rjpieces
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US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:18 am

I found this ad by FLAME (Facts and Logic about the Middle East) in the latest edition of Commentary. I thought this essay did a good job of summarizing why Israel is a strategic asset to the US. When push comes to shove, no lobby can build the kind of relationship the United States has with Israel. I don't want to start a war here...But when A.netters wonder why the US is supportive of Israel, this is one of the many reasons why.

What are the Facts?

The only democratic country in the Middle East. Israel is the only genuinely democratic state in the Middle East. It is committed to freedom and equality, and the rule of law. It embodies the fundamental values that are in tune with those of America and that America has traditionally supported. Israel’s military and political importance in the Middle East and its strategic position stabilize the entire area, including the oil fields of the Persian Gulf. During the Cold War, it was America’s indispensable rampart against the inroads and expansionist ambitions of the Soviet Union. It is now a western bulwark against the aggressive intents of Iran and other bellicose nations that threaten the interests of the United States. It is a most reliable partner in the promotion of Western strategic interests and in the stabilization of the Middle East. Over 20% of its budget goes for defense, compared to 7% in the U.S. and less than 1% in Japan. Israel has one of the best armies in the world. Its navy and air force are the major deterrent forces in the eastern Mediterranean.

Israel effectively secures NATO’s southeastern flank, without having a single American soldier stationed in its territory. Still, the superb military installations, the air and sea lift capabilities, the equipment and food storage capacity, and the trained manpower to maintain and repair sophisticated U.S. equipment are instantly at hand in Israel. It is the only country in the area that makes itself available to the United States, in any contingency.

Only fraction of aid stays in Israel. There is no other country in the Middle East except Israel that can be considered to have a stable government or populace friendly to the United States. There is much danger that any military aid to Arab countries, and military equipment given or sold to them, will suffer the same fate as the untold billions of dollars and priceless military secrets that were lost to our enemies in the debacle of Iran. Is Saudi Arabia more stable? Egypt? Jordan? Kuwait? Judge for yourself!

Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel. By far the largest share remains with American defense contractors. Peter McPherson, former administrator of the Agency for International Development, estimated that every billion dollars of aid to Israel creates 60,000 to 70,000 jobs in the United States.

Compared to the $2.0 billion yearly military aid to Israel, the U.S. contributes more than $130 billion(!) every year to the defense of Europe and more than $30 billion to the defense of Japan, Korea, and the Far East. Over 300,000 U.S. troops are stationed with NATO and over 30,000 U.S. troops in the Far East. In contrast, not one single U.S. soldier needs to be stationed and put at risk in Israel. U.S. military analysts estimate that the U.S. would have to spend the equivalent of $150 billion a year in the Middle East to maintain a force equivalent to Israel’s.

There are many other benefits that the U.S. military derives from Israel. Israel is the only country that has gained battlefield experience with U.S. weapons. This experience is immediately conveyed to the U.S. Enormous quantities of captured Soviet weapons and defense systems were turned over to the U.S. military for analysis. Israel, in the light of its experience, continually modifies U.S. weapons systems. For instance, Israeli scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone and similar improvements, mostly in avionics, in later-generation planes. It would be more in line with reality if military aid to Israel were classified as part of the defense budget, rather than as “aid”. Israel is truly America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East. Former President Reagan put it well: “The fall of Iran has increased Israel’s value as perhaps the only remaining strategic asset in the region on which the United States can fully rely.” American aid to Israel is a two-way street. Aid to Israel is America’s greatest defense bargain.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cairo
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:38 am

True, Israel is an important strategic asset for America in the middle east, it should also be pointed out that from time to time Israel can do America's dirty work, like bombing nuclear reactors of Arab countries.

However, what the article doesn't mention, is that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians has been horrible. This situation is a big reason Muslims from all over the world dislike American policies and is one of the ideological underpinnings of terrorism against America. Supporting Israel costs Americans tremendously more then the billions in direct aid, supporting Israel so one-sidedly costs America's reputation endlessly.

Israel also has elements of a theocracy and is not quite the robust western-style democracy they'd have us believe.

Cairo
 
yak42
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:40 am

Are you real? Are you just trying to start a flame war? As far as I know you could even be anti-Israeli and trying to raise the heckles about it.
 
tbar220
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:41 am

I'm not going to discuss this because its been discussed so many times and only leads to a fight. One thing though...

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Over 20% of its budget goes for defense, compared to 7% in the U.S. and less than 1% in Japan. Israel has one of the best armies in the world. Its navy and air force are the major deterrent forces in the eastern Mediterranean.

Doesn't the United States spend over half of our budget on defense/armed forces?
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ly7e7
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Over 20% of its budget goes for defense

Huh? More like 12%

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel.

The US aid $$$ are ONLY allowed to be spent for US industries.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone

That's the F-15I. Not any F-15. Same goes for F-16I
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
yak42
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:44 am

Oh I just noted that you wrote the word FLAME in you topic post. Why did I even respond?
 
rjpieces
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:46 am

Doesn't the United States spend over half of our budget on defense/armed forces?

No. Think about how much money that would be.....
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N1120A
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
It is committed to freedom and equality

Except for those of Arab or Iranian descent

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
and the rule of law.

Except fully binding International Law

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
aggressive intents of Iran

A nation that has not acted as aggressor, while Israel has

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The fall of Iran

Fall to where?

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone

That's the F-15I. Not any F-15. Same goes for F-16I

Those were not improvements, rather optimisations for use in Israel. I would not consider the Japanese versions of the F15 improvements either, rather tailor made to Japan's use.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ly7e7
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Those were not improvements, rather optimisations for use in Israel.

Actually neither. It just has entirely different avionics. Developed in Israel.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Bofredrik
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:03 am

It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...
 
ly7e7
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 9):
It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...

Unfortunately our nation did not come to life in the Rocky mountains or the forests of the Iroquoi  Smile

Besides, isn't Belgium an Islamic state already? Or was it France?  Smile
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Bofredrik
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:11 am

It was Palestine or Madagascar. Maybe Madagascar had been a safer place than the current position?
 
ly7e7
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 11):
Maybe Madagascar had been a safer place than the current position

Sure. And the Sweds should move to China.

Besides this is totally irrelevant in since 1948.

[Edited 2005-07-02 22:28:21]
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Bofredrik
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:27 am

Many swedes are moving to China and is opening factories etc.

And it was a jewish ghetto in Shanghai before.

Some of them came to Sweden after WW2.

http://www.shanghaighetto.com/about.html
 
ly7e7
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:29 am

Bofredrik,

You just don't get it, do you?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
aloges
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 11):
It was Palestine or Madagascar. Maybe Madagascar had been a safer place than the current position?

Oye vey... If you're trying to get into something ugly, you're doing pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Bofredrik
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:38 am

You know better than me about your history so tell us all.
 
Klaus
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:43 am

If you´re looking for a fight, Bofredrik, go to your local bar and start insulting the guests. You´ll get your buzz a lot easier and more thoroughly that way...  fight 
 
Bofredrik
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:46 am

Not at all. I just want to discuss this from another angle than the usual PC. And i do not go to a bar as i do not drink.  champagne 
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:02 am

Except for those of Arab or Iranian descent

All I will say to that is:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/594501.html

Reading that article yesterday, I couldn't note the irony. It made me smile. It still amazes me that Israeli Arabs have the most rights out of any Arabs in the Middle East.

Fall to where?

Fall from being a stable US ally to what it is today.

It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...

Umm, no thanks. Israel was a country long before 1948. Since many of the zionist pioneers arrived there starting in the 1880s, the Jewish communities in Palestine had long established local governments, schools, newspapers, Hebrew as a spoken language, a military, etc. Israel was in effect a country long before it was established.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Bofredrik
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:12 am

Maybe, but it was a lot of people there since many many many years. Palestinians/arabs etc. And many of them had to me moved. And most of them is still living in camps. Is that fair? No.
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Reading that article yesterday, I couldn't note the irony. It made me smile. It still amazes me that Israeli Arabs have the most rights out of any Arabs in the Middle East.

...because they can file copyright infringment cases? Yep, I see what you mean  Yeah sure

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Fall from being a stable US ally to what it is today.

...so stable that a revolution took place. What it is today is a hundred times better than what it was when it was a US ally.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Umm, no thanks. Israel was a country long before 1948. Since many of the zionist pioneers arrived there starting in the 1880s, the Jewish communities in Palestine had long established local governments, schools, newspapers, Hebrew as a spoken language, a military, etc. Israel was in effect a country long before it was established.

So Israel counts as a country pre-1948 according to you because there were a few Jewish hospitals and schools, while Palestine, which has the one of the world's richest histories, had been Arab for 1000+ years, had schools, hospitals, everything you can think of established for hundreds of years, does not count as one pre-1948? Talk about hypocracy.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:22 am

QR, I don't want to get into this debate, again.....The point of this thread was to point out to you and others who wonder why the US is so pro-Israeli.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NoUFO
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 16):
You know better than me about your history so tell us all.

One of the benefits of the Hypertext Markup Language (HTML for short) is the possibility to link different pages. The undelined text in Aloges' reply (#15) is called a link. You can click on it and read what Wikipedia has to say on the the So called Madagaskar-Plan.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 10):
Unfortunately our nation did not come to life in the Rocky mountains or the forests of the Iroquoi



Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
Besides this is totally irrelevant in since 1948.

Second that!

Israel is part of the ME, belongs there and has every right to exist and to provide safety and wealth to its citicens. Period. Whether or not the Britons and the the rest of the world could have found a line of the border more wisely choosen than that of 1948 is completely irrelevant.



I never wondered why the US is supportive of Israel, in fact I hope the US remains to be supportive. At the same time I don't think the US should unconditionally support every action the Israeli government takes like it had been the case. President Bush was right (yeah, really!) when he got angry over Sharon's cat-and-mouse game over Jewish settlements in Gaza.
The US sometimes seems to forget that Israel is part of a region and that peace won't be possible as long as the Arabic population is dissatisfied and feels ignored by the western world. Thus, a more balanced view could probably help Israel more than implicit support.

[Edited 2005-07-02 23:28:02]
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Shawn Patrick
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 24):
Israel is part of the ME, belongs there and has every right to exist

I think it's ironic that there are 3 million people in Gaza and the West Bank, and 93% of those are Palestinian. (statistic is only a few years old). I still don't know why it was OK for a lot of European Jews to invade Palestine and displace/kill/enslave millions of Palestinians. I would say that's NOT ok...

[Edited 2005-07-02 23:29:07]
 
NoUFO
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 24):
I still don't know why it was OK for a lot of European Jews to invade Palestine and displace/kill/enslave millions of Palestinians.

Ahem, they didn't.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:30 am

Then what really happened, NoUFO?
 
rjpieces
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:42 am

I think it's ironic that there are 3 million people in Gaza and the West Bank, and 93% of those are Palestinian. (statistic is only a few years old). I still don't know why it was OK for a lot of European Jews to invade Palestine and displace/kill/enslave millions of Palestinians.

Ummm, who exactly taught you that Palestinians were killed/enslaved?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
QR, I don't want to get into this debate, again.....The point of this thread was to point out to you and others who wonder why the US is so pro-Israeli.

Ok then, lets discuss that... To begin with, let me say that all the hatred that is aimed at the US and all the bitterness has been caused by the actions of the US, and they would have many more friends if the US government was not so hypocritical and biased. They would have popular support from more than just Israel and Kuwait, and they would be in a much better position than the one they are in today.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Israel�s military and political importance in the Middle East and its strategic position stabilize the entire area, including the oil fields of the Persian Gulf.

So it stabilizes the region by invading other countries (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, West Bank & Gaza Strip) and secures the oil fields for the US, in case any Arabs decide to not sell them their oil, eh?

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
he aggressive intents of Iran and other bellicose nations that threaten the interests of the United States.

Aggressive how? Iran has done nothing compared to Israel, which is one of the most aggressive nations in the region. Tell me one time in modern history where Iran has invaded a neighbouring country.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
It is the only country in the area that makes itself available to the United States, in any contingency.

...because any contingency in the Mideast would be a bigger risk to Israel than the US.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
There is no other country in the Middle East except Israel that can be considered to have a stable government or populace friendly to the United States.

Israel has the only stable government? Holy crap... so what are Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Kuwait, Jordan, etc? And Kuwait's populace is very friendly to the US as well. As for the rest of the Arab world, whose fault is that? The US decided to support Israel unconditionaly, and continues to support some of the most hated dictatorships in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia anyone?). This is something that is a direct cause of US policy, and the blame cannot be placed anywhere else.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
There is much danger that any military aid to Arab countries, and military equipment given or sold to them, will suffer the same fate as the untold billions of dollars and priceless military secrets that were lost to our enemies in the debacle of Iran. Is Saudi Arabia more stable? Egypt? Jordan? Kuwait? Judge for yourself!

Hmmmm, so US equipment is well used when it is used to kill Arabs by Israel, but not when it is used by Iraq to kill Iranians? Then you wonder why the US has such little support in the Arab world...

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Compared to the $2.0 billion yearly military aid to Israel, the U.S. contributes more than $130 billion(!) every year to the defense of Europe and more than $30 billion to the defense of Japan, Korea, and the Far East. Over 300,000 U.S. troops are stationed with NATO and over 30,000 U.S. troops in the Far East. In contrast, not one single U.S. soldier needs to be stationed and put at risk in Israel. U.S. military analysts estimate that the U.S. would have to spend the equivalent of $150 billion a year in the Middle East to maintain a force equivalent to Israel�s.

Look at a map, and compare the size of Europe and Israel. $2 Billion+ on a single nation is crazy, especially when it is openly agressive and openly invades and occupies neighbouring countries.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Israel is truly America�s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East. Former President Reagan put it well: �The fall of Iran has increased Israel�s value as perhaps the only remaining strategic asset in the region on which the United States can fully rely.� American aid to Israel is a two-way street. Aid to Israel is America�s greatest defense bargain.

Again, they are the only country the US can rely on because the US put itself in this position.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
Ahem, they didn't.

Nope, Palestinians are peacefully living side by side with the peaceful, generous Israelis with absolutley no prejudice, right?  Yeah sure They weren't so much as enslaved, but they suffered a fate just as bad: they were turned into refugees. And over ten thousand Palestinians died as Israel became a nation, so that part is definatley true.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:46 am

At the same time I don't think the US should unconditionally support every action the Israeli government takes like it had been the case. President Bush was right (yeah, really!) when he got angry over Sharon's cat-and-mouse game over Jewish settlements in Gaza.

Absolutely agree...But in all honesty, sometimes the US government acts as if the whole Palestinian problem is trivial compared to the serious strategic issues. They will say a few things for show, but at the end of the day, US interests come first. And this is wrong.

The US sometimes seems to forget that Israel is part of a region and that peace won't be possible as long as the Arabic population is dissatisfied and feels ignored by the western world. Thus, a more balanced view could probably help Israel more than implicit support.

Well, this is part of the whole larger problem of the West and the Arab world....You are 100% correct that the Arabs are dissatisfied. Woudln't you be if you lived in one of the poorest areas of the world, where 5% of people have internet access, and I could go on and on about the low living standards. This is why democracy and liberty is the answer for them, not oppressive US backed regimes that promote stability.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 26):
Then what really happened, NoUFO?

You make the second genesis of Israel look like an invasion of warmongering Jews, which wasn't the case. It has got more to do with the end of the British protectorate in Palestine and the UN ruling to divide the country. The Jews accepted the decision, the Arabs didn't and violence erupted immediately after.
I'm too lazy to echo Israel's history. Why don't you pick up an encyclopedia?

Edited to add quote.

[Edited 2005-07-02 23:48:45]
I support the right to arm bears
 
aloges
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:50 am

Congrats on turning yet another thread into an Israel vs. Palestine flamefest!  thumbsdown 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:59 am

Ok then, lets discuss that...

Thank you.

To begin with, let me say that all the hatred that is aimed at the US and all the bitterness has been caused by the actions of the US, and they would have many more friends if the US government was not so hypocritical and biased. They would have popular support from more than just Israel and Kuwait, and they would be in a much better position than the one they are in today.

The US has made many mistakes in dealing with the Middle East. Our biggest mistake was thinking that we could buy the peace by supporting dictators across the region. The US would have many more friends in the region if we didn't arm their oppressors, not because of support of Israel.

So it stabilizes the region by invading other countries (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, West Bank & Gaza Strip) and secures the oil fields for the US, in case any Arabs decide to not sell them their oil, eh?

You know as well as I do how split the Middle East is and how many Arab countries don't exactly get along with each other. Israel is absolutely a military deterrent.

Aggressive how? Iran has done nothing compared to Israel, which is one of the most aggressive nations in the region. Tell me one time in modern history where Iran has invaded a neighbouring country.

To argue that Iran and their nuclear intentions (which are self-proclaimed) isn't aggressive is just against logic.

...because any contingency in the Mideast would be a bigger risk to Israel than the US.

You really think that? The US has a HUGE stake in the Middle East. Look at the Gulf War I. Any threat to our oil supply is a major threat to national security (sadly, but that's another story).

Israel has the only stable government? Holy crap... so what are Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Kuwait, Jordan, etc? And Kuwait's populace is very friendly to the US as well. As for the rest of the Arab world, whose fault is that? The US decided to support Israel unconditionaly, and continues to support some of the most hated dictatorships in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia anyone?). This is something that is a direct cause of US policy, and the blame cannot be placed anywhere else.

Qatar, etc are stable but very, very tiny and not major military powers. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the other recipients of US military aid are FAR FROM stable...And yes, part of it is our own fault. That doesn't change the fact that Israel is by the far most stable military ally. Do you agree with that?

Hmmmm, so US equipment is well used when it is used to kill Arabs by Israel, but not when it is used by Iraq to kill Iranians? Then you wonder why the US has such little support in the Arab world...

The point was that the military equipment we sell to Egypt and Saudi Arabia can easily be used against us in the coming years if there is a revolution. Just like the case in Iran.....

Look at a map, and compare the size of Europe and Israel. $2 Billion+ on a single nation is crazy, especially when it is openly agressive and openly invades and occupies neighbouring countries.

That just proves the point! Europe, which isn't a battleground anymore since the end of the Cold War, costs us $130 billion a year and 300,000 troops. Not to mention the anti-Americanism over there and the fact that they say they don't want our military (but every time we offer to leave they turn us down). Israel essentially provides a military cover that the United States would have to provide if Israel did not.

Again, they are the only country the US can rely on because the US put itself in this position.

This is just part of the larger problem of what's wrong with the Middle East....If you want to see it as the US's fault for being in that position, then fine. But do you at least understand where our support for Israel comes from now?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:00 am

Congrats on turning yet another thread into an Israel vs. Palestine flamefest!

We're discussing US support of Israel, not 100+ year old history.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:09 am

RJpieces,

Do you care about ANYTHING else? Is there ONE other subject that you can even spend 5 minutes thinking about?

It seems that no matter what anyone thinks on this subject - you feel that you are the only one that 'knows' the real facts. If someone is pro-Israeli, you still act as though you need to teach them something.

Let it go.

It is really getting tiresome.

And you are far too emotional on this subject to ever be taken seriously as an 'expert' on it.


P.S. Why don't you learn to use the quote function like everyone else?
Happy 2006
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 20):
Maybe, but it was a lot of people there since many many many years. Palestinians/arabs etc. And many of them had to me moved. And most of them is still living in camps. Is that fair? No.

Why won't Jordan take them? Or Egypt? It is because it is unacceptable for the Arab world to accept that Jews are there and the camps are an international polemic that they can complain about to the rest of the world. Initially, I believe under the Belfour declaration, they were given Jordan. Now Jordan will not even take them.
Egypt, Saudi, and the rest of the Arab world could help them, but they deliberately choose not to. As for who was there first, in the realm of religion the Jews were. They were not of Euro decent but their belief in Israel has been around for much longer than moslems. The palestinians have mostly immigrated from other places (just as the Israelis) such as Egypt and Syria.
The fact is that all of the Arab world does not accept or help these people in the camps because it is the only way they have left to attack Israel, through suicide bombers from the camps as well as the media. They certainly know that any physical attack would be beaten.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:18 am

RJpieces,

Kyle,

Do you care about ANYTHING else? Is there ONE other subject that you can even spend 5 minutes thinking about?

Do a search of my posts and read away.

It seems that no matter what anyone thinks on this subject - you feel that you are the only one that 'knows' the real facts. If someone is pro-Israeli, you still act as though you need to teach them something.

I don't try to teach anyone anything. I do what EVERY A.netter does, write their own opinions and discuss it. You seem to be the one trying to force your opinion here...

Let it go.

No thanks.

It is really getting tiresome.

Then stop reading.

And you are far too emotional on this subject to ever be taken seriously as an 'expert' on it.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. That's God's gift to ALL OF US afterall.

And Kyle, please don't lecture me on being emotional in threads. I've seen you being quite emotional in several threads, so drop the holier than thou attitute.

P.S. Why don't you learn to use the quote function like everyone else?

Why don't you learn not to click on threads you don't want to read?

[Edited 2005-07-03 00:22:48]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:20 am

Why won't Jordan take them? Or Egypt? It is because it is unacceptable for the Arab world to accept that Jews are there and the camps are an international polemic that they can complain about to the rest of the world. Initially, I believe under the Belfour declaration, they were given Jordan. Now Jordan will not even take them.
Egypt, Saudi, and the rest of the Arab world could help them, but they deliberately choose not to. As for who was there first, in the realm of religion the Jews were. They were not of Euro decent but their belief in Israel has been around for much longer than moslems. The palestinians have mostly immigrated from other places (just as the Israelis) such as Egypt and Syria.
The fact is that all of the Arab world does not accept or help these people in the camps because it is the only way they have left to attack Israel, through suicide bombers from the camps as well as the media. They certainly know that any physical attack would be beaten.


Fumanchewd, there have been many, many, too many threads on that topic. This is why I tried to focus this one on the role Israel plays in US strategy in the region.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 28):
and secures the oil fields for the US

Since when is Israel in posession/control of any oil fields? Check up your facts first...

[Edited 2005-07-03 00:23:00]
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 37):
Fumanchewd, there have been many, many, too many threads on that topic. This is why I tried to focus this one on the role Israel plays in US strategy in the region.

Sorry. Smile
...but did you really start a thread on US-Israel and think that there would not be points and counterpoints about Palestine. Come on now, I may be pigheaded shhh  but not gullible.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:42 am

Sorry.
...but did you really start a thread on US-Israel and think that there would not be points and counterpoints about Palestine. Come on now, I may be pigheaded but not gullible.


Well, please try to minimize it, otherwise the discussion leads nowhere.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
flyAUA
Posts: 4287
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 28):
So it stabilizes the region by invading other countries (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, West Bank & Gaza Strip) and secures the oil fields for the US, in case any Arabs decide to not sell them their oil, eh?

And don't forget all the water (more precious than oil in the region) it steals by strategically having placed it's borders. While certain people in surrounding nations do not have clean drinking water, and fill their tap water tank(s) once every week, Israel allows itself to have luxuries and takes advantage of their situation to nourish their farmland while people across the border suffer!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 36):
Do a search of my posts and read away.

Here is just a sampling of your posts - and these are threads that YOU STARTED.

49 Iraqi Soldiers Executed
A Policy For Palestinians
A Survivor Of Palestinian Tyranny Defends Israel
Albany Mosque Busted For Terrorism Connections
An Idea For Iraq
An Israeli Hawk Accepts The President's Invitation
Ann Coulter On Muslims
Anti-Terrorism Units In American Cities
Arab Countries May Recognize Israel Soon
Arabs Boycott Holocaust Memorial
Arabs On The Verge Of Democracy
Arafat Continues To Hide Money From Palestinians
Arafat: I'll Become The Palestinian Nelson Mandela
Bernard Kerik Update
Bush Recalls Troops From Europe And Asia
Bush Speech--What Now?
Bush:Sharon And I Two Most Hated People In World
Cheney Gives Ok For Israel To Attack Iran
Connection Between Al Qaeda And Iraq
Day Of Silence Today
Democratic Realism--Thoughts On Foreign Policy
Developments In The West Bank
Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar
Egypt And Israel Sign Natural Gas Deal
For Those Visiting NYC...
France Deporting Radical Muslims
Great Article On American "Imperialism"
Happenings In Lebanon
Hezbollah Terrorist Sentenced To Prison In US
Hoping Spain Doesn't Withdraw Their Troops...
In Europe, An Unhealthy Fixation On Israel
Interesting Article About The Arab World
Interesting Facts About Israel
Iranian Group Signs Up Suicide Volunteers
Iraq Oklahoma City Bombing Connection?
Islamic Charities Held Responsible For Hamas
Israeli FM: Iran Able To Have Nuke In 6 Months
Jewish Vote In The US
Lawsuit Filed Against Arab Bank That Funds Terror
Lebanon, Now
Mahmoud Abbas's First Test As President
Map Of Free Countries
Maureen Dowd A Lightweight?
Muslim Group Apologizes For 9/11
Natan Sharansky, Source Of Bush's Agenda, Resigns
On Syria
Orthodox Jewish Rapper
Palestinian Terrorists Arrested In US
Paul Wolfowitz Gets Official Sendoff From Pentagon
Present For My Arch-Republican Friend
President Bush On Mid East Foreign Policy
President Bush Outlines New Middle East Strategy
Question About Bush
Rise Of The Vulcans, Great Book! (about GWB's cabinet)
Sad Article On US-Turkey Relationship
Saddam Paid Off The French Government
Scary April Fools Joke
So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush
Still A Nuclear Football?
Syria Pulls Some Troops Out Of Lebanon
Syrian Protests
Thomas Friedman On Arafat's (looming) Death
Top Neocon Named As US Ambassador To UN
Top Pentagon Civilian To Leave
Turkish Immigration In Germany (about Muslim population)
US Aid To Israel
US Sends Warning To Iran--Sells Israel Weapons
Was Nick Berg Jewish?
Watch Out Europe
What Happens If Israel Bombs Iran?
What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?
What Happens With This New Iranian Now?
What Will Happen With 4 More Years Of Bush?
Where Are The Leaders Of The Arab World?
Where Do Foreign Leaders Stay While In DC?
Why Israel Needs A Fence
Will Iran Get The Bomb?
Will Israel's Security Wall Stop Terrorism?
World Leaders Commemorate Auschwitz Liberation
World War IV
Wrong To Care About Your Countrymen More?
You Forgot Poland!


Quoting RJpieces (Reply 36):
You seem to be the one trying to force your opinion here...

No, I am not forcing anything. I am asking you to learn a new song.
Happy 2006
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 41):

Wasn't Turkey pis**ng off Iraq (and probably Syria, too) when they built the Euphrat dams?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:55 am

Here is just a sampling of your posts - and these are threads that YOU STARTED.

Your point? You accused me of not posting in other threads and a quick click of the search button would show you that I post in MANY threads. So I question why you're calling me out for posting Middle East threads. Either post on the topic, or don't post at all.

No, I am not forcing anything. I am asking you to learn a new song.

And I'm asking you not to post in a thread if you have nothing productive to add. Do you have an opinion on the essay above, or do you just post dribble in threads?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
flyAUA
Posts: 4287
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
Wasn't Turkey pis**ng off Iraq (and probably Syria, too) when they built the Euphrat dams?

I think so, but unlike other places, Syria has less of a water problem. Syria was famous for it's electricity problem, and Jordan was famous for it's water problem, so now they swap some of each. Still, Israel gets about 80-90% of water while Jordan gets about 10-20% for example from the "same sources". Just to give you a rough idea. Then look at the size of both nations too and it'll all make sense to you  Wink

[Edited 2005-07-03 01:01:32]
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:01 am

Still, Israel gets about 80-90% as much water as Jordan does for example from the "same sources".

Jordan wouldn't be getting the water anyway, unless they want to rule over the West Bank again which would be fine with me.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Except fully binding International Law

Which is irrelevant of itself, unless recognized by sovereign nations.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 9):
Israel do not belong in that region

Check your ancient history.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 10):
Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 9):
It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...

Unfortunately our nation did not come to life in the Rocky mountains or the forests of the Iroquoi

 laughing 

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 13):
Many swedes are moving to China and is opening factories etc.

And it was a jewish ghetto in Shanghai before.

Who do you love?

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 20):
Maybe, but it was a lot of people there since many many many years. Palestinians/arabs etc. And many of them had to me moved. And most of them is still living in camps. Is that fair? No.

I guess they could've stuck around, had they chosen to recognize the Israeli government that had taken power.  Yeah sure

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
So Israel counts as a country pre-1948 according to you because there were a few Jewish hospitals and schools, while Palestine, which has the one of the world's richest histories, had been Arab for 1000+ years, had schools, hospitals, everything you can think of established for hundreds of years, does not count as one pre-1948? Talk about hypocracy.

Like mentioned elsewhere here, Israel was a country there before the moslems ever took possession of the region.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 28):
So it stabilizes the region by invading other countries (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, West Bank & Gaza Strip) and secures the oil fields for the US, in case any Arabs decide to not sell them their oil, eh?

Invading? Israel is well-known for defending its sovereign interests, and has been the target, not aggressor, in invasions since 1948 (remember the Six-Day War, etc. ?).

Quoting QR332 (Reply 28):
Look at a map, and compare the size of Europe and Israel. $2 Billion+ on a single nation is crazy, especially when it is openly agressive and openly invades and occupies neighbouring countries.

Already refuted.

I for one, am glad to see any goodwill continue between the U.S. and Israel. They are a civil country, and, not to mention, will be important in the future.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
So I question why you're calling me out for posting Middle East threads.

Because it represents 84.22% of the threads that you have started in non-AV. And despite you naively asking me about it again - THAT was my point.

Your attempt to deflect it doesn't change the reality at all.

And if you can repeatedly post these manic Middle East threads on a daily basis, then yes I can post in them, around them or whatever I want.

I guess if the moderators tolerate your perpetual soapbox that's fine. But I can tell you there are other a.netters who are sick to death of this stuff, besides me.
Happy 2006
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US Aid To Israel

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:15 am

And if you can repeatedly post these manic Middle East threads on a daily basis, then yes I can post in them, around them or whatever I want.

Dearest, there hasn't been an Israel thread in AGES, probably about two months now.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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