jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:21 am

The military build up, acquiring part of IBM, attempting to purchase American companies like Unocal and Maytag, controlling the Panama canal, their thirst for oil....and then today:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c8.html

“If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons,” said General Zhu Chenghu."

“We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”

Coupled with this:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazi...e/0,13673,501041025-725174,00.html
"...the United Nations discussed imposing sanctions on Sudan as a punishment for sponsoring human-rights abuses in Darfur. China has invested a reported $15 billion in Sudanese oil projects, and Sudan nowadays supplies about 7% of China's oil imports. China, which sits on the U.N. Security Council, threatened to veto the sanctions. The U.N. instead passed a watered-down measure."

Doesn't sit well with me...what do you guys think?
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Thread starter):
what do you guys think?

We

Are

Fucked  Sad
This space intentionally left blank
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Thread starter):
Doesn't sit well with me...what do you guys think?

As long as you and many of your fellow countrymen keep buying cheap Chinese clothing and manufactured goods, the Chinese growth will be unstopabble.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:35 am

What do I think?

Well, now more than ever, it's time to change the SC's structure - even if we dare oppose the US on a major issue every other decade.

As for China, I think it's changing quickly economically, but the old hardline communists occupying important government positions will need more time to change/be replaced.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ACAfan
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:25 pm

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:37 am

China does not shoot missiles at anyone.
China does not bomb other countries.
China does not invade other countries.
China does not keep troops in other countries.
China has not used nuclear weapons ever.
China has not used biological weapons ever.
China has not used chemical weapons ever.
China does not support the terrorists.

Anyone want to add to the list?
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:42 am

China is a country we must look out for either way. They're having a massive industrial revolution and they've got a billion people.

Someday when they decide they're stupid enough to acquire Taiwan, we'll have some big problems regardless of what we do.

China knows we're busy with Iraq and Afghanistan, but I'd be surprised if they were to follow through with doing such a thing.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
Quoting JamesAg96 (Thread starter):
what do you guys think?

We

Are

Fucked

I agree.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 2):
As long as you and many of your fellow countrymen keep buying cheap Chinese clothing and manufactured goods, the Chinese growth will be unstopabble.

I agree.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
Anyone want to add to the list?

In a way, yes:

China practises the death penalty.
China limits political freedoms.
China is an anti-democratic one-party regime.
China threatens a sovereign country with invasion.
China imprisons dissidents.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:49 am

ACA fan

The Chinese have thousands of missiles and artillery pieces trained on Taiwan.

They have hundreds of thousands of troops prepared to invade Taiwan, the Spratley and Paracel Islands, just as they did Vietnam 20 years ago.

They have thousands of troops in the Sudan. They have troops in dozens of other countries in "advisory" capacities.

They did not have nuclear, biological or chemical weapons when they had the opportunity to use them, and now lord them over their potential enemies when working hard to keep them out of their territory and desired areas of control. There is no question that they have these weapons and they have announced that they are prepared to use them.

Not only have they supported the DPRK in the past but they also blatantly took over Tibet and control that country via very terrorist means.

The PRC is a serious problem in that they are already seeking to control key choke points around the world, as well as working on securing foreign sources for the oil that they project that they will need.

There is conflict coming, and it is going to be with the PRC whether it's going to be hot or cold is debatable. For now they are a completely authoritarian nation run by old men and generals.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:34 am

Let me give you a little info on China, as I saw it when I lived there.

There is a rise of the middle class in China, which threatens the regime. There is an underlying want for democracy and capitalism rising with the youth. The administration is scared. They are scared because the last communist super-power is about to crumble. The leaders are hardlined for a reason, they are about to crumble. Chinese culture, everyday is becoming more westernized, and western values are floating around with great ferver. As this happens, the regime will become more hardlined, and I fully expect that China will go through a revolution in the near future towards western values, leaving those old, hardliners in the dust. China is on the rise, and it's rising in favor for western ideals. The power is truly in the people, and they need to start exercising that power. I have always though, and will continue to feel, that China and the US are going to become closer and closer, even though the current US/Chinese administrations would like to you think otherwise. We would be absolutely idiots if we did not bring China into the realm of the US and Europe. It's coming people, just the old hardliners in the US and China are worried about it. I am not. The Chinese have different value systems, but the feeling in China is far from communism. Cab drivers were more than friendly to talk to me about the US. They are fascinated by western culture, and want that for themselves. And, as this middle class comes to fruition, the fruits of capitalism will prevail in China. That is, unless the administration does something incredibly wrong.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Jalto27R
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:49 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:38 am

The whole empty threat of nuclear usage scares you at first, but then you just have to think about it. China is going through a ridiculously large industrial and military revolution, the last thing they want is to be destroyed, while in the process bringing down another country. It defies the entire purpose of living.

Mike
 
squared
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 1:48 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
There is conflict coming, and it is going to be with the PRC whether it's going to be hot or cold is debatable. For now they are a completely authoritarian nation run by old men and generals.

This really is the multi-trillion dollar questions, whether or not this conflict will be cold or hot. Historic trends suggest that when a great power (in this case China) challenges the superpower (the United States) conflict ensues. For case examples WWI and WWII suffice. However the development of nuclear weapons coupled with interedependent global links throws that trend into disarray. Furthermore there is evidence that a challenge need not result in conflict, in the post-WWII the United States surpassed Great Britain without any form of resistance.

So will this conflict be military-based? This, I highly doubt. Even though China is bent on taking back Taiwan, it also realizes that military conflict is counter-productive to its aims. Such an attack would be devastating as Taiwan has quite an advanced military, and the support of the United States. China may be an authoritarian state run by old men and despotic generals, but they aren't suicidal. IMO the conflict will unlikely take place in the military sphere, at least at first. China's challenge will come in the economic sphere. As we can see China is already trying to secure the major commodities it needs by buying foreign companies. We are also witnessing some of the reaction by the superpower, with lawmakers wary of Chinese control.

Do I think a military challenge will occur? Not for a while, if at all. But China is certainly gunning for the position of superpower, a position it lost centuries ago, and feels that it is its birthright. It will try to accomplish this goal, firstly through economic supremacy, and then perhaps through military supremacy.

SQuared

[Edited 2005-07-15 04:50:09]
 
HKGKaiTak
Posts: 971
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:48 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:49 am

Hmmm, another thread by people who are scared that some Asian country dares to challenge the West in the superpower stakes and won't bow to Americans.  Angry

These people are still living in the 1800s when they are all high & mighty and want to colonise China.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not shoot missiles at anyone.
China does not bomb other countries.
China does not invade other countries.
China does not keep troops in other countries.
China has not used nuclear weapons ever.
China has not used biological weapons ever.
China has not used chemical weapons ever.
China does not support the terrorists.

Thank you ACAfan . . .  Smile

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
China practises the death penalty.

As does the US, and a lot of other countries, and is probably not a bad thing.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
China threatens a sovereign country with invasion.

Hmmm, that supposedly sovereign country is really part of its own country and threatening independence. I don't see why it can't point missiles at it. How much money has this supposedly sovereign country given to poor countries just to keep the "sovereign" status?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
China imprisons dissidents.

As does the US and other Western countries - I wonder what will happen if you proclaim you are a "Radical Muslim" or something like this in the US?

And for you Americans out there, don't forget which country is feeding you by buying US Treasury bonds.
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12429
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:55 am

I am very concerned that they will annex Taiwan, perhaps in a confrontation that we may have to avoid despite our support of an independent Taiwan, a country that has developed a democratic society and is an economic powerhouse for it's size. I would also be concerned with the PRC expanding their sphere of influence into South and especially Southeast Asia, Eastern and East Central Africa and parts of the Islamic world. Maybe China will even try to annex Eastern Russia, as Russia is now and in the forseeable future a crippled country, unable to support and protect their turf east of the Urals and as a possible source of minerals, wood, water, oil and just some land area for China.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
and is probably not a bad thing.

Save lack of due process and billing the family for the bullet..It's the little details, I know..

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
feeding you by buying US Treasury bonds.

Another source of embarrasment for this administration.
This space intentionally left blank
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 14):
Another source of embarrasment for this administration.

This has been going on long before this admin came into power.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
a380
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:51 pm

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
China threatens a sovereign country with invasion.

The US of A invaded so many sovereign countries anyway.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:03 pm

Anyone, I mean ANYONE, who lives in a free, open society, who things China is all that, is just a lunatic, I'm sorry to say. They are a dictatorial country; they imprison people for simply voicing opposition to the government (sorry, whomever said it, the U.S. does not do this, or I'd be sitting in a freaking jail. Stop being ignorant). They still have imperialistic aspiriations for Taiwan; for Japan; for Siberia-those have never changed; they brutally oppress their own people; they are not a nice country, nor a nice government right now.

How the U.S. lets a communist regime like this, to take IBM, maybe Unocal and other U.S. companies is just dumbfounding. Far as I'm concerned, we should pass a law barring the sale of U.S. companies to Chinese interests, period. No exceptions. The money all ends up in their military.

Any free man who supports China, and thinks it's something good, is a friggin' idiot. Let him move ther for 5 years, and see how much he would love it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
How the U.S. lets a communist regime like this, to take IBM, maybe Unocal and other U.S. companies is just dumbfounding.

Scary isn't it?
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 14):
Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
feeding you by buying US Treasury bonds.

Another source of embarrasment for this administration.

TedT . . . I hate to break it to you - but here's a blinding flash of the obvious - this is no more an embarrassment to this administration than it is/was to Clinton/ Bush 1/Reagan . . . . . .

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 2):
As long as you and many of your fellow countrymen keep buying cheap Chinese clothing and manufactured goods, the Chinese growth will be unstopabble.

Luis . . .how much "cheap" stuff do you think the US gets from Venezuela? Should we also stop importing good from Venezuela as well? It's the whole outsourcing thing that has to stop . . . or be drastically pared back . . . we're doing more damage to our economy with that than most people realize or will admit.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not shoot missiles at anyone.

Taiwan is a sitting duck, and the only reason it hasn't been hammered yet is the US and other nations vowing intervention.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not bomb other countries.

See my previous statement.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not invade other countries.

Vietnam, South Korea, Tibet . . .

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not keep troops in other countries.

Sudan, Tibet

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China has not used nuclear weapons ever



Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China has not used biological weapons ever.



Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China has not used chemical weapons ever.

But they have them . . . and could use them at any time. Once again . . . Taiwan is a great example. I don't put their leadership in the same category as North Korea's but I would NOT be at all surprised if they commited NBC weapons in the future.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not support the terrorists.

They are a terroristic government. That's support enough. They rule by terror.

See . . . . . . .

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
China practises the death penalty.

As does the US, and a lot of other countries, and is probably not a bad thing.



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 14):
Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
and is probably not a bad thing.

Save lack of due process and billing the family for the bullet..It's the little details, I know

 yes 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
F9Widebody
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:47 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:36 pm

Bingo ANC.

This really worries me as well. I just cannot believe we would even consider allowing our companies to be bought by China. That is just frickin' absurd, irresponsible, and moronic.
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:40 pm

Well, Alpha1, I willingly moved to China a year ago, and so it's not the 5 years you suggested, but I can tell you from my experience here, you are quite far off the mark for the average person.

There is no question that political dissent is suppressed in this country, but what you fail to understand is that the vast vast majority of people here don't give a hoot about politics. The economy is growing well, and people here are first and foremost concerned with increasing their wealth and living standard. Thus for nearly all people the suppression of political dissent has no influence, negative or otherwise, on their lives.

Whether you, as an outsider, are in favour of or against the policies of the chinese government has no relation with the lives of the people in this country. It's undeniable that people in developed western countries are a lot wealthier than the majority of the Chinese, but to make out that living in China is an existance in an oppressive hell is anything but realistic.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:58 pm

Quoting Airways1 (Reply 21):
There is no question that political dissent is suppressed in this country, but what you fail to understand is that the vast vast majority of people here don't give a hoot about politics.

Well they do so at their own peril then because politics affects almost every aspect of your life whether you vote for it, or it gets handed to you. You act as though it’s something superficial like saying “I don’t need tennis. We’re really not that interested in tennis”

The political structure of your government impacts every facet of your existence from the form of your judicial system to what kind of roads you have to what your children read in school. To suggest it doesn’t matter or that people shouldn’t care is just plain stupid, and you will regret the day you came to that conclusion.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:14 pm

11Bravo:

I'm just describing the situation as it is, or at least as I see it. Whatever the implications may be, for better or for worse, it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

I reitterate, for the vast majority of people here, it is not the oppressive hell-hole that some people like to portray.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9060
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:33 pm

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 10):
It defies the entire purpose of living.

it defies our purpose.

their purpose is to do good deeds for "the now" so they can enjoy a healthy after life.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not shoot missiles at anyone.
China does not bomb other countries.
China does not invade other countries.
China does not keep troops in other countries.
China has not used nuclear weapons ever.
China has not used biological weapons ever.
China has not used chemical weapons ever.
China does not support the terrorists.

whose to say they aren't going to start?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:14 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
As does the US, and a lot of other countries, and is probably not a bad thing.

It is a bad thing for it violates the most fundamental human right, and the US doing it, too, is not an excuse. The US is also a country that used nuclear weapons, practised slavery and endured a civil war.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
Hmmm, that supposedly sovereign country is really part of its own country and threatening independence.

Taiwan is de facto independent, like it or not. You seem to dislike this fact. They have a democratically elected government, for starters.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
I don't see why it can't point missiles at it.

How about "stability"?

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
How much money has this supposedly sovereign country given to poor countries just to keep the "sovereign" status?

 redflag  Economic aid has nothing to do with sovereignty; if else, all those African countries receiving millions in aid and obviously not providing anything would have to become colonies again.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
As does the US and other Western countries - I wonder what will happen if you proclaim you are a "Radical Muslim" or something like this in the US?

 redflag  Western countries imprison (alleged) terrorists. While the US is making a huge mistake operating Camp X-Ray and deporting prisoners to other countries for "interrogation", it still does not do so because they disagreed with the Bush admin but because they supposedly are terrorists. As for my own country, the last time anyone kept referring to prisoners as "political prisoners" probably was in the days of the RAF - a terrorist organisation if I've ever seen one.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5443
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:17 pm

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not bomb other countries.
China does not invade other countries.
China does not keep troops in other countries.

Tibet anyone? Border disputes and history of military conflicts with every single one of their neighbors?

Quoting SQuared (Reply 11):
China may be an authoritarian state run by old men and despotic generals, but they aren't suicidal.

But they sure can do their maths if you understand what I mean. 1.4 billion one one hand and some 300 million on the other. And being true communists their respect for individual human life is less than none, thez would be willing to accept casualties no one else would.

Quoting Airways1 (Reply 21):
The economy is growing well, and people here are first and foremost concerned with increasing their wealth and living standard.

Just because the regime is sucessful in gagging people's mouths with mobile phones and Nike shoes doesn't it make it less evil.

Quote:
Thus for nearly all people the suppression of political dissent has no influence, negative or otherwise, on their lives.

I am sure many Chinese lost last bit of hope after the Tien-an-men massacre and realized that the commies will simply not let it go and will not hesitate to use any means possible to stay in power. We have seen this after 1968 and Hungarians post-1956. People will just resign on any resistance, the society splits in two groups "us" and "them" in power and only the really dedicated and brave ones will keep on resisting. the vast majority just focuses on their everyday lives and as long as they "shut up and follow the line" the chances are pretty high that the regime will leave them alone.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 12):
Hmmm, that supposedly sovereign country is
really part of its own country and threatening independence.

Hmmm, that "supposedly" says who? Some old bastards at the Central Committee? Don't you think it should be left up to the Taiwanese people to decide the future of their country?


I mean come on people, we all know Bush is an idiot and I believe a disaster for the US, but even trying to draw some parallels between the US and China is simply impossible and inadequate to the situation.



PS: I was so sad to see Siemens selling its mobile phone division to Benq. Nokia and Pansonic are the only two companies I know of that still manufacture mobile phones in Europe. Not much choice, huh?

[Edited 2005-07-15 11:29:15]
 
soyuzavia
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:01 pm

I say bring it on. Let the Americans start a nuclear war, and we'll soon find out just how effective this missile defence system which was paid for by all of us really is.

Don't you think it should be left up to the Taiwanese people to decide the future of their country?

Sure they should. So long as one condition is met. Any people, and their descendants, who run to Taiwan after the Civil War, are declared not elligble to vote.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
I was so sad to see Siemens selling its mobile phone division to Benq. Nokia and Pansonic are the only two companies I know of that still manufacture mobile phones in Europe.

AFAIK, Benq will continue producing mobiles with the Siemens brand in Germany for a couple of years.

[Edited 2005-07-15 13:19:55]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
squared
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 1:48 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
But they sure can do their maths if you understand what I mean. 1.4 billion one one hand and some 300 million on the other. And being true communists their respect for individual human life is less than none, thez would be willing to accept casualties no one else would.

While that may be true, an impending American threat is a sufficient deterrent for China. Direct conflicts between great powers ended with WWII. We are seeing more regional and civil conflicts. Since attacking Taiwan (Regional Conflict) would lead to a devastating conflict with the United States (Great Power conflict), China will not plan to invade Taiwan. This does not mean that China will not huff and puff about how Taiwan is part of the mainland.

IMO we are witnessing a shift from a unipolar geopolitical system to a bipolar one. Historically a bipolar system is more peaceful than a unipolar or multipolar system. Take that with a grain of salt, I suppose.

SQuared
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5443
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:48 pm

Quoting SQuared (Reply 29):
Historically a bipolar system is more peaceful than a unipolar or multipolar system.

I agre. I am not sure whether it is (was) more peaceful (number of proxy wars and "police" actions within respective blocks of influence), but certainly it was far more predictable and I beleive that despite all, dealing with the Soviets/Warsaw Pact as an enemy had to be much easier than dealing with AQ since the former were clearly defined teritorially and militarilly, with set command structure, regular armies, known armament, etc. There was far more intelligence available... to the extent that it was known that ICBMs from silos outside Sioux City (under the command of Col. Joe XY) would end up in Krasnoyarsk and those fired off just outside of Kiev would land in i.e. Seattle.
Totally unlike god knows how large formation of islamic fanatics scattered all over the world, organized under AQ, which itself is defined very vaguely, running clandestine cells in our back yards, formally - at least by citizenship - being even one of us.
And despite all evilness of communism (I am the very LAST one to say someting positive about it) the enemy was still functioning within moreless same "framework" - what I mean is that (despite the existence of certain clique within the top command of the Soviet Army, which believed that striking first and settling the bill once for all is the way to go) in reality no one would intentionally press the button first (that bizarre and insane security of M.A.D.) since knew the outcome of the no-win situation and both sides wanted to see the sun rise the next day and nobody was crazy about some supranatural dude, willing to die for the sake of some (virtual?) gruppensex with 27 virgins in the afterlife.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not invade other countries.

The Nepalese may disagree with that.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not keep troops in other countries.

The formerly South Vietnamese may disagree with that.

Quoting ACAfan (Reply 4):
China does not shoot missiles at anyone.

Several thousand US airmen certainly disagree with that statement.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: China....what Do You Think?

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 27):
I say bring it on. Let the Americans start a nuclear war, and we'll soon find out just how effective this missile defence system which was paid for by all of us really is.

I think we have a winner for LOTW on Airwhiners. That may be one of the most naive, most incredible sentences I've ever read on this forum. Just incredible the lack of brain focus that brought that one out.

Again, I reiterate, and I won't apologize for this statement: any man from a free country who supports China in any way, shaper or form, or who REALLY thinks it's better and a more constructive world leader than the U.S., or France, or Britian, or even Russia, needs his head examined. If you think it's some shining example of what the world should be, then move ther, dissent against that government like you do against your own, and see how much "light" you see from a dark prison cell.

We had these same kind of ninnies running around in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, telling people how "progressive" and "enlightened" the Soviet Union was, while it was the same brutal thugs who had murdered millions of their own people in the purges of the 30's and the 50's, and who stomped on their peoples with an iron boot for more than half a century. Those people ended up looking like sheepish fools for such garbage, and the same can be said for the modern ninnies who support a ruthless, dictatorial government like China's.
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RE: China....what Do You Think?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
China practises the death penalty.
China limits political freedoms.
China is an anti-democratic one-party regime.
China threatens a sovereign country with invasion.
China imprisons dissidents.

China murders newborn girls in order to orchestrate more male births.
China has over 300 million of its citizens that don't have drinkable water.
China's environmental record is more horrid than the former USSR.
China is supressing it's currency in order to continue to juice their economic development, maintain the trade imbalance which is in turn fueling their massive militaristic rampup.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 9):
and I fully expect that China will go through a revolution in the near future towards western values, leaving those old, hardliners in the dust. China is on the rise, and it's rising in favor for western ideals. The power is truly in the people, and they need to start exercising that power.

I want to believe this in the worst way--fortunately, I get a firsthand view in PEK next week.

However, UAL, I think it'll get worse before it gets better. Perhaps they will have to have a revolution, but as hsitory dictates time and time again--when an oppressive dictatorial regime is facing the endgame, it gets most oppressive and desperate to cling to power. It is this that I am most fearful of.
 
jacobin777
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RE: China....what Do You Think?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:29 am

UAL747...you made some good comments, it will be a "race" to what ideologies wins...will it be the middle class people who will be able to revolutionise PRC by bringing democracy and a better lifestyle for the masses, or will it be the old despots clinging onto power for a long time.....I hope its the former, I fear its the latter...

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
I would also be concerned with the PRC expanding their sphere of influence into South and especially Southeast Asia, Eastern and East Central Africa and parts of the Islamic world.

we don't have to worry about the Islamic world..they'll be ok..though China does suppress the millions of Muslims in the southwest part of China (K2 region-border with Pakistan)

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
Maybe China will even try to annex Eastern Russia, as Russia is now and in the forseeable future a crippled country, unable to support and protect their turf east of the Urals and as a possible source of minerals, wood, water, oil and just some land area for China.

the former Soviet Union maybe down, but they are not out by any stretch of the imagination..never rule out the Russians, they are brilliant people....(though I think they drink too much) and they know how to deal with things when their backs are to the wall.....Hitler learned this the heard way!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
How the U.S. lets a communist regime like this, to take IBM, maybe Unocal and other U.S. companies is just dumbfounding. Far as I'm concerned, we should pass a law barring the sale of U.S. companies to Chinese interests, period. No exceptions. The money all ends up in their military.

i'll grant you that...then you should throw away everything which says "made in China"...which by the way, would probably make your home 1/2 empty....by purchasing items which are "made in china" you are supporting the chinese govt./military and those very corporations who you want the US Govt. to pass laws against.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 27):
I say bring it on. Let the Americans start a nuclear war, and we'll soon find out just how effective this missile defence system which was paid for by all of us really is.

its called "nuclear fallout" and you will be just as much affected as the others who haven't been obliviated.. sarcastic 
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RE: China....what Do You Think?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 34):
....by purchasing items which are "made in china" you are supporting the chinese govt./military and those very corporations who you want the US Govt. to pass laws against.

The really insidious (and sad) thing is that there are few alternatives for many such products.
 
jacobin777
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RE: China....what Do You Think?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 35):
The really insidious (and sad) thing is that there are few alternatives for many such products.

Slider, it all boils down to money, if people from the United States chose to spend more for a product, it can be manufactured somewhere else other than China...but people want items at the lowest possible price....which China does en masse
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