gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:27 am

I have gotten so tired of hearing "the will of the people" as the basis for taking votes to limit the rights and liberties of American citizens (I assume this also applies to other Democratic countries).

I have cut and pasted a response I made in another thread that I think will likely not get read by the majority of readers. It provides a link that helps outline my argument. I suggest that anyone interested in actual freedom do some further research on the topic as well.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 23):
If we start passing laws based on what the MINORITY wants, as opposed to the MAJORITY, then it becomes a dictatorship.



No. No no no no no. You are confused about the basic fundamentals of a republic and the teachings of our founding fathers, and I've tried to correct you on this a million times yet you've never really responded nor engaged in any rational defense of your position.

Majority rules sucks. Its not the foundation upon which a free state exists. Democracy, and a republic-style government, are functional only when they protect the rights and needs of the minority DESPITE the will of the majority. As I've said a billion times, and others here have too, basic civil rights were UNPOPULAR legislation. But it was the RIGHT THING TO DO.

Surely you can't defend the position that the abolition of slavery (massively unpopular), the desegregation of schools (massively unpopular) , women's suffrage (massively unpopular), and so on were failures of our democratic system. If you can, I'm all ears.

Our Constitution is SPECIFICALLY WORDED to limit the ability of the American people to vote on something that would infringe on an individual right. Our powers of election here in the US are meant to name individuals to office.


Here's some reading for you to do about the responsibility of the American state to NOT succumb to majority rule as intended by the Constitution and the founding fathers, as well as the inherent limits set in said document on the ability of someone like you to take rights away from someone like me:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/otj70.htm


It points out pretty clearly the views of Thomas Jefferson and the people who established the country, but then also points out the ways that the system fails and the folly of modern goverment to protect individual liberties. I found it pretty interesting.

N

[Edited 2005-06-20 18:33:15]
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:16 am

It's too bad that those who most need to read this won't. Too many conservatives have fixed beliefs (i.e., misconceptions) about our government that just won't die in the face of knowledge.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
squared
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RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Gigneil (Thread starter):
Our Constitution is SPECIFICALLY WORDED to limit the ability of the American people to vote on something that would infringe on an individual right. Our powers of election here in the US are meant to name individuals to office.


 yes 

Quite simply, all modern representative democracies make provisions that limit the "Tyranny of the Majority", so that the rights of minorities are not trampled upon. It's not an extremely profound concept, anyone who has even remotely studied Poli Sci should know this.  Yeah sure

SQuared
 
Pendrilsaint
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:46 am

RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:30 am

Yeah, I suggest everyone sit down and read the Anti Federalists Papers and the Federalist papers as well. The Federalist papers upset me a lot...I think the Anti-Federalists are infinitely more wise and well-reasoned...oh well...we know who won.
 
slider
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RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:07 am

Pendrilsaint-

The book "Founding Brothers" by Joseph Ellis is excellent and it delves into that Federalist/Anti-Federalist thing a bit more in one of the excerpted chronicles.

Really an outstanding book. It's profound to me how wise the Founders were in so many regards, as if they did have a crystal ball to see the eternal battle between a powerful Federal govt VS states and individual rights.

********************************

On topic of individual liberties, I would say that we are governed more by regulation and unelected people as well as our own elected people who trample the Constitution daily moreso than by the voters themselves who may violate the "minority right, majority rule" notion. In fact, I would say the latter is a red herring compared to the former in terms of scale, depth and magnitude.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:19 am

This is a prime example of why we need to improve education in the United States. probably 80% of the US population could not explain the Constitution if pressed.

We are becoming a nation of severely obese, gluttonous, self-righteous self-centered idiots.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
csavel
Posts: 1265
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RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:40 am

Gigneil,
Your post should be required reading before posting anything in this forum.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 5):
We are becoming a nation of severely obese, gluttonous, self-righteous self-centered idiots.

A damned shame, and tough to take but true, we want to sit our fat asses in our SUV and go from one store to another to shove more and more crap in our hypertrophied McMansions.

ANd when gas hits a high and we have to OMFG *sacrifice* we turn into a nation of whiners.

It's gonna be a rude awakening when the shit hits the fan.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
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RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:57 am

.

Quoting Gigneil (Thread starter):
As I've said a billion times, and others here have too, basic civil rights were UNPOPULAR legislation. But it was the RIGHT THING TO DO.

Surely you can't defend the position that the abolition of slavery (massively unpopular), the desegregation of schools (massively unpopular) , women's suffrage (massively unpopular), and so on were failures of our democratic system. If you can, I'm all ears.

Our Constitution is SPECIFICALLY WORDED to limit the ability of the American people to vote on something that would infringe on an individual right. Our powers of election here in the US are meant to name individuals to office.

You are 100% correct here.
I was gonna bring this up but you beat me to it Gigneil and you are 100% correct. For all the people against Gay Marrage think back to the 1860's and the 1960's then the slaves were freed. AS you said in 1863 do you think that majority of white people wanted to make black people free from slavery, however Lincoln had the balls to do the right thing. Now fast foward to the 1960's and its the same thing. So 40 years later what is the big argument about giving gays the right to marriage, who does this really affect except the churches which have their right to marry whoever they want anyway. How is Gay Marriage going to collapse US ot any society serioulsly. What I think needs to happen is that the gay community needs a leader willing to fight for this right like Martin Luther King Jr. did for black rights.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Thread starter):
I have gotten so tired of hearing "the will of the people" as the basis for taking votes to limit the rights and liberties of American citizens (I assume this also applies to other Democratic countries).

The implication of your post to civil rights is very true, although its applicability specifically to gay marriage at the federal level is arguable (under the 10th Amendment, for example).

However, the American left seems perfectly willing to infringe on the economic freedom of small groups of people if these policies are widely popular or fulfill some arbitrary notion of "fairness." As Nobel Prize winner F. A. Hayek put it:

"We must face the fact that the preservation of individual freedom is incompatible with a full satisfaction of our views of distributive justice.... Even the striving for equality by means of a directed economy can result only in an officially enforced inequality -- an authoritarian determination of the status of each individual in the new hierarchical order." (Individualism and the Economic Order and The Road to Serfdom).

Progressive taxation, wealth redistribution schemes, and many other traditionally liberal social programs essentially exploit a minority to benefit the majority. The fact that this minority is "the rich" makes politically palatable what would otherwise be unthinkable (replace "the rich" with "blacks," "Jews," "left-handed people," etc.).

The encroachment of federal authority into areas never conceived by the Framers should also be a concern for liberals, but like the conservatives have shown in the past several years, they have no problem accepting big and intrusive government as long as it suits their political ends.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
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RE: Some Education On Democracy/Federalist Republics

Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:14 pm

Quoting Pendrilsaint (Reply 3):
Yeah, I suggest everyone sit down and read the Anti Federalists Papers and the Federalist papers as well. The Federalist papers upset me a lot...I think the Anti-Federalists are infinitely more wise and well-reasoned...oh well...we know who won.

Actually, if you read the Federalist Papers more closely, particularly 51, you can see that the wording Madison used can easily be read to mean say all Neil said and more

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 8):
The implication of your post to civil rights is very true, although its applicability specifically to gay marriage at the federal level is arguable (under the 10th Amendment, for example).

The 10th Amendment was largely invalidated by the 14th.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 8):
However, the American left seems perfectly willing to infringe on the economic freedom of small groups of people if these policies are widely popular or fulfill some arbitrary notion of "fairness."

Abolition of slavery was seen by many as in infringement on the economic freedom of a rather large group, yet it was absolutely the right thing. Your "infringement" here is done to protect the life, liberty and property of the working class and poor and end economic slavery to the rich

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 8):
The encroachment of federal authority into areas never conceived by the Framers should also be a concern for liberals, but like the conservatives have shown in the past several years, they have no problem accepting big and intrusive government as long as it suits their political ends.

Again, not only has technological advancement as well as land/population size of the US brought about the need for greater central control, but the Constitution was actually changed nearly 140 years ago to cut down a lot of the state power in the 10th Amendment
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