prosa
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US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:36 am

This is so disgraceful, I don't know what to say:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4673987.stm
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
checkraiser
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:49 am

This might be some sort of SOP - but I think it sucks.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:40 pm

Normal, routine. Don't have to like it, but it is not unusual . . .

Why is it disgraceful Prosa?
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L-188
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:07 pm

Agreed, not unusual and routine.

Uncle Sam at times is overprotective of his boys and girls.
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GDB
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59 pm

SOP or not, it sends a very bad message.
Even allowing for the much reduced numbers of US personnel in the UK, compared to the cold war.

It is the lead item on the news here, inevitably, fairly or otherwise, it will be compared to the rapid return to normality by Londoners, or the large event held on Sunday; WW2 Flypast Over London - 10th July (by GDB Jul 11 2005 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Did no one say 'hold on, what are we saying about ourselves here?'

Worse still, you can bet some Islamist websites will be gloating about this.

A huge PR disaster, never mind the limited numbers of US personnel affected, it's very unfair on them.
It also reinforces some very uncomplimentary stereotypes about the US, from tourists to the political elite.
(And I've seen US tourists, the night after the bombings carrying on as normal in central London, including using public transport, so highly unfair on them).
 
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scbriml
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:01 pm

Is this what Dubya meant yesterday when he said

Quote:
"... the US will not retreat in the face of terrorism."

and

Quote:
"In this difficult hour, the people of Great Britain can know the American people stand with you."

As long as it isn't too close eh?  sarcastic   banghead 
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mrniji
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:04 pm

Though I think its inappropriate it rather looks like a normal routine
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saxdiva
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:12 pm

Aww, c'mon guys... don't you realize how f'ing HARD recruiting is these days?

I mean, hey---if you're gonna lose one of your headcount, it best be in a declared warzone. If one drops dead on the home turf of an allied nation, then you've gone and screwed up a parade rank for no good reason.





(Geez... when did I get so cynical?)
 
QANTASforever
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:44 pm

Am I the only one who doesn't see a problem with this?



QFF
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Banco
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:48 pm

GDB is right, this is a pretty big story here.

Whilst I don't doubt the decision was taken with the best of intentions, it's not just a PR disaster, it's incredibly stupid. Are the US military banned from going to downtown Detroit as well?

Turn it around. Can you imagine the outrage and uproar if the British government had done the same after September 11th?

I'm sure many in the US administration will be deeply embarrassed by this. They should be.
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QANTASforever
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Turn it around. Can you imagine the outrage and uproar if the British government had done the same after September 11th?

But it's not about public relations. The US military has a duty of care to all its employees to ensure their personal safety. If they don't warn personel against travel to London and there was (heaven forbid) another attack, imagine the backlash?

It's not like the London economy relies on US servicemen and women - just, like - what is the problem here?

Storm in a teacup.

Get over it.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Banco
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:01 pm

Oh, but it is, QFF.

One of the whole issues when dealing with terrorism is to to ensure that the terrorists don't succeed in changing things. This publicly announces that it has. It publicly says the terrorists have succeeded.

Equally, if London had suddenly become dramatically unsafe, then they would have a point. But in the great scheme of things, one attack with 50 casualties in a city of 8 million is pretty irrelevant. Bombing or no bombing, there are numerous US cities substantially more dangerous than London, so the same thing applies. Are US forces told not to venture there? You cannot say that banning them from entering London is an appropriate response given the very low risk level there is.
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JGPH1A
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 11):
But it's not about public relations. The US military has a duty of care to all its employees to ensure their personal safety. If they don't warn personel against travel to London and there was (heaven forbid) another attack, imagine the backlash?

So how come it is then that they are the ONLY US employer to make this recommendation ? Are you aware of any other company, US based or otherwise, that has place a blanket ban on travel to London for its employees ?

This is spineless paranoia at its worst, and someone should be fired for this. I'm sure the US armed forces personnel affected are as shocked and embarrassed by this as anyone.
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MD-90
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:05 pm

We shouldn't have any military bases in Britain anyway. What, they can't protect their own nation?
 
gkirk
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:08 pm

I suppose it kind of shows that theUS might be afraid. Look at normal Londoners, back to work, and life is back to normal. The Yanks ban themselves from going in. If the Londoners can get back to normal life quickly, why can't the Yanks?
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QANTASforever
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:16 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
This publicly announces that it has. It publicly says the terrorists have succeeded.

I don't agree with that. Going by such logic we could say that the war on terror is provoking the kind of reaction the terrorists crave.

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
You cannot say that banning them from entering London is an appropriate response given the very low risk level there is.

Indeed. But if they want to do it - then let them. I really don't understand why everyone is getting so emotional about it?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
So how come it is then that they are the ONLY US employer to make this recommendation ?

It's up to each business, government or organisation to issue their own orders. I respect the logic of the US government. Better to be cautious than even slightly risky. The US has a habit of issuing warnings in reaction to even the mildest of threats. Fine by me.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
This is spineless paranoia at its worst, and someone should be fired for this. I'm sure the US armed forces personnel affected are as shocked and embarrassed by this as anyone.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Don't be offended by what the US government has done - it's not a snub on the UK, they're simply acting according to their own duty of care. Don't worry about it - nobody really thinks London is unsafe.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 14):
We shouldn't have any military bases in Britain anyway. What, they can't protect their own nation?

Stop and think - do you not see strategic benefits?

QFF
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L410Turbolet
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Going by such logic we could say that the war on terror is provoking the kind of reaction the terrorists crave.

Is it not? This case is a perfect example of overreaction.
On the other hand I really admire the people of London how they managed to get back to normal and did not let the terrorists derail their lives.
 
Banco
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
This publicly announces that it has. It publicly says the terrorists have succeeded.

I don't agree with that. Going by such logic we could say that the war on terror is provoking the kind of reaction the terrorists crave.

Not like you to be politically naiive, QFF. You know the score, the US is leading "the war on terror", for better or worse, then comes out with this. That's the problem.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Indeed. But if they want to do it - then let them. I really don't understand why everyone is getting so emotional about it?

Oh, sure. But I don't think people are emotional about it. There'll be a few rolled eyes, but I suspect the real damage will be back in the US, not here. It looks a bit poor for them to react like that when London just carries on as normal, especially after all the usual "shoulder-to-shoulder" crap that politicans the world over spout.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:45 pm

Back in 1940, American ambassador Kennedy (father of John F.) urged American citizens to leave Britain. Now Kennedy was first very isolationist and was afraid that if Americans got hurt in German air raids or an invasion, the US would get pulled into the war, and being Boston Irish, he was not very Britain friendly.
But the amazing result of his call was that Americans resident in Britain joined the British homeguard en masse, mostly bringing even their own weapons with them, some of them even joined the regular British forces (yes, there were about 10 Americans who fought and got killed during the Battle of Britain, flying Hurricanes and Spitfires as airmen of the RAF).

Jan
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cornish
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Whilst I don't doubt the decision was taken with the best of intentions, it's not just a PR disaster, it's incredibly stupid. Are the US military banned from going to downtown Detroit as well?

Absoutely - its a PR diasaster for the US, and a PR victory for the terrorists.

Might I add, did they ban their servicemen from going to NYC, flying from BOS or JFK airports or on AA or UA after 9/11? Of course not. Where's the difference.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
QANTASforever
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:56 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
Going by such logic we could say that the war on terror is provoking the kind of reaction the terrorists crave.

Is it not? This case is a perfect example of overreaction.

No - it is not. I don't think the war on terror is an overreaction - I think at the moment it is an underreaction.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
On the other hand I really admire the people of London how they managed to get back to normal and did not let the terrorists derail their lives.

I completely agree. They are to be commended.

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
Not like you to be politically naiive, QFF. You know the score, the US is leading "the war on terror", for better or worse, then comes out with this. That's the problem.

US foreign policy is riddled with double standards, I know that. But overall I don't see a problem with them doing this. This is an operational issue, and not an emotional one. They're not doing this out of fear, but rather out of a lack of hard intelligence that would warrant a return to normal operations. If they want to do this - let them. Britain has bigger fish to fry.

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
Oh, sure. But I don't think people are emotional about it. There'll be a few rolled eyes, but I suspect the real damage will be back in the US, not here.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I think the UK is making this a bigger issue than the US. Add to this a genuine fear for the safety of personel operating internationally amongst the US general population - and you have all the makings of a non-story.

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
It looks a bit poor for them to react like that when London just carries on as normal, especially after all the usual "shoulder-to-shoulder" crap that politicans the world over spout.

It's not quid pro quo - it's security. Those who see this as a snub or a sign of cowardice need a cold shower.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
MD-90
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
top and think - do you not see strategic benefits?

I was being sarcastic. I see strategic imperial benefits for the American Empire, not benefits for Americans. Or Britons.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
I suppose it kind of shows that theUS might be afraid. Look at normal Londoners, back to work, and life is back to normal. The Yanks ban themselves from going in.

Look at the sniveling cowards in D.C., reduced to spineless terror from a Cessna (ja, I'm overexaggerating, but you get my point).
 
Banco
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 21):
Those who see this as a snub or a sign of cowardice need a cold shower.

As far as I can see, no-one here has said any such thing.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
flyboy36y
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:29 pm

To quote martin lawrence:

"what da problem is?"
 
ltbewr
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:44 pm

Apparently this order is being recinded due to the publicity of it in the press in London. There is concern that is will discourage tourism to London by all Americans, hurt the image of the USA in the UK, and not be good for moral of the soldiers themselves. I would suggest that there will be guidelines to those military people whom travel to London in the near future that unless on official military business, will be asked to dress in civilian clothes, not wear any items with references to their military involvement. This would be to not only to make them less of a target of potential terrorists, but to not be a target of anti-military and anti-war people. There are major USA military facilities in the UK, including major air bases.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting PROSA (Thread starter):
disgraceful

-
whether "disgraceful" I do not know, BUT it is virtually supporting the terrorists by giving them the feeling to be successful. At least somebody who is frightened and impressed and kept off normal tracks !
-
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:13 pm

I just think it's a mild over-reaction considering it is 5 days since the bombing. London is safe as it was on Wednesday afternoon, and paranoia isn't really going to help anyone. London is a big and daunting city with 8 million inhabitants, the chances of you getting caught up in a terrorist attack is ridiculously small.

Relax and enjoy the place, cos there's only one London!
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whitehatter
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Ti

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 14):
We shouldn't have any military bases in Britain anyway. What, they can't protect their own nation?

No. We still live in mud huts and throw turds at our enemies.

We lease British bases to American services, to be used as staging posts and strategic locations. Not only in Britain but elsewhere in the world. Diego Garcia is another example of a USAF base on British territory, along with some mid-Atlantic assets.

Anyway this directive has been explained on the TV news as being SOP, and was issued LAST WEEK just after the attacks when there was the possibility of more. It has not been rescinded as yet, which is a bad PR move.

Move along folks....no story worth arguing about....
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:24 pm

Let me add this to my original post, this thread . . .

Having read thru this thread throughout the night I appears this has created quite a shit storm in the UK.

All I ask is to remember one thing ladies and gents . . .

Do NOT blame the individual soldier or airman when they are again allowed to visit their friends in the UK. I'm quite sure they are just as unhappy about this as you obviously are. Want to blame someone, blame their commanders. It's not fair to them to shat upon because of decisions out of their control.
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Jalto27R
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
So how come it is then that they are the ONLY US employer to make this recommendation ? Are you aware of any other company, US based or otherwise, that has place a blanket ban on travel to London for its employees ?

This is a very common thing done with the military when there is a current hot spot they don't want US personnel or diplomats getting into. It's a simple matter of saftey for their personnel, nothing else. The terrorists didn't win, that's complete BS. These are temporary things until things completely stabilize in London. Intelligence is probably off the hook in London right now, and the last thing the US needs is for its personnel to be killed doing such common things as touring.

Mike
 
GDB
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:09 am

It has been rescinded, (after all the bad PR).

OK, fair enough last Thursday, when you could barely move around London, and workers stranded there were trying to get home.
But to carry it on until today?
London was getting back to normal 24 hrs after the bombs, as I saw myself Friday evening.

The reason I posted the link above about the huge WW2 remembrance event on Sunday, is that as this event involved a large fly-past of vintage aircraft, (including many US types), so it is reasonable to assume that USAF personnel would have been keen to go and see it, must be a fair few aviation buffs amongst them after all.
And they should have been allowed to.
If 500,000 people and most of the UK establishment thought it safe to.
There was a US presence however, actor and Vietnam Vet Brian Dennehy (SP?) was part of it, he read out one of Eishenhower's speeches.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 28):
no story worth arguing about...

-
are you sure ?? I always understood that "typical" (whomever that may be) US-Americans do not understand Arabs and the Arab World, but I have never in 30 years learnt to understand that US-Americans do NOT understand the Brits ! Suppose it has to do with the famous saying that "the only thing separating the two countries is the common language" !
-
-
And are you sure that they do NOT believe that you Brits live in mudhouses and therefore need some "aid" ?
-
-
:D big grin
 
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scbriml
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 31):
It has been rescinded

Door closed? Horse bolted? Check!
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prosa
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 25):
Apparently this order is being recinded due to the publicity of it in the press in London.

Very good news.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
whitehatter
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 32):
are you sure ?? I always understood that "typical" (whomever that may be) US-Americans do not understand Arabs and the Arab World, but I have never in 30 years learnt to understand that US-Americans do NOT understand the Brits ! Suppose it has to do with the famous saying that "the only thing separating the two countries is the common language" !

What are you rambling on about?

I was talking about the directive being a non-issue. It was SOP, but left in place rather than withdrawn. So no problem, it's been cancelled.

It is no different to the diplomatic services being told at various times to avoid certain airlines. I really can't see what all the fuss is about. No slight was intended.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
soyuzavia
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:57 am

It is no different to the diplomatic services being told at various times to avoid certain airlines. I really can't see what all the fuss is about. No slight was intended.

You mean like the US State department who issued, and still have, a warning for all US government employees to avoid Ural Airlines due to "safety" problems -- all that happened was a charter flight from Turkey to Russia was delayed, and the passengers, including one US diplomatic worker based in Russia, were transferred to another airline. The consulate worker was pissed and did it as 'revenge'. The State Department is aware of this fact, and yet the warning still remains. Ural is one of the safest airlines around.

There is being cautious, over-zealous and utter fucking ridiculous. The Ural case falls into the last category. The subject at hand would fall into the second.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:36 am

Why complaining? That's the "brave" US soldier. Helping British friends, make them feel as if London is Little Bagdad.
ANCflyer, you may find it ok, for me they are (sorry to say that) cowards.
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AGM114L
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:55 am

Cowards?!?! Yes the US military well run headlong into Fallujah, but London is much too dangerous. The restriction forbidding US Airmen to go into London probably stemmed from some micro-managing Air Force colonel thinking, "Explosions in London....I need to do something....I got it, lets not let anyone go there"

I don't want to take away from the gravity of the situation..... But Londoners actually want a bunch of US Airmen wondering around town? How are the airmen supposed to support London? I'm sure their hearts go out to the victims and their families.
My Boeing can blow up your Boeing
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 35):
rambling on about

-- why so excited ? I was NOT rambling --- but agree that the matter has become a NON-issue --- while a real issue it clearly WAS .
-
And, no, of course, few Londoners were eager to see some US-airmen "wandering around town" and there was nothing for them "to support London". The symbolic point was that the US military command ever gave out such an "order". I suppose that people of US Air Force and US Navy know their business well enough NOT to "wander" around KingsCross at such a moment, so that this order was un-necessary and lacked sensitivity. I know you Brits well enough to know that you take it the cool way, BUT the "signal" sent out by the US Command , THIS is a problem. SUCH things are triumphantly shown around in some specific circles. As it, to repeat it, gave those responsible in the background, the feeling that somebody at least WAS impressed by the matter.
 
MD-90
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RE: US Military "supports" London In These Hard Times

Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:26 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
And are you sure that they do NOT believe that you Brits live in mudhouses and therefore need some "aid" ?

Sometimes I wonder about some of those Scots...

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