bohica
Posts: 2349
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:39 pm

F1 made complete fools of themselves at Indy. Here is a group of snotty assholes that refuse to compromise in any way, shape, or form to give the few U.S. fans the race they spent lots of money to see. F1 is driven by politics and safety is not a consideration. Now we have several disputes within disputes. We have F1 blaming Michelin and vise versa. We also have Ferrari blaming the other teams and vise versa. Who loses? The U.S. racing fans who are no longer fans of F1.

I hope all who attended the U.S grand prix get a refund and that F1 has to pay the Indianapolis Motor Speedway for the refunds. I hope Tony George tells F1 to go f*ck themselves, tear out the infield road course, and tear down the F1 garages. Let's return Indy to a mecca for oval track racing.

In the U.S. we have NASCAR. We have the IRL, which is gaining in popularity. We also have NHRA. We don't need F1.

Good riddance F1. Pack your crap and get the hell out of the U.S. And don't come back. I hope the door hits you in the ass on the way out.
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:45 pm

Give me a refund and I'll be happier
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:04 pm

Have you watched NASCAR lately?

IRL is just NASCAR with less dilluted talent and open wheels


We need F1... It is nice to see people turn right as well as left.


Drag racing puts me to sleep faster than NASCAR.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
N317AS
Posts: 941
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 1:25 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:07 pm

Crash in the first turn, Schumacher leads, by 20 seconds, Schumacher pits, Schumacher leads by 30 seconds after the pit because everyone else was thinking backwards. Oh there is something in Shumachers mirror, is it a William or McClaren, no it's just a fly along for the ride. Schumacher wins. Yawnfest. The only difference this week, is there wasn't a crash in the first turn. No great loss in the US.
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
swisskloten
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 2):

IRL is just NASCAR with less dilluted talent and open wheels

I agree totally. Seeing them go round and round just puts me to sleep! Oh, and remember Tony George stated very firmly that the IRL was to be a purely oval series? Well, they now have a street course. I don't care how fast I'm going. If I'm going to be spending 10 years racing in circles, I'd have to quit because I'd be bored to death. Why do you think I've seen only three NASCAR races in the last four years?
 
dragon-wings
Posts: 3998
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:55 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:21 pm

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
In the U.S. we have NASCAR. We have the IRL, which is gaining in popularity. We also have NHRA. We don't need F1.

You forgot Champ Car World Series racing (CART).
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
swisskloten
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:31 pm

Dragon-wings,

Champ Car is a sad shadow of its former self. Since Tony "Hitler" George hates them so bitterly (and I'd ask him why when he has his own series), he'll bend over to destroy it at any cost. A reason it's called Champ Car is Tony managed to take them to court and pass an injunction that prevents them from using the word Indy. Talk about greed. I bet when he takes a piss, oil comes out! I don't hate the IRL but I don't watch them either. It's too boring watching cars going around in circles all day. The day he had a race on the streets was just a cheap attempt to bash the IndyCar World Series. Hey George! I used the word "Indy." So sue me! Ha ha ha!!
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:42 pm

CART is gonna die soon... No money... No Tv time.. No Chance to make money
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
dragon-wings
Posts: 3998
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:55 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting Swisskloten (Reply 6):
Champ Car is a sad shadow of its former self.


Agreed! Bring back the days of Bobby Rahal, Al Unser Jr, Michael Andretti, Paul Trcay, and Mark Blundell.

Quoting Swisskloten (Reply 6):
I don't hate the IRL but I don't watch them either. It's too boring watching cars going around in circles all day.

I don't watch it either for that very reason.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:54 pm

I believe CART is already pretty much dead. Didn't they file for bankruptcy? I really wish this CART/IRL political bullshit would end and the series merge back together to compete with NASCAR. But no, too many narrow minded assholes who only think of themselves controlling the situation right now. So sad.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4310
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:01 pm

Michelin, don't come back.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:46 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:24 pm

The difference between the aforementioned "motorsports" and F1 is that no one gives a s..t abiut NASCAR, IRL or CART outside of North America.

The US is a market F1 can afford to lose, it shall (...) be replaced by India or something else.

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:46 pm

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 11):
The US is a market F1 can afford to lose, it shall (...) be replaced by India or something else.

All nice, but the numbers still suck.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5923-1662503,00.html
 
planespotterx
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:34 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:37 pm

I wonder if its time for the USA to experience the WRC, or at least let them see what its all about, much more entertaining and exciting than F1 will ever be.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:46 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:41 pm

Quoting Planespotterx (Reply 13):
I wonder if its time for the USA to experience the WRC, or at least let them see what its all about, much more entertaining and exciting than F1 will ever be.

Hmmm...imagine WRC cars running on ovals  Silly

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
trav110
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting Planespotterx (Reply 13):
I wonder if its time for the USA to experience the WRC, or at least let them see what its all about, much more entertaining and exciting than F1 will ever be.

I agree 110%, racing in circles for 500 miles bores me to tears, but WRC kicks ass  thumbsup 
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 14):
Hmmm...imagine WRC cars running on ovals Silly

Got 20Euros to bet that if the WRC came to the USA there would be barricades along the race course to prevent the spectators from accidentally getting hit by cars...of course after the fact that any driver from the US would get their @$$ handed to them faster than they could say Peugeot.
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:37 pm

Gents,

Don't blame F1 - blame Michelin. Should the rules be changed for one race just because they were incapable of providing a tire that could do the job? What would happen next time Bridgestone screwed up and caused the Ferraris to be slow?

I sure as hell don't blame all of you in the states for being highly pissed off (even more so if you actually paid good cash to be there) but don't blame F1 or the FIA - blame Michelin - it was there fault. They say they had no choice but to withdraw - bollocks - have a look at

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-02.html

and

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-03.html

and

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html

You can't blame the FIA.
Bring out the gimp
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 17):
Should the rules be changed for one race just because they were incapable of providing a tire that could do the job?

Yes - allow them to replace the tires... its a non-issue and when the FIA removes their head from their ass they will realise this.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 18):
Yes - allow them to replace the tires... its a non-issue and when the FIA removes their head from their ass they will realise this.

Righto - then when Ferrari want to have the same apply for them when they get to the next race and their tires are shite - should they be allowed to ask that the rules are changed to help them? (By the way I am not a Ferrari fan)

What about if the Williams has suspension problems at the next race? Should they have the race slowed to help them overcome their shortcomings?

What about Toyota if they are down on horsepower - should the rest of the teams have power limitations imposed?

Its all the same. I feel sorry for those at Indy - honestly I do - and I would be blowing chunks if I was them but don't loose perspective. Blame those who are responsible. All this talk that the track should have been changed "to make it a spectacle" is just bullshit. This is a sport - you can't change the rules on a "game by game" basis just to make it good to watch. That makes it entertainment but it does not make it sport.
Bring out the gimp
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:03 pm

Michelin should have accepted to run with a maximum speed limit on the cars. The Fia proposed that but Michelin said: "if a maximum speed limit will be applied to our cars, then it be for the other cars as well." Now that is a dumb thing to say.

On the other hand, if I had watched the race, I still would have asked for a refund. This is a direct result of FIA's overcomplicating everything, and asking the drivers to run all the race on the same set of tyres.

BOTH are guilty. Enough said.


Kay
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:10 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
Righto - then when Ferrari want to have the same apply for them when they get to the next race and their tires are shite - should they be allowed to ask that the rules are changed to help them? (By the way I am not a Ferrari fan)

If Bridgestone tires are in a similar position to those of Michelin, sure let them change.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
What about if the Williams has suspension problems at the next race? Should they have the race slowed to help them overcome their shortcomings?

I wasn't aware Williams made the suspension for a majority of F1 teams.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
What about Toyota if they are down on horsepower - should the rest of the teams have power limitations imposed?

I wasn't aware Toyota control the horsepower on a majority of F1 teams.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
Its all the same.

Its not the same - Michelin have a majority of F1 teams with their tyres and could have had them changed with no impact on the race. The FIA did not allow them to do so and as a result it was the greatest ever joke in F1 history. How anyone can try and defend the rules of F1 after that display of utter disgrace is beyond me.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
Blame those who are responsible.

Michelin had a solution - the FIA decided against the just outcome.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
This is a sport - you can't change the rules on a "game by game" basis just to make it good to watch.

They do it on a yearly basis with F1 so don't base you're argument on that.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 21):

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
What about if the Williams has suspension problems at the next race? Should they have the race slowed to help them overcome their shortcomings?

I wasn't aware Williams made the suspension for a majority of F1 teams.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
What about Toyota if they are down on horsepower - should the rest of the teams have power limitations imposed?

I wasn't aware Toyota control the horsepower on a majority of F1 teams.

Fair comment - though it misses the point I was trying to make (Not all that well I admit)

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 21):
Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
Its all the same.

Its not the same - Michelin have a majority of F1 teams with their tires and could have had them changed with no impact on the race. The FIA did not allow them to do so and as a result it was the greatest ever joke in F1 history. How anyone can try and defend the rules of F1 after that display of utter disgrace is beyond me.

It is - The impact on the race would have been huge. Was it a disgrace - yes. But you cannot expect the FIA to make allowances for teams who have been let down by their suppliers. That would be penalising the suppliers who had done their job. Frankly I doubt that even Michelin thought their proposals would be accepted. Most likely just to muddy the waters and disperse the blame for the fiasco that they knew would develop.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 21):

Michelin had a solution - the FIA decided against the just outcome.

Michelins "solution" was never going to be accepted. The rules are the rules. What is the point of a competition if its not on a level playing field. If it had been Bridgestone with 6 runners would the FIA have made an exception - no. Just because it destroyed the race and most likely F1 in the USA does not make it the wrong decision. I would have thought FIA and F1 more of a joke if they changed the rules for Michelins cock up.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 21):
Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 19):
This is a sport - you can't change the rules on a "game by game" basis just to make it good to watch.

They do it on a yearly basis with F1 so don't base you're argument on that.

Quite right. Yearly. Not on a race by race or hour by hour basis.

All the teams know the rules and can plan for them. All the
Bridgestone runners would have had to make changes that they had no time to plan for because Michelin cocked up. Is that fair?

By the way I am not a big FIA defender - it just seems unfair to me that they are being blamed when the problem is 100% Michelins fault. You can't argue with that surely.
Bring out the gimp
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6067
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting Kay (Reply 20):
Michelin should have accepted to run with a maximum speed limit on the cars. The Fia proposed that but Michelin said: "if a maximum speed limit will be applied to our cars, then it be for the other cars as well." Now that is a dumb thing to say.

Uh, I read that Michelin said that cars that wanted to race could do so, but would have to limit their speed in the troublesome corner to 200 kph (or something like that). They did everything they were able to, but in the end it was the FIA's decision not to allow a tyre-change or a chicane, that led to the 14 cards to withdraw.
 
VH-KCT*
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 4:01 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:39 pm

Quoting N317AS (Reply 3):
Crash in the first turn, Schumacher leads, by 20 seconds, Schumacher pits, Schumacher leads by 30 seconds after the pit because everyone else was thinking backwards. Oh there is something in Shumachers mirror, is it a William or McClaren, no it's just a fly along for the ride. Schumacher wins. Yawnfest.

I don't know what you've been watching this year, mate. 'Cos this was Schumy's first win of the season and only his 3rd podium.


ZKEYE, I understand where you're coming from, but I believe that the FIA has to take more than a role as an administrator of the rules. It's not as if accommodations have never been made, just look to the typhoon in Japan last year as a case in point.

Nobody would suggest that the cars took to qualifying in the middle of a typhoon because:

A safety would be compromised, and
B the spectacle would be reduced

So the FIA postponed qualifying until Sunday, does the US debacle not fit the same mould?

[Edited 2005-06-21 12:47:26]
I am The Stig
 
'Longreach'
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:36 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:41 pm

Formula One is a business which is viable BECAUSE of the fans.

Destroying F1 in the USA a minor thing? I think not ZKEYE... I think not.
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
It's not as if accommodations have never been made, just look to the typhoon at Japan last year as a case in point.

Nobody would suggest that the cars took to qualifying in the middle of a typhoon because:
A safety would be compromised, and
B the spectacle would be reduced
does the debacle not fit the same mould?

No it doesn't. Only because what you describe affects all teams - not just some as this shambles did. I am not defending the FIA - I am blaming Michelin. It was a shambles and hugely damaging for F1.
Bring out the gimp
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 22):
though it misses the point I was trying to make

No not really - Michelin is not an F1 team, whereas you were comparing them to being one with examples of things only the team can control.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 22):
you cannot expect the FIA to make allowances for teams who have been let down by their suppliers. That would be penalising the suppliers who had done their job. Frankly I doubt that even Michelin thought their proposals would be accepted. Most likely just to muddy the waters and disperse the blame for the fiasco that they knew would develop.

Well if you can justifiably explain why the FIA would not allow Michelin running teams to use the new batch of tyres sent by Michelin when it is within FIA's approval to do so. It is of no affect on the suppliers who have done theor job - none at all.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 22):
What is the point of a competition if its not on a level playing field. If it had been Bridgestone with 6 runners would the FIA have made an exception - no. Just because it destroyed the race and most likely F1 in the USA does not make it the wrong decision. I would have thought FIA and F1 more of a joke if they changed the rules for Michelins cock up.

A level playing field??? Competition??? Six cars is a level playing field and competition???? Tell that to the fans at Indy!

Now tell me this - by allowing the teams to compete with a new bunch of tyres is it anymore of an advantage for them or for the other teams? No - not unless they are SUPER tyres or something... quite simply Ferrari and the FIA have a case to answer for destroying this race and possibly the worldwide view of the sport.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 22):
Quite right. Yearly. Not on a race by race or hour by hour basis.

So your point still falls down in that the rules are changed on a regular basis anyway.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 22):
Bridgestone runners would have had to make changes that they had no time to plan for because Michelin cocked up. Is that fair?

What changes? They would not have changed a single thing that would have adversely affected them.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 22):
By the way I am not a big FIA defender - it just seems unfair to me that they are being blamed when the problem is 100% Michelins fault. You can't argue with that surely.

Excuse me - open your eyes... the FIA did not let them change to the new batch of tyres... Michelin was at fault for the tyres, but were they allowed to correct their mistake? No. Why? Because the FIA chose to dishonour the sport instead of allowing competition.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
VH-KCT*
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 4:01 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 26):
I am not defending the FIA - I am blaming Michelin. It was a shambles and hugely damaging for F1.

Okay, fair enough Michelin made a rather serious engineering mistake. But if they are to be blamed, shouldn't Schumacher be blamed for making 2004 a boring season? I'm not quite sure how to explain what I'm thinking here, perhaps you can understand what I'm trying to say.

By not bringing the FIA and a certain red team to task over their lack of accommodation, I think we excuse them from helping to create what you correctly refer to as a shambles and (something) hugely damaging for F1.

If Paul Stoddart is to be believed, I think Jordan are also partly to blame for muddying the waters. Had they not renegged on their deal and not raced, Minardi would have also not raced and Ferrari would have been exposed for what they seem to be...

[Edited 2005-06-21 12:59:24]
I am The Stig
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:57 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 27):
Well if you can justifiably explain why the FIA would not allow Michelin running teams to use the new batch of tires sent by Michelin when it is within FIA's approval to do so. It is of no affect on the suppliers who have done their job - none at all.

The FIA offered to let them - there are penalties though - it was Michelins decision not to use different tires. It does have an effect on the suppliers who have done their job - their teams may not win.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 27):
A level playing field??? Competition??? Six cars is a level playing field and competition???? Tell that to the fans at Indy!

The race was run under the rules as they existed at the time of competition - that is a level playing field. It would not have been a level playing field had changes to the track been made to suit the unfit Michelin tires.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 27):
quite simply Ferrari and the FIA have a case to answer for destroying this race and possibly the worldwide view of the sport.

It was not up to Ferrari. FIA enforced the rules.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 27):
So your point still falls down in that the rules are changed on a regular basis anyway.

No it does not. There is a difference between changing the rule out of season at changing the rules from one weekend to the next.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 27):
What changes? They would not have changed a single thing that would have adversely affected them.

Their cars had been set up to take turn 13 at high speed. If turn 13 had a chicane introduced it would have made it a slow (or at least slower) corner. That would entail a change in setup.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 27):
Michelin was at fault for the tires, but were they allowed to correct their mistake?

Sport is not about being allowed to correct your mistakes. If you make a mistake you have to live by it. If I miss a 2 foot putt to win on the 18th I wouldn't ask for a chance to correct my mistake - would you? This sport is about high technology and it get pushed to its limit, if one supplier pushes too hard and makes a complete balls of it why should they get another chance?
Bring out the gimp
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 28):

But it was not up to Ferrari. They did not have the power to make this decision. For what its worth I am a McLaren supporter (New Zealand team and all).
Bring out the gimp
 
VH-KCT*
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 4:01 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:09 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 30):
it was not up to Ferrari. They did not have the power to make this decision.

No they didn't have the power to change the rules, but they could have joined the other teams in searching for a solution. Perhaps not to allow the Michelin teams to race for points, but maybe to find a solution for the greater good of the sport - considering its future.

I agree with you completely that everything here has been done by the book, but what use will the book be if the sport goes bust?

Edit: can't spell

[Edited 2005-06-21 13:11:28]

[Edited 2005-06-21 13:12:23]
I am The Stig
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 29):
It does have an effect on the suppliers who have done their job - their teams may not win.

So thats your point? The Bridgestone teams might not win if Michelin are allowed to replace their tyres so we should not let them do that? Aren't you the one arguing about a level playing field? Its clear who you are arguing that case for! Certainly not michelin teams.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 29):
It would not have been a level playing field had changes to the track been made to suit the unfit Michelin tires.

What don't you understand about this - the fresh batch of tyres were fine. The FIA decided not to allow their use.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 29):
It was not up to Ferrari. FIA enforced the rules.

I suggest you read what happened - Ferrari was the only team unwilling to compromise on both the chicane and starting off the grid...

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 29):
No it does not. There is a difference between changing the rule out of season at changing the rules from one weekend to the next.

So they can't make an exception to the rule as they did in F1 Japan last year? Seems strange they did it in that instance last year and weren't willing to do it this time around. Even that proves your theory on rule exceptions wrong.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 29):
Their cars had been set up to take turn 13 at high speed. If turn 13 had a chicane introduced it would have made it a slow (or at least slower) corner. That would entail a change in setup.

Would not have been required if FIA let the new batch be used. But no - we can't have competition in F1!

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 29):
Sport is not about being allowed to correct your mistakes. If you make a mistake you have to live by it. If I miss a 2 foot putt to win on the 18th I wouldn't ask for a chance to correct my mistake - would you? This sport is about high technology and it get pushed to its limit, if one supplier pushes too hard and makes a complete balls of it why should they get another chance?

The teams did not make any mistake at all - it was an external parts manufacturer. Your golf example is out of context from the argument, just as you Williams and Toyota examples were... If a majority of players on tour used the same putters which were found to be faulty - would they be allowed to change them? Of course - because that is the equitable thing to do as was in the Michelin case.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:14 pm

Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 31):
should Schumacher be held responsible for making 2004 a boring season?

I understand where you are coming from (I think). 2004 was a shite season beacuse Ferrari were so far in advance of everyone else. Should the rules be changed because of that? - maybe. But not in the middle of the season. Anyway I think that might not be a great example because he has a level of skill, team management etc.. that is a step above everyone else. He is a freak in terms of F1.
Bring out the gimp
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:17 pm

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 23):
Uh, I read that Michelin said that cars that wanted to race could do so, but would have to limit their speed in the troublesome corner to 200 kph (or something like that). They did everything they were able to, but in the end it was the FIA's decision not to allow a tyre-change or a chicane, that led to the 14 cards to withdraw.

NOT what this FIA statement reads:
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html

..strange. I wonder whether this FIA statement is false. But if it is true, then the fault lies primarily on Michelin/Michelin teams who refused to run slower. How could they prefer retiring from running a bit slower??


Kay
 
zkeye
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 32):
So thats your point? The Bridgestone teams might not win if Michelin are allowed to replace their tyres so we should not let them do that? Aren't you the one arguing about a level playing field? Its clear who you are arguing that case for! Certainly not michelin teams.

Michelin couldn't provide the right tires. THATS my point. The rules dictate that if a team changes tires during a weekend there are penalties. They are the rules. I am not arguing for anyone. I just think its unfair that everyone but Michelin seems to be getting blamed.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 32):
It was not up to Ferrari. FIA enforced the rules.

I suggest you read what happened - Ferrari was the only team unwilling to compromise on both the chicane and starting off the grid...


It was not up to Ferrari. The FIA enforced the rules. What Ferrari said (or didn't say) makes no difference.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 32):
So they can't make an exception to the rule as they did in F1 Japan last year? Seems strange they did it in that instance last year and weren't willing to do it this time around. Even that proves your theory on rule exceptions wrong.

See relpy 26. Your argument is invalid.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 32):

Would not have been required if FIA let the new batch be used. But no - we can't have competition in F1!

See above. FIA offered to let them use new tyres - there would be penalties though.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 32):
If a majority of players on tour used the same putters which were found to be faulty - would they be allowed to change them? Of course -

No way in the world would they be allowed to change them!

By the way great result for M Campbell

[Edited 2005-06-21 13:24:58]
Bring out the gimp
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:37 pm

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 35):
Michelin couldn't provide the right tires. THATS my point. The rules dictate that if a team changes tires during a weekend there are penalties.

They could and did - but the FIA was too stubborn to allow a race.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 35):
It was not up to Ferrari. The FIA enforced the rules. What Ferrari said (or didn't say) makes no difference.

Ferrari could have allowed an outcome that would have seen a better race but instead opted to be stubborn, three times in fact.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 35):
See relpy 26. Your argument is invalid.

You ought to explain how its the case seeings that you're also arguing that there is never an exception to the rules. Just because it affects all teams equally - well what about the fans? Are they not the main reason behind all this? It seems you are being unfair to their interest which is my reasoning.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 35):
No way in the world would they be allowed to change them!

Yes they would, because Golfs governing bodies are not as stubborn or as money driven as the FIA.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
saslover
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:04 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:56 pm

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
F1 made complete fools of themselves at Indy. Here is a group of snotty assholes that refuse to compromise in any way, shape, or form to give the few U.S. fans the race they spent lots of money to see.

It was a colombian guy who payed about 2500 dollars to see it. He never wan't to see F1 anymore.
Pilot how soon can you land this plane. I can't tell. Yes you can tell me I am a doctor
 
User avatar
PipoA380
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 1:36 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
In the U.S. we have NASCAR. We have the IRL, which is gaining in popularity. We also have NHRA

Yeah, but you also have GWB!  duck 
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:23 pm

The FIA is worst. According to a statement of Peter Sauber the Michelin teams offered that, if they could change the tires, they would join the race but would do it without points in favor of the Bridgestone teams. This would have been a good compromise, but even this wasn't allowed by the FIA.
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 39):
According to a statement of Peter Sauber the Michelin teams offered that, if they could change the tires, they would join the race but would do it without points in favor of the Bridgestone teams. This would have been a good compromise, but even this wasn't allowed by the FIA.

Thats the way I understood it as well - It was a compromise made to keep the fans happy however I believe there all teams agreed to this except Ferrari and hence it did not occur and was not allowed by the FIA.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
I hope Tony George tells F1 to go f*ck themselves

Mr. Spineless himself? Oh yeah, let's RAPE CART, for the 'purity of oval racing' then 10 years later when I think everyone has forgotten, I'll go back to road courses....FU¢K YOU TONY!!

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
Let's return Indy to a mecca for oval track racing.

Only if the machine that scrapes up the pavement runs over Tony George first!!

Quoting Bohica (Thread starter):
In the U.S. we have NASCAR. We have the IRL, which is gaining in popularity. We also have NHRA. We don't need F1.

Quoting Dragon-wings,reply=5:
You forgot Champ Car World Series racing (CART).




Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 2):
IRL is just NASCAR with less dilluted talent and open wheels

That's ALMOST my line.. IRL is just NASCAR with open wheels

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 2):
We need F1... It is nice to see people turn right as well as left.

I'd rather have CART

Quoting Swisskloten (Reply 4):
Oh, and remember Tony George stated very firmly that the IRL was to be a purely oval series? Well, they now have a street course



Quoting Swisskloten (Reply 6):

Champ Car is a sad shadow of its former self. Since Tony "Hitler" George hates them so bitterly

Yeap when I found out about this last fall I almost shat myself.. TG better be glad I don't believe in violent solutions or guns, because if I did, I'd be saving for a .50 cal sniper rifle  Smile

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 7):
CART is gonna die soon... No money... No Tv time.. No Chance to make money

I WISH I could prove you wrong. To me, when it comes to sounds cars make there are two 'ultimates' for me. The former pre WSC/IMSA prototype cars (esp the Nissan GTP's) and Champ cars..

Nothing has the cool Turbine sound like they do and seeing the former go away was sad enough. I do not want to see the CHAMP cars go away, they are just too cool.
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senorcarnival
Posts: 1732
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:05 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting Planespotterx (Reply 13):
I wonder if its time for the USA to experience the WRC, or at least let them see what its all about, much more entertaining and exciting than F1 will ever be.

It was time from 1988 to 1990 and the Olympia Rally (based in mountain roads in the State of Washington) failed miserably. The SCCA series has a small niche market with some Rally has-beens and never-beens, and it can barely drum up interest outside of its interest group (other than coverage on the Speed Channel, the only coverage is the occasional mention in auto magazines and specialized publications.)
Oh no, she's getting impatient! Take a stab at it!
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:58 pm

Max Moseley was interviewed on the radio yesterday, and said that the chicane idea was a non-starter because it would have been a massive breach of the FIA's rules. He said that this in itself wasn't the issue, but that if a crash had occurred in the new chicane, put in place at the last minute without proper procedure as a compromise, then the FIA would have been completely and totally liable in legal terms.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:54 pm

Some of you need a little business experience to understand what happened.

Michelin pulled its tires as a business decision, rooted in safety questions. That is, a high-profile crash caused by their racing tires would have hurt sales of their street tires. And if your comprehension of the safety issue comes from watching NASCAR let me point out that they are taking Ralfie's turn at over 200 miles per hour and as much as FOUR lateral G's. There is nothing like it in NASCAR.

Bridgestone had no such problem, therefore, the Bridgestone mounted teams had NO EXCUSE for not racing. Therefore if they'd not raced, they would have been in breach of contract. It would have cost them more NOT to race than any minor ill will because they did race.

The Indianapolis Motor Speedway sells tickets to people who go to races for a variety of reasons, and those reasons are not the concern of the IMS. Some times you get a great race, sometimes it is a boring parade. You pay your money and you take your chances. There was a race. It wasn't much of a race, but in many respects it was easily as exciting as Monaco in any given year. A parade is a parade. If they give refunds it will be for one reason only - good will to increase ticket sales at future events.

Ferrari to blame? Hardly. All season long they've been the victims of regulations that were changed specifically to put them at a disadvantage and they are still racking up some points. Do you think we can make this a more exciting sport by rigging it in favor of Minadi?

And as to the FIA, well, they have always been a bunch of fascist bastard bureaucrats. Let's disembowel them and read our future in their entrails.

And the next time we compare F1 with NASCAR should be on a day when the candy-ass oval track guys cancel a race because it is raining. Or maybe when we put fake headlights and taillights on F1 cars to trick a bunch of mullet-head rednecks into believing that they can go down to their local dealer and buy a car just like the one that won today's race.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:00 pm

In the U.S. we have NASCAR. We have the IRL, which is gaining in popularity. We also have NHRA. We don't need F1.


youre comparing an Cessna with an A380..... the F-1 go's much more faster, and therefore safety is rule number 1.... or would you like to see the same what happened with ayton senna?

seems like you are talking about something you hardly have any info about
 
slider
Posts: 6869
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:09 pm

The racing community today in general reminds me of the way the airlines used to be run in that they're run by ego-driven megalomaniacal personalities who care more for politics, their own feather-bedding and their own interests more than they do the sport itself.

Open wheel racing in general is being ruined--RUINED I SAY--on both sides of he pond by people who have no clue. Tony George is certainly a big contributor to this, and F1 has had a problem like this catastrophe brewing for some time.

No one should be surprised. But as long as the George family owns that little plot of land on the corner of 16th and Georgetown, nothing will change.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 46):
But as long as the George family owns that little plot of land on the corner of 16th and Georgetown, nothing will change.

Maybe we ought to make him an 'offer' he can't refuse eh?
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KCmike
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:13 am

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:57 pm

I just got back in from Indianapolis!

What a display of emotions from all of the crowd. I met people who have traveled all the way from Asia, Europe, South America for this race. I dont think a refund is going to happen. As bad as it was, There still was a race people, maybe only 6 cars, but there still was a race.

I honeslt didnt know what was going on for a few minutes, because after the pace lap all 14 michellins went into the pits. I was thinking just a pre race checkup. but then all of a sudden there go the Ferraris, Jordan, and Minardi. I didnt know what was happening when it finally struck me that the only cars driving were Bridgestone.

There is no way in hell the course is going to be change on race day. Thats just insane and wont happen and the teams shouldve been professional enough to know this. FIA shouldve let them change tires. Shame on them for ruining my weeked!!!
Cleared for the option...
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12724
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: F1, Don't Come Back

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:58 pm

I enjoy F-1, NASCAR, IRL, CART, and even some WRC. Each form of racing has it's fans, good drivers and different tracks. There is something exciting in any race of cars going side by side into a turn at 120mph/200kph and someone has to move wether it be in NASCAR or an open wheel car.
What happened at the USGP F-1 race at Indy really sucked. There will be hearings by the FIA/F1 organizations and appeals as to what happened at Indy. I expect them to return next year, perhaps with a tested tweak to the questionable corner. It is too bad thay couldn't have found a way for all teams to participate with some aero or technical tweak to slow them down in that turn, but without sufficient testing, it could have made more problems. Perhaps that turn it is too fast for any F1 car and even those cars with Bridgestone/Firestone tires may have had failures if full race conditions. More importantly, if all the cars raced, the lives of drivers would have been put into jepordy, faced USA liability lawsuits, and if a major driver like Alanso or M. Schumaker crippled or killed, it would have ruined F-1 for a while, hurt (as noted above) Michelin tire sales and so on.

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