greasespot
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Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:00 am

According to the results her brain was half the normal size and the damage was irreversiable.

There was no evidenge of hereever being strangled.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy.ap/index.html

Hopefully, this will put to rest that she was murdererd. Life support was just turned off and and assists removed so that her body wa allowed to expire.

There was no hope of recovery.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:06 am

This appears to be total vindication for Michael Schiavo.

Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.

"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting Greasespot (Thread starter):
Hopefully, this will put to rest that she was murdererd.

Agreed. On another note, maybe I SHOULDN'T send a photo of this mole to Bill Frist for his "expert diagnosis..."
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:11 am

I am glad that the results came back, and that they indicated what most reasonable people suspected. As mentioned, this should vindicate Michael Schiavo. But, now as then, certain die-hard 'right to life' people will refuse to see this as what it is, and that poor family's struggle is now a permanent black mark on their life, because of the media circus. Too bad; really too bad.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 2):
On another note, maybe I SHOULDN'T send a photo of this mole to Bill Frist for his "expert diagnosis..."

Why waste your time? You know that his staffers would NEVER pass the data on, so that way, he can keep saying that 'he never saw the autopsy data' when being asked why he is STILL being a moron about this case 300 years from now.
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ctbarnes
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 3):
I am glad that the results came back, and that they indicated what most reasonable people suspected. As mentioned, this should vindicate Michael Schiavo. But, now as then, certain die-hard 'right to life' people will refuse to see this as what it is, and that poor family's struggle is now a permanent black mark on their life, because of the media circus. Too bad; really too bad.

Agreed. The whole sorry episode was an embarrasing display of political and religious theatre where a struggling family were put on trial by the media and politicians trying to use the Schindlers and the Schiavos for their own gain. It also underscores that the decision to remove nutition and hydration was indeed the right one.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
jaysit
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:03 am

But perhaps Frist and Delay also have brains half the size of the average human.

So they may think its perfectly normal.

Ideologues have their own ways of bending the truth to fit their own reality.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Superfly
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:05 am

Jaysit:
You took the words right out of my mouth!
Bring back the Concorde
 
desertjets
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
But perhaps Frist and Delay also have brains half the size of the average human.

And yet when you put them together you somehow don't get one whole brain.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
767Lover
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 5):
Agreed. The whole sorry episode was an embarrasing display of political and religious theatre where a struggling family were put on trial by the media and politicians trying to use the Schindlers and the Schiavos for their own gain. It also underscores that the decision to remove nutition and hydration was indeed the right one.

Charles, SJ

This became a media/political circus because the Schiavos' did everything in their power to make sure of it. They even requested help from Congress.

This is a case of parents not wanting to say goodbye to their "baby girl."
 
jaysit
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:19 am

This is a case of parents not wanting to say goodbye to their "baby girl."

And a case of shameless politicians and other "activists" seeking to excite their political base over a personal tragedy.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
HT
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:36 am

Though I do approve Michael Schiavo´s decision and welcome his vindication by this report, it was a horror for me to see that Terry´s fight went on for another 13 days before she finally made it.

There´s another thread that deals with a similar "event" (currently, I don´t have a better word for it), but those poor lad being the center of it, made it very fast. Though it must have been a very, very tough decision for those parents too, they were fortunate that their son´s fight was over so very fast ... My Co-worker's 4 Year Old Son Died Yesterday (by GOCAPS16 Jun 14 2005 in Non Aviation)

-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:42 am

And, as expected, her parents disagree with the autopsy's findings:
http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/4608901/detail.html

We obviously haven't heard the last on all this.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 9):
This is a case of parents not wanting to say goodbye to their "baby girl."

Which is true, and happens quite often. Few families, however, are willing to go to the lengths the Schindlers did in order to keep their daughter on life support. I end up praying they will find a way to let go.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 12):
And, as expected, her parents disagree with the autopsy's findings:
http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/4608901/detail.html

We obviously haven't heard the last on all this.

Pity.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
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PA110
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
But perhaps Frist and Delay also have brains half the size of the average human.

Perhaps their feeding tubes should also be removed!
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
greasespot
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:54 am

Strangly all the people screaming in the original Shiavo threads about murder...and killing here are strangly quiet...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15):
Strangly all the people screaming in the original Shiavo threads about murder...and killing here are strangly quiet...

Yep. Come out, come out, where ever you are!!
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15):
Strangly all the people screaming in the original Shiavo threads about murder...and killing here are strangly quiet...

I have a feeling that the loudest kickers and screamers in the original Schiavo threads are going to say nothing and hope and pray that this thread sinks to the archives quickly so that they don't have to deal with the realization that they REALLY backed the wrong horse.

Or they'll drink the Kool-Aid and back the parents without any critical thought put forward on the issue. Again.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:00 am

No point in defending her in a forum like this, but all this info is AFTER the fact. We did not know this when she was still alive. It is easy to scream now.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:09 am

This should in theory put to rest the "Stop playing god" theory that the right wingers have been putting out, if they were keeping her alive for 15 years with half a brain, they were playing God.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 18):
No point in defending her in a forum like this, but all this info is AFTER the fact. We did not know this when she was still alive. It is easy to scream now.

What do you mean defending her?

Correction: some of us did not know this when she was still alive.  Wink
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 19):
if they were keeping her alive for 15 years with half a brain, they were playing God.

But it was God's will!! Haven't you read about the life-sustaining technology in the Bible?!
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:15 am

Changed my mind ...delete please.

[Edited 2005-06-16 02:16:03]
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 21):
Haven't you read about the life-sustaining technology in the Bible?!

Little known fact-- Jesus Christ lived on a feeding tube for 3 days. < /blaspheumy >
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
KC135R
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 4):
Why waste your time? You know that his staffers would NEVER pass the data on

I actually e-mailed Frist, Delay, and Mel Martinez (R-FL) after their little "palm Sunday compromise" stunt to voice my disgust for their antics, which were clearly for political gain. First time I ever did that as a matter of fact. Anyway, yesterday (odd timing) I finally got a reply from Sen Frists office, and while it was no doubt written by a staffer and had his signature artificially put on, at least his office had the decency to explain their side. While I totally disagree wit his reasoning, I have to respect someone takes time to try and justify their position, however ridiculous.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
But perhaps Frist and Delay also have brains half the size of the average human.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  Beautifully put!!!

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 12):
And, as expected, her parents disagree with the autopsy's findings:

Which proves what I originally thought when they refused to listen to the doctors - that, while hopefully out of love only, they had selfish motives (couldn't let go after 15 years) and that they are completely delusional. How can you not accept this autopsy report? Amazing.

On another note, I heard Sean Hannity (a few months ago)go on and on and on and on about how the husband was bad and wanted to murder her even though there was hope - so today I tuned in for his first hour (even though the sound of his voice now makes me sick) to see if he would apologize for slandering Michael Schiavo (who was about the only rational person in all this apparently) and I only could catch the intro but Hannity actually said the autopsy proved he (yes as in Hannity) was right - that there are still unanswered questions! He left out the part in the autopsy where he was most wrong, that there was NO HOPE of recovery - her brain was 50% gone! I want to know when Hannity and Glenn Beck (who boldy and plainly called Schiavo a murderer and scumbag) are going to be apologizing. M Schiavo should sue them both for slander, IMO! Teach them they can't get away with saying anything they please.

The official White House comment from GW :It was still wrong to remove the feeding tube. And why I ask? To keep a woman who was blind, unable to move, suffering from osteoporosis, and missing half her brain alive to keep her parents happy? What kind of "culture of life" is that?? How selfish these people are. I am glad that what I believed was right, there was no hope for recovery and she should be allowed to die. I hope she has total peace now!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 18):
No point in defending her in a forum like this, but all this info is AFTER the fact. We did not know this when she was still alive. It is easy to scream now.

Actually most of the information should have been available well before the decision. There exist several methods today, with which brain activity and circulation inside the brain can be made visible on a living person. I assume that these methods have been used on her. When my father suffered a stroke 9 years ago, they were able to show the dead areas of his brain, which died when blood circulation to them was interrupted due to a clot in his carotid artery. The autopsy only gave a final confirmation that the result gained by the radiological and electronic methods were correct

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
KC135R
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 18):
No point in defending her in a forum like this, but all this info is AFTER the fact. We did not know this when she was still alive. It is easy to scream now.

How did we not know? The results are what most doctors said they would be, save the few radicals who said otherwise. Based on the facts that were available, most doctors believed this was the case. 40 some odd court decisions agreed also, and agreed there was enough evidence to believe she would not have wanted to live like this. Despite the antics of Bush and congress, the federal courts wouldn't touch it because the right thing had been done. The US government has no business getting involved in people's personal lives to this extent. It could have worked out differently, but most rational logical people knew this was the case.

BTW, 70% of Americans agreed the right thing was done long before this autopsy report. The government needs to start doing the will of the people and stop showboating and pandering to the extremists in this country. That goes for the left and the right, though the far right were the villains in this case, IMO.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:50 am

I heard Hannity going on about this today, and while I normally agree with him on some matters, I found myself absolutely appalled at the self-delusional nature of his comments! He's managed to convince himself he's right about this, even though FACTUAL EVIDENCE PROVES HIM WRONG.

This isn't something like liberal ideology vs. conservative ideology. This is fact vs. fiction, and for Hannity to ignore facts because they're inconvenient to his argument made me lose a LOT of respect for him.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
TedTAce
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 18):
We did not know this when she was still alive.

YOU and your ILK CHOOSE to IGNORE the FACTS presented here and by countless news organizations. Admit you were wrong, for medical reasons and that you are just another right to life right wing puppet who believes she should have been kept alive for YOUR religious beliefs and we will go back to respecting you for the religious beliefs you choose instead of the irresponsible shill for the right wing agenda you are acting like now.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 21):
Haven't you read about the life-sustaining technology in the Bible?!

Oh you mean that technology that dooms 1000's of Jehovah's witnesses to an otherwise easily preventable death every year?

Quoting KC135R (Reply 24):
I actually e-mailed Frist, Delay, and Mel Martinez (R-FL) after their little "palm Sunday compromise" stunt to voice my disgust for their antics, which were clearly for political gain. First time I ever did that as a matter of fact. Anyway, yesterday (odd timing) I finally got a reply from Sen Frists office, and while it was no doubt written by a staffer and had his signature artificially put on, at least his office had the decency to explain their side. While I totally disagree wit his reasoning, I have to respect someone takes time to try and justify their position, however ridiculous.

This is a good story but it almost confirms what I said. I'd be stunned if you walked up to Frist and recited your e-mail verbatim that he would bat an eyelash of any form of rememberance.
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ltbewr
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:03 pm

The case of Terry Shiavo is still very disturbing on many levels. She unfortuntaly ended up in a horrible twilight of life no one would ever want for themselves, or even their worst enemies. In effect, she was half brain dead. Like many, I did have problems with the removal of the fluid/nourishment tubes, based on the info we publicaly had. The autopacy report disclosures today does somewhat help with understanding the decision to withdraw her nourishment and fluids. A bigger problem for me was the horrible publicity hounds, self-rightous religious people and of vote grubbing politicans and further worsened by a tabloized press.

The autopcy clearly says about half of the brain was dead and shrunken to half of size. She was believed to be blind due to the brain damage. Apparently most of that part of her brain for congnative thought and maybe pain was dead, but half of her brain was apparently still working, and with artificial access to food and water, was able to live. For all partical purposes, her damage was irreversable, and probably her brain would continue to lose more living brain cells and eventually die from it or more likely from some untreated infection.
The autopacy still leaves some questions. Nothing was determined as of yet as to what caused her initial partial brain death. Nothing was found of any possible head trauma. The autopacy still tends to doubt a connection to her overhydration and dieting style that caused her initial brain injury, but that could be subject to further tests. There are still serious questions as to the timing of her collaspe and her getting to a hospital and an investigation still needs to go in that direction.
There are deep and legitment fears with many for good reason from this case. Many fear the 'slippery slope' toward ethanasia, or possible premature termination of life to gain access to estate monies or by relatives of such victims or worse by insurance companies to hasten death to save money. Florida and other states need to create better, balanced and more up to date laws to reduce the risk of euthnesia of those with long term but near death conditions.
I wish the religious that harped on this case would instead care more about those without sufficient health insurance or food in the USA and all over the world about those without sufficient food or clean water or where ethnic/tribal or govermental wars are killing many 100000's a year.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 29):
Florida and other states need to create better, balanced and more up to date laws to reduce the risk of euthnesia of those with long term but near death conditions.

NO.

This planet barely has enough resources to deal with it's population at this time and because we are 'such a rich' society we forget that there are people starving elsewhere who'd make a LOT better use of Terri's feeding tube then she did.


Feed the world and the homeless on the American streets, then I might start to care about the vegetables.
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KC135R
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 29):
Nothing was determined as of yet as to what caused her initial partial brain death.

Not exactly, the initial damage to the brain happened due to the fact that her brain went without oxygen for a long time. She collapsed and was near death for almost 1 hour. What is still unknown is what caused her to collapse. The bulimia theory has not totally been disproved, there's just nothing medically, 15 years later, to back it up. Doesn't mean it didn't happen and that theory came from testimony about her condition at the time.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 29):
I did have problems with the removal of the fluid/nourishment tubes, based on the info we publicaly had.

Then you were buying into the propaganda some of the media put out. Having lived nearly 3 years in Tampa Bay, I was familiar with this case more so than most people. I have heard for some time now that part of her brain was gone and replaced with spinal fluid and/or turned to mush. This autopsy report only confirmed what I believed, despite Sen Frists Senate floor diagnosis, this was not a surprise to me at all, nor to anyone who closely followed the case.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 29):
I wish the religious that harped on this case would instead care more about those without sufficient health insurance or food in the USA and all over the world about those without sufficient food or clean water or where ethnic/tribal or govermental wars are killing many 100000's a year.

Valid points...also, how about letting more federal money be spent on stem cell research? It could possibly help someone in a similar situation. But many religious people are opposed to that because it "destroys life" even though the fertilized eggs used in stem cell research are left over from in vitro fertilization and would be trashed if not used for research. If we truly want a culture of life it's time to study the great potential that stem cell research likely has. It amazes me that Bush, even now, thinks the tube should have been left in Terri Schiavo, yet is so staunchly opposed to stem cell research based on ill-informed moral reasons.  Confused
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:26 pm

Here is what I want to know. If it was determined that she was to die, then:

Why leave a woman to dehydrate and starve to death? Her official death is listed as dehydration. If the electric chair is considered by most states to be "cruel and unusual" punishment, is this not as well? If you are going to kill, or let someone die, why not make it easier for everyone? Perform lethal injection. It makes the person lose consciousness before attacking and seizing their internal organs, but they do not know. Why leave the person to starve to death with people watching like a circus side show?

Secondly, if the parents of Schiavo wanted to spend the rest of their lives caring for her, why should they not be allowed to? Just because her husband says so? There was never anything that PROVED that death is what she wanted. It was her husband's word against her family's word. Just because her husband had guardianship of her does not mean he can choose whether she lives or dies. That would mean that I would have the decision of whether my wife were to live or die, despite what she would want. Could he have said she wanted to die because he had a girlfriend and two small children from that girlfriend(while still married!), stood to inherit a large amount of money from her death, and had spent all the money from a medical malpractice lawsuit from when Schiavo originally collapsed in the early 90's? It doesn't make sense.

Personally, I don't see how they could have determined to let her die, especially when her parents were more than willing to keep her alive via the feeding tube. Was there any PROOF that she would have wanted to die? No. Was there any PROOF that she said that she would want to die? No. Is there any proof that she did not suffer from her starvation and dehydration? No. Her brain was smaller than normal and she may have been blind, but that does not mean she could not feel pain or suffer from her long, drawn out death? No.

You can state your claim about whether you think she should have died or lived and you can state your claim as to whether you think she would want to die or not, but NO ONE can prove that, therefore her death was, in fact, murder.
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
KC135R
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
Why leave a woman to dehydrate and starve to death?

I agree - the humane thing to do would be to give her an injection. But in our sometimes twisted world, that is murder and starving to death is just letting her die.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
Secondly, if the parents of Schiavo wanted to spend the rest of their lives caring for her, why should they not be allowed to? Just because her husband says so?

Because if she truly told her husband she wouldn't want to live like that, it's his responsibility to carry out her wishes.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
There was never anything that PROVED that death is what she wanted.

Right, nothing was proven completely because it's all heresay. But testimony 8 years ago was enough to convince Judge Greer, and all the others who looked at the case, that she would not have wanted to be kept alive in that state. In lieu of a living will, the law says previous conversations are sufficient proof.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
stood to inherit a large amount of money from her death,

Facts as of right now is that he gets $0 from her death.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
Could he have said she wanted to die because he had a girlfriend and two small children from that girlfriend(while still married!),

If that was all it was he could have divorced her and given custody to her parents.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
had spent all the money from a medical malpractice lawsuit from when Schiavo originally collapsed in the early 90's?

Yes, most or all of that money is gone. A. for medical care for Terri B. for legal bills to fight for what was legally proven she would have wanted.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
Was there any PROOF that she would have wanted to die? No. Was there any PROOF that she said that she would want to die?

Wrong and wrong - this case legally stood up despite all the attention for over 8 years and going through some 40 different courts over time. It was determined, legally, she would have wanted to die. Take emotion out of it.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
You can state your claim about whether you think she should have died or lived and you can state your claim as to whether you think she would want to die or not, but NO ONE can prove that, therefore her death was, in fact, murder.

Wrong again, it was completely legal. You may not like it, but it was legal - so it's not murder. It was agonizing that she wasted away for 15 years, it was sad she had to starve and thirst to death because of wacky American values that prohibit a more peaceful, faster death, and I do feel sorry for the family - but they were wrong on all counts. The husband had the legal right to do what he did, if she did indicate she wouldn't want to live like that (and most Americans feel the same way BTW) than it was also his obligation to do what he did, not just walk away. If all that I think is true, than he carried out one last act of their marriage by seeing to it her wishes were carried out. No one but Michael Schiavo knows what was in his heart. Despite the lack of evidence, maybe he did put her in that state - maybe he saw it through so she would never come back as a witness as some theorized (it sounds even more ridiculous now than the 1st time I heard it) - but if that is the case he will be dealt with in due time.

For those who doubt how things can degenerate imagine this. During this whole debate, a co-worker I often talk to about political issues told me a little story. Due to the case, he and his wife talked about it at length. She told him she would not want to be kept alive like that. She made him promise he would help end her life if she was in that state. Then, she called her parents and asked what they would do. They said they would do anything they could to keep her alive. She asked what about if her husband said she wouldn't have wanted to live? Parents said they would fight it to the end, like the Schindlers. Does that make you think at all? It could have easily been my co-worker, who is a good person, being called a killer and abuser by stupid media people that only know what they want and base their decisions on ideology not fact. Suffice it to say, they both decided to do living wills after that.

[Edited 2005-06-16 06:48:24]
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3081
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:28 pm

Write your wills ASAP, you never know when the media will make a clown out of you or your family...

BTW nice to see this case, hada greater purpose: to expose the media circus, to expose the bias in the media and the distorsion of facts some "respected" people have...

Id love to see Hannity or Orelly, say "ops we were wrong"..but FOX makes me want to puke so I guess Ill never know.

Best Regards
TRB
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kalakaua
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:59 pm

I think people shouldn't be blaming politics and religion. Terri Shiavo's parents were in this for money. They brought everyone into this. It is a sad thing when ignorance gets involved, and that is where you can blame politics and religion. This thing should have been a quiet personal family affair. Thank you media, for doing it again.
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:09 pm

And now the fanatics in the Fanatical Party are busy backtracking on their comments. Maybe we should deluge their offices with their earlier comments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/16/po...8d4907a7a&ei=5094&partner=homepage
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36):
And now the fanatics in the Fanatical Party are busy backtracking on their comments. Maybe we should deluge their offices with their earlier comments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/16/po...epage

From above: "Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008, angrily said he had never made a formal diagnosis and thus had nothing to retract."

There is no animosity in that statment is there?????
 angel 
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15):
Strangly all the people screaming in the original Shiavo threads about murder...and killing here are strangly quiet...

Funny how that works isn't it.

I don't hear anything from Frist or Jeb Bush or anyone that tried - without merit - to step in and take over . . .

It was a family affair, the government had no business intervening.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 37):
From above: "Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008, angrily said he had never made a formal diagnosis and thus had nothing to retract."

 redflag  What a load of crap.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 37):
Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008

For about 10 minutes, until the good people of the Iowa Caucus hand him his hat (do Republicans have those too ? Caucuses I mean, not hats).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 29):
A bigger problem for me was the horrible publicity hounds, self-rightous religious people

I always have wondered why people of faith that beleive in Heaven would try so hard to have someone not get to go to heaven, wouldn't heaven be a much better place for her?

In general it is amazing that people of faith fear death that much.

Does anyone else find that behavior interesting?
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
Mr Spaceman
Posts: 2723
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:01 am

Hello 1MillionFlyer.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 40):
In general it is amazing that people of faith fear death that much.



Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 40):
Does anyone else find that behavior interesting?

I have always found that behavior very, very, very, interesting!!!

I honestly believe that many (not all) people who go to church regularly, do so because they are very afraid of death. But they'll never admit it!

I know that a church is a beautiful, peaceful place to be for many other reasons too - other than hopeing your belief & faith will bring you eternal life. A church can be mentally overwhelming with feelings that are extremely powerful for many reasons that don't involve death.

Myself, I don't go to church. I thank GOD every day & night for my personal reasons, in my own home .... or wherever. I hope there's another adventure after I die ...... but I don't "worry" about it.

Take Care,

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 37):
From above: "Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008, angrily said he had never made a formal diagnosis and thus had nothing to retract."

What a load of crap.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 37):
Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008

For about 10 minutes, until the good people of the Iowa Caucus hand him his hat (do Republicans have those too ? Caucuses I mean, not hats).

Hey Hey hey, I was quoting the article in Jaysit's article... don't flame the messenger!!!

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 37):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36):
And now the fanatics in the Fanatical Party are busy backtracking on their comments. Maybe we should deluge their offices with their earlier comments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/16/po...epage

From above: "Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008, angrily said he had never made a formal diagnosis and thus had nothing to retract."
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SE210Caravelle
Posts: 256
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):

Secondly, if the parents of Schiavo wanted to spend the rest of their lives caring for her, why should they not be allowed to? Just because her husband says so?

because they had absolutely no right to keep her alive. They were not responsible for her, instead it was T. Shiavos husband, who, and rightfully so, had complete say over Terry.

The husband wanted T. Shiavo to go peacefully and not be forced to have a tube stuck down her throat, which in my opinion is almost as inhumane as the electric chair. Is that not reasonable?

I also have heard that the husband had a girlfriend and her - the girlfriends - children. It is my understanding, and please notify me if I am wrong, that he wanted to get married with her and continue his life. He couldn't do this if Terry was still alive because Terry and him were husband and wife and he would be unable to divorce her because divorce must be mutual and Terry would be unable to agree for a divorce because of her state of condition. If Terry passed away peacefully then he would be able to continue his life and re-marry.

Thanks,

SE210Caravelle
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 42):
Hey Hey hey, I was quoting the article in Jaysit's article... don't flame the messenger!!!

No, No, I'm agreeing - the message is  redflag , not your comments!  thumbsup 

The whole case was a debacle . . . made the GOP (and especially Frist, Jeb and some others) look just plain stupid - and now Dr. Frist's people (interesting not Sen Frist) say, ahhhh, nevermind . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
mdsh00
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RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 32):
Secondly, if the parents of Schiavo wanted to spend the rest of their lives caring for her, why should they not be allowed to? Just because her husband says so? There was never anything that PROVED that death is what she wanted.

It doesn't matter what the parents want. Legally the husband is the next of kin and what he says, goes. The fact that the parents couldn't deal with his choice is what lead to this whole circus.

This was just an ugly case of conservative Christians gone amok and trampling over the rights of medical professionals, families, states, and their courts. Shame on the GOP. I really hope that if Frist even makes it past the primaries in 2008, (God help us if he did) that his opponent hound him with this case.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
Because if she truly told her husband she wouldn't want to live like that, it's his responsibility to carry out her wishes

I agree, the only problem is that there was nothing to say thats what she wanted. There is nothing to prove it and Terri is unable to make the choice. If there was sufficient evidence other than his word against her family's work, then so be it. I don't care if it was a note written on a napkin, that would still be good enough. The fact that there was nothing but heresay to substantiate anyone's claim is my problem. Just because he has said the same thing for the past 15 years or so is pointless. There are people sitting on death row right now and men who have spent 40 years in prison who still say they are innocent. Does that meant that what they are saying is true? No.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
In lieu of a living will, the law says previous conversations are sufficient proof.

Agreed. Once again, what proof is there that the conversation ever took place? There is none.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
Facts as of right now is that he gets $0 from her death.

I believe I heard that she had a life insurance policy on her, most people do, that he was to get. How much, that I do not know.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
If that was all it was he could have divorced her and given custody to her parents.

As someone else stated, he couldn't divorce her because divorce must be mutual and there was no way to do it.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
It was determined, legally, she would have wanted to die.



Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
The husband had the legal right to do what he did, if she did indicate she wouldn't want to live like that (and most Americans feel the same way BTW) than it was also his obligation to do what he did, not just walk away.

KC, please show me, where is the hard evidence that this is what she wanted? Sure, he says its what she wanted, but it could also be that not long after her collapse, he did find a girlfriend and has since had 2 kids from that woman and says he wants to marry her. You say its legal, then where is the proof? A judge has said that because he says they had the conversation, then its proof. If that is so, I should tell the judge that I had won the lottery but the ticket was stolen. I can keep saying so for 15 years too.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 33):
Suffice it to say, they both decided to do living wills after that.

And thats the correct thing to do. Of course parents will fight for their child's life and if its wanted, of course the spouse will carry out the wishes. My argument is that if there is no evidence to support either's wishes, then how can you go with either(keep in mind, her staying alive was the required thing to do until you decide if she wants to die or not). If you have a murder case, can you pin the murder on a person just because when the police arrived, this person just happened to be on the scene. Given that a weapon was never found, no prints matched, nothing there to indicate this person was guilty except the fact that he happened to be there, the is he guilty? No, because there was no HARD evidence. Same thing in both cases.

Quoting SE210Caravelle (Reply 43):
I also have heard that the husband had a girlfriend and her - the girlfriends - children. It is my understanding, and please notify me if I am wrong, that he wanted to get married with her and continue his life. He couldn't do this if Terry was still alive because Terry and him were husband and wife and he would be unable to divorce her because divorce must be mutual and Terry would be unable to agree for a divorce because of her state of condition. If Terry passed away peacefully then he would be able to continue his life and re-marry.

Thank you Caravelle, you have just proven my point. He did have a girlfriend, but he also had 2 children by this girlfriend and he DID want to marry her. But he could no do so because he was not divorced and could not be(although her parents were trying to find a judge that could legally end the marriage. But if Terri passes away, he can remarry. There is the answer, lets try to let her die so I can get married. So he fights to let her die so he can get what he wants. Well, the next time I want something so bad I could kill for it, I will keep that in mind. It would basically be the same if he smothered her while in her state. She passed away peacefully, and now I can do what I want.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 45):
. Legally the husband is the next of kin and what he says, goes.

So if a husband who's wife is in a vegetative state says she should die, but there is no proof thats what she wanted, whatever he says, goes? Its that easy, huh? I once had a goldfish that I thought was dead, but my mom wouldn't let me flush him because she wanted to be sure. I was the fish owner, therefore next of kin, so what I said, should have gone, right?



Keep in mind I am not saying this because I care anything about the case. I don't. It does not affect me in one way. What I do care about is how can you allow someone to die if there is NO PROOF. In any reply to my post, no one has been able to provide proof. The only proof was her husband's story, even though her family also had the story that she would not want to die. Unless there is hard evidence, how can you side with either? And not only that, if you are going to allow someone to die, why do it in such a cruel and inhumane way? If you are going to let her die, give her an injection and let her pass away. Its good enough for animals, why can't it be good enough for a human? Not take away her basic needs for life and have a doctor come in every day and see her state of deterioration and keep making an estimate how long she will stay alive, being made to suffer under such a cruel fate. Its amazing that what is good enough for dogs and convicts was not good enough for an innocent human being. Sad.

This horse has been beat many times, so unless someone can provide hard proof that this is what she wanted(I dont see it happening), I will likely not reply anymore.


Otto
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Once again, what proof is there that the conversation ever took place?

Several other individuals testified that Terri stated that she would not have wanted to live like that. It wasn't solely "his word against her family"

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
As someone else stated, he couldn't divorce her because divorce must be mutual and there was no way to do it.

Wrong.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
he did find a girlfriend and has since had 2 kids from that woman and says he wants to marry her

Interestingly enough, the Schindlers not only encouraged Schiavo to date other women, but took an interest in meeting his girlfriends, even meeting this current one and expressing their approval of her.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
The only proof was her husband's story, even though her family also had the story that she would not want to die.

Her parents also said that even if there was proof of a living will they would have disregarded it and put her on life support. It's less about what she would have wanted and more about the fact that her parents could not let go.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:46 pm

Otto;

There is some pretty sad irony in what you are saying. You repeatedly claim that there is no PROOF that she wanted to die, and that therefore the right of her husband to claim this and act accordingly should not have been acknowledged. Then you go on repeatedly asserting that she did NOT say this, and that the reason Michael wanted her dead was so that he could marry his girlfriend. You seem to be assuming that that is the case, with an equal paucity of evidence.

You claim that there is insufficient grounds to believe what Michael Schiavo said about his own wife. Then you go ahead and repeatedly assert that he murdered her for his own betterment, with absolutely no grounds for your own claims.

What hypocrisy. Shame on you. If you ever have the misfortune of having to make a decision like this for a member of your own family, I hope no one starts a thread on here accusing you of being a murderer.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Shiavo Autopsy Results

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Agreed. Once again, what proof is there that the conversation ever took place? There is none.

Yes there is, verified by at least two other family members.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
I believe I heard that she had a life insurance policy on her, most people do, that he was to get. How much, that I do not know.

Nope, no life insurance policy, though I am not surprised you heard that - Sean Hannity and his crowd of fellow liars spouted unproven stuff like that every day before she died. As of right now, there is no evidence that Michael Schiavo will get one cent due to her death, it just isn't true. BTW, remember she was only 26 when she collapsed, life insurance is not something a lot of twenty-something people without kids think of.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
As someone else stated, he couldn't divorce her because divorce must be mutual and there was no way to do it.

As the legal guardian of his wife, he had the right to sign over guardianship to the parents. They could have then, "speaking" on Terri's behalf, agreed to a divorce. I may be over simplifying it, since I am not a lawyer, but I believe that is the gist of it.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
KC, please show me, where is the hard evidence that this is what she wanted?

I don't understand why you can't see this. There is no hard evidence, like something written down - but the law does not require that, if you don't like that then get the law changed - but as it stands right now, all that happened here was perfectly legal. Over 8 years ago the courts in Florida determined there was sufficient evidence to prove she would not have wanted to live in this state. It was verified by at least two family members, though if I remember correctly they were on Michael's side of the family. That means they could have lied for him, but not you, nor I, nor the judge, nor any of the appellate courts could say that was the case. They all found sufficient evidence to believe what was said. Her family is delusional - despite being told the autopsy is consistent with PVS and that she was blind, they still claim she not only responded to them, but also talked to them. So of course none of her family would back that up, that's no surprise.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
If that is so, I should tell the judge that I had won the lottery but the ticket was stolen. I can keep saying so for 15 years too.

Not the same situation, that wouldn't do you any good. Nice try though!  Wink

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Same thing in both cases.

Not true - murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, that's not the standard for proving she wouldn't wanted to have lived in that state. BTW, what makes you so sure she would have wanted to live like that? Most people would not. The parents were being selfish, delusional, and ignorant - not listening to reason, science, or facts - all the while accusing M Schiavo of abuse, something else that was never, ever proven despite several investigations. I see the parents did it out of love, they didn't want to let go - but why keep a woman alive who was literally wasting away? Have you read the autopsy report? I have read it to an extent. Despite the best of care in a hospice, she had cracking, shattering bones and advanced osteoporosis, her brain had shrunk to half its normal size, her muscles were atrophied - what would the point be in keeping her alive?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
There is the answer, lets try to let her die so I can get married.

That is unsubstantiated crap and you know it. If all he wanted was a divorce, as I said before, he could have easily gotten it.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
So if a husband who's wife is in a vegetative state says she should die, but there is no proof that's what she wanted, whatever he says, goes?

No, there has to be some proof. It doesn't matter that you don't feel satisfied by the previous conversations - this is the law, and the law was upheld in this case because it was deemed there was sufficient proof - the stupid media did a disservice in reporting this case, it didn't just happen this year - this has been going on for over 8 years, she's been in this state for 15 years prior to dying. A lot of people, and I think you might fall into this category, do not know the whole story. Well, the history I should say, none of us know the whole story. The history here that you are missing, and it's not your fault because it was hardly reported, is that years ago it was determined, based on M Schiavo's claims of a conversation and with support of (at least) 2 other family members, that she would not want to be kept alive in that condition. That is the law - like it or not - and the legal system, despite the meddling of Tom Delay, Bill Frist, Mel Martinez, Jeb and GW Bush, and countless others - DID WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO!

Now we should all just hope that such a thing never happens to us, or anyone we care about, and perhaps get a living will made just in case - that is the lesson to be learned here.

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