooling houses by air conditioning systems is not very much used around here, even though it can get quite warm in summer (up to 40°C or well into the 100°F). We rather live with the heat and enjoy it.

I think it gets quite a bit hotter with very high humidity here as compared to Germany.
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ltbewr
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 11:43 am

The reason for gasoline being so much more expensive in Europe vs. the USA is Taxation. Current exchange rates, fewer competitive companies, less pressure on price competition all add to the difference too. In the USA, at $0.50 - 0.70 a liter ($2.00 - 2.80/US Gal., prices vary by state due to transportation, state taxes, regionalized less polluting fuel blends) vs. $1.20-1.50/liter ($4.40-5.90/US Gal. in Western Europe. With current unfavorable exchange, your talking about taxation about 3 times higher.
The history of much higher taxation on gasoline (or petrol for you Brits) in Western Europe goes back to just after WWII. Times were tough in Europe. They were in massive need to rebuild after the war. Almost all of Western Europe's oil came from the Middle East and even from the USA then. You needed to hold back demand for oil and hense exporting of money. For those whom know your Post-WWII Euro economic history, you probably recall of the UK's 'export or die' policies, to hold back goods from their citizens (like cars and gas for them), ration and activily conserve oil demand so they could export more to other countries, including the USA, and get income or goods needed from the USA and other countries to recover from the war.
Over the years, the Suez crises of the mid-1950's, led to rationing of fuel in Europe then. The 1973-74 oil crises led to the doubling and tripiling of barrel prices from USD $2.50/BBL to about $5.50 - 6.00/BBL, adding to the need to reduce imports of oil and export of money. Over the years, increasing social services needs like medical care, pensions and welfare also added to the demands for more tax income for governments and raising taxes on gasoline like a 'sin tax' to conserve the export of money and hense encourage more conservation.
In the USA, unlike Europe, we depised rationing by government, had fast increases in oil demand and the ability to serve it, large domestic supplies until the 1960's, cheap imports, poor mileage, large engine cars, long distances that meant low oil/fuel prices were needed.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 14):
I think it gets quite a bit hotter with very high humidity here as compared to Germany.

Dont make me laugh, go to Phoenix, San Diego, Chicago in July, Atlanta, Miami etc. and you will see what it feels like. Step outside in Vegas in July and you will not stand 5 minutes before you run to your AC unit.
 
LAS757300
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 2:44 pm

The Europeans will be able to adjust better than Americans if oil ever hits $100 per barrel. A significant porition of the European population could live without an automobile. The only American's I know who could do without their cars live in NYC and Chicago.
KMSP
 
sccutler
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 2:51 pm

Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 17):
The Europeans will be able to adjust better than Americans if oil ever hits $100 per barrel. A significant porition of the European population could live without an automobile. The only American's I know who could do without their cars live in NYC and Chicago.

Specious nonsense.

If oil hits $100/bbl, people will adapt, consumption will be reduced, the market will (as it always does) adapt.

It won't be fun. But that's OK, a little adversity will be educational.

I live in Dallas, and if I needed to, I could do quite nicely without a car most of the time. Bus to work, no problem.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 3:00 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 16):
Dont make me laugh, go to Phoenix, San Diego, Chicago in July, Atlanta, Miami etc. and you will see what it feels like. Step outside in Vegas in July and you will not stand 5 minutes before you run to your AC unit.

Actually, I´ve been both in Morrocco in the Sahara desert (dry heat) and in the Philippines in rural areas (humid heat) and could do very fine without air conditioning, as could the majority of the respective local population.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
LAS757300
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 3:02 pm

SCC-

Nonsense.

Sky high gas prices would kill the suburbs. When I'm from (suburban Minneapolis) most people commute by car to their job. Building a decent public transportation system would cut it. The population simply isn't dense enough and the streets are extremely pedestrian unfriendly.
KMSP
 
sccutler
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 3:05 pm

LAS, I think we are agreeing here.

The dramatic increase in cost would force adaptation, and better long-term planning.

Like I said, no fun, but it'd work out. It always does.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
LAS757300
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 3:16 pm

Europeans, for the most part, would have a much easier time adjusting. The cost of transportation would rise but it would be a picnic compared to what would happen here. I mean, how would you like to be the owner of a home 50 miles from downtown Dallas if gas prices double? I'm sure he'd be hurt a lot more than some guy living on the outskirts of Munich or Paris.
KMSP
 
scotron11
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 4:37 pm

Don't forget we have very high road taxes here as well. I have a 1.6liter car which carries a £165/yr ($300) road tax and in addition I'm hit with gas costing £0.85/litre ($6) a gallon (Imperial).

Tax percentage is over 75% and they want to raise it! I guess it pays for our politicians, as we never see government getting any smaller!
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:12 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
Actually, I´ve been both in Morrocco in the Sahara desert (dry heat) and in the Philippines in rural areas (humid heat) and could do very fine without air conditioning, as could the majority of the respective local population.

People from the dawn of time have lived without air conditioning. But what's the point? If you don't want it, don't get one. If you can do fine without it, that's great.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:18 pm

Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 20):
Sky high gas prices would kill the suburbs.

I'm not so sure. I'm from the suburbs and most people who work in NYC take the bus or train.

There's always a solution.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 5):
but how many times has Deutsche Bahn jacked up their fares in the last couple of years? Especially the short commutes.

Hmmm, DC8, it seems as if this was a rhetorical question. So let me answer to your precise question:
About 2 to 7 times, depends what „couple of years“ mean. Deutsche Bahn and the transport&tariff associations usually rise their prices 1-2 x within 2 years.

So that’s less than airlines do, who try to cover their mark-ups in tax supplements.


No, as Aloges mentioned, the taxes for oil aren’t ridiculous high, the German government is one of the governments that tries to the limited oil resources. Would be great if in other nations people also learn that oil is limited and valuably. Also that cars which are not fuel efficient are insanitary.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
Houses here tend to be quite well insulated (double glazed windows, rock wool / fibre glass insulation on the walls), a

Very true, houses here in Germany are totally different to houses and this is because of the prices, too. People here think more ecological.

Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 22):
I mean, how would you like to be the owner of a home 50 miles from downtown Dallas if gas prices double?

Hmmm, there's some infrastructure missing - seems as if government has slept, or the oil companies have too much influence in government.
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checkraiser
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 26):
Hmmm, there's some infrastructure missing - seems as if government has slept, or the oil companies have too much influence in government.

You can look at at that way but please bear in mind if we Americans had these nice big fancy Euro-style transportation systems somebody has to pay for it. Fares never cover the whole cost of these things. Perhaps it's a matter of time - a sort of evolution - before America does start looking more and more like Europe in that regard.

Somebody mentioned suburban New Yorkers taking the train and I know some other East coast cities have nice commuter rail. However, look at the expense of building such a system in an area as spread out as Dallas/Ft. Worth, Minneapolis/St.Paul, or LA. I'm not saying the Euro model is bad - but what works best there isn't necessarily the best option here.

When people here advocate raising motor fuel taxes through the roof I don't think they really think about the economy. I think the only thing they think of is people commuting. Given the MUCH greater distances between cities in the North America cheap transportation is a must. Trucking, rail freight and air freight are absoluetly vital to the American economy. If fuel prices here reached European levels everything would cost a LOT more.

Just look at our food supply. You have to fuel the tractors. Then the trucks that haul the goods to whatever type of processing facility (cannery, slaughterhouse, bakery.) Then you have to fuel the trucks/trains that take the finished food to the distribution center where it's unloaded with forklifts that burn fuel. We're not done yet - the distribution center now has to trasport the food to the supermarket. That food you bought at the grocery store today probably traveled over a thousand miles before it got there. If diesel fuel sold for $5-6/gal. you'd better be ready to pay $3+ for a loaf of bread.

So now you have my long winded two cents - which will increase to five cents if fuel prices go up anymore  Smile
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Pope
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 7:18 am

"The power to tax is the power to destroy."
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 7:23 am

the boilers are usually quite efficient modern designs


Yeah, no kidding/. We just saw a house in our neighborhood being sold. It has radiant floors and this ultra new German waterheater/boiler.

never saw anything like it but then again, they were European (a German and Irishman) who did their research and really put in high end stuff.


Like I said in another post, the answer, for us in the US, is right there, many alternatives.

But people have other things on their minds.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 7:24 am

"That's an automatism you'll have to prove in case you want me to believe it"

I believe that the growth in US GDP is forecasted to be .8 points lower than it should be due to the increase of the price of oil; there are similar reports that forecast a slightly lower worldwide growth rate agains due to the higher oil price. I guarantee that any country on earth, especially in the developed world, faces a similar drop in growth rate due to high oil.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
daedaeg
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 7:36 am

Europeans have high gas taxes which go to social services like higher education, healthcare, etc. Americans for example, on average pay more out-of-pocket for healthcare, higher education and other crap. It's a wash when you add it all up.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
It would be steadily growing MORE if its life blood was not as highly taxed.

It seems that the UK economy is stronger than the US at the moment... Sure its not growing fast, but better to be growing at a small rate than no rate at all  Wink
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
jwenting
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Thu May 12, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Overall the high prices have been one of the driving factors for the substantial progress in efficient technologies coming from europe, as well as renewable energy technology.

It´s not always pleasant, but necessary.

nonsense. It's been a major factor in hampering European economies. The only ones who make any money are the governments as usual.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Sorry, but that's incorrect. The British are paying high prices for gas, too, and enjoying a steadily growing economy.

Far less growth than they would have without the government stifling growth by skyhigh taxes on fuels.

Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 22):
Europeans, for the most part, would have a much easier time adjusting. The cost of transportation would rise but it would be a picnic compared to what would happen here.

Wrong. Prices would rise the same percentage on both sides of the pond, but that would in Europe mean a larger rise in monetary terms when our incomes are already lower.
So while you might pay $2.50 a gallon by then, we'll be paying €3 per liter.
What that will do is drive a LOT of companies into insolvency and cause a lot of people to loose their jobs.
That will have the effect of reducing the demand for oil from Europe which in turn is good for the US and China as they may get lower prices as a result.
I wish I were flying
 
aviationfreak
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Fri May 13, 2005 6:45 am

I think in the Netherlands we are screwed the most. Apart from the fuel price which is already heavily taxed, we have to pay so called road tax. The fare depends on what kind of fuel your car burns and how heavy it is. Most other countries in Europe don't have this. Every kind of tax for driving a car/using roads is within the fuel price and is often even cheaper than out here, if I'm informed correctly.

Regards,

Sander
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
mikeyboy
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Fri May 13, 2005 6:50 am

they gotta subsidise the illegal immigrants somehow!!!!!!.... n fuel we cant do without!!!

sickening!
 
mikeyboy
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Fri May 13, 2005 6:52 am

or it could be that we need to pay really really high wages to those numb nuts in brussels that say bananas have to be straight!!!!!!!!......
 
jwenting
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RE: Why Is Gas In Europe So Much More Expensive?

Fri May 13, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting Mikeyboy (Reply 36):
or it could be that we need to pay really really high wages to those numb nuts in brussels that say bananas have to be straight!!!!!!!!......

and of course to subsidise farmers (mostly french farmers, they get something like 70% of all EU money through stupid political work by the rest of the EU over the decades) to produce stuff we then destroy because there's way too much of it to use ourselves and we let ourselves be tricked into signing "fair trade" treaties which mean we can't sell those subsidised goods on the world market.
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