MaverickM11
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Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:54 am

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/02/opinion/20050603_opchart.gif

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...06/02/opinion/20050603_opchart.gif

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/opinion/03chart.html?

I was pleasantly surprised that it seems to be going better than I thought it was, especially wrt the percentage of Iraqis that feel Iraq is going in the right direction.

[Edited 2005-06-03 20:02:08]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:01 am

Speaking for myself: I'm somewhat uplifted by those numbers. For so long, all we've heard is nothing good is coming out of Iraq, it will disolve into civil war, it's thousands of people dead in vein. It's not an "in your face" for the pro-Iraq hawks, but it puts thing's in perspective. Progress is being made.

If I had to pick the two best points-

1. Increase in independent media
2. Support for interim government, % of people beliving Iraq is making progress

Two worst points-

1. Percent of Sunni who believe Iraq is making progress
2. Casualty rate of U.S/Iraqi/Coalition troops
 
aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:02 am

Nice to see the economy is getting better while more and more people are getting killed and more and more people take up arms.  sarcastic 
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:02 am

"For so long, all we've heard is nothing good is coming out of Iraq, it will disolve into civil war, it's thousands of people dead in vein. It's not an "in your face" for the pro-Iraq hawks, but it puts thing's in perspective. Progress is being made"

That's what I thought. Most of the numbers are better than I expected.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
Nice to see the economy is getting better while more and more people are getting killed and more and more people take up arms.

Study your history... people are less liable to political radicalization when there is a stable economy. What did Hitler ride to power? Unemployment. What did Stalin ride to power? Hunger. Marx was wrong when he said religion is the opiate of the masses: work is.

With a population of 26 million, the "insurgents" constitute approxametly .1% of Iraq. It's a damn good thing the other 99.9% of Iraqis are able to feed their families and go to work, or this whole shindig would have fallen apart a long time ago.
 
aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
Study your history... people are less liable to political radicalization when there is a stable economy.

According to that theory, safety in Iraq should have improved along with the economy - it did the opposite. I agree, a stable economy a vital for a stable democracy, but it doesn't automatically lead to one.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
It's a damn good thing the other 99.9% of Iraqis are able to feed their families and go to work,...

You make it sound like they're living joyful lives in suburbia, which is kind of difficult when you're in a country with 70 terrorist attacks a day.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:28 am

Keep pushing the PR, boys. Keep sucking the teets of the PR coming from the White House. They started something they don't know how to finish, and, in the end, I fear all we will have done is create another enemy.

Glad to see you think starting an unjustifed war is such a great thing. Seems you're in the minority anymore in this country.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:35 am

"Keep sucking the teets of the PR coming from the White House"

...because the White House always uses the New York Times (the editorial page no less) as its PR mouthpiece... Yeah sure
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):

According to that theory, safety in Iraq should have improved along with the economy - it did the opposite.

You have it backwards. The people bombing and blowing-up Iraqis are radicals, mostly foreign, taking an opportunity to screw over something the U.S. has their hands in. The number of every day Iraqis participating and sympathizing with the insurgents is very small. Since they have some degree of economic stability, they are much less liable to start participating in terrorism theirselves.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
They started something they don't know how to finish, and, in the end, I fear all we will have done is create another enemy.

Oh whatever ... no one has a crystal ball, least of all you. They have every bit the probability (if not more) of becoming a liberal convert like Germany and Japan as they do falling apart into some Somalian anarchy.
 
theCoz
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:44 am

IMO the most important numbers would be the percentage of people who support the Iraqi government. I'm glad to see those numbers rising.
 
aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
The people bombing and blowing-up Iraqis are radicals, mostly foreign, taking an opportunity to screw over something the U.S. has their hands in. The number of every day Iraqis participating and sympathizing with the insurgents is very small.

You didn't bother to actually read that "scorecard", did you?  footinmouth 
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dl021
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:08 am

The people supporting the government seem to be in the majority there, and the increase in the number of insurgents seems to be slowing significantly. Democracy and a growing economy will continue to convince people to follow the path of peace.

The naysayers will be crying failure forever it seems. They'll probably never be willing to stop complaining.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
They'll probably never be willing to stop complaining.

If more had spoken up before this ill-gotten war, Ian, there might not be 1500-plus American families in mourning, an endless stream being tossed down this particular toilet, and and endless stream of people dying every day in Iraq.

One other thing-watching ABC News the other night, they're reporting that 90 suicide attacks occurred in May, 69 in April, and an increasing number of those doing th suicide attacks aren't foreigners, but Iraqi citizens. That should worry the yaysayers, who still are in love with this war.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
You didn't bother to actually read that "scorecard", did you?

It said there are 16,000 insurgents and another 1,000 foreign insurgents. Assuming that's conservative and there are really another 5,000 ... the total number of people planting bombs is less than one tenth of one percent of the population of Iraq...
 
aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
The people bombing and blowing-up Iraqis are radicals, mostly foreign, taking an opportunity to screw over something the U.S. has their hands in.

So you stand by that? Even though Iraqi "insurgents" (sounds so much better than "terrorists"... I love propaganda language!) supposedly outnumber those from foreign countries 16 times?
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seb146
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:33 am

But are we any closer to capturing the al-Qaida terrorists or finding WMD? Does anyone remember that is what started this sh*t in the first place? *IF* the Bush administration was legit, the number of US troop deaths in Iraq would be ZERO!!

GO CANUCKS!!
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:36 am

Seb, those kissing up to the war forgot a long time ago what the original reason was-it got lost when it was found to be false. But that doesn't stop them for making up new excuses and lies for the war. It wasn't about freeing Iraq; it wasn't about the war on terror; it wasn't about fostering democracy in the Middle East. It was, before the war, solely about WMD, that aren't there, and weren't there when we invaded a fifth-rate, hapless, almost defenseless nation.

And yet guys like Maverick and DL021 are for some reason proud of what we've done there. Be proud, of a lie, of damaging our good name in the world? Not me.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:47 am

"And yet guys like Maverick and DL021 are for some reason proud of what we've done there. "

If Iraq becomes a stable democracy, it will be the best thing that has ever happened to that hemisphere and will make the lives lost and money spent worthwhile.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
If Iraq becomes a stable democracy, it will be the best thing that has ever happened to that hemisphere and will make the lives lost and money spent worthwhile.

It's neither stable nor a democracy. And, I still contend that once we pull out-and Dick Cheney has set the timeline, thank God for that (sarcasm), they'll go to what the people there want-an fundamental Islamic rule. After years of Saddam, they want something within their faith, and many see an Iranian-type government as the answer, I think.

Democracy, I fear, will be fleeting, and only there while we impose it on those people, Maverick.

But when that happens, I'm sure you'll find a Democrat to blame, Maverick.
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daedaeg
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
The naysayers will be crying failure forever it seems. They'll probably never be willing to stop complaining.

Sometimes I think the naysayers hope for failure, just so they can have an excuse to criticize the US and Bush. Success in Iraq completely destroys their agenda.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:57 am

" they'll go to what the people there want-an fundamental Islamic rule"

No people want fundamental Islamic rule in the fashion of Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, etc.. No one chooses that.

" they want something within their faith,"

Absolutely, but the threat of Muslim radicals being elected to power is overblown.

"and many see an Iranian-type government as the answer, I think."

Iranians hate their own government, and as the chart above shows, the majority support the Iraqi government and believe the country is heading in the right direction. They do not want a Council of Guardians or Taliban, and they will not vote for that.

"But when that happens, I'm sure you'll find a Democrat to blame, Maverick."

Aren't you petty and childish....
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 19):
Sometimes I think the naysayers hope for failure, just so they can have an excuse to criticize the US and Bush. Success in Iraq completely destroys their agenda.

Yeah right. Like all we live for is bashing the Bush admin. Actually your statement is pretty offensive since you implied we'd be upset by success in Iraq and prefer people to be killed so we have something we can blame Bush for.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
dl021
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
If more had spoken up before this ill-gotten war, Ian, there might not be 1500-plus American families in mourning, an endless stream being tossed down this particular toilet, and and endless stream of people dying every day in Iraq.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
, who still are in love with this war.


No one loves the war....no one in their right minds anyway. It is a necessary evil that, if successful, will leave results that make us more secure from terrorists.

People did speak up against the war, and others supported the decision.....

now we're at the thing and all the complaining in the world is not going to get us to cut it short and leave the field before winning over the terrorists.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):

And yet guys like Maverick and DL021 are for some reason proud of what we've done there. Be proud, of a lie, of damaging our good name in the world? Not me.

Well, perhaps we should examine what I'm proud of, without any assumptions or perception coloration from my friend Falcon. I am proud of our armed forces and the way with which they handle themselves overall. The US GI is still the most compassionate soldier to the innocent, and the most dominating one on the field of battle.....not because we are supermen and women but because we won't lose out there. Politically we can be weakened, but the military does its job. I am proud of the fact that we went into Iraq and Afghanistan and did not just take what they have, but are helping them to reach for a form of democracy that their regions have never had.

I'm humbled by the sacrifices made by our men and women, and I get really pissed off when people try to tell these troops that their sacrifices were in vain.

Tell me that we are stealing Iraqs oil....that was an accusation thrown out there by the anti-American crowd looking to cast us in a bad light.

Tell me that we are massacreing civilians....which has been an accusation thrown at us.

Tell me that we are creating an empire with our actions....which some want to believe that we are so they can properly vilify us.

I'll show you how the opposite is true, and we actually stopped most of those things from happening on a governmental scale in these countries. Our presence there has been a benefit to these countries and will continue to be so. You can make all the pithy comments you like that denigrate the efforts made, but the facts remain. The previous government in Iraq was composed of degenerate, sadistic, genocidal maniacs who could be trusted only to do what they saw as benefitting themselves and gave a very good impression of a nationstate that was hiding WMD programs, which they had had previously.
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mt99
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:06 am

Were are these numbers comming from? are they factual?

BTW .. What "threat level" are we now a days
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aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
What "threat level" are we now a days

"SCARED", as my Firefox plugin would say...  Silly That's "Elevated" in DoHS terms; I doubt it will ever go to "guarded" or "low". Afraid citizens are more likely to vote for pro-war anti-personal freedom governments.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
Were are these numbers comming from? are they factual?

From a Brookings Institute study here:

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20050603.htm
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 24):
Afraid citizens are more likely to vote for pro-war anti-personal freedom governments

That was the Democrat platform and it didn't work, obviously, otherwise Kerry would be President.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26):
That was the Democrat platform and it didn't work, obviously, otherwise Kerry would be President.

Sweet! So Kerry put the DoHS and the silly little colour codes into place? God, that's a vast left-wing conspiracy right there!
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MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:40 am

No, they tried to scare American citizens into thinking a vote for Bush meant fewer freedoms, more war, less security, a rotten economy, and no social security...and that didn't work.
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aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:44 am

Well, the Bush admin wasn't/isn't exactly trying to make people think they're safe, is it? That's the point I made when I referred to the DoHS' "threat colours", I didn't say a thing about any DNC/GOP campaign.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
Even though Iraqi "insurgents" supposedly outnumber those from foreign countries 16 times?

I got it backwards don't shoot me... In any event, is an insurgency compromised of .1% of Iraq's population. It's an insurgency led and financed largely by foreign sources. It is not representative of the whole of Iraq.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
(sounds so much better than "terrorists"... I love propaganda language!)

By defintion, an insurgent is one who revolts or assails a government or athority. How's that propaganda, doesn't really put a positive spin on anything, does it?

No one denies that insurgents use terrorist tactics, like car bombs and improvised explosives, but also militia-style tactics like kidnappings and gun crime.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
That's the point I made when I referred to the DoHS' "threat colours"

As much as it may disappoint you, the "threat level" system wasn't designed for Fox News to run on their news ticker every half hour. It's a system that helps local police and first responders efficently deploy resources and manpower. It has nothing to do with you and I.

In my city, for example, two officers are kept in every patrol car (rather than just one) when the "threat level" goes above orange or something. In cities like New York, an elevated level means police are stationed at preprepared locations like the entrances to bridges and tunnels, the NYSE, etc. At no point did Tom Ridge say: now at Orange, that's when you should keep your iodine pills handy.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:04 am

"Well, the Bush admin wasn't/isn't exactly trying to make people think they're safe, is it?
"

...besides constantly reassuring the public that they are safer than they were four years ago?
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aloges
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RE: Iraqi Scorecard

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
It's an insurgency led and financed largely by foreign sources.

How can you say that? You simply don't know, just like I don't.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
It is not representative of the whole of Iraq.

I hope that's true, believe me.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
How's that propaganda, doesn't really put a positive spin on anything, does it?

I think it's hypocritical to call the kidnappers, car bombers and assaulters in Iraq "insurgents" instead of "terrorists" when you (talking about the Bush admin here) generally condemn all detainees at Guantanamo as "terrorists". That's just one example of why I think that admin is trying to put a less disastrous spin on those people by calling them insurgents instead of terrorists.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
At no point did Tom Ridge say: now at Orange, that's when you should keep your iodine pills handy.

LOL! Nicely put, but if I remember the first months of that system correctly, it did scare people into duct-taping everything they could find so no anthrax virus could find its way into their homes.  Silly  banghead 

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
...besides constantly reassuring the public that they are safer than they were four years ago?

Condoleezza Rice on 1st Oct, 2002: "And after 9/11, there is no longer any doubt that today America faces an existential threat to our security -- a threat as great as any we faced during the Civil War, the so-called "Good War", or the Cold War." Source

George Bush on 9th Oct, 2003: "Since September the 11th, the terrorists have taken lives -- since the attacks on our nation that fateful day, the terrorists have attacked in Casablanca, Mombasa, Jerusalem, Amman, Riyadh, Baghdad, Karachi, New Delhi, Bali, and Jakarta. The terrorists continue to plot and plan against our country and our people. America must not forget the lessons of September 11th. (Applause.)

America cannot retreat from our responsibilities and hope for the best. Our security will not be gained by timid measures. Our security requires constant vigilance and decisive action. I believe America has only one option: We must fight this war until the work is done."
Source

George Bush, Christmas Message 2004: "In Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere, these courageous Americans are fighting the enemies of freedom and protecting our country from danger." Source

Yes, Bush certainly didn't say those things to convince people the US was continuously "at war" with terrorists, and that it took his "leadership" to continue the "fight". Add http://www.ready.gov/ to that, and you've got a smoothly-running "be afraid and vote for me for I protect you" propaganda machine.
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