gkirk
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Whats Going On In Germany?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:50 pm

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pelican
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:05 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
Schroeder playing dirty or what?

No, he isn't. The German Chancellor isn't - unlike the British PM -allowed to suspend the Parliament. But if he want do to so he has to loose a vote of confidence. That's what happened yesterday. The target are new elections in autumn.

pelican
 
Udo
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:11 pm

No, I wouldn't say he plays dirty. Schröder and his government had no other choice but trying to get new elections. He not only faces oppositon from the majority of Germans, but also from within his own party and his Green partners. In the current constellation it would be impossible to go forward with any reforms which Germany really needs. So waiting one year for the next regular elections without being able to actively govern would be a waste of time and a loss for Germany.


Regards
Udo
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mrniji
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:05 pm

Defiitely the best he could do.. and at least I hope he wins again, in the same constellation... CDU failed 16 yrs, and germany with Agenda 2010 and hartz IV is on the right track.. now all sides need to work together
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NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:28 am

Chancellor Schr�der is the first German head of the government (and probably one of very few in general) who is willing to sacrifice his political power in favour of the country.
I wouldn't call this "playing dirty".
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lijnden
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:56 am

I deal with Germans every day and even have a company in Mainz.
The Red-Green coalition has worsen German society in almost every field;

- Unemployment was never so high,
- New jobs were never created and the average age of a unemployed person
has dropped,
- Higher taxes for everybody,
- Higher deficit than ever before,
- Muslims radicalized more than ever before,
- Crime rates highest ever,
- Social programmes being dismantled,
- Educational crisis,
- International relations has never been so bad and bringing Germany to the
edge of isoloment,
- The right of referenda was blocked,
- German's infrastructure was not maintained,
- Very slow compliance with EU laws,
- Environmental policies (like the unwanted 'Pfand' on cans) did not work,

The only thing left for Schroeder: Political Suicide
In a Bundestag with so many unfit politicians I can understand the move of Schroeder. Maybe a coalition with Bavaria-miracle-manager Stoiber instead of the Greens would have reached to more accomplishments.

Anyway, I hope somebody will establish some sort of Political Diploma in the EU soon, before anybody is allowed to become a politician. (A license of competence like a driver-license).
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NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
Higher taxes for everybody,

Actually, taxes were lowered.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
Educational crisis

Education does not fall within the responsibilities of the Federal Government.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
The right of referenda was blocked,

Sorry?

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
International relations has never been so bad and bringing Germany to the
edge of isoloment,

This statement is at least debatable.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
Environmental policies (like the unwanted 'Pfand' on cans) did not work,

The so called Dosenpfand was a minor political decision within the last seven years.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
Muslims radicalized more than ever before,

Says who? And even if: Why is that the fault of the Federal Government?

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
Crime rates highest ever,

Dead wrong.
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gkirk
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:31 am

Can we all agreee that the Germans suck  Wink
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NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 5):
Anyway, I hope somebody will establish some sort of Political Diploma in the EU soon, before anybody is allowed to become a politician.

Feel free to study political science, but voters alone should remain being the only authority judging your competence. Claiming Germans voted "so many unfit politicians" into the Bundestag is offensive.
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NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):
Can we all agreee that the Germans suck

Sure, I'm quite good in sucking on certain body parts of young and beautiful women.  Smile
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Sabena332
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 9):
Sure, I'm quite good in sucking on certain body parts of young and beautiful women.

Me too.

Ask Teahan for details, rumor has it that he knows the sexual preferences of at least 50% of all A.netters.  Wink

Patrick
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lijnden
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:35 pm

Hi NoUFO,

Politicians and competence! You trust politicians with all that money and power and can garantee that not one Euro is wasted? No my friend, politicians should, just like doctors, pilots and the everyday bus-driver, get some form of Diploma or competence test. I think politicians should also be tested on drugs and alcohol abuse at random. They are not above the law or uebermenschen! Wasting public money should become a crime to be punished by long hours of community work or jail.

Here in NL we have so much proof of wasting money by politicians, it is not funny anymore! However, not one politician is held accountable. It makes me sick.

About crime rates in Germany: The are 1.2% on the rise!

Tschuess
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:55 pm

Schröder's tactic was a political masterstroke: Now the Union is forced to show their cards and...
no program! For the last years they have constantly been obstructing any reforms planed by the red-green government (which BTW also f*cked up a few times) and now they can show no program of their own.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
gkirk
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 9):
Sure, I'm quite good in sucking on certain body parts of young and beautiful men.

 Wow!
FlyAUA will invite you to his house now  Wink
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NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:50 am

Kirkie, please at least try to read carefully: I said women not men, you dirty forger.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 11):
Politicians and competence! You trust politicians with all that money and power and can garantee that not one Euro is wasted?

Where did I say that? In general, I do trust politicians as long as they don't come from the extreme right or left. I do not consider them worse or better than the average Joe, and I do not plan to join those who tirelessly bash politicians and blame them for almost everything but the weather.
Even banks and international conglomerates waste money.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 11):
No my friend, politicians should, just like doctors, pilots and the everyday bus-driver, get some form of Diploma or competence test.

As mentioned before, you can study political science and can get a diploma. However, in our country, politicians are elected representatives. Hence, a politician can - in theory - be a former peasant farmer or a cleaning lady, and this is the way it should be. If he or she is not qualified, the wannabe politician will never become a representative or will stop being one after a couple of years.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 11):
However, not one politician is held accountable. It makes me sick.

You don't need to vote for him or her next time.
To bring a politician to justice, he or she would have to embezzle money.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 11):
About crime rates in Germany: The are 1.2% on the rise!

Actually, it's 0.2% compared to 2003:
"... ergäbe sich 2004 bei Straftaten insgesamt für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland eine Steigerung von 0,2 Prozent (2004: 6.608.756 Fälle; 2003: 6.596.535 Fälle)"
Source: Bundeskriminalamt (http://www.bka.de)

You wrote the current rates were "the highest ever" which reads: the highest since the founding of the Federal Republic of Germany. This is dead wrong, because the crime rates are in a steady decline since the mid-70ies. Occasional rises like that of the last year notwithstanding.

Edit: Crappy umlauts.

[Edited 2005-07-04 17:53:12]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:01 am

Actually IMO, too many of our politicians are career politicians, who came from the university with a dgree in political sciences. The second biggest group are former civil servants or other people from the public sector, simply due to the fact that the state as the employer has to give them unlimited leave with a guarantee to get their old jobs back if they fail. Try this in the normal world. I wish our parliament would be a bit closer to the population, e.g. with entrepreneurs, blue collar workers (the ones which ruled the social democrats up to the 1970s, when it was still a worker's party, have largely been replaced with academics, sociologists, school teachers and politologists), some ex militaries, or maybe some research scientists. I think thid would bring more common sense into politics. Right now the careerists are only watching the polls, to have a reelection guaranteed, because without it, they'd be unemployed, or the civil servant types, who do everything for their protected species, but ignore the rest of the population (why do you think the public sector in Germany is so inefficient?).


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
pelican
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
Actually IMO, too many of our politicians are career politicians, who came from the university with a dgree in political sciences.

Generally I agree with you on this matter. But jurists are by far the biggest group. They are coming from the civil service (you mentioned the reason) or are lawyers. The second biggest group are teachers. That's because they are also civil servants.
Unfortunately ex-minister Müller proofed that "Quereinsteiger" (career changers) aren't the better choice by default.
It should be prohibited to be civil servant and member of parliament.

Statistic about profession of members of the Bundestag:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitglied_des_Deutschen_Bundestages

pelican
 
NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 16):
It should be prohibited to be civil servant and member of parliament.

Being a civil servant does not mean the loss of civil rights.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:58 am

But I think there is a ban on active soldiers to become an MDB (or any political occupation). They'll have to retire first. The same AFAIK applies to police officers.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
pelican
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 17):
Being a civil servant does not mean the loss of civil rights.

Huh? In the UK you have to quit before you become a member of parliament. Where would such a regultion interfere with your civil rights?

pelican
 
NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
But I think there is a ban on active soldiers to become an MDB (or any political occupation). They'll have to retire first. The same AFAIK applies to police officers.

Wrong. Fortunately. I would vehemently protest agains such a decision.
Excerpt from a Bundeswehr brochure issued by the Ministry of Defense:

"Integration
- Sie will die Einbettung des Soldaten in Staat und Gesellschaft fördern durch möglichst heimatnahe Einberufung, Ausgang nach Dienst, aktives und passives Wahlrecht und erlaubte politische Betätigung sowie Berufsförderung. Die Bundeswehr ist in den Staat durch Verfassung und Gesetze eingeordnet und in die Gesellschaft eingebunden."

http://sicherheitspolitik.bundeswehr.de/14/4.php

Edit: Those stupid umlauts!

Norbert

[Edited 2005-07-04 20:40:21]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:43 am

Passives Wahlrecht I knew, but i thought a soldier had to stay politically neutral and was not allowed to be a member of a radical party.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:53 am

Jan,
Civil servants, police officers and soldiers have a Damocles' Sword over their head if they are members of a politically radical party. True.
At the same time, they shall be politically active but in a civil way - not too vocal but active.
The same group is asked to stay politically neutral while in office / uniform.

Pelican: I don't care about what Britons do. Members of the German Bundestag are asked to remain in their professions as long possible, which IMO is right for various reasons.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:03 am

Ok, you will never see a e.g. a soldier, who is an MDB sitting in parliament, wearing his uniform.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
lijnden
Posts: 528
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:08 am

Hi NoUfo,

I said the crime rate was never so high, which is true. OK, if you count WW2 you might see higher numbers, but that was war.

Quote:
As mentioned before, you can study political science and can get a diploma. However, in our country, politicians are elected representatives. Hence, a politician can - in theory - be a former peasant farmer or a cleaning lady, and this is the way it should be. If he or she is not qualified, the wannabe politician will never become a representative or will stop being one after a couple of years.

Anyway, aren't politicians in Germany not directly elected but appointed by the party to hold a seat. At least I cannot imagine anybody voting for number 21 or number 23 on the CDU-list except family and friends. The fact remains that a group of complete incompetent people are able to run Germany. What often follows is economic downfall, high unemployment and lack of investments in the stock markets because there is no trust. I believe Germany is like this since about the early 90's. The political balance is completely gone and what is running Germany today are saloon-socialists who only care about themselves. Look at the EU-constitution. This was ratified on a Thursday afternoon in the Bundestag without any major discussion. What did the average German think of this idea? The Bundestag voted 96% in favor and 4% against. Hardly a representation of it's people, don't you think! More like major arrogance. I think in a referendum in Germany it would be at least a close call, if not a defeat.
Remember in Holland the parliament voted 83% in favor and 17% against. The results in a referendum were >60% against. A loud wake-up call for Den Haag and to Brussels. When does Berlin gets its wake up call?

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1581297,00.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jun2005/neth-j04_prn.shtml

Ciao
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:47 am

For the federal elections you'll have two votes. The first one picks a direct candidate for your constituency. The second, far more important one picks a party list. The distribution of the seats in the Bundestag is calculated out of the relative votes for all parties, which gained more than 5% of all votes and all direct candidates who won their constituency in a quite complicated proportional system (complicated because you can't have half a candidate o one third of a candidate, but on the other hand the parliament is not suppoed to exceed a certain size, though small variations are possible to allow the proportions).

Considering the EU constitution, there was enough of a debate over the last few months. Referenda are not included in our constitution since the founding of the Fderal Republic of Germany in 1949. The Allies, who had to approve of the constitution back then, were afraid we would use it to vote the Nazis back into power.The constitution has simply never been amended concerning referenda since then.

The biggest economic problem of Germany are the continuing payments for the East, which eat up a lot of our budget.

Refering to the crime statistics, the highest increase were violations of the weapons act. This came mostly because this law was modified in April 2003 and in several instances things which were permitted before became illegal (e.g. butterfly knives became illegal, so anybody caught with such a knife was automatically charged with an offense against the weaons act). Actual use of guns or gun imitations in violent crime (e.g. for robbery) went back.
The increae of soft drug crimes (e.g. concerning canabis) happened mostly due to stricter controls by the police and customs officers (e.g. I see customs regularly doing spot checks on the roads leading from the Dutch border into Germany).
The third big itme is internet fraud, due to the higher use of internet banking and internet business.
Offenses against immigration laws became less as well, since the eastern European countries joined the EU.


The statistics (in German language):
http://www.bmi.bund.de/cln_012/nn_12...zeiliche_Kriminalstatistik_2004_de

It helps to have a look at the sources.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:00 am

BTW, the statistics only covers cases where the police investigated. It doesn't say if there was a charge by a prosecutor or a conviction following the investigations. The 2004 statistics shows an increase by 0.9% compared to 2003.
They state though that in 2003 about 20,000 cases were not included in the statistics due to IT problems. If they were, the increase would have only been 0.2 %.

Jan

[Edited 2005-07-04 23:02:25]
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Andreas
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):
Can we all agreee that the Germans suck

Absolutely...but to be more precise: Germans definitely do suck (and love too suck, too!) on several parts of human beings (MW, WM, MM, WW), whereas Scots...well, you of all a.netters should know best  Wink Big grin
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pelican
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):

Sometimes we (meaning us Germans) should. It's not all bad on these little isles.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):

Pelican: I don't care about what Britons do. Members of the German Bundestag are asked to remain in their professions as long possible, which IMO is right for various reasons.

There is a reason why by far the biggest profession group in the Bundestag a civil servants. Generally there is not a problem with civil servants in the Bundestag. But 33,5 % civil servants are too much. This more than twice the number of the next biggest profession group. The balance is lost. I'm just trying to find a way to reduce the percentage of civil servants in the Bundestag.

BTW Could you name those various reasons?

pelican
 
NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:15 am

Jan, You're right, you won't see police officers or soldiers in uniform in a parliament, but they are entitled to get elected.

Lijnden, At the risk of boring you I'll say it again: crime rates are in a steady decline - contrary to popular beliefs. The reason for that is probably that most crimes are committed by male aged 20 to 30. Since there are less adolescents and young men compared to recent decades, crime rates are lower than ever. What is incraesing, however, is the brutality with which crimes are being undertaken. This is a common tendency, not limited to Germany, though.

Add to this that many crimes simply weren't possible before the Internet became what it is today and that we got rid of the iron curtain that separated Germany from Eastern Europe, crime rates are comparatively low.
Today, Berlin is one of the safest major cities in the world with the lowest crime rate for the last twelve years.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
Anyway, aren't politicians in Germany not directly elected but appointed by the party to hold a seat. At least I cannot imagine anybody voting for number 21 or number 23 on the CDU-list except family and friends.

Partially true. In Germany, you cast two votes, namely a first vote (Erststimme) for a constituency candidate, and a second vote (Zweitstimme) for a party list.
Although the second vote is more important, in some cases, a party may win more constituency seats than the number of seats the party is entitled to according to the result of the second vote. The party than keeps the surplus seats (so called Überhangmandate), and the total number of seats in the Bundestag is increased accordingly. Those surplus seats saved Schröders political carrier after the last election. They are important, because they remirror the direct will of the population.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
The fact remains that a group of complete incompetent people are able to run Germany.

No, I consider most of the ministers that form the cabinet competent. Their opinions may differ from mine but that does not indicate incompetency.
To the contrary, I consider most people who generalise and never miss a change to bash politicians politically incompetent.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
Look at the EU-constitution. This was ratified on a Thursday afternoon in the Bundestag without any major discussion. What did the average German think of this idea? The Bundestag voted 96% in favor and 4% against. Hardly a representation of it's people, don't you think! More like major arrogance.

I wish we had a referendum on the constitution. But then: We are living in a representative republic. Full stop. Furthermore, it is not true that there was no major discussion. The Bundestag is not the only place where political discussions take place.
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Klaus
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
I said the crime rate was never so high, which is true.

Wrong.

The official crime statistic (download PDF here from the federal interior ministry) shows on page 3 that neither absolute nor relative crime incidents are anywhere above the Kohl years. The maximum number in recent years was in 1993 under Kohl, not in 2004 under Schröder.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
Anyway, aren't politicians in Germany not directly elected but appointed by the party to hold a seat.

Nonsense.

About half of the Bundestag seats are reserved for directly elected representatives, the rest is filled up with list candidates according to the ratio of the votes to represent the will of the voters as closely as possible.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
The fact remains that a group of complete incompetent people are able to run Germany.

Rubbish.

You´ve already demonstrated that you yourself are completely incompetent about german politics. Sorry, that definitely puts you out of the race when it´s about judging other people´s competence to govern.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
What often follows is economic downfall, high unemployment and lack of investments in the stock markets because there is no trust.

You have no clue at all, do you?

Pretty much the entire Schröder government period has been marked by an intense overhaul of structures in Germany which were completely neglected in the sixteen years of the Kohl administration. Even those same opposition parties agree today that the reforms were overdue.

It could have been a lot less painful if those sixteen years hadn´t been as stagnant and had several massive mistakes not been made back then. But they were, so cleaning up is not as easy as it could have been. Especially unemployment is now being recorded more precisely, without taking the opportunity to hide a large percentage of unemployed as was possible before and is still commonly done elsewhere.

By the way, according to international surveys Germany is still among the most attractive nations worldwide when it´s about foreign investment due to its top-notch infrastructure and its well-educated workforce, among other factors. It seems actual investors have little interest for your kind of transparent doomsday propaganda.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
I believe Germany is like this since about the early 90's. The political balance is completely gone and what is running Germany today are saloon-socialists who only care about themselves.

Laughable.

This administration has done a lot more hard work in its less than seven years than the previous one in sixteen. Your assessment is so far off it´s simply silly.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 24):
Look at the EU-constitution. This was ratified on a Thursday afternoon in the Bundestag without any major discussion. What did the average German think of this idea? The Bundestag voted 96% in favor and 4% against. Hardly a representation of it's people, don't you think! More like major arrogance. I think in a referendum in Germany it would be at least a close call, if not a defeat.

Both in France and in Holland the referenda were taken hostage by completely unrelated topics and by xenophobic populists who never even discussed the actual issues being decided.

Both rejections were heavily determined by domestic policy and had very little to do with Europe. Under those circumstances the rejection of popular referenda by the fathers and mothers of the german Grundgesetz can only be seen as prudent and completely correct.


You have exposed yourself as being so completely clueless about the german political situation that you´ve only embarrassed yourself and your vicious prejudices. I´m just glad that not every one of your compatriots has the same chip on his or her shoulder as you do. My condolences.  Yeah sure
 
NoUFO
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 28):
Sometimes we (meaning us Germans) should. It's not all bad on these little isles.

True, I was little harsh. Sometimes we should risk catching a glimpse.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 28):
There is a reason why by far the biggest profession group in the Bundestag a civil servants. Generally there is not a problem with civil servants in the Bundestag. But 33,5 % civil servants are too much.

Agreed.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 28):
I'm just trying to find a way to reduce the percentage of civil servants in the Bundestag.

Join (or found) a party and get enlisted and elected.
If you won't get reelected after four or eight years, you'll at least get a pension many people consider way too high, not noticing that they contradict themselves: Either there is a generous pension for former members of the Bundestag that takes the pressure from their shoulders OR you won't see other people than civil servants who don't need to care about their employment as members of the parliament.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 28):
BTW Could you name those various reasons?

* If you won't get reelected, you have better chances not to rely solely on the above mentioned pension. After four or more years of being outside of your original profession, you'll probably have lost track of developments that affect your job.

* As mentioned by Jan, we already have many "career politicians", who are nothing but professional politicians. It's healthy for a democracy if politicians stay in touch with burdens and hassles the average employee has to fight with.

[Edited 2005-07-04 23:38:50]
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Andreas
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:46 am

Klaus,

what's wrong with you? Having a bad day? Did wifey leave you for a hot young investment banker from Farnkfurt  Wink Big grin? Jeez, calm down, in your age, such elaborate ravings can be hazardous to your health...and with you gone, who else is able to drive Banco completely crazy using only non-football topics... Big grin

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
The fact remains that a group of complete incompetent people are able to run Germany.

Rubbish.

Actually he does have a point there, if I listen to all those nice comments on how make it better after the September elections, I want to throw up immediately...such unbelievable nonsense!!!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
About half of the Bundestag seats are reserved for directly elected representatives, the rest is filled up with list candidates according to the ratio of the votes to represent the will of the voters as closely as possible.

Er...um...those lists are widely used to bring candidates into the parliament who would otherwise stand NO chance to get there, like old party soldiers, friends of the chancellor etc etc etc., so basically he does have a point there, too!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Pretty much the entire Schröder government period has been marked by an intense overhaul of structures in Germany which were completely neglected in the sixteen years of the Kohl administration. Even those same opposition parties agree today that the reforms were overdue.
It could have been a lot less painful if those sixteen years hadn´t been as stagnant

Yes I do agree here, those 16 Kohl years were indeed the worst thing that happened to this country during the last 60 years. Unfortunately this doesn't help us one single bit in 2005, and it is a sheer fact that Schroeder is politically dead, period! And even more unfortunately I can't really see salvation after the elections. It's out society "business model" that sucks big time, and as long as our political parties stick to it, no real reforming can take place.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Both in France and in Holland the referenda were taken hostage by completely unrelated topics and by xenophobic populists who never even discussed the actual issues being decided.

You know somehow I doubt that, at least in the Netherlands, as for France you're definitely right. Still it remains a fact that there was NO DISCUSSION in Germany, none whatsoever!!!!! And nobody ever asked the Germans what kind of Europe they favour...no exactly democratic, isn't it?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
You have exposed yourself as being so completely clueless about the german political situation that you´ve only embarrassed yourself and your vicious prejudices. I´m just glad that not every one of your compatriots has the same chip on his or her shoulder as you do. My condolences.

Aus jetzt, SITZ!!!!!  Wink Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting Andreas (Reply 32):
Aus jetzt, SITZ!!!!!

I am sitting down. Not my fault I'm six feet four.

Signed,
Klaus

(*WOW* my first signed by post Big grin )
I support the right to arm bears
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Andreas (Reply 32):
You know somehow I doubt that, at least in the Netherlands, as for France you're definitely right. Still it remains a fact that there was NO DISCUSSION in Germany, none whatsoever!!!!! And nobody ever asked the Germans what kind of Europe they favour...no exactly democratic, isn't it?

Among people who are interested in EU affairs, there was a discussion, but as you may have noticed e.g. during the EU parliament elections, most people are not interested and even treat these elections as a joke. No wonder we only have B class politicians sitting in Brussels.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
Among people who are interested in EU affairs, there was a discussion

You can hardly call that a public discussion! Besides I do believe that those discussions are on the wrong level:

I cannot recall any discussions about the EU finances, about allowing coutries like Bulgaria and Romania in (ok, Turkey, big exception, but look who's doing the discussing: The yellow press and extremists!!!), about German governments crawling exclusively into French asses etc etc etc....

And THAT is what I'm waiting for!!! I really like to know what Geremans WANT, and NOT what the German government WANTS!

btw: We have class B politicians in Berlin, too  Wink Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
If you won't get reelected, you have better changes not to rely solely on the above mentioned pension. After four or more years of being outside of your original profession, you'll probably have lost track of developments that affect your job.

Actually you will only get pensions after 8 years, but I see your point. Although increasing pensions or the incomes of MdBs is impossible nowadays, it could change something.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
If you won't get reelected, you have better changes not to rely solely on the above mentioned pension. After four or more years of being outside of your original profession, you'll probably have lost track of developments that affect your job.

I know but the job guarantee for civil servants is unfair. Maybe we should abolish the job guarantee? This could indeed be a solution. Even better would be to grant "Beamtenstatus" only to a small group of state employees. The problem is, those civil servants in the Bundestag would have to change the civil service laws. That's what I call "Den Bock zum G�rtner machen".

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
As mentioned by Jan, we already have many "career politicians", who are nothing but professional politicians. It's healthy for a democracy if politicians stay in touch with burdens and hassles the average employee has to fight with.

I know how it sounds, but I can't see a connection between beeing a pampered civil servant and staying in touch with burdens and hassles the average employee has to fight.
Beeing a student of political science myself I know about the discussion about "career politicians". I am still not convinced that's a bad development. However the connection between those "career politicians" and our "civil servant problem" is vague. Quite contrary many of those "career politicians" are civil servants...

pelican

[Edited 2005-07-05 00:18:46]
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting Andreas (Reply 32):
Yes I do agree here, those 16 Kohl years were indeed the worst thing that happened to this country during the last 60 years.

I don't want to euphemise the government of Kohl but to call it the worst thing that happened to Germany is exaggerated. But we have to postpone this discussion because I need some sleep.

I recommend everybody to read "Der Fall Deutschland. Der Abstieg eines Superstars". It reveals at what time our problems started. Before somebody thinks it's a hymn on Kohl I have to say it was edited by Stefan Aust...

Gute Nacht

pelican
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 36):
I know but the job guarantee for civil servants is unfair. Maybe we should abolish the job guarantee?

Sure. The main reason for why I am not a teacher now is that some people were afraid I, a hard of hearing, could claim I was no longer able to understand the students - and retire early.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 36):
Beeing a student of political science myself I know about the discussion about "career politicians". I am still not convinced that's a bad development.

Not necessarely. Those in truly responsible positions will always be fulltime politicians. I think what we need is a healthy mix.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 36):
Quite contrary many of those "career politicians" are civil servants...

Not former lawyers by any chance?

Anyway, the only chance to change things is to get involved.
Many people moan that politicians are fat and overpaid - but for some reasons they don't even think of getting politically active. Hence, the job of a politician can't really be that attractive.

[Edited 2005-07-05 00:33:50]
I support the right to arm bears
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 38):
Sure. The main reason for why I am not a teacher now is that some people were afraid I, a hard of hearing, could claim I was no longer able to understand the students - and retire early.

How true. I visited my old high school last year (after almost 20 years) and discovered that all of the lazy teachers we had back then filed for diability and early retirement. The good teachers though worked until official retirement age or are still working.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
avek00
Posts: 3157
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:45 am

I'm glad that the Social Democrats are about to swept from power - the CDU is far more likely to level with the German people on the compelling need for economic reform, and will hopefully also candidly address the real issues facing Germany as its population becomes increasing nonwhite, non-German speaking, and unassimilated in the ways of German life.
Live life to the fullest.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 40):
I'm glad that the Social Democrats are about to swept from power - the CDU is far more likely to level with the German people on the compelling need for economic reform, and will hopefully also candidly address the real issues facing Germany as its population becomes increasing nonwhite, non-German speaking, and unassimilated in the ways of German life.

Hahaha! The CDU encouraged most of the Russian-Germans to come to Germany, they used them in an election and then dropped them, now especially the young men, who grew up in Russia and never really learned German are a hight crime factor, but since they received German passports due to their ancestors having emigrated to Russia 300 years ago, they don't count as foreigners. And concerning the economic reform, the CDU so far has not shown any valid program and suggestion. The only thing they did during the last seven years was to criticise and to obstruct after they got the majority in the upper chamber of the parliament. They woe the retirees, but can't tell where the money for their promisses will come from. They promise big tax cuts, but at the same time want to increase the Bundeswehr, again, where does the money come from?
Merkel suggested cuts in the social security system, which will Margaret Thatcher look tame.
But they have their lobby groups (pensioners, small entrepreneurs, farmers, house owners) who all receive subsidies and tax cuts, but she doesn't want to cut from them.

And your remark about Germany increasingly becoming non-white and non-white inmmigrants being unassimilated is in my opinion racist.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Andreas (Reply 32):
Klaus, what's wrong with you? Having a bad day? Did wifey leave you for a hot young investment banker from Farnkfurt?

Well, you´re wrong on every single possible level there...! Big grin

Quoting Andreas (Reply 32):
and with you gone, who else is able to drive Banco completely crazy using only non-football topics...

Banco doesn´t need a further nudge across the threshold to complete insanity; He´s already a full citizen of the british incarnation of La La Land...  crazy 

Why kick one who´s already down in the mud? Big grin


No, I just can´t stand posts above a certain concentration of unfounded prejudice - especially when presented with an air of self-assured omniscience. You can do that - but in that case better be right about a thing or two!

Our present government has certainly lacked exactly the one single trait Kohl was actually any good about: Massaging people´s souls. Schröder is definitely mostly incompetent about that. (Schröder: "If you´ve got visions, you ought to see your doctor!"  crazy  )

But on the question of actual substance people are whining about many things - but we all know that most of the decisions were simply necessary, even if unwelcome and often imperfect (with the opposition´s permanent obstruction being one of the main reasons). But what needs to be done needs to be done. Jumping ship now simply because reality hurts is cowardice - especially when the opposition stands completely empty-handed with any kind of sound alternative strategy.

Blindly "thatcherizing" Germany would simply land us in the same spot (if that!): A mostly exterminated industry, rotting infrastructure, (further) increasing social problems and probably not even the kind of transient bubble economy the britons have right now.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):
Hahaha!

Exactly. No further commentary necessary! Big grin
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
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RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 40):
I'm glad that the Social Democrats are about to swept from power - the CDU is far more likely to level with the German people on the compelling need for economic reform, and will hopefully also candidly address the real issues facing Germany as its population becomes increasing nonwhite, non-German speaking, and unassimilated in the ways of German life.

*cough* You should not post when you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about! *cough*

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Our present government has certainly lacked exactly the one single trait Kohl was actually any good about: Massaging people´s souls. Schröder is definitely mostly incompetent about that. (Schröder: "If you´ve got visions, you ought to see your doctor!" crazy )

But on the question of actual substance people are whining about many things - but we all know that most of the decisions were simply necessary, even if unwelcome and often imperfect (with the opposition´s permanent obstruction being one of the main reasons). But what needs to be done needs to be done. Jumping ship now simply because reality hurts is cowardice - especially when the opposition stands completely empty-handed with any kind of sound alternative strategy.

Blindly "thatcherizing" Germany would simply land us in the same spot (if that!): A mostly exterminated industry, rotting infrastructure, (further) increasing social problems and probably not even the kind of transient bubble economy the britons have right now.

I think you are right. Schroeder and Fischer have the right ideas, but lack the charisma to make a credible "I can only ofer you tears, blood and sweat..." speech, which will convince the German population to ge their act together and do something. I think nobody has problems with reforms, even if they hurt, as long as a goal is being seen and as long as they hit everybody equally. But at the moment our new ruling class, the large scale share holders believe that they are exempt from the sacrifices needed and that their profit will constantly increase while everybody else holds back.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
a credible "I can only ofer you tears, blood and sweat..." speech, which will convince the German population to ge their act together and do something.

That is, if you can get them away from watching afternoon talk shows, Volksmusik and Tatort...  Sad

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
I think nobody has problems with reforms

Beg to differ... Ever heard of St Florian? That's how I think Germany works, "Reforms are great as long as I'm not affected!" First and foremost, people worry about the threats posed by a reform - if you're lucky, they'll spend a second thinking about the opportunities.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
the large scale share holders believe that they are exempt from the sacrifices needed

Welcome to the world of uncontrolled capitalism; Social Market Economy? Pah! That's so yesterday!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:25 am

Aloges,

Let them vote for "Margaret" Merkel and Sir Edmund. They will get what they want. I, in meantime, will leave this country for greener pastures.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:34 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
I, in meantime, will leave this country for greener pastures.

If only I could already do that... Norway is great, especially for med people.  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
That is, if you can get them away from watching afternoon talk shows, Volksmusik and Tatort...

Sure... but I suspect people are partially retreating to those diversions exactly because they haven´t been "called to work" by fearful politicians. I still believe most people actually want to be challenged - germans have often proved that once the shit hits the fan they´re on deck and they´ll get it done.

A fool the politician who leaves this resource untapped!
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Whats Going On In Germany?

Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:31 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Well, you´re wrong on every single possible level there...!

Oh my, then I'd rather not find you raving on a really bad day Big grin

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Why kick one who´s already down in the mud?

Because he's English...he urgently needs it  Smile

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
You can do that - but in that case better be right about a thing or two!

As I pointed out, he IS right about one or two things!!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
the kind of transient bubble economy the britons have right now.

Not sure how you define bubble economy...?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
germans have often proved that once the shit hits the fan they´re on deck and they´ll get it done. A fool the politician who leaves this resource untapped!

And they have repeatedly proven that, should politicians wholeheartedly announce reforms and then come out with ridiculous patchworks just like red-green in the last few years, indicating that nothing really will change in this country, they tend to draw back on the "scheissegal" position. And the organisational structure of our society ("Konsens-gesellschaft" and "Generationenvertrag") does help that position extremely well!!

Somebody once said that a people does - in the end- get the politicians it deserves...exactly the point in Germany, and nothing will change in September, I'm afraid!!
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