BMIFlyer
Topic Author
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"Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:51 am

Sorry but i've had this on my question mind for a while now.

The term "Jihad" means 'Holy War' right??

What is holy about blowing innocent people to pieces??

How can the people who use this term justify it as an excuse for their cause?


Any comments welcome.


Lee

[Edited 2005-07-14 02:55:13]
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
dtwclipper
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RE: "Jihad" - Anyone Care To Explain?

Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:53 am

Radical muslems will site passages in the Koran where as anyone who insults the name of Allah is subject to death, at least the way I understand it.
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squared
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):

The term "Jihad" means 'Holy War' right??

I believe it's technically a struggle. Thus one can have an internal "jihad" to rid oneself of sinful habit. It's a very broad term, that is misued quite frequently (obviously).

SQuared
 
B744F
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:09 am

It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.
 
jacobin777
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):

The term "Jihad" means 'Holy War' right??

actually not..the real meaning of the word "jihad" is to "struggle"...actually, it means "personal struggle"..

the personal struggles one has from society (i.e. society pressures-drugs, sex, alcohol (which is forbidden in Islam), or from self...such as not backbiting of others, not doing one's 5 daily prayers, not fasting, not giving to charity, not being a good neighbor, etc.


the purpose of "jihad" actually is to increase one's awareness of God and to increase one's faith..

the part of "holy war" comes when one Muslim has to fight for his/her/their familiy/community survival....especially when there is oppression...in Islam, one has a right to fight for their home, dignity, ect...

and its called "holy war" because according to Islamic Jurisprudence, everything is done in and for the name of God..hence "holy".......one lives, struggles, dies only for the cause of God.

"jihad" can be done on Islamic govts. too if they are oppressing their people...

unfortunately, the religious zealots and extremists use this to their own means and justifications..

now the vast majority of Muslims believe that the 9/11 attackers or the 7/7 London bombers weren't Jihadists but terrorists because they attacked a group of people who weren't oppressing any Muslims directly..however, though many Muslims will condemn what the suicide bombers are doing in Israel, many don't because many see that the Palestinians are being oppressed by others and that their life, diginity, etc are being taken away, hence they have the right to defend themselves, even if it means death for them...

its been taken well out of context recently (and abused), which is a shame..

hope that clears it up a little..

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.

what an ignorant and blind statement...

[Edited 2005-07-14 03:12:59]

[Edited 2005-07-14 03:13:48]

[Edited 2005-07-14 03:14:11]
"Up the Irons!"
 
erikwilliam
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.

If you continue this line of thinking, I guess the US Military will be a bit upset with you....
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DfwRevolution
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:35 am

>> It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.

Hmm... sort of like Christianity?
 
N1120A
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):
The term "Jihad" means 'Holy War' right??

No. In its war-like context, it means a war against religious persecution and is only to be used in self defense

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Radical muslems will site passages in the Koran where as anyone who insults the name of Allah is subject to death, at least the way I understand it.

And they are completely wrong.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
>> It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.

Hmm... sort of like Christianity?

Exactly Rev, exactly
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ACAfan
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:12 am

According to my Google search, the bombers are not following the Islamic rules of Jihad:

*******************************************

ISLAMIC RULES OF WARFARE

Per the rules of War & Islam, the following has been
prohibited by Prophet Muhammad more than 1400 years ago:

1. Killing traders, merchants, contractors and the like, they are to be
spared if they do not take part in actual fighting

2. Killing non Combatants

3. Combatants are only those who are physically capable of fighting

4. Killing women, minors, servants, and slaves who accompany their masters yet do not take part in actual fighting, the blind, monks, hermits, the very old, those physically incapable of fighting, the insane or delirious

5. Killing peasants when they do not fight and the result of war is
indifferent on them

And Allah the Almighty states in the Quran:
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do NOT transgress
limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors" [Surah al Baqara (2): 190]

the Prophet said:
"Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat
you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you will do
wrong; but accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not
to do wrong if they do evil." [Tirmidhi 5129]

************************************************

http://www.lists.lightbearer.com/immortal-ic-l/2001/09/msg00004.html

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7848
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AR1300
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 8):

So how come we had a fanatic Islamic state, as the former Afghanistan???
Fanatic means they they are ''overreligeous'', that they do more than the average Muhamed Ismail do, but still doesn't follow a basic Koran line???isn't it kinda screwed up??? How they had support??I mean all those muslim leaders didn't realize???
If the Pope starts doing things that are ''very unchristian'', the whole world will notice.So what gives??? 1 billion guys didn't realize nor said something??


Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
ACAfan
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 9):
So how come we had a fanatic Islamic state, as the former Afghanistan???

Fanatics who say they are Muslim, yes.
Islamic fanatic, who am I to say?

When making my judgements, I go to the source. In judging whether something is Islamic or not, I compare it to what Islam's book says and the examples of Islam's prophet.

I listed the Islamic rules of war in my post above. If you click on the link, there are references which you or me could look up.

My point was, whatever the Muslims are doing nowadays, it is just not there in the old texts.

I have no idea where they get their ideas though. When I meet a terrorist I will ask him why they are killing us and start a thread with their answer.

******************************************************

Here are some rules of war from the Bible:

Deuteronomy 20:19: When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an ax against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege.

[Agent Orange usage in Viet Nam is therefore antichristian]

Here are some more rules of war from the Bible:

Deuteronomy 23:12-13:
12 You shall have a place also outside the camp to which you shall go (as a comfort station); 13 and you shall have a paddle or shovel among your weapons, and when you sit down outside (to relieve yourself), you shall dig a hole with it, and turn back and cover up what has come from you.

Deuteronomy 20:10-12:
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it.

Deuteronomy 20:1-4:
1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
2 And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people,
3 And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;
4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

http://www.bible.com/answers/awar.html
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Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:44 pm

Hmm... sort of like Christianity?

No not at all. To make a statement like that and get away with that shows how hypocritical our society has become. It's totally PC to attack Christianity but should you attack Islam - you're a fascist, racist,nazi,extremist, etc....

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
>> It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.

Hmm... sort of like Christianity?

Exactly Rev, exactly


Also like the Muslims in your native Iran N1120A. And from now on maybe you should speak on behalf of Islam and Muslims only, and leave Christianity for Christians. After all you're benefitting from largely Christian society - if you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Tehran.

Maybe you should also brush up on Islamic history - you've seen to forgotten all the history and facts regarding the spread of your religion. In case you have, go back to the other two threads where we had a debate on that.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:51 pm

There are TWO "levels" of Jihad :
-
A) the "lesser Jihad" is to fight in defence of other Muslims under attack
B) the "higher Jihad" is your effort to improve yourself
-
the "lesser Jihad" of course includes the danger that you lose your life
-
it has nothing to do with extremist notions
-
-
***********************************************************
 
jacobin777
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 9):
So how come we had a fanatic Islamic state, as the former Afghanistan???

its a shame...many were propped/supported by the United States itself...now this administration wants "democracy"  sarcastic 

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 9):
doesn't follow a basic Koran line???isn't it kinda screwed up??? How they had support??I mean all those muslim leaders didn't realize???

unfortunatley, radicalism and extremists use religion for their ways and means....no matter of what faith..... Sad

Quoting Marco (Reply 11):
Also like the Muslims in your native Iran N1120A. And from now on maybe you should speak on behalf of Islam and Muslims only, and leave Christianity for Christians. After all you're benefitting from largely Christian society - if you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Tehran.

what a dumb and ignorant comment that was (  butthead  )^3..at least we know what your petty little brain thinks.... rotfl 
"Up the Irons!"
 
FOMEA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:25 am

Marco,
Are you From Iraq?
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:29 am

what a dumb and ignorant comment that was ( )^3..at least we know what your petty little brain thinks....

I won't dignify your insults with another round of insults. Apparently, you are not aware of the exchange that was going on between N1120A and I for the past couple of weeks. Maybe you should do a search, and learn about the situation more before you make comments that could embarrass yourself.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:32 am

FOMEA - Yes I am. Where Christians and Muslims get along and respect each other, (or at least they used to before Bush went in). Unlike a neighboring country ...
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qr332
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Thread starter):
What is holy about blowing innocent people to pieces??

How can the people who use this term justify it as an excuse for their cause?

Jihad is probably one of the most abused Arabic words today. A Jihad is not about slaying the innocent, or blowing things up. Jihad means "Holy Struggle", and it is a word that was used frequently by the Prophet and in the Quran. It used to mean wars where the Muslims defended themselves, and the rules of Jihad are that no non-combatants can be killed, that women and children cannot be harmed, and personal property cannot be destroyed without reason. In today's twisted world, Muslim terrorists are brainwashed by their "leaders" (and by this I do not mean Imams or the leaders of countries, I mean those who run terrorist organisations) to believe that all Westerners are enemies of God, and thus it is justifiable to kill them. This, of course, is complete bullshit, and the term "Jihad" is just used so that they can carry out their own agenda.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Radical muslems will site passages in the Koran where as anyone who insults the name of Allah is subject to death, at least the way I understand it.

I can take things out of context from anywhere and make things seem true, but that does not mean that it is the message of the Quran. The Quran clearly states that Allah does not like aggressors, and it clearly states that those who do not believe in God will be punished in Hell, and that it is not our place to punish them (unless they have literally attacked Muslims in some way or another). But, even then, the rules of Jihad apply and it is only justified to attack non-civilians.

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
It's something catchy to get poor people to pretend like their life means something, and to distract them from how bad their leaders treat and exploit them.

The term has been around for over 1,400 years, and is in the Quran. It has nothing to do with life meaning anything or their leaders. Ignorance will not get you anywhere.

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 9):
So how come we had a fanatic Islamic state, as the former Afghanistan???
Fanatic means they they are ''overreligeous'', that they do more than the average Muhamed Ismail do, but still doesn't follow a basic Koran line???isn't it kinda screwed up??? How they had support??I mean all those muslim leaders didn't realize???
If the Pope starts doing things that are ''very unchristian'', the whole world will notice.So what gives??? 1 billion guys didn't realize nor said something??

Because Islam is a religion which has been greatly abused. The message of the Quran is that all humans are equal (men and women, all races, etc), but over time, the message has been twisted to suit some leaders' agendas. The Quran is just like poetry; there are several ways to interprate (?sp) the text. In Afghanistan, they used the most fanatic Wahabbi interpritations, thus creating a state for men which did not even follow Islam's true message.

It has nothing to do with not realising - sadly, its not caring. People notice, but they think "its just Afghanistan, why should we dirty our hands with its problems?" Sadly, it is an ideology most people in the world have. Is it fair? No, but then again, neither are most things in life. They did not have support of other countries, the fellow Muslim countries were just neutral with them, just as most of the world was pre-9/11.

Terrorists, on the other hand, are under attack by most ordinary Muslims today, and they are becoming increasingly hated because of the bad name they are giving our religion.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
FOMEA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:36 am

Thanks Marco,
Met a lady once through work she was Assyrian..but wasnt sure if she was from iraq or not.
Here is another Question?
Are Assyrian and Chaldeans close?
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
qr332
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 11):
Also like the Muslims in your native Iran N1120A. And from now on maybe you should speak on behalf of Islam and Muslims only, and leave Christianity for Christians. After all you're benefitting from largely Christian society - if you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Tehran.

Maybe you should also brush up on Islamic history - you've seen to forgotten all the history and facts regarding the spread of your religion. In case you have, go back to the other two threads where we had a debate on that.

Still on the high horse, Marco? I respect that your Christian, there is no need to attack my religion because one person made a comment about yours. I still stick by what I said before - you are one hell of a bitter person. You think you know anything about Islamic history? Please...

[Edited 2005-07-15 18:44:08]
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:47 am

Well you're in Detroit so it's no surprise that you've met Assyrians/Chaldeans!

Assyrians can be from Iran/Iraq/Syria/Lebanon/Turkey. Most are in Iraq and Syria though (altogether maybe 1.5M). Most have left Iran though and there's probably only 10,000 left because Iran is extremely uncomfortable for minorities (Christians, Zoroastrians, Bahaii). In fact in some places in Iran Christians are considered unclean and even at the fruits/vegetables market they won't sell them anything. If in doubt, try wikipedia's online encyclopedia. Assyrians in Iraq were very comfortable, despite a few restrictions on the language but we had full religious freedom and were never persecuted by Saddam. However, now that we have democratically elected terrorists, err ministers, (prime minister Jaffari and his gang), everyone and not just Christians are going through a rough time. By the way the Dawaa party that's in power now was a terrorist group in Iraq in the 80s. Our current prime minister was responsible for bombing university campuses in Baghdad  Yeah sure

Anyway I digress - Assyrians and Chaldeans are pretty much the same people. I cannot give you a really accurate answer on this one, but what I can say is that the major difference is that Chaldeans are Catholic and we Assyrians follow an older Orthodox church (Nestorian church of the east). Feel free to check out the following websites:

http://www.nineveh.com
http://www.betnahrain.org/
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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 14):
I won't dignify your insults with another round of insults.

you already have made enough insults, which just makes you a hypocrite.... sarcastic 

Quoting Marco (Reply 15):
Maybe you should do a search, and learn about the situation more before you make comments that could embarrass yourself.

i've already read enough of your anti-islamic vitriol to make a judgement about you

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
ost abused Arabic words today. A Jihad is not about slaying the innocent, or blowing things up. Jihad means "Holy Struggle", and it is a word that was used frequently by the Prophet and in the Quran. It used to mean wars where the Muslims defended themselves, and the rules of Jihad are that no non-combatants can be killed, that women and children cannot be harmed, and personal property cannot be destroyed without reason. In today's twisted world, Muslim terrorists are brainwashed by their "leaders" (and by this I do not mean Imams or the leaders of countries, I mean those who run terrorist organisations) to believe that all Westerners are enemies of God, and thus it is justifiable to kill them. This, of course, is complete bullshit, and the term "Jihad" is just used so that they can carry out their own agenda.

salaam dude..I've tried to post above as to what "jihad" means...what do you think? (it was reply 4)

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
can take things out of context from anywhere and make things seem true, but that does not mean that it is the message of the Quran. The Quran clearly states that Allah does not like aggressors, and it clearly states that those who do not believe in God will be punished in Hell, and that it is not our place to punish them (unless they have literally attacked Muslims in some way or another). But, even then, the rules of Jihad apply and it is only justified to attack non-civilians.

agree..its very easy to take the bible and torah out of text/context..but does that mean the bible and torah promote violence? no....niether does the Quran,yet people in this day in age feel like its "cool" to bash Islam (unfortunately, these retards aren't helping our cause) and the media just oooze over it....

its a shame, but I think people just dont' want to listen and/or learn the truth...

people prefer to listen to the so-called "experts" of Islam like Danial Pipes (i'm not going to issue a comment about him) et al



WA
"Up the Irons!"
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:53 am

Still on the high horse, Marco? I respect that your Christian, there is no need to attack my religion because one person made a comment about yours. I still stick by what I said before - you are one hell of a bitter person. You think you know anything about Islamic history? Please...

I do know a thing or two about Islamic history. I certainly don't know everything, but the history that I do know is different from the history that the Arab world is brianwashed into believing.

By the way I respect the fact that you're Muslim, and my intention is not to demonize your religion. However, when a half Iranian N1120A attacks my religion, I do think it is appropriate to remind him of what his own religion has done.

Please visit reply 84 of this thread: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/865100/
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:57 am

you already have made enough insults, which just makes you a hypocrite....

Facts and insults are different. And hiding behind a computer screen and throwing insults around means nothing.

Quoting Marco (Reply 15):
Maybe you should do a search, and learn about the situation more before you make comments that could embarrass yourself.

i've already read enough of your anti-islamic vitriol to make a judgement about you


And that's the problem with the Islamic world. Denial of a part of the past which was brutal. Denial of the homogenization of the conquered middle east. Denial, denial, denial. Anyone who dares and criticizes Islamic history is anti-Islam, racist and so on. Facts are facts, and they cannot by changed by emotional individuals ...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
FOMEA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:57 am

Thanks Marco..really Appreciate it.
Yes there is a big Community here. I was just curious Thou.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
Quoting FOMEA (Reply 14):
I won't dignify your insults with another round of insults.

you already have made enough insults, which just makes you a hypocrite....

How did i get involved?  innocent 
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
By the way I respect the fact that you're Muslim, and my intention is not to demonize your religion.

really? once again, you have shown your hypocricy by stating that "my intention is not to demonize your religion", yet you have made more than enough anti-Islamic vitriol......

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
Facts and insults are different. And hiding behind a computer screen and throwing insults around means nothing.

I support my so-callled "insults" by quoting your asinine comments.......

also,what does this have to do with "hiding behind a computer screen"........this isn't television-world....the computer is our medium of convesation, and I fail to see what your definition of "hiding" is..????

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
And that's the problem with the Islamic world. Denial of a part of the past which was brutal. Denial of the homogenization of the conquered middle east. Denial, denial, denial. Anyone who dares and criticizes Islamic history is anti-Islam, racist and so on. Facts are facts, and they cannot by changed by emotional individuals ...

and once again, your comment about "not demonizing your religion" and then saying "that's the problem with the Islamic world.Denial"..shows your hypocrisy...have you taken a survey of 600 million people? you would need to, otherwise you don't a clue of what the majority of Muslims are thinking......in fact, contrary to your "Islamic world" thinking, I know many people who believe that many people throught history have used ALL religions (including Islam) for their own ways and means....

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
You think you know anything about Islamic history? Please...

my thoughts exactly..

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 24):
How did i get involved?

bit strange how that happened, as I was sure I quoted the other person..anyway, since I erred, I apologise...  Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:53 am

really? once again, you have shown your hypocricy by stating that "my intention is not to demonize your religion", yet you have made more than enough anti-Islamic vitriol......

Show me the anti-Islamic vitriol. And quit with the insults, it really belittles your (already weak) argument.

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
Facts and insults are different. And hiding behind a computer screen and throwing insults around means nothing.

I support my so-callled "insults" by quoting your asinine comments.......

also,what does this have to do with "hiding behind a computer screen"........this isn't television-world....the computer is our medium of convesation, and I fail to see what your definition of "hiding" is..????


Let's just say that this conversation would be different, if it were face to face. Sitting behind the computer makes it easier for people like yourself to throw around insults.

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
And that's the problem with the Islamic world. Denial of a part of the past which was brutal. Denial of the homogenization of the conquered middle east. Denial, denial, denial. Anyone who dares and criticizes Islamic history is anti-Islam, racist and so on. Facts are facts, and they cannot by changed by emotional individuals ...

and once again, your comment about "not demonizing your religion" and then saying "that's the problem with the Islamic world.Denial"..shows your hypocrisy...


Religion and the people are two different things. Stop over-reacting. It shows your lack of understanding.

have you taken a survey of 600 million people? you would need to, otherwise you don't a clue of what the majority of Muslims are thinking......in fact, contrary to your "Islamic world" thinking, I know many people who believe that many people throught history have used ALL religions (including Islam) for their own ways and means....

The Muslim world is led to belive that Islamic conquests and history is one big rosy affair. Having lived and grown up in the middle east, I can say that from experience. Your posts also prove my point.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
You think you know anything about Islamic history? Please...

my thoughts exactly..


Read reply 84 from the other thread and maybe you too can learn more about your history. Read it first then reply (and remember to breathe deeply).
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
flyAUA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Radical muslems

Jihad has nothing to do with muslims. It is not related to religion, but to a culture. A culture of fanatic extremists that believe they are getting their revenge on people who have supressed them, or done them harm.

So please don't try to label these people as radical muslims. Radical muslims are those that follow rules of the Koran and traditions of the prophet strictly. Killing people is part of neither, and is comdemned by any true muslim.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 8):
According to my Google search, the bombers are not following the Islamic rules of Jihad:

Exactly, which is why they cannot be ISLAMIC. These people are going to hell and there is no place for them in heaven just because of a so-called "holy war" (muslim, christian, buddhist, or whatever)... that is of course if you believe in heaven and hell.

It's only the media which loves to link the two together, but in real life, jihad and islam are not related!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
AR1300
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
thus creating a state for men which did not even follow Islam's true message.

So it's kinda a ''reform Islam''.It's good to hear that true islamism is not what this people show.
What about that ''Stabbing the infidels heart with Allah's sword'' thing???
what's the real meaning?

Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
flyAUA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 28):
So it's kinda a ''reform Islam''

No it has nothing to do with Islam... FULLSTOP! It is people who twist words to create their own rules and give true muslims a bad name.

Jacobin777 and QR33 have put forward very reasonable, ubiased and correct answers to what Jihad really is. If you read that you'll understand!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
to check out the following websites:

http://www.nineveh.com
http://www.betnahrain.org/

-> Thanks, quite interesting

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
now that we have democratically elected terrorists

-> a very nice one !

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
everyone and not just Christians are going through a rough time

-> if I understand you correctly, you in here confirm what I heard from other, Muslim, Iraqis, that fundamentalist notions are promoted by the present prime minister and his cabinet, and that personal freedom rather is reduced instead of improved ?

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
Our current prime minister was responsible for bombing university campuses in Baghdad Yeah sure

-> heard that before --- was a bit shocked anyway that such a conservative extremist got appointed prime-minister

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
a half Iranian N1120A attacks my religion, I do think it is appropriate to remind him of what his own religion has done.

-> the religion has NOT done anything, only some people who happen(ed) to be Muslims --- it is NOT a hairsplitting exercise, THIS is reality
 
jacobin777
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):
Show me the anti-Islamic vitriol. And quit with the insults, it really belittles your (already weak) argument.

you call it "fact", I call it vitriol (regarding one's view of Islamic history)...it depends on one's point of view....

Quoting Marco (Reply 11):
After all you're benefitting from largely Christian society - if you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Tehran.

and care to explain what that is??  sarcastic 

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):
Let's just say that this conversation would be different, if it were face to face. Sitting behind the computer makes it easier for people like yourself to throw around insults.

and what shoud I expect from you if we were face to face? Anything in particular??

if this was television-land debate, I would be more than happy to debate you anyway...

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):
Religion and the people are two different things. Stop over-reacting. It shows your lack of understanding.

care to explain?? the people can be of any descent, nationality, geographical location,etc...however the one thing which forms a bond and guides all (well the vast majority) of us Muslims is Islam....are there a few crackpots here and there? sure there are..just like there are crackpots of all majour religions...doesn't make any of the other relgions bad....

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):

The Muslim world is led to belive that Islamic conquests and history is one big rosy affair. Having lived and grown up in the middle east, I can say that from experience. Your posts also prove my point.

and from the previous thread which you referenced above....

Quoting Marco (Reply 63):
Considering they spread across the whole middle east and north africa by forced conversions (even though Muslims will tell you it's not so, but history isn't biased), whole tribes were slaughtered to make Saudi Arabia Muslim only...I don't think your case has much defense. Every Islamic country has wiped out its previous culture and replaced it with an Islamic/Arabic culture (North Africa, the Middle East, Iran).

attempting to contort the truth by your arguments doesn't change what the truth of the matter is....most assimilated their culture into Islam..hence, as MD11Engineer stated in a previous post that the Muslims of Saudi Arabia are different than the Muslims in Nigeria.....yet the common linkage between them is Islam.....not culture.....

maybe your getting culture and religion mixed up....

..and your comment shos your antipathy towards Muslims/Arabs

and has been stated by historical texts (and I would like you to find anywhere on A.net where I have said otherwise), there have been wars by all religions to a certain extent..but not the certainly not extent to which you bash the spread of Islam.

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):

..... Read it first then reply (and remember to breathe deeply).

thanks for the physiology/kinesiology lesson.... Wink

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 28):
So it's kinda a ''reform Islam''.It's good to hear that true islamism is not what this people show.
What about that ''Stabbing the infidels heart with Allah's sword'' thing???
what's the real meaning?

..its metaphorically speaking...not taken in a literal sense..of course, it can be twisted to be taken as a literal meaning...

ie. spread Islam through good works..charity, being good neighbors, piety, etc...and if a person who is non-muslim wants to inquire about Islam, show the person what Islam is about..and let THAT person decided if he/she wants to become a Muslim and convert to Islam..

its actually considered a sin in Islam to forcefully convert a person into Islam....many people dont know that important, yet unrecognised fact...

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 29):
Jacobin777 and QR33 have put forward very reasonable, ubiased and correct answers to what Jihad really is. If you read that you'll understand!

wow...we've actually agreed on some things (we've agreed on some other comments on other threads also-both av and non-av).... spin .....there is hope for us to have good conversations.... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
flyAUA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
wow...we've actually agreed on some things (we've agreed on some other comments on other threads also-both av and non-av).... .....there is hope for us to have good conversations....

Yes our disagreement in civ-av was a one-off according to my knowledge. If I was a bitch I apologise. I believe it was at the beginning of my quitting smoking campaign. LOL  Silly
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TheRedBaron
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:11 am

Jihad, is another trademark to separate "us" from "them, in one short sentence.

What do I care? Do I think all Iraqui people had WMD just because Gb said so NO
Do I think Iran is full of fundamentalists wackos NO.
Do I think the former Taliban Goverment was the worst on earth and had ALL the terrorists in it? NO
Do I think All the US Goverment is crooked NO
Do I think Germans are Disguized Nazis because they started WW2

95% of the people on thsi planet want to live a peaceful life, have a family or friends, have a rewarding job and be happy the other 5% duel on a power trip, poison our minds with this so called Jihad, cruzades, PC, Globalism, terrorism al all those "ISMS" to make us forget that our neighbour deep down wants the same happyness as you and I. THEY SEPARATE US and then we become stragers to them and they become strangers to US. Being this a Airlines forum a a lot of people fly ALL OVER the WORLD, tell me.... have you traveled to a distant land to be met a people who are "TAHT" much diferent to you DEEP DOWN?....they meybe have another religion, dress diferently, speak another languaje...but we are all the same...heck I hate this My religion is holier than yours threads, in the end is the SAME GOD

Peace TRB
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jacobin777
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 32):
Yes our disagreement in civ-av was a one-off according to my knowledge. If I was a bitch I apologise. I believe it was at the beginning of my quitting smoking campaign. LOL

good recall... Wink

ditto on the apologise...... thumbsup   chat 

better yet..hope you quit the smoking habit..i fully support you there.. weightlifter 
"Up the Irons!"
 
jacobin777
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:39 am

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...98-471B-4A36-8253-F2120BEA180F.htm

"Once again I watched the nauseous devastation and massacre, this time in the heart of my city, near the universities and libraries, where I have spent much of my adult life.

Madrid and Bali, Casablanca and Riyadh, I have come to predict al-Qaida's responsibility for a given criminal act through the following test. If I find myself at a loss for an answer to the questions: "Why the innocent?" and "For what purpose?", then, in all likelihood, the crime is of al-Qaida's doing.

The absurd, random mass carnage of young and old, male and female is its trademark. Residential buildings, tourist resorts, rush hour trains and crowded buses turn into grand spectacles of mass murder where no heed is paid to the victim's identity and the extent of his/her responsibility for the policies of a country defined as the enemy. The boundaries between the world of politics and that of organised crime are blurred, as political demands get wedded to criminal methods.

Al-Qaida, it must be said, is no pioneer in this field. For although it founds its ideology on religious references and speaks a language overwhelmed by religious symbols, al-Qaida falls largely within the modern tradition of revolutionary anarchists - from the Jacobins and the Bolsheviks down to latter-day Marxist guerrillas like the Baadr-Meinhoff Gang.

Destruction as a passion

Like these modern revolutionary nihilists, al-Qaida warriors subscribe to an instrumentalist logic that recognises no distinction between the legitimate and illegitimate, thereby sanctioning acts of terror for the attainment of their ends. Like them, they are more interested in the act of destruction than its effects. As the father of Russian anarchism Mikhail Bakunin put it, 'the passion for destruction is also a creative passion'.

Al-Qaida is also a revival of the radical currents that surfaced in Islamic history from time to time only to be defeated by moderate mainstream Islam led by the Ulama (scholars). In particular, they appear to be a continuation of Kharijite thought with its dualistic puritanical conception of the world and the community of Muslims and of Gnostic underground organisations like the Assassins and Qaramita, who sought to disrupt the stability of Muslim societies through acts of terrorism.

Al-Qaida would be best seen as a mixture of these political and ideological strands. Apart from the ideological justifications it takes recourse to, one would, indeed, be hard put to find much that distinguishes it from Latin American anarchist groups. Their acts share the same destructive ferocity, the same absurdity. The difference is that where one finds its ideological legitimacy in Marxism, the other seeks it in the Islamic religion.

Islam misinterpreted

How can the murder of the innocent be perpetuated in the name of a religion that likens the loss of one human life to the loss of humanity at large? How can Islam be said to sanction such acts of aggression when it openly forbids revenge and declares in no less than five Quranic chapters that: "No bearer of a burden bears the burden of another"?

How can the killing of ordinary men and women going about their business be permissible when even the battlefield has been regulated by the strictest moral code: "Destroy not fruit trees, nor fertile land in your paths. Be just, and spare the feelings of the vanquished. Respect all religious persons who live in hermitages or convents and spare their edifices"?

Perhaps the one thing al-Qaida militants have proven good at, apart from the shedding of innocent blood, is fanning the flames of hostility to Islam and Muslims. From the darkness of their caves and hiding places, these self-appointed spokesmen for about one and a half billion Muslims worldwide have excelled in stirring latent negative images of Islam within the Western psyche. Through their senseless crimes, Islam, in the minds of most, has become a euphemism for mass slaughter and destruction. Thanks to them, racism, bigotry and Islamophobia could rear its ugly head unashamedly in broad day light.

The terrible irony is that Muslims currently find themselves helplessly trapped between two fundamentalisms, between Bush's hammer and Bin Laden's anvil, hostages to an extreme right wing American administration, aggressively seeking to impose its expansionist and hegemonic will over the region at gunpoint, and to a cluster of violent, wild fringe groups, lacking in political experience or sound religious understanding.

'Us' and 'them'

Although the two claim to be combating each other, the reality is that they are working in unison, one providing the justifications the other desperately needs for its fanaticism, ferocity and savagery.

No wonder, it didn't take the neo-conservative world supremacists long to spot the immense opportunities 11 September handed them. Their puritanical missionary belief in being God's instruments on earth and grand imperial ambitions could now be realised through shameless emotional blackmail and bogus moral claims.

The two share a shallow, myopic, dualistic conception of the world populated by 'us' and 'them' in Bush's language, 'believers' and 'non-believers' in Bin Laden's. Al-Zarqawi and his fellows then brandish the sword of excommunication (takfir) against the Muslim body itself in an endless orgy of maiming and mutilation.

Some are to be expelled, because they are Shia, others because they are Sufis, or Mu'tazilites (rationalists) and so on in a perpetual elimination process that spares no one but a handful of puritan elects from its deadly reach.

The vast stock of common denominators is ignored, that which tears and divides is sought. These would rather see the world turn into an ever- raging battlefield, Muslim societies into blazing scenes of sectarian schism and civil war in a region rich in ethnic, religious, sectarian and linguistic diversity.

I daily use London's trains and buses and could have been one of Thursday bombings' victims. I hardly think that killing or maiming me would have aided the causes the bombers claim to defend. The truth is that these narrow-minded fanatics are a scourge to the causes they purport to champion.

Ask any Iraqi or Palestinian if the bombing of the innocent in Bali, Casablanca, or London has helped alleviate their suffering. If anything, they have handed their oppressors with an open permit to butcher and destroy, safe in the knowledge that blame has been shifted from them to their victims.

Just causes, unjust means

So, Sharon demolishes the homes of Palestinians, expropriates their lands and sends his helicopters to massacre them in their hundreds in the name of combating terrorism. Arab regimes stifle dissenting voices, imprison and assassinate in the name of resisting terrorism. American tanks and gunships invade, occupy, kill and rampage, all in the name of terrorism.

Al-Qaida's mindless acts have turned the aggressor, who colonises, massacres and pillages, into a victim. For all their material vulnerability, victims have a very powerful asset: their moral case as innocent victims. Perhaps, this is the cruellest dimension to these senseless crimes: That the powerless has been stripped even of his victimhood. Even this has been appropriated by the powerful.

The causes al-Qaida extremists speak for are certainly just causes. The sanctioning of genocide and occupation in Palestine, slaughter of hundreds of thousands in Iraq through exposure to depleted Uranium and years of barbaric sanctions first, then through bombing and shelling without bothering to count the dead, brutal invasion of the country, destruction of its infrastructure and humiliation of its people undoubtedly rank among modern history’s bloodiest crimes and darkest tragedies.

But the mindless killing of the innocent in Madrid, or New York is the wrong answer to these real grievances. These are illegitimate responses to legitimate causes. Just as occupation is morally and politically deplorable, so, too, is this blind aggression masquerading as Jihad.

Soumayya Ghannoushi is a researcher in the history of ideas at the School of Oriental & African Studies, University of London.

The opinions expressed here are the author's and do not necessarily reflect the editorial position or have the endorsement of Aljazeera."
"Up the Irons!"
 
Marco
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:12 pm

Jacobin777

Facts and history cannot be changed. So if you want to call it anti-Islamic vitriol, then so be it. If you also want to stay in a state of denial, then so be it. However, I'm not going to engage you in a tit-for-tat conversation. Future reference: try not to lose your call and resort to name calling when in a debate.

ME AV FAN:

I understand you correctly, you in here confirm what I heard from other, Muslim, Iraqis, that fundamentalist notions are promoted by the present prime minister and his cabinet, and that personal freedom rather is reduced instead of improved ?

Of course it is. Look at the laws they're drafting. It's becoming Iran#2. Iraq was once a largely middle class and secular nation - look at it now. Some liberation.

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
Our current prime minister was responsible for bombing university campuses in Baghdad Yeah sure

-> heard that before --- was a bit shocked anyway that such a conservative extremist got appointed prime-minister


Why are you shocked? Most sunni's didn't vote. Most of the shia that did vote were fanatical pro-clerical rule. The Kurds didn't allow the Assyrians and other Christians in the north to vote. The result: a fundamentalist shia prime minister.  Wink
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:06 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 11):
After all you're benefitting from largely Christian society -
if you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Tehran.

Forgot to say, about this comment - its very hypocritical, considering I could say the same about you being an Iraqi benifiting from a Western society. If you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Baghdad.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
salaam dude..I've tried to post above as to what "jihad" means...what do you think? (it was reply 4)

Thats a pretty good explenation as well - are you Muslim by the way?

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
I do know a thing or two about Islamic history. I certainly don't know everything, but the history that I do know is different from the history that the Arab world is brianwashed into believing.

Ah, so billions of people around the world are brainwashed, but Marco here is the one of the few enlightened ones who knows our history... please!

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
By the way I respect the fact that you're Muslim, and my intention is not to demonize your religion. However, when a half Iranian N1120A attacks my religion, I do think it is appropriate to remind him of what his own religion has done.

If you want to sit there talking about the pasts of religions, don't even go there. Christianity has a much bloodier history than the Muslims, and you know that as well as I do.

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
Please visit reply 84 of this thread: RE: Radical Christian Group Protests Soldier's Funeral (by Marco Jul 1 2005 in Non Aviation)

Ah, so pagan Arabia was better off than Muslim Arabia now? The wars the Muslims fought with the pagans and the Jews were in self defence - you conveniently left out the part of history about the Jewish atempt to assassinate the prophet Muhammed, and the Jews not helping the Muslims fight off the pagans whem Medina was attacked as the pact between the Jews and Muslims said they must do. Non-Muslims were most definatley not expelled, and it even says in the Quran that the followers of the books of God are considered equals. The messages of the Quran and of the prophet are against things such as presecution and genocide, and your history is inaccurate.

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
And that's the problem with the Islamic world. Denial of a part of the past which was brutal. Denial of the homogenization of the conquered middle east. Denial, denial, denial. Anyone who dares and criticizes Islamic history is anti-Islam, racist and so on. Facts are facts, and they cannot by changed by emotional individuals ...

You obviously don't know crap about Arabs then! Do you have any idea how much criticism there is towards how things are run today?

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):
The Muslim world is led to belive that Islamic conquests and history is one big rosy affair. Having lived and grown up in the middle east, I can say that from experience. Your posts also prove my point.

It is in no way one big rosy affair, there is bloodshed and violence in the history of Islam, but it is nowhere near how you are portraying it.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
AR1300
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:22 pm

RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
its actually considered a sin in Islam to forcefully convert a person into Islam

Didn't Mohammed forcefully convereted all the pagan ignorant beduins around the Arabia zone whem Islam just merged, after his prophecies????

Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 38):
Didn't Mohammed forcefully convereted all the pagan ignorant beduins around the Arabia zone whem Islam just merged, after his prophecies????

No, he and the Muslims were presecuted, and many of his followers in Mecca were killed by the pagans. This is why the hijra took place to Medina: they couldn't stay in Mecca because the pagans attacked Muslims in every way possible. After that, all the wars fought between the Muslims and pagans, and the Muslim domination of all pagan lands was to ensure Islam's survival and to take the lands of the pagans, who were the biggest threat to the Muslims; it was all justified. Nobody was forcefully converted by Mohammed, and nobody was attacked by the Muslism without a good reason.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:49 am

And that's the problem with the Islamic world. Denial of a part of the past which was brutal. Denial of the homogenization of the conquered middle east. Denial, denial, denial. Anyone who dares and criticizes Islamic history is anti-Islam, racist and so on. Facts are facts, and they cannot by changed by emotional individuals ...

Exactly. And when people repeat the same thing, everyone starts to believe it and people won't doubt it. Denial truly is the best world to describe the problem with the Islamic world.

Forgot to say, about this comment - its very hypocritical, considering I could say the same about you being an Iraqi benifiting from a Western society. If you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Baghdad.

Nonsense. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Marco is somebody who has witnessed the negatives of the Arab World firsthand and now chooses to live in his adopted homeland which he is loyal to. The person you refer to, on the other hand...we know how he feels about America(n Government).

Ah, so billions of people around the world are brainwashed, but Marco here is the one of the few enlightened ones who knows our history... please!

QR, you don't live in a free country, so I take everything you say with a grain of salt. You aren't free to speak your mind.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
flyAUA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
QR, you don't live in a free country

If only you knew...  relieved 

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
so I take everything you say with a grain of salt

As does 95% of airliners.net regarding your posts.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
You aren't free to speak your mind.

Yes he is!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:09 am

If only you knew...

I know. Anyone who bothers to read a report a report of Freedom House knows.

As does 95% of airliners.net regarding your posts.

*Yawn*...Perhaps you should start another hot guys thread, sure to improve your flaming reputation.

Yes he is!

He's "free to speak his mind" as long as he hates Israel, and doesn't say a word about his rulers. Have you ever seen him brutally criticize the leaders of Qatar?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
flyAUA
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 42):
He's "free to speak his mind" as long as he hates Israel,

That's rich coming from the biggest hate-filled person on a.net.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 42):
Perhaps you should start another hot guys thread, sure to improve your flaming reputation.

The only one who flamed that thread was Kirkie, and he flames pretty much anything  laughing 

But ok, whatever makes you feel better  Wink
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
you don't live in a free country, so I take everything you say with a grain of salt. You aren't free to speak your mind.

-> in his country which is "free" in the sense as people are free to live and to talk, even without democracy, and in such countries, people CAN "speak their mind"
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 42):
brutally criticize the leaders of Qatar?

-> why should he criticize the Emir of Qatar ? beside the point that I have not yet seen YOU brutally criticizing Mr Bush !
 
rjpieces
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:25 am

why should he criticize the Emir of Qatar ?

Why should anybody criticize anybody? Why can't we all live in a fascist state like Egypt which you describe as "somewhat of a democracy"?

beside the point that I have not yet seen YOU brutally criticizing Mr Bush !

Me personally, no. I know you're new to Non-Aviation Marwan, so I suggest looking at some of the Bush hatefest threads....Americans and Europeans are free to SAY WHATEVER THEY MIGHT WANT; our little friend from Qatar isn't and thus everything he says must be looked at next to the fact that he is the product of a fear society.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:33 am

Forgot to say, about this comment - its very hypocritical, considering I could say the same about you being an Iraqi benifiting from a Western society. If you don't like it, you can always take a one way flight back to Baghdad.

Read RJpieces reply regarding this part.

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
I do know a thing or two about Islamic history. I certainly don't know everything, but the history that I do know is different from the history that the Arab world is brianwashed into believing.

Ah, so billions of people around the world are brainwashed, but Marco here is the one of the few enlightened ones who knows our history... please!


Go and pick up a book on Islamic history, documented by both Muslims and non-Muslims, go read the Hadeeths of Mohammad that glorify Islamic history achievements and the defeat of the "infidels" by the so very obvious truth of Islam. A very good starting point would be by reading "Al Seera Al Nabawiya Li Ibn Hisham" - considered to be one of the most accurate documentation of Mohammad's life and key historical Islamic events.

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
By the way I respect the fact that you're Muslim, and my intention is not to demonize your religion. However, when a half Iranian N1120A attacks my religion, I do think it is appropriate to remind him of what his own religion has done.

If you want to sit there talking about the pasts of religions, don't even go there. Christianity has a much bloodier history than the Muslims, and you know that as well as I do.


All religions have their fair share of failures. You fail to recognize that Christian history is not monolithic (as is the case with most other histories). When Christianity became the institutional religion of any region it did not encroach on the local culture and languages. The various Christians of the middle east and the mediterranean were united by their common faith despite numerous theological differences and were still allowed to maintain their different identities. The Armenian church maintained the Armenian language and culture. The same goes for the Syriac church, the Assyrian church, the Coptic church, the Greek church, the Nubian church, etc ... Within Christianity there is no mention of a set political/economic/social framework - there is no concrete mention.

Islam, on the other hand, was a religion that encompassed the social, political, economic and spiritual aspects of life and saw them as indivisble. Therein lies the problem. When the Muslims began conquering the middle east they were faced with an immense demographic diversity and it was imperative for the early Muslim leaders to find a solution to that, if they were to successfully conquer these previously independant peoples (ie: homogenize through Arabization/Islamization).

People can argue endlessly about who has the bloodier history. But one fact remains, the successful Islamic conquest of the middle east almost succeeded in eradicating the once flourishing diversity that existed under Christian/Jewish/Pagan rule.

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Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
Please visit reply 84 of this thread: RE: Radical Christian Group Protests Soldier's Funeral (by Marco Jul 1 2005 in Non Aviation)

Ah, so pagan Arabia was better off than Muslim Arabia now? The wars the Muslims fought with the pagans and the Jews were in self defence - you conveniently left out the part of history about the Jewish atempt to assassinate the prophet Muhammed, and the Jews not helping the Muslims fight off the pagans whem Medina was attacked as the pact between the Jews and Muslims said they must do. Non-Muslims were most definatley not expelled, and it even says in the Quran that the followers of the books of God are considered equals. The messages of the Quran and of the prophet are against things such as presecution and genocide, and your history is inaccurate.


Mohammad's message threatened Pagan society. He attacked their Gods and attempted to change their socio-economic way of life. So in fact it was the Pagans, the Jews and the Christians (who all co-existed without one imposing his beliefs on the others) who were fighting Mohammad in self-defence.

This pact you are referring to has a little bit of history. When the Meccan rejected Mohammad's message, he was forced to flee to Medina which was then known as Yithrib and was home to a thriving and vibrant Jewish community. Mohammad and his followers were welcomed into Yithrib where he mediated between the two major Arab tribes of Aus and Khazraj, which he did with sucess. Mohammad eventually drafted the Medina charter (I'm sure you know it) that was to govern Yithrib and its population. However, Mohammad had quite the hard time convincing the Jews and Christians of his new message, that was supposed to be built upon their messages.

Jews, Christians and Pagans were under no obligation to accept his message, but refusing to do so put them in the position of "you're either with us or against us" - like someone else we know today. Eventually, Mohammad's message became increasingly hostile towards the Jews who consistently rejected the message. As for the assasination attempts on Mohammad, you should not take them out of the bigger historical context - let us not forget that victors always (re)write history. Jews are commonly depicted in Islamic history as treacherous betrayers of Mohammad. However, given the fact that Mohammad claimed to be bringing a new message of social justice and peace it's quite difficult to accept subsequent expulsions of the Jewish tribes and the liquidation (ie: massacre) of one of the tribes - the Banu Qurayza tribe. Go figure.

You will find no shortage of these events, which are glorified in the hadeeth collections according to Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim as "God's judgement".

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
And that's the problem with the Islamic world. Denial of a part of the past which was brutal. Denial of the homogenization of the conquered middle east. Denial, denial, denial. Anyone who dares and criticizes Islamic history is anti-Islam, racist and so on. Facts are facts, and they cannot by changed by emotional individuals ...

You obviously don't know crap about Arabs then! Do you have any idea how much criticism there is towards how things are run today?


Give me some examples of all these "criticisms"? ie: marches in Arab capitals against discrmination and such.

Quoting Marco (Reply 26):
The Muslim world is led to belive that Islamic conquests and history is one big rosy affair. Having lived and grown up in the middle east, I can say that from experience. Your posts also prove my point.

It is in no way one big rosy affair, there is bloodshed and violence in the history of Islam, but it is nowhere near how you are portraying it.


You say that there is bloodshed and violence - jameel ya habibi - would you care to clarify what this includes?
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 46):
a fascist state like Egypt

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Egypt is NOT a "fascist state" and people in Egypt CAN speak their mind, and at least the English-language magazines can afford to report in a really critical manner. There is no actual censorship anyway, but the big newspapers know that import permits for computer supplies and things thelike might suffer if they would be too daring. But your comparing the situation to the one of the former GDR or Soviet Union clearly is wrong.
 
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RE: "Jihad" - What Is It All About?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 46):
a fear society

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the Qataris and Emiratis and Omanis are NOT "fear society", even if the rulers are not democrats. And in such countries people can quite freely communicate on the internet.

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