travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 10:48 am

WASHINGTON - In the first time that a federal judge has struck down a state constitutional provision limiting marriage to heterosexual couples, U.S. District Judge Joseph Bataillon on Thursday declared void a provision of the Nebraska constitution that defined marriage as only between a man and a woman and that banned same-sex civil unions, domestic partnerships and other similar relationships.

see:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7834478/

I wonder how long before the cries of "Damn those activist* judges" comes from the Far Right?
*activist = making a ruling we don't agree with
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 10:50 am

Wooo hooo 'Another "Activist" Judge' Strikes back..

From above link:
"Bataillon declared in his ruling that under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, Nebraska cannot ban same-sex marriages and civil unions."
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jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriag

Fri May 13, 2005 10:51 am

Yes!! Lets hear from some more conservatives who don't know that the legal system in this country is not based upon 'majority rules' and that a fundamental aspect of democracy is protecting the rights of minorities.

[Edited 2005-05-13 03:52:45]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 11:07 am

It's always a good day when we aren't on the losing end of the gay marriage debate, but I'll be honest, it makes me nervous. Assuming this ruling holds (because it's guaranteed to be appealed), and becomes precedent for every other state constitutional ban on gay marriage, this will give enormous leverage to those pushing for a constitutional amendment to the US Constitution.

Right now the various attempts to amend the US Constitution to bar gay marriage are easy to fight back, and everyone pretty much admits there is no real hope of getting an amendment through. But if this becomes the last recourse of those that oppose gay marriage, it's going to become a real battle. I think there is still enough common sense in America to eventually prevent any US Constitutional amendment from being enacted, but I wouldn't be surprised if, if all of the state amendments are struck down, if it at least got passed by congress.

Going to be an interesting battle!

Rgds
Duane
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 3):
this will give enormous leverage to those pushing for a constitutional amendment to the US Constitution.

Let's not forget, not ONLY does a constitutional ammendment have to pas both houses @ 60+%. THEN it has to be ratified by EVERY state in the US.. not going to happen...
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CORULEZ05
Posts: 1250
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:10 pm

so does this mean he is in favor of gay marriage? I'm confused
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
searpqx
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 4):
Let's not forget, not ONLY does a constitutional ammendment have to pas both houses @ 60+%. THEN it has to be ratified by EVERY state in the US.. not going to happen...

Which is why I said there was enough common sense to eventually prevent it being enacted, but I'm much more comfortable knowing it can't even get past congress right now, vs. having to fight the battle on a state by state basis.

Don't get me wrong, the ruling is a good thing and I'll take it and any ensuing battles anyday over losing my rights alltogether.

Rgds
Duane
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
LAS757300
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 2:04 pm

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:21 pm

3/4 of state legislatures have to approve an amendment to the US Constitution, not all of them.

These state anti-gay marriage amendments have had really unfortunate consequences. For example, the new amendment in Ohio may prevent domestic violence laws from being used to prosecute men who abuse their girlfriends.

edited for spelling

[Edited 2005-05-13 05:22:34]
KMSP
 
b757300
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 4):
Let's not forget, not ONLY does a constitutional ammendment have to pas both houses @ 60+%. THEN it has to be ratified by EVERY state in the US.. not going to happen...

Constitutional Amendments must pass both the House and Senate with a two-thirds majority and then must be ratified by three-fourths of the states.
_____________________________________________________________

But getting back on topic. Cases like this are why more and more Americans are becoming tired of activist judges who subvert the will of the people with the stroke of a pen. Anywhere from 60%-70% (depending on which poll you read) of Americans are opposed to homosexual "marriage" and actions like this are why more and more Americans are starting to realize that a Constitutional Amendment is the only sure way to stop activist judges. A handful of blackrobed tyrants should not be able to subvert the will of the people just because they feel like it.

If homosexuals want the right to "marry" then they should convince the people that it is a good idea. Forcing it on people is only going to create resentment and the kind of backlash that no one really wants.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
LAS757300
Posts: 254
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:27 pm

B757300 is obviously an expert on the various pertinent state constitutions as well as the fourteenth amendment.
KMSP
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
activist judges



Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
activist judges



Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
blackrobed tyrants

Ah, good to see some you know whats in here.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Forcing it on people is only going to create resentment and the kind of backlash that no one really wants.

Oh really. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, 753. It was only designed to be forced on us all through the Presidential campaign as a strategy of Karl Rove. The evil genious's plan worked and getting a referendum on the Ohio ballot was just enough to get enough uneducated hillbillies to get out and vote not for love of country or truly important issues for everyone, but jsut cuz they hate 'dem fags.

Please go on with your so called "opinion", its quite entertaining.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:30 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
But getting back on topic. Cases like this are why more and more Americans are becoming tired of activist judges who subvert the will of the people with the stroke of a pen.

OK, B757300...I've asked you this before and you've dodged it each and every time, but heck, maybe I'll be lucky for once. Do you therefore believe that interracial marriage should still be illegal because antimiscegenation laws were overturned by the Courts and not state legislatures that, were at the time, populated by bigots? I mean just substitute "interracial couples" for homosexuals in your post and it could be right out of the '50s or '60s when judges were using the Bible to justify their bigoted views against mixed race couples.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
SLC1
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting CORULEZ05 (Reply 5):
so does this mean he is in favor of gay marriage? I'm confused

It's not a judge's job to be in favor of one idea or another, rather to rule based on what has been passed down in law (notice, I didn't say agree with the legislature and/or president).
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
subvert the will of the people just because they feel like it

Or maybe because its wrong. The will of the people for civil rights issues, this is really good stuff. Read my post above for the way things should work. Majority rules does not fly when it comes to Constitutionality, buddy, that should be the first thing you learn. Too bad they didn't hold referendums for womens suffrage and black civil rights issues through the years, eh? It's no wonder the framers of the Constitution put in the electoral college because they didn't want to put this country at the will of the 'majority'. Sure not a position I would enjoy being in right now.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
nycflyer
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 10):
Oh really. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, 753. It was only designed to be forced on us all through the Presidential campaign as a strategy of Karl Rove. The evil genious's plan worked and getting a referendum on the Ohio ballot was just enough to get enough uneducated hillbillies to get out and vote not for love of country or truly important issues for everyone, but jsut cuz they hate 'dem fags.

Please go on with your so called "opinion", its quite entertaining.

amen, brother. respect.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Anywhere from 60%-70% (depending on which poll you read) of Americans are opposed to homosexual "marriage"

Who cares ? Presumably none of these 60-70% of people are planning to marry anyone of the same sex anyway, so how does the issue affect them ? Answer: it doesn't, it's none of their business, so they can f.r.o.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 7):
3/4 of state legislatures have to approve an amendment to the US Constitution, not all of them.



Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Constitutional Amendments must pass both the House and Senate with a two-thirds majority and then must be ratified by three-fourths of the states

Thanks for the corrections  Smile

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
subvert the will of the people

No, it's called constitutional law, which is the will of the people before us.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Anywhere from 60%-70% (depending on which poll you read) of Americans are opposed to homosexual "marriage"

Yes, but up to 70% is not enough. this whole point would be made moot if Marriage was segregated from civil unions.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
A handful of blackrobed tyrants should not be able to subvert the will of the people just because they feel like it.

No, it's called constitutional law, which is the will of the people before us.
Please do NOT confuse your will and the will of a few other morons with the will of "everyone" that is wrong.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Forcing it on people is only going to create resentment and the kind of backlash that no one really wants.

How resentful do you think gay people are?
Why can't you just live and let live? Can you PROVE that homosexuals being married/having recognized unions will negatively affect ANYTHING?
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 10:59 pm

[quote=TedTAce,reply=16][How resentful do you think gay people are?
/quote]

Well, I'll tell you how resentful THIS gay person is:

I makes me damn angry that up to 70% of the people in this country have no problem with creating a permanent, natural born citizenship without the same rights as the majority.

Many of these same opponents of equality wave Old Glory in one hand, hold a Bible in the other then have the audacity to proclaim me UnAmerican and UnPatriotic because I don't agree with thier narrowmindeness.

Have any Republicans came forward and said "Hey you fags and dykes...we're gonna make you second citizens, and in return...as the party of less government intrusion (if you believe this you've consumed way too much GOP Kool-Aid), we're gonna cut your taxes in half since we shouldn't take your money to put our children through school, fund the extra tax credits we have for reproducing and support a military that is not fighting for your particular freedoms, since we made sure you don't have as many as us "normal" Americans."

Of course they haven't.
Coast to Coast and Border to Border, Ozark Flies YOUR Way!
 
TedTAce
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Fri May 13, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 17):
Of course they haven't.

That would require thinking at a level most are incapable of..
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travelin man
Posts: 3198
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Anywhere from 60%-70% (depending on which poll you read) of Americans are opposed to homosexual "marriage" and actions like this are why more and more Americans are starting to realize that a Constitutional Amendment is the only sure way to stop activist judges.

Since when is "majority rule" the end-all and be-all in ruling the LEGALITY of something? It is not, and that standard does NOT protect the rights of the minority.

And I too am interested in what your views on inter-racial marriage are, considering at the time laws against that were ruled illegal, the prohibition against that enjoyed the support of the "majority".

The ONLY support for banning gay marriage is based on religious grounds, and guess what? Your religion should NOT rule me and my life!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting SLC1 (Reply 12):
It's not a judge's job to be in favor of one idea or another, rather to rule based on what has been passed down in law (notice, I didn't say agree with the legislature and/or president).

PRECISELY. If B757300 would bother reading the decision, he would see the decision is soundly based on case law, as well as strict interpretation of the 14th amendment.

What infuriates him and other anti gay marriage folk is they know that logic and law is not on their side... and it's only a matter of time before all gays will be allowed the same legal marriage benefits.

Even if a federal constitutional amendement is passed, I'm still convinced it's only a matter of time... after all, prohibition was repealed... and the 3/5's provision was repealed. Equality and progress may take a step back, but this country simply cannot trample on and deny rights to a certain subset of citizens if it expects to continue to be a strong leader and "voice of freedom" in the world.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 10):
The evil genious's plan worked and getting a referendum on the Ohio ballot was just enough to get enough uneducated hillbillies to get out and vote not for love of country or truly important issues for everyone, but jsut cuz they hate 'dem fags.

Although I understand your anger, you're making the same mistake you're critizicing. What make you think that only "uneducated hillbillies" oppose gay marriage? What make you think that "hate (to) 'dem fags" is the only reason behind their opinion?

As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families. Even if it's not "truly important" for you, social issues matter to them because of their faith and sense of community. And you know what, they have every right to uphold their values just as you do with yours.

Gay marriage keeps hurting gays and lesbians everywhere. What a shame most gay activists don't realize it.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
travelin man
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
Even if it's not "truly important" for you, social issues matter to them because of their faith

As I said previously, their faith should not impede my rights.
 
johnboy
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 3:23 am

What smarmy words you say, SFOMEX.

Perhaps you shouldn't marry a person of the same gender since it obviously upsets you so much.

Don't profess to tell me what i can and cannot do. Normally I tend to not get angry with people on this board...and you are certainly not the only one to fall into this "love the sinner, hate the sin" bullshit mentality...but PLEASE tend to your own life and religion.

Your "loving, kind words" make me redouble my efforts to see that gay marriage will become a reality.
 
gigneil
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriag

Sat May 14, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
Cases like this are why more and more Americans are becoming tired of activist judges who subvert the will of the people with the stroke of a pen.

I'm tired of being subjected to your will. This is America, I'm free, I don't need your permission I need the protection of the law. These "activist" judges are protecting me from you.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
If homosexuals want the right to "marry" then they should convince the people that it is a good idea.

If you and I have to agree on it, then it isn't freedom, is it?

N
 
TWFirst
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
Gay marriage keeps hurting gays and lesbians everywhere. What a shame most gay activists don't realize it.

I see.... so we shouldn't push for equal rights because it will come back to bite us... just shut up and sit in the back of the bus and don't make a fuss.



The issue here is OTHER peoples' irrational discomfort and fears.... NOT ours. Why should gays have to be denied equal treatment under the law just because the majority has some irrational fear that their ability to get married and have kids just like they always have will somehow be affected?

(edited for typo)

[Edited 2005-05-13 20:39:12]
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 3:35 am

SFOMEX,

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
What make you think that only "uneducated hillbillies" oppose gay marriage?

You know, I really dislike stereotypes and generalizations. People who are anti-gay shouldn't be stereotyped as "uneducated hillbillies."

I would like to point out, however, that I have yet to hear, in this forum, a rational, informed argument for not allowing gays to marry. Got one?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families

Okay...how does this have anything to do with gay marriage?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
And you know what, they have every right to uphold their values just as you do with yours.

So, are you saying we all have the right to uphold our values? That means heterosexuals can marry and homosexuals can marry?
 
Greyhound
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
And you know what, they have every right to uphold their values just as you do with yours.

But only if our values are the same. Else, we start becoming nothing more than --

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 10):
uneducated hillbillies

I respect the position of someone who supports gay marriage, even though I don't agree with it. Sorry, but I have my values which I feel compelled to uphold. As does just about everyone else here. So I'm sure some insults, generalizations and general hatred for my views will start getting hurled my way. No problem, I get used to the "so long as you agree with me you aren't stupid and irrational" attitude.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 26):
You know, I really dislike stereotypes and generalizations. People who are anti-gay shouldn't be stereotyped as "uneducated hillbillies."

I agree.
29th, Let's Go!
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriag

Sat May 14, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):

Gay marriage keeps hurting gays and lesbians everywhere. What a shame most gay activists don't realize it.

I've always contended that civil unions are the way to go at this time, that rights are more important than a word right now.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families.

As said before, this should not impede upon civil liberties of others. And while there are many educated, politically aware people who oppose this (which I do understand, by the way
 Yeah sure), you have to admit that this did boost the vote in Ohio- with a legitimate amount of people having this referendum be a primary motivation. Not millions, but some, and that made the difference.

[Edited 2005-05-13 21:26:31]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting B757300 (Reply 8):
If homosexuals want the right to "marry" then they should convince the people that it is a good idea.

Other way around bub...

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families

Not to be trite, but this is yet another example of the exact same argument used against interracial marriage.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
Even if it's not "truly important" for you, social issues matter to them because of their faith and sense of community

Fine and dandy, but their social issues should not trump our civil RIGHTS.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
And you know what, they have every right to uphold their values just as you do with yours.

Not when their 'values' stifle our liberty and finances.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families


Fine.
Love your traditional families.
And let us love our gay families.
End of story.
How difficult is that for you to understand?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 26):
You know, I really dislike stereotypes and generalizations. People who are anti-gay shouldn't be stereotyped as "uneducated hillbillies."

As do i, but if you would read my original post you wouldn't take it out of context- I sense a republican barrage coming at me. I did not say that you are all uneducated hillbillies. I said that the referendum in Ohio appealed to those types just enough to get them out voting and put Bush over the top. As someone much more knowledgable about Ohio politics, I'm sure Falcon can attest to the fact that there certainly are people that would deserve the title 'uneducated hillbilly'. So to recap, i did not call all you republicans uneducated hillbillies, I called a small portion of Ohio that.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
N1120A
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 4):
Let's not forget, not ONLY does a constitutional ammendment have to pas both houses @ 60+%. THEN it has to be ratified by EVERY state in the US..

2/3rds of both houses then 3/4ths of the states

Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 9):
B757300 is obviously an expert on the various pertinent state constitutions as well as the fourteenth amendment.

Well, no, he isn't because if he was he would have nothing to say here about "activist judges". This isn't even reading anything into the amendment or making up an interpretation. The people of the United States are guaranteed equal protection under the laws. That includes laws for marriage.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 29):
Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families

Not to be trite, but this is yet another example of the exact same argument used against interracial marriage.

Beyond that, it was the argument used in Bowers v. Hardwick in favor of sodomy laws that was overturned by Lawrence v. Texas. This is about family, the ability to protect ALL families (straight and gay).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
they love their traditional families.

What is a traditional family? Seems to me that term has changed substantially from say, 40 years ago.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 4):
Let's not forget, not ONLY does a constitutional ammendment have to pas both houses @ 60+%. THEN it has to be ratified by EVERY state in the US..

2/3rds of both houses then 3/4ths of the states

How many hours after I was corrected and gave thanks for the corrections?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 33):
What is a traditional family? Seems to me that term has changed substantially from say, 40 years ago.

Great observation!

Back then, a "traditional family" was same-race with female in the home. Times change.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
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RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 9:24 am

For what its worth, I know a shitload of 'career' republicans, who vow to not get married. Are you alright with that?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 23):
Your "loving, kind words" make me redouble my efforts to see that gay marriage will become a reality.

Fine. It's your right.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 25):
Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
Gay marriage keeps hurting gays and lesbians everywhere. What a shame most gay activists don't realize it.

I see.... so we shouldn't push for equal rights because it will come back to bite us... just shut up and sit in the back of the bus and don't make a fuss.

No. Gay activists should realize that they are fighting a lost war. If they really care about their community, they would fight for civil unions. Same rights for gay couples without pissing off more than half of the country. Civil union's legislation is a great achievement that would be accepted by most of the people.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 26):
I would like to point out, however, that I have yet to hear, in this forum, a rational, informed argument for not allowing gays to marry. Got one?

I'm not sure if it would a "rational, informed argument" for you, but I got one. The reason I oppose gay marriage is because I see it as a divisive issue that it's hurting gays and lesbians, especially those living in small or rural communities and those living in less developed countries. Marriage is such an important, sacred institution that it's just logical that a lot of people get upset when a bunch of activists calls them bigots because they happen to believe that marriage was intended (by God or tradition, your pick) only for a man and a woman.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 28):
I've always contended that civil unions are the way to go at this time, that rights are more important than a word right now.

My view exactly.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 29):
Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families

Not to be trite, but this is yet another example of the exact same argument used against interracial marriage.

It may be. But your analogy between interracial marriage and gay marriage is flawed and you know it.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 29):
Even if it's not "truly important" for you, social issues matter to them because of their faith and sense of community

Fine and dandy, but their social issues should not trump our civil RIGHTS.

You're right. However, gay marriage is not a civil right since marriage is defined as the union between a man and a woman. What you're supporting is to radically redefine our society's concept of matrimony.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 30):
Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
As difficult as would be to understand it for you, a lot of people oppose gay marriage out of love, faith and tradition. They don't hate gays, they love their traditional families

Fine.
Love your traditional families.
And let us love our gay families.
End of story.
How difficult is that for you to understand?

I do understand it. Could you also understand that gay marriage, in the view of many, it's a frontal attack against the core of what a family is: mom, dad and kids? You may not agree, but at least accept how divisive this issue is.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 33):
Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 21):
they love their traditional families.

What is a traditional family? Seems to me that term has changed substantially from say, 40 years ago.

No. Family hasn't changed. It may be different in the modern, urban America or some parts of Europe. But for most of America itself and the rest of the world a family is and always will be two loving parents (mom and dad) and their children.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
You're right. However, gay marriage is not a civil right since marriage is defined as the union between a man and a woman. What you're supporting is to radically redefine our society's concept of matrimony.

That is a very flawed argument. Defined by what? Law. Laws change. There was a time when only male, white, landowners could vote. That was the law. Voting was defined as an activity of male, white, landowners. That didn't mean it wasnt a civil right for others, a right they were not getting.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
No. Gay activists should realize that they are fighting a lost war.



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
If they really care about their community, they would fight for civil unions. Same rights for gay couples without pissing off more than half of the country. Civil union's legislation is a great achievement that would be accepted by most of the people.

You could have said this better...


I agree that the VERBIAGE needs to be modfied.
I think I have said it before, but I don't mind repeating myself in this case...

Marriage should be a 'CHURCH' function, where as CIVIL Unions should be a state function.
EVERYONE who wants legal recognition M/F M/M F/F gets a 'civil union'

EVERYONE who wants "Marriage" recognition should be sanctioned by THEIR CHURCH!!

This way we can get a REALLY good holy war going between the churches that do and don't "marry" gay couples!!
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N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 34):
How many hours after I was corrected and gave thanks for the corrections?

Sorry about that. I was scanning down picking things up as I went along. Not trying to  flamed  you

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 39):
Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
If they really care about their community, they would fight for civil unions. Same rights for gay couples without pissing off more than half of the country. Civil union's legislation is a great achievement that would be accepted by most of the people.

...

Marriage should be a 'CHURCH' function, where as CIVIL Unions should be a state function.
EVERYONE who wants legal recognition M/F M/M F/F gets a 'civil union'

EVERYONE who wants "Marriage" recognition should be sanctioned by THEIR CHURCH!!

The problem with what both of you said is that the term "marriage" is one that is recognized by law as creating certain rights. In that, you are treating gay people unequally under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. That is exactly what was struck down in Brown. Then again, I am betting B757300 (change your name, I like that plane) thinks we should still be living under Plessy
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 10:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Plessy

Damn, I HATE it when you guys make me LEARN!!!

http://www.watson.org/~lisa/blackhistory/post-civilwar/plessy.html
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KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
I do understand it. Could you also understand that gay marriage, in the view of many, it's a frontal attack against the core of what a family is: mom, dad and kids? You may not agree, but at least accept how divisive this issue is.

What an interesting conservative talking point you bring up, but I am glad you did.

Explain to me just exactly how gay marriage is an attack against families? Because that's what every one says and I don't think that is the case at all. If two men or two women are allowed to marry, how does that affect, in any way, a heterosexual couple?

You know what hurts marriage? Demanding jobs, money problems, infidelity, divorce, death, and wars that take people away from their family for 12 months at a time - just to name a few - those things hurt marriage.

The problem with "selling" gay marriage to a skeptical public is that most people don't care because it does not affect them. So they support bans based on their religious beliefs or based on what their friends tell them, or perhaps just general bias. Plus, they think the law just bans marriage, but often - as was the case in Nebraska - it goes much deeper than that.

People need to understand that gay people, agree with their lifestyle or not, are still people and deserve the same rights because they have the same problems and joys as everyone else - not to mention that they are guaranteed these rights due to that pesky constitution thing. Gay couples buy houses, gay couples can get sick and should be able to get a visit from their partner - no matter whether or not Mom and Dad approve of the relationship, some gay couples want kids, the list goes on and on - too bad all some people see is distrust, hate, or fear and then let that rule them.

[Edited 2005-05-14 03:57:44]
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
However, gay marriage is not a civil right since marriage is defined as the union between a man and a woman. What you're supporting is to radically redefine our society's concept of matrimony.

Radically redfine our society's concept of matrimony? That's precisely what the Court did in Loving v. Virginia when they legalized interracial marriages. Keep in mind that the concept of interracial marriage was also divisive, despite your belief to the contrary, and many states had passed antimiscegenation laws that would, at best, simply nullify the marriage, and at worst, force the couple to be exiled out of the state. Let's look at some choice quotes from the original trial court in Loving to show you what a radical redefinition it was to allow interracial marriages.

Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.

In an earlier case, Naim v. Naim, the Supreme Court of Virginia writes:

No such claim for the intermarriage of the races could be supported; by no sort of valid reasoning could it be found to be a foundation of good citizenship or a right which must be made available to all on equal terms. In the opinion of the legislatures of more than half the States it is harmful to good citizenship.

We are unable to read in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, or in any other provision of that great document, any words or any intendment which prohibit the State from enacting legislation to preserve the racial integrity of its citizens, or which denies the power of the State to regulate the marriage relation so that it shall not have a mongrel breed of citizens. We find there no requirement that the State shall not legislate to prevent the obliteration of racial pride, but must permit the corruption of blood even though it weaken or destroy the quality of its citizenship. Both sacred and secular history teach that nations and races have better advanced in human progress when they cultivated their own distinctive characteristics and culture and developed their own peculiar genius.

As much as you hate to admit it, interracial marriage is as good a comparison to gay marriage as you'll find.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
avek00
Posts: 3160
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 43):
As much as you hate to admit it, interracial marriage is as good a comparison to gay marriage as you'll find.

...Problem is, race is a suspect classification subject to strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment; sexual orientation is not.
Live life to the fullest.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
marriage

The 'touchstone' word. My impression is that it's roots are biblical and the thumpers can't have the hypocrasy of the bible saying homosexuality is bad, yet allow "gay" marriage to be good. I wish they'd sort out the other Dogma too..

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
how does that affect, in any way, a heterosexual couple?

a TYPICAL heterosexual couple: none what-so-ever.
a RELIGIOUS heterosexual couple: "Oh my God, we are in the SAME lot as those Queers!!! WE are worthless and might as well have sex with animals!!"

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
You know what hurts marriage? Demanding jobs, money problems, infidelity, divorce, death, and wars that take people away from their family for 12 months at a time - just to name a few - those things hurt marriage.

 checkmark 

and wars that take people away from their family for 12 months at a time.... and longer.. like FOREVER!!
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KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 44):
...Problem is, race is a suspect classification subject to strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment; sexual orientation is not.

From the 14th Amendment:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Where does it say something about race? It says all persons, not all persons but "them fags".

If it is just based on religious or "moral" reasons (same thing) isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state?
 
PacificWestern
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:30 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 37):
But for most of America itself and the rest of the world a family is and always will be two loving parents (mom and dad) and their children.

How very perfect.

So, if Daddy is sneaking into his young daughter's room at night for a bit of fun and Mummy is roaring drunk downstairs knocking Junior about in a foggy dream they are after all still a family. Two loving parents (mom and dad) and their children. Yes, the required principals to define a family. It might be sickening and the family closet has more skeletons than a graveyard, but at least it's a family in the traditional sense of the word.

And you are correct, most of America and the world would rather the above scenario than the ever so harmful notion of two women raising a child in a healthy and nurturing environment or two men adopting a kid that would otherwise be unwanted and without guidance.

Those weary individuals who are consumed with contempt for gays and lesbians are people who love to hate. They need to hate to feel alive and superior. But, I am sure they all came from loving homes with a mother, a father, and siblings....in other words...a family. Only families produce such quality human beings.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 44):
...Problem is, race is a suspect classification subject to strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment; sexual orientation is not.

Actually, according to Lawrence, sexual orientation is now subject to strict scrutiny.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Judge Strikes Down Nebraska Ban On Gay Marriage

Sat May 14, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 44):
...Problem is, race is a suspect classification subject to strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment; sexual orientation is not.

From: http://www.nps.gov/malu/documents/amend14.htm
"
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
"

What did you miss about "All persons"?

I see nothing explicitly covering Blacks OR excluding Homosexuals.

Nice try, maybe NEXT time you will bother with the FACTS
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