SFOMEX
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Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:20 am

Hundred of thousands of Spaniards took the streets in Madrid to show their indignation for the soon-to-be law that would allow homosexuals to marry and adopt.

Lead by politicians and clergymen, people from all over Spain said that enough is enough to the Socialist president Zapatero, who is pushing for the pass of this divisive piece of legislation through parliament.

The demonstration was not against gays, but in defense of the family and children. It was a festive one, where people send a powerful message to the Socialist government: we won't remain silent.

It seems that people in Spain, the USA and everywhere is ready to fight for what they think is good and sacred.  Smile

http://us.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/18/spain.same.sex.ap/index.html

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/06/18/espana/1119111135.html
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:26 am

Forget good and sacred, keep that crap at home or in church. I want the same rights as everyone else.
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KC135R
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
The demonstration was not against gays, but in defense of the family and children

Yes, because allowing gay people to marry will definitely harm families and children in some way. How many times do we have to hear this crap? How does two people in love, of the same sex, getting married do ANYTHING to hurt families? I suppose, if it is said enough, people will believe it.

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
It was a festive one, where people send a powerful message to the Socialist government: we won't remain silent.

AAAH yes, a festive day of excercising the rights of freedom all in the name of limiting freedom just because you don't agree with a certain lifestyle that hurts no one. How festive.  sarcastic 
 
FDXmech
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:27 am

Did Schoenorama march.
..
..
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flyAUA
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:27 am

Ugh... gimme a break. Let people do what they want to do. The world would be a better place if everyone minded their own business!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
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alberchico
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:32 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
The demonstration was not against gays, but in defense of the family and children


Yes that's like the KKK supposedly marching only to look after the interests of ''fellow countrymen''. Its anti-gay no matter how you look at it.
Instead of these idiots protesting something that WILL NOT AFFECT THEM, mabye they should focus on the other serious problems Spain faces.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:33 am

"Did Schoenorama march."

ROFLAMO.

Nicely done.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
It seems that people in Spain, the USA and everywhere is ready to fight for what they think is good and sacred.

No sweat, SFOMEX - some folks will simply not understand the "why" about upholding traditional marriage in light of the undermining to the institution that gay marriage would bring. But, then, we've discussed it to death and beyond here, anyway.

Glad to know I put the right guy on my RR list.   


-By the way, this issue is difficult to explain from a conservative, Bible-believing standpoint, so in foresight to the posts that may follow, hopefully there will less mud-slinging back and forth this time. But I do feel there some who oppose my view who will never be able to see it from this perspective. Let civility ensue.

Edited for content

-R

[Edited 2005-06-19 02:55:12]
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GQfluffy
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:45 am

If you are gay and want to marry, FINE. But don't come out and freakin flaunt it in my face! Don't demand my respect, because you won't get it.  talktothehand  I'll support your right to be married if that's what you want, but I won't support your choice.  tapedshut 

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
KC135R
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 7):
in light of the undermining to the institution that gay marriage would bring.

From someone who strongly believes this, obviously, I want to know why you feel this way. Because I can't see how, in any way, allowing gay marriage undermines the institution. So please - enlighten me, why do you feel this way?
 
Klaus
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
The demonstration was not against gays, but in defense of the family and children.

If your marriage is irretrievably damaged by two men or women getting married somewhere else then, my friend, your marriage has not been worth anything at all right from the start.

Don´t blame your own problems on others.

You have my pity and compassion.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:56 am

Do I need to say that these people who have nothing better to do then worry about gay people getting married ARE THE problem: AGAIN??
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Hundred of thousands of Spaniards took the streets in Madrid to show their indignation for the soon-to-be law that would allow homosexuals to marry and adopt.

Or their vitriolic adherence to a church that has paid over 1 Billion dollars in hush money to abused children and destroyed families...NICE


Lead by politicians and clergymen, people from all over Spain said that enough is enough to the Socialist president Zapatero, who is pushing for the pass of this divisive piece of legislation through parliament.

The demonstration was not against gays, but in defense of the family and children. It was a festive one, where people send a powerful message to the Socialist government: we won't remain silent.

should read "the protest was for the continuation of ignoring the teachings of Jesus...I seem to remember Jesus hung out with social "degenerates" also during his day and told others "what you do unto the least of my children you do unto me"

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 7):
No sweat, SFOMEX - some folks will simply not understand the "why" about upholding traditional marriage in light of the undermining to the institution that gay marriage would bring. But, then, we've discussed it to death and beyond here, anyway.

Exactly...In the US we have 50% divorce rate and 60% of married people admit having affairs, God forbid we endanger that!

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 8):
If you are gay and want to marry, FINE. But don't come out and freakin flaunt it in my face! Don't demand my respect, because you won't get it

This was an anti-gay marriage protest, no one was flaunting anything except perhaps gay people with a sad face flaunting low self esteem caused from people that hate them for being who they are.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
If your marriage is irretrievably damaged by two men or women getting married somewhere else then, my friend, your marriage has not been worth anything at all right from the start.

Don´t blame your own problems on others.

You have my pity and compassion.

I'd suggest you to look for a good book of logic and then learn what an "ad hominem" argument is. Once you know this, reread your post and realize why your arguments are flawed.

When you're ready to argue this in a proper and rational way, I'd be more than glad to share with you the reasons behind my post.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 7):
Glad to know I put the right guy on my RR list.

Thanks. I welcome you too to my RUL.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 5):
Yes that's like the KKK supposedly marching only to look after the interests of ''fellow countrymen''. Its anti-gay no matter how you look at it.

Wrong analogy. Protesters weren't neither burning gay households nor beating the s*** out of lesbians and gays. Their rally was in support of traditional family. That's it.

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
AAAH yes, a festive day of excercising the rights of freedom all in the name of limiting freedom just because you don't agree with a certain lifestyle that hurts no one. How festive.

It was a festive one. I think I wouldn't never attend a gay pride march, but I can't deny that they are a festive and happy demonstration.
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GQfluffy
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 12):
This was an anti-gay marriage protest, no one was flaunting anything except perhaps gay people with a sad face flaunting low self esteem caused from people that hate them for being who they are.

My post didn't really have anything to do with today's protest, it was just my opinion in general.

fluffy
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 13):
I'd suggest you to look for a good book of logic and then learn what an "ad hominem" argument is. Once you know this, reread your post and realize why your arguments are flawed.

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:


Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.


I suggest you understand what you have said and quit insulting others' point of view.
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greasespot
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:08 am

We have had gay marriage in canada for over two years (in some provinces)....and I really have not noticed the traditional family collapsing....

Not even sure if there is a danger of it collapsing.....Go figure....guess the church and bigots were wrong...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
KC135R
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 13):
Wrong analogy. Protesters weren't neither burning gay households nor beating the s*** out of lesbians and gays. Their rally was in support of traditional family. That's it.

So stop avoiding the question - how does gay marriage harm the traditional family?
 
TedTAce
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 15):
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

I swear this is not a slam of your remarks, they seem educated, so that's why I'm asking.

Care to educate me on "Ad Absurdum"?

I saw it in the place where most chicks are getting tattoos these days (the small of the back) and I thought it was an interesting choice of location given what I GUESSED it meant.

I looked it up on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
and I GUESS the reductio part totally changes what her intent was.

Please let me know  Smile
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F9Widebody
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:17 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 3):
Did Schoenorama march.

No, he is the Socialist president that SFOMEX was talking about.  Wink
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Klaus
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:17 am

SFOMEX, since you´re obviously panicking in fear that gay people marrying would somehow (how exactly?) damage marriage between men and women, it is obviously necessary to address your unfounded panic.

You´re completely empty-handed on support for your ludicrous claims. It´s your own demons you´re looking at.
 
KC135R
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:17 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 13):
It was a festive one. I think I wouldn't never attend a gay pride march, but I can't deny that they are a festive and happy demonstration.

My point is - the whole premise behind trying to limit another persons freedom, just because you disagree with a lifestyle that harms no one, is what makes it impossible to be festive. It's like laughing at a funeral, it isn't appropriate.

[Edited 2005-06-19 03:19:14]
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
If your marriage is irretrievably damaged by two men or women getting married somewhere else then, my friend, your marriage has not been worth anything at all right from the start.

Don´t blame your own problems on others.

You have my pity and compassion.

Hm. Well, I won't blame my problems on others, so thanks for that encouragement, though I've never been impressed that you are one for compassion, but I'll take your word for it. But, this doesn't necessarily affect any marriage currently between any two heterosexual people. It's about the institution itself.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 9):
From someone who strongly believes this, obviously, I want to know why you feel this way. Because I can't see how, in any way, allowing gay marriage undermines the institution. So please - enlighten me, why do you feel this way?

Well, for starters, God's Word simply condemns the sexual interaction of two people of the same gender (Romans 1). That should be enough, but for most, it isn't.
Also, a same-sex marriage doesn't provide any children with the nurturing care of the mother along with the strength and direction a father can provide (among other things, as well). Yeah, yeah - many same-sex couples have children that have shown no adverse effects of such a relationship, yada, yada, yada. Show me some "scientific" evidence that proves a same-sex couple can provide as fit a home environment as a married heterosexual couple can. And, yeah, folks can go on (with limited examples)about how some traditional homes are full of so many problems and issues - dad beats mom, dad cheats, dad and mom divorce and so on. I'm talking about on the whole.
Also, any society that has adopted homosexuality on the whole has quickly fallen never to return. Like it or not, the Bible is also a historical book, so Sodom and Gomorrah cannot be simply dismissed as nothing. And there's also Rome, at the end of the empire.
I could go on and on, but (beyond the moral perspectives) in the end this is a legal issue. And as long as there are morally-minded individuals in power (or, at least, individuals who listen to their morally-minded constituents), there will not be same-sex marriage (except, for some reason, in Massachusetts). And, no, it's not against anyone's Constitutional rights to not provide the same provisions and recognition to same-sex couples as they are provided to married heterosexual couples. It's just not found in the Constitution - not in Article IX, or Article XIV or anywhere else. And, unfortunately, there's almost no way to tell it like it is without appearing arrogant to some, but, it's just that simple, regardless of the coming windfall of contention.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
I swear this is not a slam of your remarks, they seem educated, so that's why I'm asking.

Care to educate me on "Ad Absurdum"?

No negative taken, that is a very good analogy as well.

It basically says if one person's opinion about a topic can be disproved, all opinions are invalid. I find that quite appropo.

I try to never judge anyone else since I don't live in their body and do not have their life experience. I tend to respect the laws of the land and respect others as I was taught to do as a good Catholic boy (10 Years of Catholic school!).

Thank you for adding some levity to the situation.

On a side note, per your profile I agree, MCSE's can make some HUGE messes!
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greasespot
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
Yeah, yeah - many same-sex couples have children that have shown no adverse effects of such a relationship, yada, yada, yada. Show me some "scientific" evidence that proves a same-sex couple can provide as fit a home environment as a married heterosexual couple can.

Show me some scientific proof that it DOES harm...


Not everyone believes in YOUR god or your Book. Plenty of people look it as one of the greatest works of fiction interspersed with embelishments or real events...


I am still waiting to hear how Gay marriage harms your family.....Wait i know........Your married and you mary a man......That would probabbly be the end of your traditional family...Seriously i cannot see how a gay marriage hurt yours....Againg it comes down to arrogant people sticking their nose into places they have no business stiicking it....I do not stick my nose into your life so please do not stick your into mine....

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:34 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
Do I need to say that these people who have nothing better to do then worry about gay people getting married ARE THE problem: AGAIN??

If proclaiming principles found in God's Word is a problem, I guess I have to choose between what He thinks and what you or someone else thinks. A real coin-toss.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 12):
I seem to remember Jesus hung out with social "degenerates"

Very true. I'm a sinner, and He saved me, but He also has laws that must be observed (yeah, even though Christ fulfilled the law, there are some rules that must be followed). He's a loving God, but He's also a holy God.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 12):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 7):
No sweat, SFOMEX - some folks will simply not understand the "why" about upholding traditional marriage in light of the undermining to the institution that gay marriage would bring. But, then, we've discussed it to death and beyond here, anyway.

Exactly...In the US we have 50% divorce rate and 60% of married people admit having affairs, God forbid we endanger that!

Yeah, let's add to the damage.  Yeah sure

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 16):
Not even sure if there is a danger of it collapsing.....Go figure....guess the church and bigots were wrong

So you think if you stand on a hilltop and taunt God, or laugh that there's no judgement or consequence that He'll up and strike you down right then and there? When getting into spiritual matters such as this, who are any of us to say what God's timetable is for anything, for whatever it be? Like anybody said marriage would "collapse" right away . . .  Yeah sure

Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):
You´re completely empty-handed on support for your ludicrous claims.

In light of an objective Source that I've referenced, your subjective arguement has what basis?

-R
Living the American Dream
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:38 am

I'd point out that people also said that marriage would collapse if interracial marriage was permitted because it violated biblical precepts. Looks like we're still doing A-OK 40 years after Loving v. Virginia.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
It's about the institution itself.

Tell that to the rest of your ilk who say it destroys 'normal' families

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
(Romans 1). That should be enough, but for most, it isn't.

Yeah because that is a quote from a book written by men purporting it to be 'the word of god'. When God himself/herself picks up a pen, I'll bother to care.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
It's just not found in the Constitution -

Dumb de Dumb dum...

From: http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

Quote:
Article XIV.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Key words: No State; any law; abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. By denying gays the right to marry you are abrigding privilege. Go back to school on this one, and stop LYING to suit your needs...
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 25):
Very true. I'm a sinner, and He saved me, but He also has laws that must be observed (yeah, even though Christ fulfilled the law, there are some rules that must be followed). He's a loving God, but He's also a holy God

Better wip out Leviticus, divorce, and shellfish are also an abomination, I say we burn all the Red Losters tonight!
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
Klaus
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:43 am

The "objective source" being a book of fiction that has been disproved in any claim which could ever be verified? You´re kidding, right?

The essence of christian teaching was that love matters more than authoritarian teachings, that rules need to be questioned and that people are never worthless.

Propaganda like the one described above violates every one of those tenets.

Even more than that, a bunch of people who by their own definition don´t have a clue about what homosexuality actually is are proposing wild theories about it and its presumed consequences for society - which again have been proven wrong already in several countries.

Oh ye of little faith!
 
SFOMEX
Topic Author
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:45 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 17):
how does gay marriage harm the traditional family?

Society everywhere is based upon some fundamental bases. Among them, family is at the top. Despite the many differences we can find in each culture, almost all share the importance of family (mother, father and children) at the core of their society.

Gay marriage (be careful, I'm not including civil partnership here) is a direct thread to the core of our society. If we accept it, we will open the door to a redefinition of what makes us a society. Dad, mom and children are far more that something we can change as we see fit. It's beyond us since it's at the core of what we are.

Even more, the VAST majority of the people don't want a change on this matter. Why the so-called progressive crowd think that they have the right to change our society even if most of us are against those changes is beyond me.

I hope I was clear enough.

BTW: I won't address those posts that attack my person rather than my ideas. I just don't care enough about them. On the other hand, I will always try to respectfully answer the arguments of those fellow A.netters who disagree with me.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
mother, father and children)



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
Dad, mom and children are far more that something we can change

In light of your last paragraph, I respectfully submit that married couples who cannot or do not wish to have children should be forced to divorce since they do not fit your definition of a family.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 24):
I am still waiting to hear how Gay marriage harms your family

Refer to my previous posts - I didn't say it harmed my marriage in particular but that it undermines the institution as a whole. When God said “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him” (Genesis 2:18), He made Adam a wife. Man's 1st and only mate was a woman, thus gay marriage undermines the original intent of who is involved in such a relationship. He said later in the same chapter "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh", so the intent of marriage was laid down from the start. Also, it undermines marriage in that marriage between a man and his wife is a picture of Christ and His church (as stated, for one, at the end of Ephesians 5).

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 24):
. Plenty of people look it as one of the greatest works of fiction interspersed with embelishments or real events...

Thus:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 7):
I do feel there some who oppose my view who will never be able to see it from this perspective.



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 24):
I do not stick my nose into your life so please do not stick your into mine....

Just because Bible-believing people interject Biblical views into social discussions doesn't mean that any of us are specifically "sticking our noses" in your business in particular. And, though God ordained marriage as it should be (as previously stated), I know that marriage is not just a "Christian" institution (Heb. 13:4), but an institution that can be used honorably among all peoples, regardless if they are Christian. So if you don't like the law as it is, then, fine, get it changed - or you can break the law or deal with it.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
KC135R
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
Well, for starters, God's Word simply condemns the sexual interaction of two people of the same gender (Romans 1). That should be enough, but for most, it isn't.

Well not everyone believes in God, or Christianity specifically, so that is irrelevant. Besides, the whole point of Christianity is being "Christ Like" and Christ probably would not approve of treating gays as less than equal, judging by how he acted towards other outcasts and sinners.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
Yeah, yeah - many same-sex couples have children that have shown no adverse effects of such a relationship

Which is true, and has been studied and proven as true, yet then you say this:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
Show me some "scientific" evidence that proves a same-sex couple can provide as fit a home environment as a married heterosexual couple can.

It has been studied and proven that kids raised by homosexual parents have nearly identical ups and downs.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
Also, a same-sex marriage doesn't provide any children with the nurturing care of the mother along with the strength and direction a father can provide (among other things, as well).

That is not a provable remark. Sure, homosexual marriages would be either two mothers or two fathers, but how can you (or anyone) say that two men or two women can't provide both nurturing and strength? You don't know that. Plus, it is entirely possible a man and a woman can't together provide those things for a child - there is a widespread problem called "bad parents", ever heard of them?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
so Sodom and Gomorrah cannot be simply dismissed as nothing.

Except that the translation of that story is controversial. Many believe that all of the town wanted to have relations with the angels, not just the men, indicating that the town was morally bankrupt in many ways, hence its destruction. In other words, the implied homosexuality might have been only a small part of the whole problem.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
And there's also Rome, at the end of the empire.

True, most people believe homosexuality was rampant in Rome - but I haven't heard any rational reason why I should believe that led to the downfall. How about all the nation building, spreading their empire to areas they couldn't control - maybe some of that was the bigger problem. Nice try though.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
And, no, it's not against anyone's Constitutional rights to not provide the same provisions and recognition to same-sex couples as they are provided to married heterosexual couples. It's just not found in the Constitution

Nor does it prohibit it anywhere. What this country was founded on though is the principal that all men (people) are created equal. The only objection anyone can have to gay marriage is religion. The US constitution provides for the separation of church and state, this clearly violates that. I am ready for your argument against this, I am sure it will come, but it's the truth. There's no public safety concern in gay marriage. There's no way it will undermine traditional families. So the government should not prevent it.

Here's a story for you:
When I lived in Florida, a female officer was killed in Tampa while trying to apprehend a robbery suspect. She was a Lesbian and had a partner, a fellow cop, she had been with for years. Her survivor benefits would not pay out to her partner, why? Because TPD didn't recognize such a union as legal. So the surviving partner got nothing. The two of them had built a life together - shared a house, bills, etc. The purpose of survivor benefits is to help in that situation, but no help would come in this case. So tell me this, is that the right, moral thing? If she had been living with a man she would have either been married, or married by common law, but since it was a woman that didn't hold up. Stuff like this happens all the time. It's time to stop preaching about morals and realize it's more immoral for stuff like this to happen than for homosexuals to be allowed to marry.

It's ok to disapprove of homosexuality, you don't even have to like gay people. But two gay people getting married will not affect you, nor will it hurt anyone. If you truly are a compassionate person who has morals, maybe you should look past your ignorance, lack of understanding, disgust, fear - whatever it is - and realize that all human beings deserve to be treated with dignity, respect, and fair treatment.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 32):
Refer to my previous posts - I didn't say it harmed my marriage in particular but that it undermines the institution as a whole. When God said “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him” (Genesis 2:18),

That would be for religious marriage, not civil marriage they are two different concepts, that whole "seperation of church and state" in the constitution seems to be forgotten about these days.

[Edited 2005-06-19 04:03:24]
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SFOMEX
Topic Author
Posts: 1602
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 31):
In light of your last paragraph, I respectfully submit that married couples who cannot or do not wish to have children should be forced to divorce since they do not fit your definition of a family.

Hehehe, good argument. The only problem is that you fail to see the ontologic distintion between a a gay couple and a childless marriage. (Sorry if I sound presumptuous, but it's the only way I can fully say what I'm trying to explain).

A married couple that "cannot or do not wish to have children" is a family in the whole sense of the word. Why? Beacause the ability to procreate is there, even if only in a potential way. They have everything we accept as elements of a family.

On the other hand, a gay couple lacks, factually and potentially, the ability to procreate. It's the way it is. Therefore, they are ontologically different to a childless marriage.

[Edited 2005-06-19 04:19:24]
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ltbewr
Posts: 12393
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RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:07 am

One problem with same gender 'Gay' civil (government license) marriage, is that those whom issue the licenses or may be asked to preform a civil 'Gay' or same gender marriage (depending on the jurisdiction in the USA, that can include judges or local mayors) may be counter to their religious faith or cause them to be excommunicated (in the Catholic Church) if they were to preform one.
There is no doubt that alternatives such as 'Civil Unions' in some of the USA states and cities have major problems such as not being universially recoginzed in all USA states if outside the such jurisdictions. The other side is that Gay marriage is totally against all recognized religious faiths around the world. Hense the conflict.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:13 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 25):
Yeah, let's add to the damage.

How will it add to the divorce rate?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 25):
Very true. I'm a sinner, and He saved me, but He also has laws that must be observed (yeah, even though Christ fulfilled the law, there are some rules that must be followed). He's a loving God, but He's also a holy God.

So it's ok to commit some sins, God will forgive you for that - just not homosexuality. Aaah yes, the hypocritical "levels of sin" we often hear of. A sin is a sin is a sin - we are all sinners (those who believe). God does not differentiate between levels of sin - except maybe in laying out the most important stuff, the Ten Commandments, which says nothing about homosexuality.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
Among them, family is at the top

But who defines what a family is? What if I said a family is a loving, nurturing environment - nothing else - do you think a gay couple cannot have that?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
Gay marriage (be careful, I'm not including civil partnership here) is a direct thread to the core of our society

So do you approve of civil unions?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
If we accept it, we will open the door to a redefinition of what makes us a society.

So what, it's called evolution - society has evolved constantly over the years, and I am not talking about from monkeys to people. I mean in how we live, how we act, etc. Should we not have power, fire, running water, beds to sleep on because it redefines society?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
Even more, the VAST majority of the people don't want a change on this matter.

That's because the vast majority of the people are not gay, it doesn't mean the majority is right. Was it right to keep the minority black population in the US enslaved because most people wanted slaves? NO - it was morally wrong to enslave people. It is also morally wrong for a government, that espouses freedom as most democratic societies do, to prevent two people from having equal protection under the law based only on sexuality. It does no good, it protects no one - there's no reason other than religious claims and religious law only applies in places like Iran.

SFOMEX, I respect your opinion, but nothing you said explains how gay marriage hurts traditional marriage. You speak of tradition, changing society, etc - but you say nothing about how it will hurt a traditional marriage, which is what I ask because that's what everyone is claiming.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 35):
A married couple that "cannot or do not wish to have children" are a family in the whole sense of the word. Why? Because the ability to procreate is there, even if only in a potential way. They have everything we accept as elements of a family.

Wait, let me get this straight - what makes a family is having the ability, whether you choose to use it or not, to procreate? That's what we accept as the element of a family? Love, nurturing, support, teaching, and other stuff like this - that's not what makes a family a family? I think it is - and if that's the case then two men, or two women, can just as easily provide that.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 36):
One problem with same gender 'Gay' civil (government license) marriage, is that those whom issue the licenses or may be asked to preform a civil 'Gay' or same gender marriage (depending on the jurisdiction in the USA, that can include judges or local mayors) may be counter to their religious faith or cause them to be excommunicated (in the Catholic Church) if they were to preform one.

What am I missing? That is why we have the seperation of church and state, No church is allowed to run the country. Your logic also applies to pharmicists that are asked to fill birth control perscriptions, they must still fill them regardless of religious beliefs.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 35):
Why? Beacause the ability to procreate is there, even if only in a potential way. They have everything we accept as elements of a family.

Huh? A gay person could go out and have sex with a straight person and have a baby "in a potential way", then they would have a child for their marriage. Wow, talk about Ad Hominem.
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allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 26):
I'd point out that people also said that marriage would collapse if interracial marriage was permitted because it violated biblical precepts.

Yeah, but that goes back to the (continuing) arguements that homosexual behavior is akin natural born characteristics, such as color.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 27):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
It's about the institution itself.

Tell that to the rest of your ilk who say it destroys 'normal' families

Well, honestly, there are some chest-thumping, Bible-thumping people who choose to be ignorant and, who, unfortunately, condescend to people directly about this like they're on some soapbox. But, there are some of us who try to avoid that.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 27):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 22):
(Romans 1). That should be enough, but for most, it isn't.

Yeah because that is a quote from a book written by men purporting it to be 'the word of god'. When God himself/herself picks up a pen, I'll bother to care.

Read 2 Timothy 3:16. Like a bunch of guys (pretty much all Jewish, many of whom never met each other down here) just sat down, over the span of thousands of years, and put together a Book that has inspired millions and has been widely accepted among millions for centuries, and is the most widely selling Book of all time, by far. Maybe there's just a little something supernatural about that. Just maybe.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 27):
Quote:
Article XIV.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Key words: No State; any law; abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. By denying gays the right to marry you are abrigding privilege. Go back to school on this one, and stop LYING to suit your needs...

Definition Ted - that's not a privilege. Dictionary.com, just for kicks: "A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste." Homosexual marriage is not an advantage, nor an immunity, nor a permission, nor a right, nor a benefit granted by our laws (except in Massachusetts).

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 28):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 25):
Very true. I'm a sinner, and He saved me, but He also has laws that must be observed (yeah, even though Christ fulfilled the law, there are some rules that must be followed). He's a loving God, but He's also a holy God

Better wip out Leviticus, divorce, and shellfish are also an abomination, I say we burn all the Red Losters tonight!

Hey you forgot a few: adultery, fornication, theft . . . what's your point?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
The "objective source" being a book of fiction that has been disproved in any claim which could ever be verified? You´re kidding, right?

Disproved? When? By whom? In any claim which could ever be verified? Name one "disproved" part. Was it by the same people that inspired your circular reasoning about evolution?  scratchchin 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Even more than that, a bunch of people who by their own definition don´t have a clue about what homosexuality actually is are proposing wild theories about it and its presumed consequences for society - which again have been proven wrong already in several countries.

Oh ye of little faith!

 laughing  "A bunch of people who by their own definition don't have a clue about what homosexuality actually is" - pray tell who that is? Proven wrong in several countries? I give you those same countries (whichever you have in mind) as cultures of immorality. I trust (until you can prove otherwise) that you'd be hard-pressed to show me a good number of countries where homosexuality is widely accepted, as opposed to being tolerated, even among the whole

-R
Living the American Dream
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 32):
I do feel there some who oppose my view who will never be able to see it from this perspective

And Thus I am not asking you To understand it from my perspective.....I want you to stay the hell out of my life.....MY family.....I am not trying to intrude in yours.....You do not see me running arround saying your "traditional family" is threatening the non traditional family and should be banned...


Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 32):
So if you don't like the law as it is, then, fine, get it changed - or you can break the law or deal with it.

Being Canadian...This is Being changed...In fact it is legal....Or more correctly there is no law restricting it since the provincal supreme court in Ontario struck the law down...


I have a problem with people teling me who i can and cannot marry and therefore form a family with.....


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
zeekiel
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:59 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:25 am

Gay people who live and build a life together as a couple are our bankers, police, pilots, neighbours, executives and in some cases family and friends. They take their kids (if they have them) to weekend little league games, school and help them through their struggles in life.

While I do not approve of the gay lifestyle, they get my full respect and everyone should give them that. They raise their kids in society with equal zeal and zest as a straight couple (or straight parents). They strive for the same goals as everyone else.

Gay marriage may not be the correct term (civil union sounds better) or whatever. I mean correct term in the true meaning of word "marriage". Or the commonly accepted definition of marriage.

Not to say marriage is sacred anyway. In the words of Chris Rock "Marriage is not sacred, not in America it isn't!!!". The reasons he lists after that  Smile.

The gay community numbers a single digit population percentage. They are few and far between. Gay marriage (or civil unions) will not destroy the order of family. The "traditional" family (man, wife, 2 and bit kids) is in cement. But gay marriage is not the "thing" that threatens the family.

What will threaten countries (like New Zealand and Japan) is a falling birthrate coupled with men and women who do not wish to get married or have children. That threatens the family. That undermines the existence of the family.

Women are choosing to have kids later on in life (the average age of having the first child) reducing the years in which they can have kids or not at all as they follow careers. Men are choosing to follow and cement their careers as well but are looking for partners, rather than a long term commitment.

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 40):
Yeah, but that goes back to the (continuing) arguements that homosexual behavior is akin natural born characteristics, such as color.

Do you know that it's not?
 
SFOMEX
Topic Author
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 37):
But who defines what a family is?

Hundreds of years of tradition. Most world's religions. The vast majority of the people.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 37):
So do you approve of civil unions?

Yes, I do.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 37):
you say nothing about how it will hurt a traditional marriage

I posted that the family is a the core of what makes us a society. If you change the definition of family in order to accept many kind of "families" you are in fact destroying what family always has been.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 38):
Wait, let me get this straight - what makes a family is having the ability, whether you choose to use it or not, to procreate?

I didn't say that. I was answering another A.netter's argument which said that under my definition of family a childless marriage wouldn't be a family.

Procreation is an important part of a family, but family itself is more than that.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 44):
Yes, I do.

Well if it's just an issue of wording, you and I don't disagree, per se. Would you agree that civil unions should provide all the protections of marriage?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 44):
Hundreds of years of tradition. Most world's religions. The vast majority of the people.

Tradition - how does tradition distinguish between right and wrong? Should we re-enslave black people? Should women go back to being second class citizens? If you say no, than tell me how tradition means anything when it comes to laws.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 44):
I posted that the family is a the core of what makes us a society. If you change the definition of family in order to accept many kind of "families" you are in fact destroying what family always has been.

No, you redefine it, that doesn't mean you destroy it. It is two different things.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 40):
Hey you forgot a few: adultery, fornication, theft . . . what's your point?

my point is that many Christians (of which I count myself) gleefully insult others yet forget that when you point a finger there are three pointing back at yourself.

None of us is able pass judgement on anyone else, so let's just not judge. (let he who has not sinned cast the first stone)
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KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 44):
I posted that the family is a the core of what makes us a society.

Actually, I take issue with this remark. I think humanity is the core of society, the part of humanity that has to do with being humane and benevolent. How we treat each other is the truest test of what kind of person we are. As someone who was raised to believe Christianity, I think this is the biggest message Jesus taught - that all people should treat each other with kindness and respect. Love thy enemy, etc... The family is nothing without humanity, the world is nothing without humanity. Treating gay people as less than human is not Christ-like, is not Christian, and is not showing humanity at all. Marriage is an institution of society, yes, but it is not the core of society. Why have a society if we can't all get along and live happily? What is the point of society if not to be a support system? Family is only one small part of society - humanity is, to me, the core of society.
 
adam
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:45 pm

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 31):
:
In light of your last paragraph, I respectfully submit that married couples who cannot or do not wish to have children should be forced to divorce since they do not fit your definition of a family.



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 35):
Hehehe, good argument. The only problem is that you fail to see the ontologic distintion between a a gay couple and a childless marriage. (Sorry if I sound presumptuous, but it's the only way I can fully say what I'm trying to explain).

A married couple that "cannot or do not wish to have children" is a family in the whole sense of the word. Why? Beacause the ability to procreate is there, even if only in a potential way. They have everything we accept as elements of a family.

On the other hand, a gay couple lacks, factually and potentially, the ability to procreate. It's the way it is. Therefore, they are ontologically different to a childless marriage.

If they chose not to have a family, they are not fulfilling the "duty" for lack of better word, that God has given us humans. In lieu of children, they should divorce immediately and pray for forgiveness.

Life would be so much easier if people would mind their own fucking business. I could care less who marries who. I have my own problems. Some people just have no life, or nothing in their life to be apart of so they join the initiative to ruin other people's life. I pitty them all.

adammm
Texas: You'll come for the Alamo, You'll stay because you were wrongfully executed. - Conan O'Brian State Quarters
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Huge Rally In Spain Against Gay Marriage

Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:09 pm

KC135R very well put. Thank you!
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