ANCFlyer
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 9:14 am

This news just posted 18 min ago.

Apparently, moderate/centrist senators, including John McCain (R-AZ), have come to an agreement on the Judicial nominations . . . I didn't see the names of the other senators involved in this Yahoo blurb or the one on AOL. Yahoo is posted here, AOL needs a sign in.

Hopefully these "gentlemen" will get this over and done, and quit this elementary school bigger penis contest and get on with their business.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/filibuster_fight
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SFOMEX
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 9:27 am

"Under the terms, Democrats would agree to oppose any attempt to filibuster — and thus block final votes — on the confirmation of Priscilla Owen, Janice Rogers Brown and William Pryor. There is "no commitment to vote for or against" the filibuster against two other conservative nominees, Henry Saad and William Myers."

I assume the two gentlemen from Michigan (not sure about the state) would get an up or down vote too, thus letting Saad and Myers nominations as the only ones effectively blocked.

IMHO, it's a good deal.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
dl021
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 9:31 am

Well...its good to see them actually agreeing to get something done.

Maybe they can figure out how they did it and do it again.
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L.1011
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 9:44 am

Also involved in this are Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and Joe Lieberman (D-CT).

I congratulate these 14 Senators on averting what would have been a very nasty situation.

I have found myself very dissapointed with Minority Leader Reid (D-NV), who I thought would be a centrist willing to comprimise but has turned out as rabid and unreasonable are Nancy Pelosi and her bretheren.

Senator Reid was quoted as saying this: "We have sent President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and the radical right of the Republican party an undeniable message....the abuse of power will not be tolerated."

I have a number of questions for the Senator.

Who the hell is "we"? You weren't involved in this.
What the hell kind of message does a compromise send?
Why is your party acting as though it won this fight? No one won, it was a compromise. You're giving us the floor votes we asked for!
 
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jetjack74
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Hopefully these "gentlemen" will get this over and done, and quit this elementary school bigger penis contest and get on with their business.

Quoting Dingy Harry Reid "We have sent President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and the radical right of the Republican party an undeniable message....the abuse of power will not be tolerated."

Well, class is not something Harry Reid has.
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SFOMEX
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 3):
Senator Reid was quoted as saying this: "We have sent President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and the radical right of the Republican party an undeniable message....the abuse of power will not be tolerated."

He's an idiot. Moderate democrats had to do his job and now he is trying to score some cheap political points.

[Edited 2005-05-24 02:52:51]
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b757300
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:59 am

As usual the RINOs (aka Democrat lites) sell out the party and their supporters all to get the praise from other RINOs, the Democrats, and the media. Hell will come to them in the next election cycle.
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Falcon84
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:37 am

B757300, if you can't see that these "RINO's" as you call them-who are, in fact, more the real Republican than you or your right wing extremists friends-may have just saved 7 to 8 of those 10 nominations for the President. It was their common sense-which the extremes of either party seem to lack-that led to this compromise, and will keep the Senate from becoming so polarized that it might never get fixed.

What we need is MORE, not LESS, of these so-called RINO's in the Senate and in the GOP, who aren't so beholden to extremist views, and treating the minority as a slave.

Congrats to these 14 Senators, from both parties, who had enough fortitude and common sense to overide the confrontationalists of both sides.
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dl021
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 12:00 pm

At some point the Senators have to figure out how to move the business of the American people forward....

calling them RINOs and the dems whatever their hardliners call their moderates will accomplish nothing but piss everyone off and create more hard feelings.

I'd call getting the 7 or so nominations to the up or down vote a definite improvement over the situation this morning.

They were headed for idiocy and this headed that off.

I still blame the Democrats for the problem there. The abuse of the filibuster action in the truly unprecedented way, and I'm talking the systematic effort....not isolated incidents over a hundred year period.....caused this situation. It has been an effort to embarrass the president, and is sure to cause major problems down the road.
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Falcon84
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
I still blame the Democrats for the problem there. The abuse of the filibuster action in the truly unprecedented way, and I'm talking the systematic effort....not isolated incidents over a hundred year period.....caused this situation. It has been an effort to embarrass the president, and is sure to cause major problems down the road.

There's where we differ. I blame the GOP and Bush, for their thirst for absolute, uncontrolled power in dominating this government, and their disregard for the minority. It's easy to see that in the fact that Bush as put forth very far right-wing nominees for these posts, because he feels his party can simply dismiss Democratic opposition. Well, he found out otherwise, didn't he?
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ANCFlyer
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
still blame the Democrats for the problem there. The



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
There's where we differ. I blame the GOP and Bush, for their thirst for absolute, uncontrolled power in dominating this government

I agree/disagree with both of you, my esteemed friends . . . I blame both sides of the aisle - and not just the members in recent history . . . but for the last decade or so . . . more so in very recent history and definitely during this judicial nomination/confirmation debacle.

I am totally frustrated with the partisan politics in DC. The country is not moving forward on issues that are of equal or greater importance than these judicial posting because damn near every politician in DC is trying to show who has the bigger muscle! It's almost to ridiculous proportions my friends. Our own Senator Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) returned to DC today, and has yet to make comment on where she stands . . . .not so amazing given she's a junior senator and not worth a shit from the get go; couldn't find her ass with both hands and a squad of Cav Scouts. Our other Senator, Mr. Ted Stevens (R-AK) has stated his position - pretty moderate one - but has continued to tow the party line . . . . very disappointing.

Falcon, DL021 . . . both parties are to blame here gents. Both parties tried to trump the other. Both parties tried to out-politic and out-maneuver the other, at the expense of their constituency. It's a shame. It's preposterous that our government has become so petty in this vein.


I'm glad the 14 or so Senators were able to get the job done. But I'll make this wager - I bet I can name names of the Senators that were NOT involved in this negotiation . . . and the names would come from both sides of the aisle. They will be the usual crowd of Extremist Partisan Politicians that hold the Senate and thus the country's momentum virtually hostage playing their childish games.

OK, my friends . . . Rant Concluded . . . for now   

[Edited 2005-05-24 05:44:47]
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tbar220
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 4:19 pm

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this exactly what the Republicans wanted in the first place?

Unless I understood it, the deal basically said "If you don't use the fillibuster, we won't get rid of it." Now Owens gets her vote, which she will clearly win. Democrats aren't allowed to use the fillibuster against future judges or supreme court nominees, and if they do then Frist will call a vote to eliminate the fillibuster. This was the deal. This is downright scary!

Am I missing something here? The Republicans have basically eliminated the fillibuster and gotten their judge through.
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ANCFlyer
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 4:45 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 11):
Democrats aren't allowed to use the fillibuster against future judges or supreme court nominees,

The fillibuter is still a go . . . in an Extreme Circumstance . . . . I believe that's how it was worded . . .

And the "nuclear option" is no longer on the table . . . so the way I see it both sides "won" if you can call the outcome of this "biggest penis" contest a victory . . .

The country can move forward - I hope. The nominees get the vote in the Senate. The Fillibuster is safe for the moment - as it should be - and a bunch of senators, Frist, Kennedy and others look like asses (still) and some look like heroes - McCain and Lieberman et al.

The whole situation Tbar is bullshit. As I mentioned in my post to Falcon and DL021 above - so much time spent on this rather than equally as important issues. I mean, damn, we have a budget to pass, a war in progress on two fronts, airlines tanking, gas prices in orbit . . . and these "gentlemen" (and ladies) are going to guns over some judges! Give me a break . . . . .

Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge we will be picking a Chief Justice within the next 2-3 years . . . now, that is a time when a fillibuster and all of this politicing would be necessary . . . it will be interesting to see how that pans out. I have to think, behind the closed doors, everyone acknowledged that one must pick their battles . . . and this shouldn't be one of them . . . .wait until we have a really big fight to handle - the Chief Justice will be that fight . . . .
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Falcon84
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Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
the Chief Justice will be that fight . . . .

Yes, especially if Bush has the gonads-which I think he will-to nominate Antonin Scalia, who is a lunatic.
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
the Chief Justice will be that fight . . . .

I disagree, the only fights will be when a liberal justice steps down. The democrats know that replacing a conservative with a conservative is a zero sum game. They're going to save their bullets for a fight when it really matter - that is, when a justice that can shift the court's position on controversial issues steps down.

I'll even come out right now and predict that the justices may pair up and resign together or in close proximity - one lib / one conservative. That will allow the President to appoint two justices and not tip the scales.

As for the Chief stepping down in 2 - 3 years that's crazy. The chief has 2 or 3 months left. I'm 99% certain that the Chief won't be their come the first Monday in October 2005.
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Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:20 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
I disagree, the only fights will be when a liberal justice steps down.

Wrong. IF Bush tries to put Scalia as CJ, there'll be a fight, big-time. "Liberals" were willing to go along with his choice as a member of the court-the vote was 100-0 for his confirmation, but I think, now seeing how really far out the guy is as a Justice, the democrats will rightly try to fight his nomination to the head of the court. He's a lunatic of the first degree, and has no business being CJ.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
I'll even come out right now and predict that the justices may pair up and resign together or in close proximity - one lib / one conservative. That will allow the President to appoint two justices and not tip the scales.

Are you saying Bush would nominate one judge who is conservative and one who is liberal, to balance the scales? ROTFL! Dream on, man! This man and his minions in Congress want to pack the court with ideological Republican judges, nothing else! He wants to end the political neutrality of the court and make it another rubber stamp for ultra-conservatism.

If you believe that, you're very, very naive.
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
If you believe that, you're very, very naive.

Falcon84 -

I find it ironic that you are calling anyone naive give your past history of predictions on this forum. Your poor record of predicting anything political even caused you to abandon your previous username to escape the laughable record that it contained.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
He's a lunatic of the first degree, and has no business being CJ.

I challange you to pick any of his opinions and debate the Constitutional argument he makes. Again it is easy to call a man a lunatic but then refuse to provide specific details of what creates his lunacy. I bet you haven't read a single one of his decisions that you could debate intelligently. Instead, in typical liberal fashion, you disagree with his position on the matter and therefore try to marginalize the man. Put up or shut up.

What you don't appreciate is that the job of a US Supreme Court Justice is to determine the Constitutionality of a piece of legislation with respect to our Constitution - not with respect to a desired policy outcome (or the rule of law in South Africa as other justices have started to cite in recent decision).

In typical liberal fashion you support a court that creates law to achieve your policy goals because the American electorate has repeatedly refused to support your agenda. It's been 10 years now that the GOP has been kicking democratic ass across the board in elections.

So please Alphafalcon, please list one opinion written by Justice Scalia and let's debate it. If you can't I think it will be clear to all who is the lunatic who so obsesses with the electoral successes of right that it consumes his existence.

What are you going to say on Jan 20, 2009 - Jan 21, 2013 can't come fast enough? Are you going to have to change your username a third time to escape what you've written. Please, please, please let's debate the facts, because Scalia's opinions are brilliant and your track record speaks for itself.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
And the "nuclear option" is no longer on the table

Almost...

"In light of the spirit and continuing commitments made in this agreement," Republicans said they would oppose any attempt to make changes in the application of filibuster rules — a pledge that Sen. Mike DeWine (search), R-Ohio said at the news conference was conditional on Democrats upholding their end of the deal.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157431,00.html

CliffsNotes:

Democrats: We'll give you Owen, Brown, and Pryor if you don't take away our right to fillibuster, and we won't use it on future nominees except in extraordinary circumstances.

Republicans: We promise not to execute the Option as long as you don't fillibuster our future nominees under the "extraordinary circumstances" cloak.

I am going to have to agree with Tbar here. This seems like more of a win for the Republicans than the Democrats, because the Deal essentially gives the Republicans their judges that are currently on the table AND the option of the Option down the road.
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Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:56 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
I find it ironic that you are calling anyone naive give your past history of predictions on this forum. Your poor record of predicting anything political even caused you to abandon your previous username to escape the laughable record that it contained.

ROTFL. What does that have to do with anything. If YOU honestly think Bush is going to nominate a moderate or a liberal to join The Supremes, you're just nuts. He won't. He's the last person who would nomiante somene who doesn't agree with his narrow, limited view of law, Pope!

He will nominate just what he's nominated now-right wing judges, who would rubber stamp anything a conservative does, and would block anything anyone less conservative would do. He is NOT going to "balance" the court by nominating a liberal judge. He may not nominate an ultra-conservative, like Prisclla Owen, but he certainly won't nominate anyone who is pro-abortion, pro-workers' rights, etc.

Again, I hold my comment-you're incredibly naive in that belief.

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
In typical liberal fashion

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

God, it gets boring hearing right wing loonies say "typical liberal fashion". You don't even know what that means anymore, man. Pitiful.

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
What are you going to say on Jan 20, 2009 - Jan 21, 2013 can't come fast enough?

No, because I cannot conceive of anyone being a worse president than the one we currently have, so I'll stand by it. And what the hell is it to you anyway? You don't like it, Pope, you can lump it on your ultra-conservative head.  Smile
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 10:59 pm

And in typical Alphafalcon fashion he refused to rise to the challange. Come on man if Scalia is such a lunatic you should be able to find just one opinion that you believe you could use to show this lunacy.

My assumption that you've never read a single opinion seems to be right on target.

The clock is ticking to the next alphafalcon name change.

Just one opinion falcon, just one . . . . Put up or shut up.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:12 pm

Pope, I'm flattered by the attention you give me, friend. I've told you what I think of Scalia, Pope. He's anti-worker, he's anti-choice. He is in my mind out of the mainstream of this country-just like you are. I'll hold my opinion, friend, and I have NOTHING to prove to a nutcase like yourself.

So, you can keep up your obsession with me, or accept what I have said. Agian, if you don't like what I've said, that's too bad, Pope. I'm not wasting any further time on a fantast of the right like yourself. You are not worth it.
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:20 pm

Just one opinion Alphafalcon. Put up or shut up. You keep ducking the challange. You called Scalia a lunatic - but can't seem to cite a single opinion that you believe is wrong.

It's easy to make ridiculous unsubstantiated statements when nobody calls you to the mat. It's much harder to make those statements when you've got to prove them.

Come on, it shouldn't be that hard to find a single opinion written by the "lunatic" in over 20 years on the bench. I've bet you've never read a single opinion.

You are just a lemming following the other liberal lemmings off the cliff. Try thinking for yourself instead of mindlessly repeating the talking points of your fellow libs. Look up the opinions. Research them. Think about whether or not the arguments are justified. Then form a conclusion.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:21 pm

Where's that bottle of Obsession Captoveur keeps around here.....
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:25 pm

And again the challange is ducked.

Just one opinion Alphafalcon; just one . . .
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:26 pm

I know I had it up on the shelf last week......
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Logan22L
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:27 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
both parties are to blame here gents. Both parties tried to trump the other. Both parties tried to out-politic and out-maneuver the other, at the expense of their constituency. It's a shame. It's preposterous that our government has become so petty in this vein.

It's been this way for a long, long time, and I'm wondering of the embarrassment of this situation will have any effect on the attitudes of both sides moving forward. I mean, it's obvious that when two sides act so partisanly (is this a new word?), the only way to get somewhere is to compromise. For anyone on either side to suggest that either party sold out their consistuents by compromising shows a complete naiveity and lack of understanding of how to truly get things done.

Logan
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Tue May 24, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
I know I had it up on the shelf last week......

Just one example of the lunacy Alphafalcon. Just one . . .
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tbar220
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 2:45 am

Falcon,

I think he's right, you should back up your opinion with a little research and facts. Why don't you look up some of Scalia's opinions and base an opinion off of them yourself? He hasn't asked you to do something that hard, or are you just too afraid of changing your mind?

Pope,

Stop throwing around the word liberal as if it is some sort of insult, you've done it to me before and you seem to do it all the time. If you want to have honest debate, making generalizations about somebody or an entire group of people doesn't really help.

ANC,

The way I see it, the fillibuster is dead as long as the Republicans are in power. The Democrats say they wont use it. The Republicans say they will get rid of it if the Democrats do use it. The Republicans got their judges through under the threat of the elimination of the fillibuster. Who wins here? The Republicans. Who loses? Democracy!! Not the Democrats, but democracy! The rights of the minority, thats the loss here.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Yes, especially if Bush has the gonads-which I think he will-to nominate Antonin Scalia, who is a lunatic

Mr. Reid once said that he may disagree with Justice Scalia on many issues, but he has to acknowledge his intellectual capacity and that he may support him to become CJ. If the radical leader of the Democrat minority in the Senate thinks that way, I think Mr. Scalia has a big chance to get the post.

I also think Democrats won't fight his hypothetical nomination. They will save their intolerance for the conservative nominee who would replace a liberal Justice.
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KyleLosAngeles
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 4:02 am

As soon as they reached their 'agreement' they quickly stood before the cameras, smiling and congratulating each other.

They created the crisis in the first place and should not be receiving any accolades for getting over it.
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dvk
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 5:40 am

I love how the conservatives bash Reid, but say nothing about Frist, who dissapointedly pronounced that the compromise "falls short". Shouldn't Frist have been leading, too? Shouldn't the majority leader assist in achieving compromise? Reid could hardly just roll over when Frist was being completely belligerent in consummate W-style fashion. What about W himself? He thinks all his nominees should be rubber-stamped onto the bench. He's only met opposition on ten of >200 nominees. Why doesn't HE, for once, try working in a bipartisan manner? The power-drunk Republicans, except for a shrinking number of moderates, believe they should have absolute control. The Democrats have to fight like hell, because most of the Republican majority doesn't give a flying f**k about the >45% of Americans who disagree with them.
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Pope
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 30):
I love how the conservatives bash Reid, but say nothing about Frist

Frist got ripped on today's Rush Limbaugh show.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
jaysit
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 6:38 am

The upshot is that 2 incredibly heinous and stupid judges - Pryor and Janice Rogers Brown - will be appointed to the Appellate courts. Justice Brown is a certified nutjob.

The other woman - Priscilla Owen - is at least a smart cookie.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 27):
Who loses? Democracy!!

I agree, and essentially said this when I was ranting early on in this thread to Falcon and DL021 . . . see this . . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
both parties are to blame here gents. Both parties tried to trump the other. Both parties tried to out-politic and out-maneuver the other, at the expense of their constituency. It's a shame. It's preposterous that our government has become so petty in this vein.

As long as we continue to have the ultra-partisan politics in DC, the country - the democracy - will stagnate . . . and it's getting worse . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 30):
Shouldn't Frist have been leading, too? Shouldn't the majority leader assist in achieving compromise?

Show me the name "Harry Reid" on this list, and I'll promise to vote for him in '08:

We firmly believe this agreement is consistent with the traditions of the United States Senate that we as Senators seek to uphold.

Signed by:

Ben Nelson, D-Neb.
Mike DeWine, R-Ohio
Joe Lieberman, D-Conn.
Susan Collins, R-Maine
Mark Pryor, D-Ark.
Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.
Lincoln Chafee, R-R.I.
John McCain, R-Ariz.
John Warner, R-Va.
Robert Byrd, D-W.Va.
Mary Landrieu, D-La.
Olympia Snowe, R-Maine
Ken Salazar, R-Colo.
Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157513,00.html
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SFOMEX
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 32):
Justice Brown is a certified nutjob

Why? Care to elaborate?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 7:47 am

Hadn't seen this list until now . . .

First, let me say I'm disappointed that Ted Stevens (R-AK) isn't on the list . . . he and Inouye (D-HI) are friends, and usually stick together.

I am very surprised to see Robert Byrd (D-WV) on the list as he's one "gentleman" I consider an extremeist liberal democrat. But hey, good for him.

Susan Collins (R-ME) is also a pretty centrist senator. I've heard good things about her from a retired Colonel friend of mine in Brunswick.

And of course, McCain (R-AZ) and Warner (R-VA). While I sometimes find Warner a but more right that I appreciate, I think he really does try to do what's best for the constituency and the country. McCain, of course, is awesome.

Conspicuousy missing are the usual extremist, way too liberal, way too left wingers: Kennedy, Pelosi, Boxer . . . and the way to conservation, way too right in company with Frist . . .

Frist is pissing me off in that he's leaning farther and farther to the right as the days go by . . . already running for President in '08 I believe . . . .
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jaysit
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 7:59 am

Chaffee, Collins and Snowe are the few real moderates left. I admire Collins in particular. Where would the nation be without those few centrist New England Republicans?

As far as Justice Brown goes, I think she is a nutjob because of her views which are frankly, rather nutty.

For example, her dissent in a 1999 case, Aguilar v. Avis Rent A Car Systems is troubling. In that case, the trial court and the California Supreme Court found that the employer had violated the California Fair Housing and Employment Act by creating a hostile work environment through the use of racial slurs directed at Latino employees.

Brown dissented, argued that the First Amendment protects the use of racial slurs in the workplace - even when it becomes Constitutionally illegal race discrimination. Her dissent virtually ignored several Supreme Court precedents (she didnt even bother to cite them - it was so bad !). She also stated that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employment discrimination, violates the First Amendment and is therefore unconstitutional.

In Justice Brown's world being called the N-word or being sexually harassed on the job are all par for the course.

You are welcome to think of her as a Justice par excellence.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 8:13 am

About Aguilar v. Avis Rent A Car Systems, I think that reading part of her dissenting opinion is better than throwing nutjob-like adjectives:

As Justice Werdegar recognizes, this case pits freedom of speech against racial equality, and because the tension between freedom and equality cannot be reconciled, the best that can be achieved is a rough equilibrium. (Conc. opn., ante, at pp. 27, 29.) In this regard, the California Constitution strikes the appropriate balance by distinguishing between prior restraints and all other regulations of speech. Article I, section 2, subdivision (a), of the state Constitution provides: "Every person may freely speak, write and publish his or her sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of this right. A law may not restrain or abridge liberty of speech or press." In Dailey v. Superior Court (1896) 112 Cal. 94, 97 (Dailey), discussing an earlier, almost identical version of this provision, we said, "The right of the citizen to freely speak, write, and publish his sentiments is unlimited, but he is responsible at the hands of the law for an abuse of that right. He shall have no censor over him to whom he must apply for permission to speak, write, or publish, but he shall be held accountable to the law for what he speaks, what he writes, and what he publishes. It is patent that this right to speak, write, and publish, cannot be abused until it is exercised, and before it is exercised there can be no responsibility."

Since Dailey, we have upheld injunctions against speech, but only proscribable speech such as obscenity or fighting words, or where other compelling circumstances made injunctive relief absolutely necessary. (Cf. People ex rel. Gallo v. Acuna (1996) 14 Cal.4th 1090.) No such circumstances exist here, where the speaker has merely expressed disgusting opinions and may well have ceased doing so. Forcibly prohibiting expression may only reinforce the animosities we are trying to subvert. In permitting speech, but requiring the speaker to pay damages for injurious speech, the California Constitution preserves both the freedom of the speaker and the equal dignity of the audience. This compromise not only discourages injurious speech, but may also foster positive change in the speaker's attitudes. Accordingly, I would draw the line in the same place as the California Constitution and find the injunction at issue here to be an unconstitutional prior restraint of speech."
None of us on this court condones ethnic and racial discrimination in the workplace, but the issue in this case is speech, not just discrimination. Speech is unpleasant sometimes. It may be disgusting. It may be offensive. Contrary to the nursery rhyme, it may even be injurious. But, with few exceptions, none of which applies, the state and federal Constitutions prohibit courts from using their injunctive power as a surgical instrument to extricate disfavored ideas from the popular discourse, and this principle applies even here where the ideas in question were, from what we can tell from the limited record, both offensive and abhorrent.

One of the truths we hold to be self-evident is that a government that tells its citizens what they may say will soon be dictating what they may think. But in a country that puts such a high premium on freedom, we cannot allow ourselves to be the captives of orthodox, culturally imposed thinking patterns. Indeed, I can conceive no imprisonment so complete, no subjugation so absolute, no debasement so abject as the enslavement of the mind.

Fundamentally, this is a case about equality and freedom. Thus, it is a case about our most basic political ideals; about our highest aspirations and our greatest failures; our toughest challenges and our deepest fears. It is about a bafflingly elusive dream of equality and the freedom, not immune from abuse, to speak words that make others more than uncomfortable. It is a case about equality and freedom and the irreconcilable tension between the two. We are all the beneficiaries of the freedom the Constitution guarantees, and we all pay its costs, even though the price may sometimes be anguish.

I dissent.

BROWN, J.

I don't agree with her, but I think she makes some interesting points. She is far, very far of being a nutjob
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jaysit
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 8:19 am

don't agree with her, but I think she makes some interesting points. She is far, very far of being a nutjob.

Fine.
Think what you want.

Her following comment is telling:

"None of us on this court condones ethnic and racial discrimination in the workplace, but the issue in this case is speech, not just discrimination."

She conveniently ignored a whole line of cases that stated the contrary. Very easy for one to do when one is part of the dissent. You're rarely called on it. Until, of course, you're up for a confirmation hearing.

About Aguilar v. Avis Rent A Car Systems, I think that reading part of her dissenting opinion is better than throwing nutjob-like adjectives.

I think that understanding the framework of the law is far, far better than selectively cutting and pasting something off of Lexis.

You can cut, paste, and probably read.

I, on the other hand, can understand.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 39):
I, on the other hand, can understand.

Maybe when you read in Hindi, but I don't see that skill regarding her dissenting opinion. Otherwise, you wouldn't twist her words in order to accommodate them to your conservatives-are-evil world.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 39):
"None of us on this court condones ethnic and racial discrimination in the workplace, but the issue in this case is speech, not just discrimination."

She conveniently ignored a whole line of cases that stated the contrary.

She took an oath to uphold the Constitution itself, not to uphold her predecessors' cases. She clearly stated that here:

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 38):
It is about a bafflingly elusive dream of equality and the freedom...to speak words that make others more than uncomfortable. It is a case about equality and freedom and the irreconcilable tension between the two. We are all the beneficiaries of the freedom the Constitution guarantees, and we all pay its costs, even though the price may sometimes be anguish.

The Constitution (First Amendment) guarantees freedom of speech, not freedom of offense, insult, or criticism.
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jaysit
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 9:43 am

Maybe when you read in Hindi, but I don't see that skill regarding her dissenting opinion. Otherwise, you wouldn't twist her words in order to accommodate them to your conservatives-are-evil world.

Actually even when translated in Hindi, it shows that she ignored the entire line of First Amendment cases and selectively applied the law in her dissent.
Even when translated in French, Swahili, Greek, Arabic, American sign language.

Perhaps, we could have an ESL translator help you out?

She took an oath to uphold the Constitution itself, not to uphold her predecessors' cases.

So did her predecessors, and so did the Legislature, and so did the drafters of the Fair Housing and Employment Act, an act that has passed constitutional muster over and over again. This case was a tough one that was at the uneasy border between workplace discrimination and First Amendment rights. The law doesn't just start at the Constitution and end there. The Constitution is a general document that was written specifically as such to allow study and intepretation and application. An entire line of First Amendment cases have preceded Justice Brown, and have faced inquiry by minds far finer than hers.

An amicus brief submitted sums it up quite well.

"On a soapbox, on a public street, an individual in a free society may express racially demeaning views. The government may not ban expression simply because most people find it offensive or even outrageous. However, Avis’ categorical assertion that racist speech is protected expression overlooks the second part to the constitutional inquiry: the context of the speech. This case is not Hyde Park corner. In work situations, employees are unable to respond freely to a supervisors’ derogatory remarks without risking their livelihoods, and that unlike people on a public street, employees may not walk away from racial insults."

Thus, both the trial Court and the Appellate Court the court determined that racial epithets could be barred in order to prevent the "secondary effects" of creating a hostile working environment.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 10:30 am

Just heard on the Sean Hannity Show: Frist, on a live phone interview, pledged to implement the Option if ANY future nominees are deemed an "extraordinary circumstance" and are fillibustered.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 43):
Just heard on the Sean Hannity Show: Frist, on a live phone interview, pledged to implement the Option if ANY future nominees are deemed an "extraordinary circumstance" and are fillibustered.

I simply don't understand . . .

He becomes the MFIC in the Senate and loses his mind?

Now, most on this board know I'm conservative - usually - in my thinking, but this borders on the bizarre . . .

What I hear him saying is, "Play the game our way or we'll shove it up your ass?" Am I missing something?

Geez, you know how much it reaaaaaaly pains me to side with the democrats . . . but the more I hear Frist run his mouth, the worse it appears to become.

On another note - same subject, I sent another letter to Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) based on her interview on local Anchorage news this evening . . . talk about avoid the questions and beat around the bush - any bush . . . no not that bush, the metaphorical bush . . . what an idiot. She still hasn't stated her position on this issue, and I called her on it. I'll likely get another form letter from her like I have on past subjects. Like I said, she couldn't find her ass with both hands a squad of Cav Scouts. . . . .
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Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 43):
Just heard on the Sean Hannity Show: Frist, on a live phone interview, pledged to implement the Option if ANY future nominees are deemed an "extraordinary circumstance" and are fillibustered.

Anyone else get the feeling this guy WANTS to use the nuclear option? That he WANTS to shut down the Senate, as some sort of political ploy?

If this is true-and I wouldn't watch that blowhard Hannity for any amount of money-than this could signal that the GOP leadership is hell-bent on simply becoming a rubber-stamp for Mr. Bush's nominees.

If this is true, the onus, as far as I'm concerned, is squarely on the GOP leadership, and no one else.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
What I hear him saying is, "Play the game our way or we'll shove it up your ass?" Am I missing something?

I know you may disagree with my take on this, ANC, but I think that's what the leadership of the GOP has wanted all along. It sure seems that way, if what is being attributed to Frist is true.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 11:59 am

Well . . . Falcon my friend . . .
Listening to and reading the above . . . .

I would have to tentatively agree . . .

I think Frist is out for a power play. I also think Frist isn't smart enough to have concocted this all alone.

I mean, here's the evidence:

We have a "biggest penis" contest going on over judicial nominees. Side A threatens fillibuster and side B says, screw you, we'll declare that illegal.

So, along comes some guys from both sides - who have their heads out of their asses - and compromise is reached.

And then . . .

A guy from side A (Ried) says, but we will still Fillibuster if we want.

A guy from side B (Frist) say, but only if we don't use the nuclear option and eliminate that tactic.

WTF is wrong with these people.

Falcon, if by the GOP leadership you mean Bush, I don't know if you're right or not. If by GOP leadership you mean the Senate leadership, then I'm almost ready to agree . . . I'm still reading and trying to research . . . but, it ain't lookin' good so far bud . . .
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Falcon84
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 46):
Falcon, if by the GOP leadership you mean Bush, I don't know if you're right or not. If by GOP leadership you mean the Senate leadership, then I'm almost ready to agree . .

I look at it this way: a "mere" Senate Majority Leader doesn't just do this on his own, without the approval, tacit or overt, of the Big Man on Campus, and for the GOP, that's the president. It would fit Bush's M/O, would it not? He hid behind others when John McCain was viciously attacked in '00 in South Carolina; he did the same in '04 with John Kerry. Why not now?

I agree, and I'm not ready to say it's Bush, but I just can't believe that Frist isn't doing this without the behind-the-scene backing of the president. It's just too big a political move to contemplate without the president.
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dl021
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 12:06 pm

Now that I have seen that it is only three rather than 7 I am not quite so satisfied with the results as I was this morning when I was still misinformed.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 46):
. I also think Frist isn't smart enough to have concocted this all alone.

Frist is exceptionally smart. He's the one who organized the retaking of the Senate 4 years ago. WHat he has yet to display is a charismatic leadership style and a willingness to go for the throat, a' la Democrat style, until now.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Filibuster Averted, Senators Have Agreement

Wed May 25, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
st is exceptionally smart.

OK, perhaps I'll rephrase - you're saying the same thing as I, just different wording.

I don't think Frist has the balls to go to the mat with the Democrats. I think someone is shoving a cattle prod up his postierior in order to maneuver him.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 47):
a "mere" Senate Majority Leader doesn't just do this on his own, without the approval, tacit or overt, of the Big Man on Campus,

I'm not convinced we have Bush in the ball game yet. I am convinced Frist is not driving the bus alone.

I would suggest, however, that a "mere" Senate Majority Leader has a lot more horsepower than your post might suggest.
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