diamond
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Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:05 am

Flap over remark about liberals' response to 9/11 attacks
Thursday, June 23, 2005; Posted: 1:34 p.m. EDT (17:34 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- White House adviser Karl Rove should either apologize or resign for saying liberals responded to the September 11 terrorist strikes by wanting to "prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers," Democrats said Thursday.

Adding to the rancor, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, suggested that Republican charges that Democrats were undermining the war on terror with their criticism of administration policies amounted to an act of desperation.

"The president wanted to go to Iraq in the worst possible way and he did," Pelosi said. "The president is on the ropes."

Bush's chief political adviser, Rove said in a speech Wednesday that "liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." Conservatives, he told the New York state Conservative Party just a few miles north of Ground Zero, "saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war."

Rove said the Democratic Party made the mistake of calling for "moderation and restraint" after the terrorist attacks.

Democrats respond
Democrats were quick to respond -- and in growing numbers.

"Karl Rove should immediately and fully apologize for his remarks or he should resign," Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said in a statement. "I hope the president will join me in repudiating these remarks."

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean called on Bush to "show some leadership and unequivocally repudiate Rove's divisive and damaging political rhetoric."

The White House defended Rove's remarks and accused Democrats of engaging in partisan attacks. Rove, said spokesman Scott McClellan, "was talking about the different philosophies and our different approaches when it comes to winning the war on terrorism."

[More here ...]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/23/rove.speech.ap/index.html
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Greyhound
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:08 am

Even though I lean conservative, thank God I don't go by what that loony says. I think an apology is the least he could do.

I did think this was funny though:

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean called on Bush to "show some leadership and unequivocally repudiate Rove's divisive and damaging political rhetoric."
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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
Karl Rove should immediately and fully apologize for his remarks or he should resign," Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said in a statement.

Harry, have you met Howard Dean? Shut the hell up.

"Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean called on Bush to "show some leadership and unequivocally repudiate Rove's divisive and damaging political rhetoric.""

You have GOT to be kidding me. Howard Dean's picture must be in the dictionary next to the definition of "hypocrite".

[Edited 2005-06-23 20:11:01]
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diamond
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 1):
I did think this was funny though:

True .. it is very hard to imagine Dean in the role of a bridge-building diplomat!!  Smile Smile

And that is coming from someone who is leaning to the very progressive side.
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dvk
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:29 am

But come on, Maverick. Rove's remarks are lies, and he needs to retract them and apologize just as much, or more, than Dick Durbin did for his gulag comments. For that fat toad mouthpiece McClellan to give the pat "partisan" rebuttal is a perfect example of how the Bush administration absolutely refuses to set a cooperative tone in ANY area. They feel they can make the most outrageously partisan accusations, tell senators to go "fuck" themselves, tell the terrorists to "bring it on", and make any other incendiary remark their small minds can think of with impunity. If a Democrat says anything, however, it's treason.

Yeah, Dean goes over the top sometimes, but he's the DNC chairman, NOT one of the closest advisors to the President. That is a big difference. If the White House can't learn to play well with others, it's absolutely hopeless the mess in Congress will ever improve. Rove is a bastard from the word go. A smart bastard, but a bastard nevertheless, and he bears much of the behind the scenes blame for the inexcusable mess that Washington is right now.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:24 am

Democrats were quick to respond -- and in growing numbers.

Of course they did - not because they're actually upset, but because they're desperately grasping at ANYTHING that will enable them to deflect attention from Senator Durbin's week of bad press.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 4):
But come on, Maverick. Rove's remarks are lies

Fine, so now the score of asinine remarks directed towards the opposite party is Democrats 389, Republicans 1.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Harry, have you met Howard Dean? Shut the hell up.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Fine, so now the score of asinine remarks directed towards the opposite party is Democrats 389, Republicans 1.

Yeah, you keep believing that Maverick...you keep right on believing that.  Yeah sure

If you really can't see the venom coming from that right as well as the left, you truly are lost.

This little bit did make me laugh though...

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean called on Bush to "show some leadership and unequivocally repudiate Rove's divisive and damaging political rhetoric."

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KFLLCFII
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:57 am

The question remains: If Rove apologizes, will the Democrats accept his apology like the Republicans did of Durbin the first time, or will they reject his apology like they did of Lott repeatedly? I'd like to believe the Democratic Party could take the high road, but I just don't see this happening. Not with MoveOn.org and Michael Moore holding the leash.
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dvk
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:15 am

Yeah, KFLLCFII, just like the Republicans and Swift Boat Veterans for Lies, et al, have taken the high road. Give us a break. "Michael Moore holding the leash"? Just what are YOU smoking?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Fine, so now the score of asinine remarks directed towards the opposite party is Democrats 389, Republicans 1.

Hyperbole does not become you, Maverick.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Of course they did - not because they're actually upset, but because they're desperately grasping at ANYTHING that will enable them to deflect attention from Senator Durbin's week of bad press

If you can't see that this tit for tat has reached the level of insanity on BOTH sides, then you have blinders on.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 7):
If you really can't see the venom coming from that right

Such as...? There's plenty of venom but nothing like the daily Dean attacks of "Republicans/conservatives are all **fill in blank with negative generalization**".

"This little bit did make me laugh though..."

Does anybody REALLY believe the "I didn't like your comment so I'm going to say it made me laugh" standard airliners.net retort anymore? Nothing directed at you specifically but I see it all the time.

[Edited 2005-06-23 22:48:30]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Braniff727
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:58 am

Personally I love how Democrats are outraged at the fact that a Republican made fun of them. That's an outrage! But when a Democrat slanders his country and the men and women who serve it while on the Senate floor, on the record, that's passion.

So make a comment about the other party wanting to win the war on terrorism by having a bake sale is cause for resignation in shame, but slandering your country on the Senate floor is not.

Hmmm... I better not say anymore because my liberal city council may decide that they want to build a mall where my home is, and there's nothing I can do about it!
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jaysit
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Does anybody REALLY believe the "I didn't like your comment so I'm going to say it made me laugh" standard airliners.net retort anymore?

Outrageous comments that show that the writer has his head up his arse are worthy of howls of laughter.

I guess having one's head up one's arse is one way of having blinders on. Saves on the cost of blinders too.

But seriously, what does one expect from Karl Rove? After all this is the man responsible for his boss' Bob Jones University appearance, the McCain "black child out of wedlock" rumor, and the entire gay marriage political football to court evangelical right wingers.

If Nancy Pelosi expected a higher standard from Rove, she needs to put down the peace pipe and start strategizing on how to defeat this vile mobster of American politics.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 9):
just like the Republicans and Swift Boat Veterans for Lies, et al, have taken the high road

Just comparing apples to apples, brother: If the Republicans can accept Durbin's apology, I should hope the Democrats can accept Rove's. Yes, I'm hoping a good thing for your party, and I know it doesn't happen too often on A.net when a member of one party wishes good things for the other. But I can't force you to believe that; you'll either believe me or you won't.

Regarding Michael Moore, I know the Republicans have their Jerry Falwells and Christian Coalition too, and I'm not proud of these extremists either. However, I also don't deny they have a significant pull on the Republican Party. In the same light, if the Democratic Party tends to go the way of Michael Moore and MoveOn.org, so be it; If they have such a strong pull, then apparently this is the path that the Democratic Party wishes to proceed. The same holds true for the Republican Party's Jerry Falwell and the Christian Coalition. You don't have to accept the extremists, but it's good to at least acknowledge who is having the greatest effect on your party, so you'll understand why your party does and says the things it does.  Smile


Regards,

Bryan
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EA CO AS
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:30 am

There's a key difference between what Rove said and what Durbin said - Durbin's remarks openly insulted people who actively defend our country, while Rove merely poked fun at political figures and their reaction to 9/11.

Was it in bad taste? That's not for me to decide - although I personally found Rove's comments to be funny. But don't think for a moment that this comes even REMOTELY close to Senator Durbin's remarks.

[Edited 2005-06-23 23:31:37]
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:52 am

For a brief period immediately after 9/11 we were all AMERICANS first and foremost.

Fast forward a couple of years and we are in one of the most divisive period in American history.

Both parties are guilty of this divisiveness and in this area, the terrorists seem to have won.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
Outrageous comments that show that the writer has his head up his arse are worthy of howls of laughter.

Are you going to try to back that up or just follow up with the same standard airliners.net nonsense? I bet I can guess which you'll choose.

I will gladly recant my views and admit I'm wrong if anyone can show me that this group of Democrats/liberals doesn't take the absolute prize for sheer number of "Republicans/conservatives are all brown shirts/Nazis/Greedy/lazy/white/Christian/people who've never worked a day in their life/dishonest" statements. But with Kerry and Dean on your side, that will be near impossible.

[Edited 2005-06-24 00:33:03]
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Blackbird1331
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:46 am

Well, no one apologized to Democratic voters for being immoral during the last presidential election. Considering the performance of this present administration, I would not accept any apology they extend.
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diamond
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
Was it in bad taste? That's not for me to decide - although I personally found Rove's comments to be funny. But don't think for a moment that this comes even REMOTELY close to Senator Durbin's remarks.

Sure, you will avoid judging Rove because it's not for you to decide ... and then immediately turn and around and proceed with juding Durbin?

Here's a challenge for you EA CO AS ... surprise us one day.
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L-188
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
White House adviser Karl Rove should either apologize or resign for saying liberals responded to the September 11 terrorist strikes by wanting to "prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers,"

Well they had to make something up to deflect attention from Durbin and Dean.

Both of whom said something a hell of a lot worse.

Rove needs to tell the democrats to pound sand.
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diamond
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 19):
make something up

What exactly was "made up" ?
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ltbewr
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:10 am

To me, both parties Congress & Senate members, key party leaders themselves and top state leaders, should each have closed door, no press allowed conferences and there leaders should read all the riot act about their recent disgusting beheavor and comments.
Calling people 'Nazis' or comparing Gitmo to a gulag, or calling liberals = to traitors and soft on terror, or just cutting off critizism is wrong no matter who says it. One can argue and knock the oppsition party and their views in far more civil ways that will be constructive, not destructive; showing concern, not contempt and consensus and balance and not walling off and sticking to distant corners. We need to worry more about preventing another 9/11, not using 9/11 as a crugle against the opposition or going too far against personal freedoms.
The current beheavor of leading politicans to each other is turning off many Americans from political concerns and politicans. This isn't good for anyone, as important issues are being ignored to the great hurt of many.
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean called on Bush to "show some leadership and unequivocally repudiate Rove's divisive and damaging political rhetoric."

BIGGG Pot, BIGGG Kettle, VERRRRY Black, Next?

Idiot!

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
If Nancy Pelosi expected a higher standard from Rove, she needs to put down the peace pipe and start strategizing on how to defeat this vile mobster of American politics.

And go look in the mirror and stiffle her own loud mouthed rhetoric . . . peas in a pod . . . and take Howard Dean with her.

More name calling and sniveling - sounds like a bad night on A-Net.

Get over it. Rove runs his mouth; Dean runs his mouth; Pelosi never, ever shuts up; SNAFU in DC . . .
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TedTAce
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
More name calling and sniveling - sounds like a bad night on A-Net.

More like par for the course to me..save a certain picture that is... no longer available.
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dvk
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:59 am

Things will not improve as long as Bush is President. He and his cronies, Cheney and Rove foremost, have set the standard for being bastards who are unwilling to work with anybody who doesn't see eye-to-eye with them. They don't stop there. They viciously belittle anyone who dares to contradict them. No other administration in my lifetime has behaved as abominably and with such malevolence toward anyone who doesn't follow them blindly.

EA CO AS and Maverick, why don't you show where the Bush administration has EVER truly attempted to work in a bipartisan manner over the past four years? You can't! The brief period of unity after 9/11 doesn't count, because Bush and company rapidly squandered that unity on a global basis.

Until we have an administration that can comport itself with some level of dignity and civility, there is no hope for Congress. W bears the ultimate blame for this debacle, because HE is the one who set the tone.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Such as...? There's plenty of venom but nothing like the daily Dean attacks of "Republicans/conservatives are all **fill in blank with negative generalization**".

And the demonization of the word "liberal". Calling Democrats soft on terror, flip-flopper, etc. Don't be a fool, both parties generalize each other all the time. They only care about winning elections, not the well being of yourself, myself, or any US citizen.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Does anybody REALLY believe the "I didn't like your comment so I'm going to say it made me laugh" standard airliners.net retort anymore? Nothing directed at you specifically but I see it all the time.

I was laughing, actually, at the fact that Dean was calling for Rove to apoligize when he is guilty of the same thing.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
Outrageous comments that show that the writer has his head up his arse are worthy of howls of laughter.

Shut your trap, as I already stated, I was laughing at the fact that Dean was a hypocrite. If you would open your eyes and stop seeing everything with your slant like M11 here does, you'd realize I think Dean and Rove are both pretty pathetic.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 15):
Fast forward a couple of years and we are in one of the most divisive period in American history.

You flunked history class boy. How can I tell? You clearly forgot the Civil War! I imagine when Americans start shooting at each other under the command of organized military forces, the country is pretty damn divided!

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 15):
For a brief period immediately after 9/11 we were all AMERICANS first and foremost.

And thanks to the Dems and Reps, it was all pissed away...we can thank Dean, Rove, Cheney, Pelosi, morons like Bill O'Riley, Al Frankken, Ann Coulter, Micheal Moore...this list goes on.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 15):
Both parties are guilty of this divisiveness and in this area, the terrorists seem to have won.

The two biggest terrorist threats to the US aren't Al-Qaida or Hezbollah, but the Democrats and Republicans who care more about a loud-mouth ass and a smelly old elephant than about the good 'ole US of A.

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ANCFlyer
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Dvk (Reply 24):
EA CO AS and Maverick, why don't you show where the Bush administration has EVER truly attempted to work in a bipartisan manner over the past four years? You can't

Dvk, I hate to toss out this old cliche, cause I KNOW it'll draw incoming from all quarters, but the issue of Partisan Politics isn't a BUSH problem. It was also a Clinton problem. As TedT points out, this ultra-partisan politicial environment has been plaguing the Sewer on the Potomac for a decade.

So, the same challenge goes out to you as you tossed to Maverick and EA CO AS . . . and go back ten years or so.

Edit: Typo

[Edited 2005-06-24 05:34:21]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting Dvk (Reply 24):
why don't you show where the Bush administration has EVER truly attempted to work in a bipartisan manner over the past four years?

No, because that's not what this thread is about.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 25):
Don't be a fool, both parties generalize each other all the time.

Of course they do, but most of it has been coming from the Democrat camp in the last year.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Of course they do, but most of it has been coming from the Democrat camp in the last year.

Clue in, the Democrats are the party out of power. What do you think the Republicans were up to when Clinton was in office.  Yeah sure

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flybyguy
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:27 pm

A call to resign? Democrats can barely hold their seats in Congress so I think they have a little more to worry about then back handed statements from Satan incarnate.

Rove will not resign and will not apologize... the Republicans are at the top of their game, they could say anything and do anything and only gain Congressional seats with each Congressional election, thanks to the exodus of families from Blue states seeking lower costs of living in the Red states.

The Democratic Party, by the time the Republicans are done with it, will be less of a formidable opponent even to the Third parties.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
KC135R
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Of course they did - not because they're actually upset, but because they're desperately grasping at ANYTHING that will enable them to deflect attention from Senator Durbin's week of bad press.

Durbin's comments were thoughtless and careless to some extent, but this one guy's comments are not that big of a deal....You want to talk about deflecting attention, here's one for you: The Bush administration is desperate to divert attention from the disaster that is Iraq. So, they are grasping at Durbin's comments, something that should have been in the news for about 5 minutes, to try and draw attention away. Yesterday, on the way home from work, I flipped through the conservative stations to hear what they were talking about - though I had sworn off them about 3 months ago - anyway Glenn Beck, Tony Snow, and that nutcase Michael Savage were all talking about Durbin's remarks, several days later and after he apologized. I understand some disgust with what he said, but he is one guy, from one state, who said one stupid thing - get over it and let's try to, oh I don't know - stop the insurgency in Iraq so my fellow American Servicemen stop coming home in boxes - I am sick and tired of this petty bickering, from both sides, while people are dying. Shut up, get over it, fix your stinking mistakes in Iraq. But no, we're focused on some missing girl in Aruba, name calling of your opposition, Karl Rove yapping about post 9/11 mentality (and making it partisan, when for a while after 9/11 it was anything but), and comments made last week in poor taste which have since been apologized for. Yeah, this country really needs to get its crap together.  banghead 

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
Durbin's remarks openly insulted people who actively defend our country

No they did not. I serve and I was not offended, unless it is all made up - but it seems to be credible since he was reading directly from an FBI report. If American Military people are breaking international laws, then they don't deserve your concern or respect. We all know damn good and well what is and is not legal in the military - so if someone is breaking those rules, they deserve whatever harsh words and punishment they get. Besides, many of the people doing this stuff are not military people anyway, they are contractors. He is reading a report from an FBI agent that details abuse. If we are abusing prisoners than we are in the wrong. Even if they are terrorists, we are better than countries that abuse - at least we should be.

Furthermore, we have held people there for several years without charging them, some were let go with ZERO charges after being held for years. If someone did that to our people we would be in an uproar. We are the United States of America for God's sake - we should be above this. If these people are such "bad people" as Cheney said, and I suspect most of them are, then try them and convict them. Don't leave them there to rot with no charges against them. And BTW Duncan Hunter - you idiot - who cares if they get "orange glazed chicken, fresh fruit grupe, steamed peas and mushrooms, rice pilaf." IF we are abusing people, or breaking international law (that we hold other countries to, BTW), than it does not make it better because they get fruit grupe, whatever that is. The nerve of some people in government is amazing these days.
 
dvk
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:59 pm

Maverick, that's an incredibly weak response. Bush's absolute unwillingness to even attempt to work with anyone who doesn't agree with him 100% is ultimately the reason this thread even exists. Also, for every statement of petty partisan swill that you try to point out from a Democrat, I can respond with an equally offensive remark made by W, Cheney, Rove, Ashcroft, Frist, Lott, Cornyn, DeLay, Hastert, David Dreier, etc.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Dvk, I hate to toss out this old cliche, cause I KNOW it'll draw incoming from all quarters, but the issue of Partisan Politics isn't a BUSH problem. It was also a Clinton problem. As TedT points out, this ultra-partisan politicial environment has been plaguing the Sewer on the Potomac for a decade.

You're right ANC. It started with the Moral Majority demonizing anyone who's not a straight Evangelical Christian, multiplied with the Republican anger over Daddy Bush's loss to Clinton, increased by another order of magnitude with Gingrich's retaliatory revolution, escalated further with Ken Starr's witch hunt (Oh I know, Clinton was impeached because he LIED, not because Ken Starr was determined to entrap him with unjustifiable questions that were irrelevant to the Whitewater investigation), and then we get to W. I'm well aware of the escalation of petty partisanship since the late 1980's.

The big difference, ANC, is that neither Daddy Bush nor Clinton spent their entire Presidencies inciting and fueling this internal warfare. W, Rove, Cheney, Ashcroft, etc., have not even tried to improve the situation. They've deliberately made it worse. There is a huge difference between Clinton and Bush. Clinton DID try to work with Congress. Want an easy, if failed example? Don't ask, don't tell. It's an utter failure as policy, and it wasn't what Clinton wanted, but he enacted it because he thought it would be better than its precedent, and he knew it was what he could get from Congress at the time. At least Clinton was willing to attempt bipartisan compromise.

Things are much worse now, though, and it is directly because of W himself. The USA is more polarized now than at any point in any of our lifetimes, and W hasn't done ONE thing to try to bring us closer together. Rove's statements and unqualified defense by the White House are just additional proof of what has been obvious from the start. Bush doesn't give a shit about anything other than his own unconditional, unqualified objectives.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:04 pm

Am I the only one here who agrees with what Rove said? Sadly, there have been many liberals in this country with a similiar outlook to the one Rove is mocking.

It is up to the Democrats to prove that they are indeed tough on fighting terror. As long as the Democrats are home to that estimated 10-15% of their party that is very vocal in their opposition to Bush's war on terror policies, it will be up to Democrats to prove that they are tough on foreign policy. And if they don't, they will likely continue to lose seats as long as foreign policy issues are at the forefront.

That is one of the reasons I am a big fan of my senator, Chuck Schumer, a democrat who is a liberal on social issues but a hawk on foreign policy.

I don't want to rock the boat here....But Rove's comments can also be applied to a good share of Europe, who truly believe that there is moral equivalency between a suicide bomber and a democracy fighting terror. Diplomacy and visits to the White House will not stop terrorism--Killing terrorists and expanding civic society/constitutional liberalism along with democracy will stop terrorism.

[Edited 2005-06-24 07:09:24]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting Dvk (Reply 31):
for every statement of petty partisan swill that you try to point out from a Democrat, I can respond with an equally offensive remark made by W, Cheney, Rove, Ashcroft, Frist, Lott, Cornyn, DeLay, Hastert, David Dreier, etc

Go for it. That's what I asked for.
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KC135R
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 29):
The Democratic Party, by the time the Republicans are done with it, will be less of a formidable opponent even to the Third parties.

Which is sad because they should be able to kill the Republicans in elections since the Republicans have, for the most part, fallen out of favor with the majority of the population. The only reason Bush got reelected is because his opponent was worse in many ways. He should have been one of the easiest Presidents ever to beat. But the DNC is a sad, sad party right now and will never beat out the Republicans unless they get their crap together.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 31):

You make some interesting points. You know what irks me, kind of on the line of what you are saying? Clinton has often been critisized for "following the polls" and leading by opinion. Bush has often been praised, by the same types, for "sticking to his values despite the polls". But you know what? Our elected officials are there to do the WILL OF THE FREAKING PEOPLE - not the will of their party. So if Clinton abandoned his "values" to accommodate the will of the people, I call that good leadership. Bush, on the other hand, I call STUBBORN!! Even his dad warned him about what a mess Iraq could become, and you know what he supposedly said?? "I answer to a higher father"!!! Yeah, I am sure God cares if we overthrow Saddam Hussein.  sarcastic 
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:26 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 34):
Our elected officials are there to do the WILL OF THE FREAKING PEOPLE - not the will of their party. So if Clinton abandoned his "values" to accommodate the will of the people, I call that good leadership.

The are many obvious problems with polls: The legitimacy of parties administering them, the demographic of the sample, the total number questioned, the manner in which the questions are framed, the accuracy of the count, etc., etc., etc. The list goes on. If every single poll was designed to create/change official policy, then they should be administered in the same manner as elections are completed, since they would essentially hold the same weight as if it was an elected official making the same decisions. But this idea isn't even remotely practical to be of any use, so I stand firm on the idea that there is only one true nationwide public opinion-based poll: the United States Presidential Election.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:40 pm

Polls are like assholes . . . there are many of them and they all stink!

Depending on which side of the fence your political loyalties lie, will depend on the poll you read - and subsequently respond to . . .

Take them ALL with a grain of salt.

As KFLL says . . . one true poll, the election of the President. Clearly, that poll spoke volumes on Nov 2. Some folk will just have to live with that. . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KC135R
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 35):

I see your points, but I am not speaking in absolutes it was more of a "doing the will of the people" in a general sense. The majority of the population is not always right, so I am not advocating that every politician follow every poll all the time. What I am saying is, and Bush specifically could learn to do this, politicians need to pay attention to the pulse of their constituents more instead of focusing on partisan issues all the time.
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:50 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 37):
What I am saying is, and Bush specifically could learn to do this, politicians need to pay attention to the pulse of their constituents more instead of focusing on partisan issues all the time.

 goldmedal   yes 

When that occurs there will be NHL in Hades (or anywhere  biggrin  ).

Very few politicians 'get it". Most are browbeaten by their parties . . . it's a visiou circle. One cannot get things done for their constituency without some backing from the party. One can't get the backing from the party if they don't at least to some degree tow that party line. When the party line is towed, then the politics become partisan and nothing gets done for the constituency. In order to get things done for the constituency, one must have the backing of the party . . . etc.

Term limits - term limits - term limits.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:59 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 37):
What I am saying is, and Bush specifically could learn to do this, politicians need to pay attention to the pulse of their constituents more instead of focusing on partisan issues all the time.

Agreed. However this doesn't just apply to the President; This also applies across the House, and especially across the Senate at the moment. Both sides of the party line apparently haven't gotten all of their grievances out on the table yet, and I seriously doubt they ever will. Unless of course, another 9/11 happens, and we'll have another three weeks of mutually-fake ass-kissing.
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 15):
For a brief period immediately after 9/11 we were all AMERICANS first and foremost.

Fast forward a couple of years and we are in one of the most divisive period in American history.

Both parties are guilty of this divisiveness and in this area, the terrorists seem to have won

The media has been saying that for quite some time and it is quite untrue, I remember Dick Gephart saying that for every 100 point drop in the Dow Jones, was another vote for a Democrat to be the next President, so much for unity.
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KC135R
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
it's a visiou circle. One cannot get things done for their constituency without some backing from the party. One can't get the backing from the party if they don't at least to some degree tow that party line.

So true...other than term limits of some type, which could be helpful, I wish we also had at least one more major party - or no parties at all for that matter. Too bad politicians could not be voted in on their own individual merits, instead of just getting votes from uninformed people who vote only for the D or the R. But I guess that will never happen.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 39):
However this doesn't just apply to the President; This also applies across the House, and especially across the Senate at the moment.

Agreed, it's not just Bush. Politician have become increasingly partisan, on both sides of the aisle, in the past few years. I point out Bush specifically because he does seem exceptionally oblivious, or unconcerned, with what people want - it's one of the things that made me lose confidence in him as a leader. He has his ideas and he goes with it, and I guess there is something to be said for that - but - crazy me - I keep thinking back to "the will of the people". Anyway you are right - all politicians need to start working together for the good of the country and their constituents. But with career politicians playing high stakes, big money politics, I don't expect to see much concern for the people. Oh sure, there will be some fake concern prior to an election - but once reelected, it wears off quickly.
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:58 am

Remember, it's OK to slander Jews and minimalize the Holocaust, you just can't speak about the spineless, appeasement-minded Democrats.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 18):
Sure, you will avoid judging Rove because it's not for you to decide ... and then immediately turn and around and proceed with juding Durbin?

Fine. I've decided what Rove said was funny - since it wasn't a jab aimed at the armed forces, but mere politicians - and what Durbin said was hurtful. Deal with it.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 18):
Here's a challenge for you EA CO AS ... surprise us one day.

Here's a challenge back to you - try to have an original thought for once. All you seem able to do is parrot whatever those who dislike the current administration have to say.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 24):
EA CO AS and Maverick, why don't you show where the Bush administration has EVER truly attempted to work in a bipartisan manner over the past four years? You can't! The brief period of unity after 9/11 doesn't count, because Bush and company rapidly squandered that unity on a global basis.

It's poor legislation, but "No Child Left Behind," for one. Sponsored by "I'm ok to drive - swear!" Senator Ted Kennedy himself. Let's also look at each budget - bipartisan efforts all the way. I'm sure there are other things to point out but I don't have the time.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 30):
I flipped through the conservative stations to hear what they were talking about - though I had sworn off them about 3 months ago - anyway Glenn Beck, Tony Snow, and that nutcase Michael Savage were all talking about Durbin's remarks, several days later and after he apologized.

Savage? Nutcase is right, even coming from a conservative like me. He's the equivalent to that Air America windbag Randi Rhodes.

But the thing to keep in mind is that Durbin never really apologized. He said he was sorry if some people were offended, which is no different than saying, "I'm sorry if you have a problem with (insert offense-creating phenomenon here)." That's not an apology - that's saying you stand by what you said, and you feel others shouldn't be offended by it, but you'll do your best to SOUND like you give a shit.

Quoting KC135R (Reply 30):
it seems to be credible since he was reading directly from an FBI report.

Let's talk about context, though. The FBI report talked about TEMPORARY conditions prisoners were observed in that were for the sake of interrogation - NOT constant housing, which is what Durbin implied was the case. His remarks were intended to make people think that 24/7, these prisoners were being treated poorly and suffering from adverse conditions.

This isn't the case. If you take the time to read ALL of Senator Durbin's commentary from the report, you'll see that it clearly refers to the conditions of interrogation rooms only, not the living quarters of the prisoners.

Of course it made for great sound bites for him making it out like we were running Auschwitz South....  sarcastic 

But again, it's nowhere NEAR what Rove said. He was making a joke about the prevailing ideology of the Democratic leadership - poking fun of politicians. That's something Dems do EVERY SINGLE DAY and are NEVER called on the carpet for. EVER. And if Republicans take offense, we're immediately labeled as "Lacking humor," or "Thin-skinned."

But no, a big bad mean Republican does it and suddenly "Heads must roll!" ? Please.

The Dems are acting all bent outta shape because it's the ONLY thing they feel they can get traction with right now, especially with their own DNC Chair making an ass of himself every time a microphone comes within ten feet of him.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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slider
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):
The Dems are acting all bent outta shape because it's the ONLY thing they feel they can get traction with right now, especially with their own DNC Chair making an ass of himself every time a microphone comes within ten feet of him.

True, because Lord knows we haven't worked an honest day in our lives, right?  Smile

YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH Howard!!!!!!

ROFLMAO! The sad thing is that the Republicans are mucking things up so badly that it's even more pathetic to see the Democrats flailing like they are.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:57 am

[quote=Boeing4ever,reply=25][You flunked history class boy. How can I tell? You clearly forgot the Civil War!/quote]

And you flunked English. I said "one of the most divisive periods", not THE MOST DIVISIVE.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
The sad thing is that the Republicans are mucking things up so badly that it's even more pathetic to see the Democrats flailing like they are.

True. C'mon Republican party, do we REALLY need an amendment banning flag burning or desecration? Honestly?

I'd never want to see someone burning a U.S. flag, but I support their right to do it if they want.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
Sadly, there have been many liberals in this country with a similiar outlook to the one Rove is mocking.

There are? But you and you right wing buddies on here keep saying stuff like the Dems are irrelevant:

"The Dems are acting all bent outta shape because it's the ONLY thing they feel they can get traction with right now"

"The Democratic Party, by the time the Republicans are done with it, will be less of a formidable opponent even to the Third parties."

"the Republicans are at the top of their game, they could say anything and do anything and only gain Congressional seats with each Congressional election, thanks to the exodus of families from Blue states seeking lower costs of living in the Red states"

So are you guys crushing us? Or are you still so afraid that you support asinine comments like what Rove spewed? I mean, seriously if there are still so many "liberals" out there, how'd you win the election?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
It is up to the Democrats to prove that they are indeed tough on fighting terror.

Bullshit. The Repubs and their right wing control all 3 branches, and the majority of governerships. YOUR party is in power, it is up to YOUR party to prove that THEY are not incompetent with fighting terror. So far, they are doing a fucking awful job imho, and FINALLY people are starting to notice.

I don't consider engaging this country in a bullshit war with a country that was not a threat to us "tough on terror".

We still don't have bin Laden.

B
 
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 47):
So far, they are doing a fucking awful job imho

A "fucking awful job" would be based numerous terrorist attacks on our homeland since 9/11, or a complete lack of ANY disruption of terror cell activity.

But since that's not the case, so far your humble opinion seems like it's worth squat since it's obviously not results-oriented.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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MaverickM11
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RE: Democrats: Rove Should Apologize Or Resign

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 47):
Or are you still so afraid that you support asinine comments like what Rove spewed?

There is nothing to fear in the Democratic party right now; I WISH there was something to fear because that would keep the Republicans in check. But no, now we basically have a case of crazy gimp sheep trying to herd foxes.

I also don't support what Rove said, I just find it OBSCENELY HYPOCRITICAL that after Dean gets done saying Republicans are 'nothing but white Christians that have never worked an honest day in their life' he turns immediatetly around and acts offended that somebody tried his dipsh!t tactics against his party. Donkeypunches for both of them!
E pur si muove -Galileo

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