Falcon84
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Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 11:48 am

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/15/iraq.main/index.html

"This war came to us, not the other way around", my ass, you hypocrite. You and your boss started this war out of paranoia and political greed-YOU brought this war to the world, lady.

What a friggin' joke.
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LHMark
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 11:49 am

I caught that after American dad, and it raised my hackles. I hope the average enlistee is smarter than that.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 11:53 am

How the hell does a preemptive strike "come to you" not the other way around?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
"This war came to us, not the other way around", my ass, you hypocrite. You and your boss started this war out of paranoia and political greed-YOU brought this war to the world, lady.

Well, you know why Powell is out and she is in - you don't survive in the Bush administration if you don't "tow the line" to the letter. Loyalty is the only thing rewarded, performance and common sense mean nothing. Why else would Bolton be the nominee for the UN, when he so hates the UN and is the most un-diplomatic SOB possible (vying for the position of top US diplomat)?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
I caught that after American dad, and it raised my hackles.

I heard it on CNN when flipping channels, and inadvertently let out a "what an asshole", with the kids in the room-and quickly got reprimanded, and rightly so, by my wife. Couldn't help it. Whenver anyone in this administration opens their mouths about how the war started, or why we fought it, I want to puke.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 2):
How the hell does a preemptive strike "come to you" not the other way around?

Good point. Wasn't Iraq the first real test of the "Bush Doctrine" of pre-emptive war? It was, and to claim it was thrust on us is an attempt to change the historical facts of the outbreak of this conflict, which falls squrely on George Bush and no one else. To say someone else forced it on us kinds of defeats this much-touted "Bush Doctrine". In other words-it's an outright lie.

[Edited 2005-05-16 04:57:03]
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xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Whenver anyone in this administration opens their mouths about how the war started, or why we fought it, I want to puke.

 yawn 

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:00 pm

Yes, because Condi and Bush just LOVEEE seeing young American soldiers die every week. This war was brought to us; America is not there for the heck of it.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Usairwys757
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:00 pm

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
I caught that after American dad

I'm not Republican, but that show is hilarious. It describes Conservative's to a tee.
Inactive.....
 
b757300
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:02 pm

Only people living in a September 10th mentality would consider it to be a lie or else they are simply incapable of understanding what she actually means.

War was brought to this country on September 11th and that day changed how we must respond to threats. We cannot wait for the threat to become imminent or for an enemy to strike this country or our allies. Instead we must deal with the threat by whatever means necessary before it shows up at home and kills innocent Americans.

It's funny, if President Bush had launched a war into Afghanistan before September 11th in order to destroy Al-Qaeda, the U.S. left and Europe would have been screaming about it just like they are now about Iraq.
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KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Wasn't Iraq the first real test of the "Bush Doctrine" of pre-emptive war?

Absolutely, and proves why that doctrine is so dangerous. With the best intel in the world, or close to it, we got it wrong. We went to war based on bad intel, though they now claim it was more than WMDs, but I don't remember anything more than WMDs at the time. So what happens now? Do you say, sorry - we got it wrong. No, it's too late now and we look like idiots.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
I hope the average enlistee is smarter than that.

Some of us are, many are not. Sadly most will support Bush just because he is Republican, shares their "values", and they think he treats us better, though I have shown that to be debatable, at best, many times.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
Yes, because Condi and Bush just LOVEEE seeing young American soldiers die every week. This war was brought to us; America is not there for the heck of it.

It was not "brought to us" by anyone but the Bush Adminstration. Iraq had not attacked us; had not threatened to attack us; did not have anything to attack us with. We forced it on the world. WE went to the UN and laid out a case for a pre-emptive strike, which turned out to be a false case; WE warred on them, not the other way around.

Fortunately, we live in a democracy, my friend, and abhorrent lies like this do not, and will not last. Historians will record that the US, led by Mr. Bush, out of our own free will, initiated a war against Iraq without just cause, against a nation that couldn't even defend itself.

It's a lie. It was a lie 6 months into the war, and it's a lie now, and always will be a lie. Bush wanted this war, and he got it. End of story.
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xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
Only people living in a September 10th mentality would consider it to be a lie or else they are simply incapable of understanding what she actually means.

War was brought to this country on September 11th and that day changed how we must respond to threats. We cannot wait for the threat to become imminent or for an enemy to strike this country or our allies. Instead we must deal with the threat by whatever means necessary before it shows up at home and kills innocent Americans.

It's funny, if President Bush had launched a war into Afghanistan before September 11th in order to destroy Al-Qaeda, the U.S. left and Europe would have been screaming about it just like they are now about Iraq.

757,

There is a topic every other day bashing the administration. I have figured out that they still will post no matter what we say.

XJR
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Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
Only people living in a September 10th mentality would consider it to be a lie or else they are simply incapable of understanding what she actually means.

Hello? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. That's been proven, and only blind followers of right wing extremists believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. Afghanistan DID have a role in 9/11, and therefor that war WAS forced on us, because of actions inside that nation. Iraq had no role in 9/11. Only frightened paranoids like yourself continue to believe that, B757300.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
War was brought to this country on September 11th

It was brought to us from Afghanistan, buddy, and that does not give us the right to willy nilly invade anyone because we're scared of every shadow that moves. Iraq, again, had nothing to do with 9/11. The war, and the politics surrounding it were completely separate from 9/11. Cheney and Bush brought up the spector of close Iraq/OBL ties to scare people like you who were inclined to be scared, and who don't give a shit about any other nation to begin with, B757300.

The comfort, if there is any, B757300, is that you're a dwindling minority on this war, why it was started, and why we're continuing to fight it. Maybe that galls you more than anything.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
It's funny, if President Bush had launched a war into Afghanistan before September 11th in order to destroy Al-Qaeda, the U.S. left and Europe would have been screaming about it just like they are now about Iraq.

Yes, and I would have been one of them, friend. A democracy should be held to a higher standard when it comes to putting their young men and women in harms way. To me, we should not attack unless attacked, as is our tradition. The fact you believe otherwise tells me you could justify any invasion of any nation, because you believe America should have that right simply because we're the U.S. I have a higher standard for launching a war, and this war in Iraq didn't meet that threshold.
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Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 10):
757,

There is a topic every other day bashing the administration. I have figured out that they still will post no matter what we say.

That's because what we posts hits home, and that's what you can't stand. This guy fucked up, and has cost well over 1500 Americans and thousands of Iraqi's their lives, yet you defend it like it was such a righteous thing. Attacking a defenseless nation, who had not threatened us, isn't righteous-it's an abomination.
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KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
It's funny, if President Bush had launched a war into Afghanistan before September 11th in order to destroy Al-Qaeda, the U.S. left and Europe would have been screaming about it just like they are now about Iraq.

Equally funny is that if another country were to attack someone else, preemptively, we would be the first ones crying about that too. It's ok for us, but not for the rest of the world.

I am no a lefty, I am very much a moderate with no political affiliation, but this administration is a disaster and if a person can't see that a person is only thinking in a partisan manner - IMO.

I supported Bush, all the way up until about 6 months after Iraq, when I realized people were dying in Iraq for no good reason. Whether he lied about WMD's, stretched the truth, hand picked intelligence to suit his needs - or was oblivious and really thought they were a threat - the Bush doctrine is still a mistake. Most of all, I fear we have made many enemies for years to come - and despite the bravado of some people, our country can't successfully exist in this world without friends.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 2):
How the hell does a preemptive strike "come to you" not the other way around?

...my thoughts as well

Quoting KC135R (Reply 2):
Why else would Bolton be the nominee for the UN, when he so hates the UN and is the most un-diplomatic SOB possible

methinks you just answered your own question cher  Wink

...have you forgotten how the Bush administration (and I sometimes wonder if not 'rightfully so') views the UN?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
It was not "brought to us" by anyone but the Bush Adminstration.

...and the letters "U" and "N"  Big grin
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stlgph
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
We cannot wait for the threat to become imminent or for an enemy to strike this country or our allies. Instead we must deal with the threat by whatever means necessary before it shows up at home and kills innocent Americans.

so...what are your thoughts on racism?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
That's because what we posts hits home, and that's what you can't stand.

falcon, you're talking to someone from toledo. they just won't get it.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
That's because what we posts hits home, and that's what you can't stand. This guy fucked up, and has cost well over 1500 Americans and thousands of Iraqi's their lives, yet you defend it like it was such a righteous thing. Attacking a defenseless nation, who had not threatened us, isn't righteous-it's an abomination.

Not really. We have repeatedly proved you wrong, yet you won't hear anything of it. I'm just getting tired of repeating myself every time. And i wouldn't call Sadaam's Iraq a "defenseless nation".

XJR
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Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 14):
and the letters "U" and "N"

Actually, that's incorrect. Most of the UN was against going to war, even after Colin Powell's famous presentation (Note the Iraq war lovers on here: that presentation was about WMD: not freeing Iraq, not getting rid of Saddam not expanding Democracy-WMD. You remember those?).

The US then contemptuously brushed aside all opposition, even from long-time Allies, and went to war anyway, thinking we'd be out in 6 months (hence the famous "Mission Accomplished" idiocy). We went in to get Bush is war, with no plan of what we wanted to do, and no plan to get out.

Starting that war wasn't exactly a proud day for the United States, and will be black mark against us for years to come.
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xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 15):
falcon, you're talking to someone from toledo. they just won't get it.

Ha. Toledo is a union town. We have always been a blue county. Explain this one to me.

XJR
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DLKAPA
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
War was brought to this country on September 11th and that day changed how we must respond to threats. We cannot wait for the threat to become imminent or for an enemy to strike this country or our allies. Instead we must deal with the threat by whatever means necessary before it shows up at home and kills innocent Americans.

I agree. 9/11 changed how we should respond to threats. It made the president actually read the "terrorist strike imminent" memo, the one that came from Iraq, and ironically enough was probably handed to bush by one of his spin doctors rather than the actual intelligence agencies. Translation: Iraq ain't no damn threat!

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 10):
There is a topic every other day bashing the administration. I have figured out that they still will post no matter what we say.

You have just proven that what you have to say isn't relevent or important.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
because you believe America should have that right simply because we're the U.S

Honestly, I don't think he believes that. Kool-aide jokes aside, we're all patriots here. No need for hatred on either side.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 16):
Not really. We have repeatedly proved you wrong, yet you won't hear anything of it. I'm just getting tired of repeating myself every time. And i wouldn't call Sadaam's Iraq a "defenseless nation".

1. You rarely prove me wrong. Throwing out the GOP Playbook isn't the way to prove anyone wrong.

2. If you're tired of it, that's just too damned bad. That's your problem, and I'll keep making your tired if I feel like it, friend.

3. The fact that we rolled over their military in 19 days tells me they were defenseless. The fact that they didn't have those WMD that people like you wailed about before the war, then conveniently forgot after it was found they weren't there, tells me they were utterly defenseless.

Iraq, on the day we invaded, was a dirt-poor, poverty-stricken, militarily eviscerated nation. I'm so glad you're proud we beat them into the ground. You can be proud of it-I'm ashamed of it.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 2):
Well, you know why Powell is out and she is in - you don't survive in the Bush administration if you don't "tow the line" to the letter.

Exactly why I think Colin Powell has more integrity than most other politicians combined. He wasn't afraid to call the ball and raise the  redflag  when necessary. Replacing him with Condi Rice was/is a serious error.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
"what an asshole", with the kids in the room-and quickly got reprimanded, and rightly so, by my wife.

He He He  rotfl  I'd like to have seen that my friend . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
"This war came to us, not the other way around",

I don't think - I hope - Condi is referring to simply the Iraq War. Rather, I believe her context was the War on Terror . . . that's the way I understood it. In that light, I would agree with her, this War on Terror was brought to us on 9/11. In reality, before that, this cuntry and it's previous leadership was simply not concerned in that nothing had blown up yet. The NIMBY syndrome.

If she is referring solely to the conflict in Iraq, I believe she's full of shit.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 8):
With the best intel in the world, or close to it, we got it wrong. We went to war based on bad intel, though they now claim it was more than WMDs, but I don't remember anything more than WMDs at the time.

The intel was dead wrong. But I would remind my fellow A-Netters, that nearly everyone - Repub, Democrat and Independent - agreed it was accurate. Let's not forget this FACT and continue to assume the only person to blame is Bush. Personally, I think his entire Intel Staff shuold have been fired. His CIA Director should have been canned. Rumsfeld and his cronies should have been gone long ago. While Bush will shoulder the blame for wht ever successes and failures come of this, as he should since he is PotUS, there were others involved in the playbook that will go away quietly into the sunset.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 8):
So what happens now? Do you say, sorry - we got it wrong. No, it's too late now and we look like idiots.

As it's been said before KC, what happens now is, we must stay the course and finish the job. As you say, it's too late now. NO, we do NOT look like idiots - we look like war mongers . . . there is a difference. While I don't pretend to think we shouldn't be there, I will say one of the first conversations I had with a friend of mine here at work (also a retired Army CSM) the say we entered Iraq was "Shit, Larry, I hope there are WMD because if there isn't we're gonna look like fools". Personally, I wouldn't have rolled in quite so quickly. NO . . before anyone suggest it, I would NOT ahve waited on the UN to give a nod  yes  . . . that organization is more crooked than our own government and generally useless and outmoded.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
Only people living in a September 10th mentality would consider it to be a lie or else they are simply incapable of understanding what she actually means.

I'd pretty much agree, B757300, as I mention to Falcon - it's the War on Terror she was referring to - not simply the Iraq war.

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 10):
I have figured out that they still will post no matter what we say.

Agreed. Although some are more moderate in their hatred of anything Bush and open to discussion, others simply rant on and on.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
It's funny, if President Bush had launched a war into Afghanistan before September 11th in order to destroy Al-Qaeda, the U.S. left and Europe would have been screaming about it just like they are now about Iraq.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
To me, we should not attack unless attacked, as is our tradition.

Unfortunately, I think "pre-emptive" strikes are necessary. Had we hit Afghanistan pre-9/11, perhaps the WTC would still be standing, there wouldn't be a hole in a Pennsylvania field, and the Arlington side of the Pentagon wouldn't have been remodeled so quickly. Purely conjecture. But perhaps if intel obtained in the late 1990s about OBL and Al-Queda had been acted upon rather than sat upon, things would be entirely different.

Again, conjecture. Hind Sight is 20/20 . . .

Still - back to topic - Condi Rice is the wrong person for SecState. I don't care how many PhDs she has, there is no replacement for field experience. Loyalty is one thing, blind, ignorant loyalty is quite another.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Actually, that's incorrect.

Wasn't a claim, just rhetoric for the sake of the joke  Wink
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KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 16):
Not really. We have repeatedly proved you wrong, yet you won't hear anything of it. I'm just getting tired of repeating myself every time. And I wouldn't call Sadaam's Iraq a "defenseless nation".

Yeah because after 10+ years of flying over that country every day, and blowing stuff up from time to time, they were a real threat. However, I agree the world is a better place without Saddam - but it is not our right to decide that someone who did not attack us must go. What if any country who does not like Bush (and there's no shortage) decides to attack us? Would that be ok as long as they pointed out we have WMDs - which, of course, we do - but what if we didn't and they said we did, would it still be ok? They could always say later "but we thought they had them."
 
Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:45 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I don't think - I hope - Condi is referring to simply the Iraq War. Rather, I believe her context was the War on Terror .

Had she said that in Afghanistan, my friend, I'd agree, but she said it in Iraq, and, in my mind, it was another attempt to cover up the real source of this black mark in our history-the decisions that she helped to foster that led to this war.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Unfortunately, I think "pre-emptive" strikes are necessary.

I don't, because then, like in Iraq, we base the war on assumption that we either cannot prove beforehand, or later, we find out are totally false, as was the case that Iraq was sinking in WMD.

To me, you leave pre-emptive attacks to the Imperial Japans of the world-regimes or cells with no honor, and who place no value on human life. Democracies are supposed to be better than that. Between 1948 and 1990, we railed against the USSR for acting in just such a manner. Now, in this case, we're emulating them. I can't be for that, or proud of that.
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xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
I'm so glad you're proud we beat them into the ground. You can be proud of it-I'm ashamed of it.

Putting words in my mouth...typical.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
That's your problem, and I'll keep making your tired if I feel like it, friend.

Typical.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
You rarely prove me wrong. Throwing out the GOP Playbook isn't the way to prove anyone wrong.

Mostly always...if you doubt that go back and pull examples. And while you are at it, show me where i "pulled out the GOP Playbook". I just state facts, no "playbooks" involved.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
that people like you wailed about before the war,

People like me? Exactly who are these people like me? I actually liked Clinton, he had a few ideas out there, but I liked his politics. But I also like Bush better than the two gentlemen he beat. So please tell me, people like me?

XJR
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jasepl
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
"This war came to us, not the other way around",

ROFL! It's hysterical enough that she's saying this. It's even more alarming that people are actually defending her having said it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
(Note the Iraq war lovers on here: that presentation was about WMD: not freeing Iraq, not getting rid of Saddam not expanding Democracy-WMD. You remember those?).

Ah yes, WMDs. What were those again? Weapons that Mysteriously Disappeared?!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
this cuntry

Freudian slip ANC?  Wink
 
Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
this cuntry

Don't correct it, ANC. It was perfect, talking about Condi!  Silly
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rsmith6621a
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
War was brought to this country on September 11th and that day changed how we must respond to threats. We cannot wait for the threat to become imminent or for an enemy to strike this country or our allies. Instead we must deal with the threat by whatever means necessary before it shows up at home and kills innocent Americans.

B757300,

The president you support sends his thanks for supporting him and his lie once again. When will you admit that the president needed an excuse to invade Iraq, they allowed false intellegence to be produced to decieve and place fear in every americans mind. Bush has admitted several time Saddam had NADA to do with 9/11, we took this shameful war to them they did nothing to us....NOTHING!!!!.....Why are we not invading Saudi Arabia after all that is where the 19 came from.....Ill bet it has somthing to do with a hand holding freindship.

The Bush administration has made a joke out of the USA, this administration is filled with much corruption. Rice is the worst possible choice for SoS after all it was her advise that caused Bush to look the other way in regards to that HISTORICAL DOCUMENT........the Aug6 PDB......remember????

Thanks for supporting arrogance.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
It was perfect, talking about Condi!

mature...you are how old?
Look ma' no hands!
 
jasepl
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Don't correct it, ANC. It was perfect, talking about Condi!

Hee hee!

 Smile
 
Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 29):
mature...you are how old?

Stop being a stick in the mud, and laugh at the irony, or is that beyond you?

And people call me "bitter". Get a life, dude.
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KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Exactly why I think Colin Powell has more integrity than most other politicians combined. He wasn't afraid to call the ball and raise the when necessary. Replacing him with Condi Rice was/is a serious error.

I think he left on his own free will, not because he was asked to leave. I suspect he's embarrassed by his association with this administration - but that's just me.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
His CIA Director should have been canned.

Well, actually Tenet was Clinton's CIA director who was still around from then, but at any rate he should have been canned, I agree. I think he effectively was since he left the job for "personal reasons". However, I would have respected Bush more if he had said Tenet was being punished for his errors, not sending him off talking about what an outstanding job he had done - it made me sick to hear it, but I know it's all politics - admitting Tenet screwed up was tantamount to admitting he (Bush) had screwed up also. But I don't even see it that way, it's not Bush's job to gather intel - he has to trust what he's got - so had he said Tenet screwed up it would have made me think Bush had the best intentions, but bad info.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Rumsfeld and his cronies should have been gone long ago.

Agreed - Rumsfeld is doing nobody any favors - and his mismanagement cost a lot of lives, IMO.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
As it's been said before KC, what happens now is, we must stay the course and finish the job

I agree, we can't leave now - I couldn't agree more. How we finish this will determine our standing in the world for a long time to come, but sadly so will how we started this. I just hope the end helps balance out the beginning.
 
xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
Stop being a stick in the mud, and laugh at the irony, or is that beyond you?

And people call me "bitter". Get a life, dude.

I could see it with Hillary...that would be irony. And bitter? Hehe...I gave you your chances with ammends from me, but you chose to attack it or ignore it. Bitter to one person and one person only.

XJR
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Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 32):
I agree, we can't leave now

Therin is the dilemma. Despite my opposition to going to war there, and to the constant lies coming out of the mouths of Bush Administration officials since about June of '03, when it was found WMD weren't piled on each other, only the naive can seriously say we should get out now. We put this mess upon the Iraqi people, and we owe it to them-as well to the 1500+ American servicemen and women who have died-to try to make of a war that shoudln't have been fought.

To leave now, would mean those men and women died for absolutely nothing, IMHO. If we can make Iraq into something, and make a bad thing into a situation where Iraq may actually have a chance, then they would have died for something more than just the whim of a President who wanted desperately to have a war he could be remembered for.
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Falcon84
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 1:00 pm

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 33):
Hehe...I gave you your chances with ammends from me, but you chose to attack it or ignore it.

Why would I want to make amends with someone keeping company with B757300, and who thinks this war is some great thing? Don't flatter yourself.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
xjramper
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
Why would I want to make amends with someone keeping company with B757300, and who thinks this war is some great thing? Don't flatter yourself.

Once again putting words in my mouth. Fuckin show me where I said that this war is some great thing. You can't can you? I associate with someone you don't like, and all of a sudden everything they stand for, I stand for as well. Don't assume, assumptions can turn sour.

You failed to answer my question from earlier:

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 25):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
that people like you wailed about before the war,

People like me? Exactly who are these people like me? I actually liked Clinton, he had a few ideas out there, but I liked his politics. But I also like Bush better than the two gentlemen he beat. So please tell me, people like me?

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I don't think - I hope - Condi is referring to simply the Iraq War. Rather, I believe her context was the War on Terror . . . that's the way I understood it.

I don't know, it sounds like she was talking about Iraq to me. Though I agree with you if she is referring to the war on terror as a whole. Moreover - knowing what we know now - I see Iraq as a diversion from the war on terror, not an extension of it - which is why I feel like it was a waste of time and, most importantly, life.

"I want you to keep focused on what you are doing here," Rice told them.

Although the U.S. decision to launch the war in 2003 was condemned in many nations and the original justification -- Saddam's alleged weapons of mass destruction -- turned out to be based on flawed intelligence, Rice said, "This war came to us, no the other way around."
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:00 pm

This is all a big reason I don't like politics, and I'm glad to be able to say that living out here near the capital. I read the headlines, but that's it. Condi? Yeah, another Bush-backer. I didn't like Colin Powell much due to differences of opinion on certain matters, but he still had the authority and dignity to be able to work effectively in that office.

I lost respect for Condi when she was testifying on the pre-9/11 condition (on what kind of info we had) for our defensive readiness. Honestly, I can't remember all the content of those hearings, but I was left with the impression that she was ducking, dodging and fending off the questions then better than Erik Morales did when he stopped Manny Pacquiao's frontal assault a month ago (will be one of the top-5 bouts of the year). And then I heard Bush called her to congratulate her after she had finished. "Way to go, Dr. Rice! I knew you were a cowboy, er, girl!" Don't get me wrong, I like Bush, the person, fairly decently, but quite a bit less so with the current supporting cast of cronies, lapdogs and "yes" men and women.

I understand Bush's intentions for fighting a war on terror (though, the deal about Iraq is beyond me - does he really think a successful democratic republic, even an Islamic one, will take root there? - And after the Brits were there for several years in the last century and they couldn't introduce democracy?), but, as always, there's too many folks whose "special interests" rule the day, thus, that is a big influence why I believe we are there. But, then, that's all politics, right?

Mr. Prez, you're better than what some people give you credit, but your spring house cleaning is overdue.

-R
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KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 38):
Mr. Prez, you're better than what some people give you credit, but your spring house cleaning is overdue.

I agree with you, I don't personally dislike him either. But, you can't give him a pass for his (to use your words, which I like) "current supporting cast of cronies, lapdogs and "yes" men and women." What's the saying, a good reflection of yourself as a person is who you choose to surround yourself with? Or something along those lines - at any rate, these are his people, his closest advisers - who he chose to surround him. If they are screwing up, which you and I seem to believe they are, then it's also his fault - he is the top dog, the big guy, ultimately - the buck stops with him. For a long time I struggled with "I like Bush, but what is he thinking?" Now, I know that his actions speak louder than his words and I believe history will say his was a mediocre at best, failed at worst - presidency.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:18 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Actually, that's incorrect. Most of the UN was against going to war, even after Colin Powell's famous presentation (Note the Iraq war lovers on here: that presentation was about WMD: not freeing Iraq, not getting rid of Saddam not expanding Democracy-WMD. You remember those?).

He's referring to the fact that the UN aided and abetted Saddam. ANC, XJ, 757, it's futile to keep arguing with these clowns. Most of them, do not respect the opinion of those that they sharply disagree with. They use terms such as "ROTF" or "LMAO", or try and dazzle people with anecdotes. They cite the opinions of liberal, so-called scholars and use that as fact to advance their theory. But if I quote Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, or Michael Medved, they call it rubbish. People like Falcon and SOME of the others, just argue and use name calling, like the kooks on the far-left that they are.
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tbar220
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:28 pm

Well its ok. Condi's little trip to Iraq was greeted with only 38 dead bodies, that aint too bad! 38 is pretty low considering recent events...
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KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:42 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 40):
Most of them, do not respect the opinion of those that they sharply disagree with.

So when you call someone "clowns" that is respecting their opinion?

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 40):
They cite the opinions of liberal, so-called scholars and use that as fact to advance their theory.

Depends on who you are talking about - if someone quotes Al Franken, I wouldn't believe it - though it could be true - but there are people on the left who are respectable.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 40):
But if I quote Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, or Michael Medved, they call it rubbish

That's because Hannity and Limbaugh LIE for partisan purposes. I used to listen to them both, now I can't take it because all they seek to do is discredit the other side in any way possible - including lying. Actually Limbaugh is not half as bad as that Hannity, whom I consider quite smug - but that is not why I think he lies, I have heard him lie - repeatedly. Medved I have heard of, but don't know so no comment on him. Just to put it in perspective, if someone quoted Al Franken on here, what would you call it?

You know, I think the lesson that can be learned here is that both sides should try to respect the opinions of the other side. I am so sick and tired of the division in this country - not that everyone should agree all the time, that's not possible. But why can't we have some agreement for the greater good anymore? What ever happened to civilized debate? Also, and this is what you just did, instead of debating the other side you have fallen into the trap - don't debate the opposition, just discredit them as people. I personally think the Founding Fathers would be ashamed of our politicians today - and as much as Hannity (often erroneously) evokes them, I think if they met him in person they would punch him for his behavior.  Not that it would be the right thing to do, I'm just saying.







[Edited 2005-05-16 07:47:13]
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:51 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
To me, you leave pre-emptive attacks to the Imperial Japans of the world-regimes or cells with no honor, and who place no value on human life. Democracies are supposed to be better than that. Between 1948 and 1990, we railed against the USSR for acting in just such a manner. Now, in this case, we're emulating them. I can't be for that, or proud of that.

Falcon, my friend, it's not the pre-emptive attack that was flawed, it was - as it turns out - the reason for it. And comparing us to the USSR and the Japanese Empire of the 20th Century is a tad extreme my friend.

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 26):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
this cuntry

Freudian slip ANC?



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Don't correct it, ANC. It was perfect, talking about Condi!

Dangit - see what I get for posting before my first cup of java at the start of the day . . .  rotfl  . . .  Embarrassment

Quoting KC135R (Reply 32):
I think he left on his own free will, not because he was asked to leave. I suspect he's embarrassed by his association with this administration - but that's just me.

I quite agree. Powell - strictly out of loyalty to his country IMO - stuck out the first term as he agreed to do because he is a man of honor. I'd have paid real US $$$ to have been witness to a meeting or two in the Oval Office between he, Condi Rice (as NSA) and he prior to his departure. I bet those were colorful.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 32):
Well, actually Tenet was Clinton's CIA director who was still around from then, but at any rate he should have been canned, I agree.

You're mincing words KC - CLinton may have hired him, but Bush retained him, therefore, he was Bush's CIA director . . . no matter who he may have served previously.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 32):
I don't even see it that way, it's not Bush's job to gather intel - he has to trust what he's got - so had he said Tenet screwed up it would have made me think Bush had the best intentions, but bad info.

Concur. So when all the Bush-haters begin to spout lies, lies, lies, I have to laugh. I can't imagine being lied to on such a grand scale . . . not saying it isn't possible . . . just don't see it. The intel sucked, period. Powell himself made some extremely pointed and direct comment about that very thing - stating he was more than embarrased by hius presentation to the UN based on that intel - several weeks ago. Bush can't do it all - and he has to trust his staff. Unfortunately, when his staff fucks the dog he tends to praise them rather than firing them . . . I haven't figured that out?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 38):
Mr. Prez, you're better than what some people give you credit, but your spring house cleaning is overdue.

Yup, by about 2 years . . . start with Dumsfeld and toss Condi out while you're at it.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 40):
ANC, XJ, 757, it's futile to keep arguing with these clowns. Most of them, do not respect the opinion of those that they sharply disagree with

Actually, JetJack, I have a great deal of respect for Falcon and a few others here that I rarely agree with on this particular subject. I may not like their style in their posts, but at least they can present a quantifiable argument instead of simple babble like so many others on A-Net . . .  Smile
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KC135R
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 2:58 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43):
I haven't figured that out?

From what I can gather, in things I have read and so forth, GWB is extremely - almost fanatically so - into loyalty. Which is not necessarily bad, but can be a liability when that is all you see in a person. "Well Tenet was loyal to me, so I will say he was an exceptional leader at the CIA" - bad move Mr. President, now it looks like you don't care about the intel fiasco.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43):
You're mincing words KC - CLinton may have hired him, but Bush retained him, therefore, he was Bush's CIA director . . . no matter who he may have served previously.

Agreed, I merely pointed it out so that the Bush bashers would not focus on that particular fact. GWB did not hire this guy, I suppose we could say he did rehire him though, as you point out.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 3:19 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
So when you call someone "clowns" that is respecting their opinion?

Calling someone a clown is one thing, but calling another a dumbass, idiot is something completely different. Besides, why the heck should I respect someone like that?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43):
Actually, JetJack, I have a great deal of respect for Falcon and a few others here that I rarely agree with on this particular subject. I may not like their style in their posts, but at least they can present a quantifiable argument instead of simple babble like so many others on A-Net

Indeed. Because you've taken the high road. Falcon has got it in for me or something. He just goes into a tirade anytime I post something that opposes his position. Very unclassy. He may disagree with something, but he doesn't have resort to namecalling. Doesn't bother me all that much really. This board is purely entertainment. I casually wait throw jab when I can, or when I may give a rats-ass.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
That's because Hannity and Limbaugh LIE for partisan purposes.

And what is the distinction from them and Air America? They're all that way. Limbaugh/Hannity or Franken/Malloy

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
But why can't we have some agreement for the greater good anymore? What ever happened to civilized debate?

That's what i'd like to know. None of my friends agree with me politically, well very few. But that doesn't make them any less than my best friends.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
Actually Limbaugh is not half as bad as that Hannity, whom I consider quite smug

Limbaugh is more entertainment, he's funny and I do agree with some of the things he says, but not everything. Hannity is another story. He's usually on right after Rush, and leads off with what Rush was talking about. I sometimes listen to him, but seldomly.

I don't have anything against my A-net adversary, but he seems to think so. I rarely respond to him anymore.
Made from jets!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 45):
They're all that way. Limbaugh/Hannity or Franken/Malloy

Same shit, different political party. It's all spin - a lot like the threads in Non-Av!  biggrin 

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 45):
This board is purely entertainment.

You must REALLY enjoy CORULEZ05 then huh  rotfl  . . . he's my favorite 'target of opportunity'.
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ACDC8
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 3:36 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
I heard it on CNN when flipping channels, and inadvertently let out a "what an asshole", with the kids in the room-and quickly got reprimanded, and rightly so, by my wife.

That must be one of the funniest things I've read all day. I could just picture it. Absolute classic!  Big grin
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 3:36 pm

I wonder what dream world Bush and his good ol' boys are living in. They're all delusional. They're so far removed from the real America that they manufacture facts to satisfy their own beliefs.

A liar that lies long enough starts to believe his lies to be the truth...and thinks God and his witnesses don't notice.

Bush and his henchmen are avoiding the public and press. He doesn't give enough prime-time TV addresses to the nation. He meets with the press only when he has a hare-brained scheme to hawk. He obviously has something to hide.

It seems no one has the balls to tell him how to speak or pronounce words above the level of an eight year old kid. NUCULAR!! YEEEEE HAAAAA!! Ride 'em cowboy!

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Condi Spins Another Lie About Iraq

Mon May 16, 2005 3:58 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
I used to listen to them both, now I can't take it because all they seek to do is discredit the other side in any way possible - including lying. Actually Limbaugh is not half as bad as that Hannity, whom I consider quite smug - but that is not why I think he lies, I have heard him lie - repeatedly.

Yeah, they all do, but Limbaugh is informative, and, a big plus, he's often more patient with those that disagree with him (a complete opposite with that of Sean Insanity).

Quoting KC135R (Reply 42):
and as much as Hannity (often erroneously) evokes them, I think if they met him in person they would punch him for his behavior.

 rotfl  A handful of them might shoot him, but these are different times.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 45):
Limbaugh is more entertainment, he's funny and I do agree with some of the things he says, but not everything. Hannity is another story.

Hannity is almost not that bad of a guy, but when he gets Garofalo on his show, it's a jr. high, playground hissyfit of who can top the other. That's when they both up and all-out stink. A good friend pointed out Hannity's humorous insecurity - ever notice how he's begging for people to listen? "All we need is just 3 hours of your day, JUST THREE, That's All We're Asking!". Give it up, Sean. 3 hours is a lot, and somewhere between 2 hrs. and 57 min. and 3 hrs. too much for your show. Hannity has good intro music, his news coverage at the top goes from good to sometimes so-so but then it's back to bashing liberals (a blood relative to Libslayer?) and having his overinflated ego stroked by his radio audience.

-R
Living the American Dream

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