TUNisia
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What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:10 pm

The though of what might be outside of our Universe has been on my mind a lot lately. I'd like to know what you all think is outside the "borders" of our Universe.

1) Where is our Universe in relation to anything else? (i.e. if the Universe was a dot on a piece of paper... what could be outside of that dot)

2) How did the Universe form? (where did everything originate from, what set everything into motion)

3) Some scientists say that beyond the Universe is "nothing" (black and 0 degree temp), but isn't "nothing" still something?...

4) If there is nothing beyond the Universe, then "nothing" is occupying space. The concept of space is in fact something, isn't it?

5) What force would possibly define the borders of whatever is beyond the Universe?

I'm sure these questions might sound a bit odd, but I'd appreciate some input.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
SLC1
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:50 pm

These are the questions that Stephen Hawking himself really couldn't give you an answer to. I like to try to think that if the Universe is finite, there are either more of them or something larger outside, or alternatively there is no outside of the universe, and perhaps existence itself is finite. But that might also be my trying to reconcile the idea of infinity which is truly incomprehensible, you can spend hours just pondering this question and only end up with more questions.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
Barcode
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:17 pm

My (uneducated) answers:

1) Is a meaningless question since the Universe is homogenous. There is no special vantage point, by definition, the Universe is all there is, so it simply doesn't exist in relation to anything else. (unless you espouse the many-worlds interpretation perhaps).

2) An infinitesmally, small, hot, dense, singularity. Beyond that, I have no idea - after a bottle of whisky, I might have a better answer.

3) Yes.

4) No, nothing is "occupying" space - the fabric of space is stretching - hence why the galaxies are moving away from us at millions and millions of miles an hour. The galaxies are not rushing off into "nothing" since it is the space *itself* that is being stretched. Pretty much like you would stretch a piece of rubber.

5) I don't think there are any "borders" - based on what we currently know, there are three possible shapes for the Universe (i) positive curvature (i.e. spherical) (ii) negative curvature (i.e. saddle shaped) and (iii) flat. A 3-d version of these possible shapes that do not have borders is called, I think, a 3-d torus; that is, when you reach the "edge" you simply emerge on the other side. So space wraps around pretty much like when you're playing pacman and when he goes off the screen he re-emerges on the opposite side of the screen.

Well, that's not very enlightening is it - I recommend the bottle of whisky if you're going to spend time contemplating the origins and nature of the Universe.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:34 pm

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
isn't "nothing" still something?...

Oooh - zen !

Apparently beyond our universe, seperated by the thinnest of all possible barriers, is an alternative universe. This explains gravity. Or explains it to SOME people anyway. I watched a very interesting documentary about it on the BBC, about 98.7% of which went straight over my head.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
monteycarlos
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:44 pm

Yes my take on these questions: (and purely that since all I posses is the information provided to me via the information system we revel in and hence I am already biased to the degree of the information provided to me)

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
1) Where is our Universe in relation to anything else? (i.e. if the Universe was a dot on a piece of paper... what could be outside of that dot)

Why does it have to be a piece of paper? Here is my meaning - if the universe is finite (and it is my belief that it is even though its expansion may be infinite) then why limit it to a piece of paper (i.e. a map) when really it may be a very complex or highly simple 'ball' if you will. If you are to take the big bang theory, you may draw the conclusion that as the forces of the bang are equal and opposite in all directions then the three-dimensional 'bubble' created will be equal the whole entire way around, yet even the smallest inconsistency may vary this on a magnificent scale to great to be measured.

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
2) How did the Universe form? (where did everything originate from, what set everything into motion)

If someone were to know the truth to this, they most certainly would not be an a.net member, yet my belief is that in the pre-universal era, there were simple concentrations of elements within "space" which collided, and generated tremendous energy in turn leading to what is known as the big bang theory. Everything that we know to exist is formed from this, including life itself. Evolution took that very basic single cell life and over a vast time scale (what is thought to be a bit over 4 billion years) evolved into the complex multi-cell organisms of today.

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
3) Some scientists say that beyond the Universe is "nothing" (black and 0 degree temp), but isn't "nothing" still something?...

Nothing could be simple a "vaccum" of spacial atmosphere. (i.e. an area with no mass and not possesing any trace of elemental material or matter at all. This is what we know true space to exist of, yet it begs the question as to what is on the outer bounds of this big expanding 'bubble'. That may be the same (a matterless vaccum) or just a void beyond our current comprehension.

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
4) If there is nothing beyond the Universe, then "nothing" is occupying space. The concept of space is in fact something, isn't it?

As I just addressed, what we know to be on the outer bounds (or outside the layer) of our expanding universe is something which may yet be beyond our comprehension. It may be something like anti-matter (although most scientists regard this not to be the case) or it may be as simple as the spacial voids we know to exist already.

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
5) What force would possibly define the borders of whatever is beyond the Universe?

Are these borders defined as you suggest, or are they forever expanding in the frictionless atmosphere of space? Many people will believe now that universal expansion is coming to a halt, and in grand time scales will collapse back in on itself. If this belief is true then is it not possible that elsewhere within that void the same thing may be occuring on an infinite level? I believe that to be true yet how will we ever prove that to be the case?

You have me thinking tonight!

Cheers.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
cfalk
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:48 pm

Do you remember the very end of the movie Men In Black? i think that its is probably pretty close to the truth.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
Do you remember the very end of the movie Men In Black? i think that its is probably pretty close to the truth.

Actually that has been relatively disproven due to the expansion measurements with the big bang theory so I understand. You'd need someone with a greater knowledge than me to tell you the actual reason, its just what I read in an interview transcript.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
Lutenist
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:17 pm

I thought the prevailing theory is that there are indeed other universes. The term cosmos is the one used to capture the idea of everything that exists anywhere.

As for the notion of parallel universes, is there any chance that somewhere there's a universe in which beer, wine, cheese, chocolate, whipped cream, iced cream, and all those things that I'd actually like to consume with every meal are indeed health foods?
 
Barcode
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:29 pm

Quote:
I thought the prevailing theory is that there are indeed other universes.

It's a popular line of thought (David Deutch's 'Fabric of Reality' goes into some detail about the many-worlds hypothesis), but it has the consequence of unecessarily bloating ones ontology. The price of explaining certain phenomena is to make the theory infinitely more complicated.

If by other Universes we're talking about the idea that there may be as many as 11 (quantum) dimensions hidden from view which is what String Theory says, then that view has some currency.

Another idea is that if we trace the Big Bang right back to the beginning, then another 'inside-out' Universe will be on the other side of the singularity.

The so-called underdetermination of evidence, since there are a number of theories that are to some extent, compatible with observable data.

I don't favour the many-worlds interpretation for the reason stated - it has the consequence of complicating things enormously.
 
tristarenvy
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:06 am

I'm sure there are other populated universes, and Wal-Mart is probably trying to open a store, there.....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
flymusic
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:20 am

Can I buy some pot from you?
 



Seriously...I've thought about that myself. Thinking about that can make a human being go crazy.

[Edited 2005-06-01 17:22:58]
You fall like autumn leaves who lack tranquility.
 
TUNisia
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting Barcode (Reply 2):
4) No, nothing is "occupying" space - the fabric of space is stretching - hence why the galaxies are moving away from us at millions and millions of miles an hour. The galaxies are not rushing off into "nothing" since it is the space *itself* that is being stretched. Pretty much like you would stretch a piece of rubber.

But what is our Universe expanding/stretching into when it expands? Is the Universe subject to gravity from an outside source (like the Earth is subject to the gravity of the Sun)? This is totally the wrong place to ask these questions, but they are drivng me almost crazy.

Thanks for all the responses thus far!

[Edited 2005-06-01 19:15:29]
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
TUNisia
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Flymusic (Reply 10):
Can I buy some pot from you?

Thank you for the compliment, but I don't smoke.

:]
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
dl021
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:21 am

Disney World.....you just keep going down the interstate and its about 4 exits on. I usually stay on property.

Don't forget about Sea World.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Barcode
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:40 am

Quote:
But what is our Universe expanding/stretching into when it expands?

It isn't expanding into anything - think of it as creating space when it expands. As I said, you might want to down a bottle of whisky then ruminate further on these questions  Smile
 
clrd2go
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:25 am

A Giant Walmart, Home Depot and several fast food burger places



Jim
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seb146
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Barcode (Reply 2):
No, nothing is "occupying" space - the fabric of space is stretching - hence why the galaxies are moving away from us at millions and millions of miles an hour. The galaxies are not rushing off into "nothing" since it is the space *itself* that is being stretched. Pretty much like you would stretch a piece of rubber.

Please please *PLEASE* stop using the term "expanding" when talking about the universe!!!

Here's why: The universe is infinite, right? So, how can something be "expanding" in infinitiy? Where is the center of infinity? Where is the edge of infinity? I agree the universe is moving and shifting. But, for something to expand, it must have a center.

To expand further on the original topic, many decades ago, we belived the atom was the smallest thing out there. Then, we discoverd there is stuff inside an atom. Hence, there could be a billion universes passing in front of our eyes as you read this post. There could be trillions upon trillions of life forms that we will never be able to comprehend passing right by us at this very second pondering these same questions. Are we the largest entity here? I believe we are not. Are we the smallest? I believe we are not. Our concept of time is relevant to only us on this planet. It means nothing to those worlds being created and destroyed every time we blink. We could simply be a drop of water in a petri dish in some laboratory and will never know.

GO CANUCKS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
bezoar
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:50 am

Having an alternative universes pass through me would certainly explain why I get these odd itching sensations and twitches periodically....

How does one define 'universe?' I'd guess one would include anything of mass or energy, but might one also include the space in which it exists? Or could potentially exist? While we might be able to define the current borders of mass and energy, it seems to me that this space could be infinite.

I've read that the universe lacks sufficient mass and subsequent attractive forces to counter expansion and cause contraction. Thus, any theory of an oscillating universe would require additional forces which are currently unknown to man.

There is also a theory that states that expansion is actually accelerating.

I think it is remarkable that we can even conceive of infinity, though I know that I can fully grasp the concept.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
Barcode
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:07 am

Quote:
Here's why: The universe is infinite, right? So, how can something be "expanding" in infinitiy? Where is the center of infinity? Where is the edge of infinity? I agree the universe is moving and shifting. But, for something to expand, it must have a center.

No. There isn't any "special" location in the Universe - it is homogenous wherever you are. I know it's the natural, intuitive picture we have in our heads of a tiny singularity rapidly inflating to create the Universe we currently observe, but there is no "center", no point you will arrive at by hitting the "rewind" button.

Time is also relevant everywhere - we can be pretty sure a clock in a galaxy 10 billion light years away would tick away at the same rate due to very, very probable physical laws. The symmetry of the Universe pretty much proves this.

I don't claim to be able to wrap my head around it - the Universe is a pretty strange place  Smile
 
Barcode
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:12 am

[img]There is also a theory that states that expansion is actually accelerating.[/img]

Yup. And the furthest galaxies could be accelerating faster than the speed of light; the reason this doesn't violate Einstein's special relativity is the acceleration is the expansion of space *itself.* I'm too tired to type out the details, but I understand this to be the gist of it - surely somebody around here can explain it more coherently.

I find it a little depressing .... it will probably expand and expand, the cool down even more; it'll be dark, depressing and empty with nobody left around to observe anything. Pretty optimistic view eh.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 16):
To expand further on the original topic, many decades ago, we belived the atom was the smallest thing out there. Then, we discoverd there is stuff inside an atom. Hence, there could be a billion universes passing in front of our eyes as you read this post. There could be trillions upon trillions of life forms that we will never be able to comprehend passing right by us at this very second pondering these same questions. Are we the largest entity here? I believe we are not. Are we the smallest? I believe we are not. Our concept of time is relevant to only us on this planet. It means nothing to those worlds being created and destroyed every time we blink. We could simply be a drop of water in a petri dish in some laboratory and will never know.

I took an Astronomy class in college and the very first video we watched in class contained one of the most fascinating things I have seen. This is going to be really hard to explain without you seeing the video Im talking about, but here's a try. Beginning with the atom, the opening sequence zooms out, and out, and out...basically from the smallest thing we know out to the universe. So it went from inside the atom, to the atom, to the molecule, to matter, to an object, to a house, to a city, to our planet, to our solar system, to our glaxy and so on. I cut come corners there but yeah, you get the idea. But what it really showed was how from the atom to the universe, the general appearance is the same along with various stages along the way. It was a cycle through similar repeating stages that had similar characterisitcs.

I have never liked the idea that everything in the universe has to have a beginning somewhere. That there HAS to be an explanation of how it became what it is. Why can't it, just be. Does the fact that because we, as living beings, have a begninng and and end automatically mean the same for the universe? We ask questions about the origin of our solar system. How was it created? We ask about our moon. Where the heck did it come from? Who says it had to come from somewhere? Who said our solar system had to be created in a step by step logical sence, if created at all?? Why can't it just be what it is, possibly since the beginning of time...oh wait...i said beginning of time. Why does there have to be a beginning of time?? This can lead to personal and religious beliefs and can get messy. I have my own beliefs as well. But sometimes you have to exit certain contexts and just think...outside the box, starting with, there has to be an explanation for everything.

These are the things I like to think about. If there's one thing I learned about taking an astronomy class, even though I am absolutely fascinated with the subject, I am frustrated and annoyed that all learning about this stuff does is create more questions. Questions that we will never know.

One thing I think would be really cool is, when you die, all questions you have that will never be answered in this lifetime, will be answered.

[Edited 2005-06-02 02:23:42]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Springbok747
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:22 am

Hey..I guess that's where Saddam is hiding his WMDs... Big grin
אני תומך בישראל
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:36 am

Quote:
i.e. if the Universe was a dot on a piece of paper... what could be outside of that dot

Starbucks
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monteycarlos
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 7):
As for the notion of parallel universes, is there any chance that somewhere there's a universe in which beer, wine, cheese, chocolate, whipped cream, iced cream, and all those things that I'd actually like to consume with every meal are indeed health foods?

Its a place called Belgium.

Quoting Barcode (Reply 14):
As I said, you might want to down a bottle of whisky then ruminate further on these questions

It helps sometimes, I'd say a good glass of scotch.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 16):
Here's why: The universe is infinite, right? So, how can something be "expanding" in infinitiy? Where is the center of infinity? Where is the edge of infinity? I agree the universe is moving and shifting. But, for something to expand, it must have a center.

No, just because there are no finite bounds for measurement it does not mean we are unable to tell that the universe is expanding. For instance, the current way they deduced the expansion theory is by measuring the echo left by the explosion of the big bang. Although far from being a certainty, scientists are able to deduce from the frequency of the sound waves that the universe is increasing size in all directions from the echo of that sound. Now universally, there is a centroid, but a clearly defined centre would not exist because of the universe's imperfect shape.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
UAL747
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:09 am

Stephen Hawking suggest that the Universe is actually slowing down and will eventually collapse on itself. As for the moment, it seems as though it is expanding, but I concur with several of you when you say that objects can't be expanding in an infinite space. At times I often question that the Universe is actually relative to human thought. What we think as the end, is the end of the universe. It's a way of making the universe relative to human thought. However, as the human mind allows for greater boundaries, the universe becomes exponentially expansive. Boundaries are only determined by human boundaries. When we can think outside our own paradigms, the universe opens up even more. The universe is as large as our human mental capabilities.

Seems far out, but humans seem to only be able to define what they see as reality. Things out of reality are often pushed aside as "faith." Which I think is part of the development of religion.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Airdolomiti
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
(i.e. if the Universe was a dot on a piece of paper... what could be outside of that dot)

Forty-two.

That is of course if yours is indeed the Ultimate Question, but since the Question and the Answer are mutually exclusive, I wouldn't really know  Wink

Federico
 
QANTASforever
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:18 am

Regardless of the scientific or philosophical arguements involved, look at it from a language perspective.

The Universe by it's very definition encompasses everything. If you want to talk about some border that surrounds us all, then you'll have to make up a new word.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
airlinelover
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:23 am

Alternate plains of existance

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
norcal
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:32 am

Ahhhh all of this is making my head  spin 

All of these universe theories come from either very complex math or lots and lots of weed.

I saw a pretty crazy video in a physics class once about how there might be 7 parallel universes next to ours and that they are lined up like slices in a loaf of bread.

I'm not sure if humans have the capability to understand the purpose of our existence or the universe as a whole. I think if we ever found out the answer to these unanswerable questions we would either be thoroughly disappointed with the simplicity of the whole thing. Or that the answers are so complex that we can't find them or understand them.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:51 am

UAL747 had a very thought-provoking post. Here's one way that I think one could think of a "universe":

Each person/entity/whatever perceives their own universe. This universe "begins" when that person is born, and "ends" when that person dies. I put "begins" and "ends" in quotes because no one really knows what, if anything, happens in a person's universe before they are born into this world and after they pass away from this world.

But realistically, though there are perhaps more similarities than differences, I don't think it's unrealistic to think that each individual perceives a completely unique universe in some way. I could go on about universes intersecting in every action of people and interaction between people, but you probably get the point.

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
nworlnsbearcub
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting TUNisia (Thread starter):
I'd like to know what you all think is outside the "borders" of our Universe.

Cher.
Long after the thrill of low price, lingers the bad taste of low quality..
 
UAL747
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:05 pm

If you consider light waves, the universe has to be expanding in order for these waves to exist because if we consider that most stars are spheres of gass, then they should project light in an infinite number of directions. Meaning that these lightwaves will be expanding outward, unless the light source is surrounded by a black hole, in which the gravity is so intense it bends and contorts light particles.

Then, with the topic of light, we start a discussion on how old the universe is, and how the space/time relationship works. I've read some of Hawkings work, and I still can't fully grasp what is being discussed, and the book was in layman's terms.

But, I am of the theory that the universe is a sphere. Most objects (usually on the cellular level) take a hexagonal or spherical shape, as these are the shapes that most effeciently connect them with other objects. But anything anyone says about the universe is a hypothesis. Some more mathematical than others, but hypotheses nonetheless. Reason being, it can't be adequately tested.

One theory that I always found funny, but interesting as well is the theory of the universal atom.

What if our entire universe is an atom on the fingernail of some other being. What if our universe is just a small part of something much bigger. Something living. And, we play a very small, but very important part of its existence. Just like atoms make up our own bodies with smaller particles in side, and perhaps even smaller particals we can't identify yet, our universe is like an atom. We can understand the smallest things in our world by looking at the largest thing in our world, the universe.

Anyway, that theory was in a astronomy book of mine, so I probably didn't quote it correctly. The book was actually very mathematical, but they just threw that theory out there to get our minds thinking of the endlessness and vastness of the universe.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
monteycarlos
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
But anything anyone says about the universe is a hypothesis.

Very true, but an interesting discussion it always proves to be. What I find interesting is the hypothetical "spacecraft" that can make it to anywhere in the galaxy in reasonable time, and what would occur while it was gone...

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
What if our entire universe is an atom on the fingernail of some other being. What if our universe is just a small part of something much bigger.

This was what I was talking about earlier, and something I read in one of the interviews conducted with Stephen Hawking. He himself believes this not to be the case I think, because of the expanding nature of the universe we are in. It is believed that this universe could not be an "atom" because simply atoms do not behave on a small scale as our universe does on a grand scale... Yet as you say, its all hypothetical.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
JGPH1A
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:57 pm

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):
Each person/entity/whatever perceives their own universe

Which means by definition that the universe revolves around me ! But I already knew that  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: What Is Beyond The Universe?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:12 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
What if our entire universe is an atom on the fingernail of some other being. What if our universe is just a small part of something much bigger. Something living. And, we play a very small, but very important part of its existence. Just like atoms make up our own bodies with smaller particles in side, and perhaps even smaller particals we can't identify yet, our universe is like an atom. We can understand the smallest things in our world by looking at the largest thing in our world, the universe.

I think that's what the video I described above was trying to show.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

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