Banco
Topic Author
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Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:56 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4687897.stm

Poor sods. Another set of victims.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:28 am

The boy knows how to make his family proud. He's in Gre'thor now saying, "Oh shit!"

Mark

[Edited 2005-07-15 22:31:07]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Logan22L
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Banco (Thread starter):
Another set of victims.

Very true. All too often the forgotten victims are the unwitting family members of the people who commit such acts. Worse yet, often they are blamed or viewed as accomplices.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Banco (Thread starter):
Another set of victims

- yes, plus that unbelievable Bangladeshi beauty ! What a definite shame that such a girl had to perish !

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 2):
the forgotten victims are the unwitting family members of the people who commit such acts. Worse yet, often they are blamed or viewed as accomplices

�
- they are hit twice. They not only lost a family member, they also have to live with his final action
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 2):
Worse yet, often they are blamed or viewed as accomplices.

and often, they are. What's your point?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
often, they are

-
No, usually they are NOT. In extreme cases, their fathers even are/were anti-terrorist law-enforcers, investigators or state attorneys. And in this case, it looks as if the families were hit by surprise. Like the mother who in the evening, after having seen the 9PM-news of BBC-I got concerned about her son who in the morning had gone to London and had not yet returned. So that she feared that something might have happened to him.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
and often, they are. What's your point?

Freddie, you're smarter than this (I hope). If they are accomplices, then so be it. But, MY POINT IS, how many times have offspring gone off the deep end, and family members have no idea, especially after they've turned 18 and have moved out of the house and have serious external influences. Seriously, you've got to cut the Prozac's in half, Freddie. You sound like a radio talk show host who's ingested a few too many.

For a smart guy, and you are, IMO, you say way too many stupid things.

[Edited 2005-07-16 02:34:59]
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:41 am

I have often seen teenagers going exactly the opposite way of their parents and become quite extreme. In most cases they return to mainstream in their mid twenties, early thirties though.

I can give some examples:
My secondary school was quite leftwing, with many teachers being socialists or greens, same as the parents of many of my class mates. But several kids, actually joined Neo-Nazi groups, partly to piss off their parents and teachers and partly because several of our "tolerant left wing hippy teachers" were authoritarian hypocrites in their own way.

For myself, my parents were rather conservative, but during secondary school and university I became a quite radical anarchist. Today I have mellowed andsupport the traditional working class social democrats (not the tree hugger academic fraction!).

So maybe these guys joined the ultra religious fanatics to piss off their parents, whom they considered Pakistani "Uncle Toms" in their effort to integrate into British society. The same is happening with quite a few young Turks in Germany.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
dl021
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:51 am

Often the youth do rebel against the ideals of their parents simply as a way to distinguish themselves and carve out their own identities.

I will also add that parents are enablers if not active accomplices when they send their children, not yet adults in judgement development or experience, off with enough money and support to live and become educated, but without enough supervision to keep them from going off in the wrong direction.

The same happens here when students go off to college and are led into rebellious behaviour, or worse into the wrong crowds (to take it to extremes into cults for example) but the situation for many young people of central and western Asian extraction who were raised as Muslims is more dangerous with some seriously nutty people leading them down a very violent and dangerous path at a time when they are most vulnerable to this. The "Islamic Schools" that we keep hearing about actively seek out these young people and work on them harder than a Scientologist on Tom Cruises latest convert. It's dangerous and I think that we should work on a solution to this problem.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
B744F
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:13 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
I will also add that parents are enablers if not active accomplices when they send their children, not yet adults in judgement development or experience, off with enough money and support to live and become educated, but without enough supervision to keep them from going off in the wrong direction.

So basically if it were up to you, your kids would have a babysitter until they're 30. Isn't growing up all about making choices on your own and learning from your mistakes? If you think being supervised would somehow create perfectly civilized kids I think you are extremely mistaken
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:15 am

Ian,

You have a point.
The parents of these terrorists are probably hardworking working class people, who came to Britain to improve themselves. Probably not too well educated themselves, they were working lots of hours to fullfill the immigrant's dream, to get your kids the best education possible, so that they would get better jobs than their parents. Now, since the parentswere working their butts off, they probably were not really watching what their boys were doing, maybe theyalso supported the idea that their children would turn towards religion, it being better than them going for drugs or petty crime.
Now the boys probably didn't tell their parents everything they were doing. They probably also received orders from their leaders not to speak about what was going on to anybody outside. For the parents they probably went to the Muslim equivalent of the YMCA, but in reality they got brainwashed to sacrifice themselves "for their God". They must have been brainwashed, because a normal young man at this age thinks mainly of two things:
a) To getb his first steps into a professional career right
and b) to find a nice woman.

Maybe we really should treat these fanatical groups similar to cults like the Moonies, Scientolgists, those nutters in Waco, Texas or those who comitted mass suicide in Central American in the 1970s.

There are several striking similarities:
They always have some charismatic leader.
Usually the male cult members have to be sexually abstinent.
They get told that everybody outside the cult is the enemy, including their families and not to be trusted.
They get told that their life is nothing and the cult, the cause and the leader is everything.
Only what their leader says is right, including his interpretation of the Bible or the Q'ran.
They are not accessible to reason.

Maybe one should approach at least the normal members of these groups with the deprogramming techniques developed e.g. to get Moonies back into society.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
GDB
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:22 pm

One problem stated for Muslim youth in concentrated areas, mostly in the Northern English cities, is that while at home, and on trips back to say Pakistan for example, they are brought up in a very male dominated environment.
Taught that as being born male, they have the careers, they have the final say in family life too.

But they are growing up in the UK, the outside world is just not like that.
School is not, where girls in more recent years have outperformed boys, while they also suffer from higher levels of unemployment, but in a job, they may have equal female colleagues and female bosses.

They are also expected to abstain from a lot of normal experiences and pleasures of teenagers/young men, in a country with a reputation for hedonistic behavior, greater than say in Europe generally.

Small wonder there is much talk of a big disconnect between generations, bigger than in other groups anyway.
I totally believe that the families of the London Bombers had no idea of what they were planning.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 6):
For a smart guy, and you are, IMO, you say way too many stupid things.

chill champ

I didnt say they always are, i just said often
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
mika
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:50 pm

"She was an Eastender, a Londoner and British, but above all, a true Muslim and proud to be so."


Indeed, these are the real muslims, not the ones who seem to have read the koran upside down (or however they read it in order to get such a twisted view of it). It just shows what a load of crap those neanderthals are shoveling out of their mouths when they try to say that it is we (basically everyone else except them) that are against true muslims and hence need to die. Instead they themselves kill muslims without thinking twice about it. Hipocrisy at it's finest...


Can you people imagine if a large gathering (i do mean large) of muslims around the world would gather up and do a press release or video for these twats where they said that hey: "What are you doing, you are trying to tell us that you fight in the true spirit of islam and that you fight for us but yet you are killing us and our children. What on earth are you doing?"

I for one would love to see the reaction to that as these cowards are always quick to say that "we" are against the muslims and that they fight for islam and that a true muslim should devote himself to martyrdom etc. It would be nice to hear someone from their own family (in the way that they share the same orginal religion even though the fundamentalists have a twisted view of it) tell them that they are doing something very very wrong.
 
Banco
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:53 pm

I still believe that these events will have a profound positive effect on the UK, in terms of relations with the Muslim population. The sense of shock and horror is palpable, and I've no doubt they will be pulling up trees to find and identify extremists. Maybe they could have done more in the past, maybe not, but let's deal with the present and the future.

I can't even begin to imagine what this family is going through. It must be absolutely desperate for them. I hope they can find peace.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
GDB
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:56 pm

But there is another problem, all too often in the past week or so, young British Muslims have been quoted (and not by the tabloids) as saying stuff when interviewed like;
"Blair probably did it, he hates us and wants us out"
"MI-5 probably did it"
Watching a robot device examine a suspect house in Leeds for explosives, "If they find nothing they'll get some out of their back pocket".

These might be a particularly ignorant, hot-headed and frankly idiot small minority, but they exist.
All this talk of our 'brothers' in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan etc?
'Brothers?' Not the same country, not the same culture really, not even mostly the same language.
Other decendants of immigrants simply do not see themselves that way, or to nowhere near the same extent.

They also clearly no idea, or choose to ignore, that most of their 'brothers and sisters' have been killed by other Muslims, (factional killing in Pakistan, Afghanistan-how many Afghans did the Taliban kill when in power? Iraq under Saddam, the Iran-Iraq war, invasion of Kuwait, those kids killed in Iraq this week, by another Muslim in the shape of a suicide bomber, in fact most Iraqi civilians have died like this, in Sudan as well recently).

This is not the same as doing, or turning a blind eye to, suicide bombings or any terrorism in this country, but it's from where the tiny minority that might do so spring from.
 
dl021
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:23 pm

Here in the States we have similar situations in Boston and other places where American descendents of Irish immigrants decided that they had to support their brothers in Northern Ireland with lawyers, guns and money (homage to Warren).

Jan is correct in expanding on the cult ideology, as this is very similar to what we see in the fanatics schools.

But, since several of us see the problem, and its roots (even if the one member asks about babysitting until 30, which evidently only he needs) the rest of us perhaps should ask what can be done about this situation.

The reality is that support worldwide seems to be dropping for suicide/homicide bombings and thats a good thing. Reality and logic seem to be taking hold. The problem here is what another poster mentioned. It only takes a few fanatics to terrorise the rest of the world. They do need support in order to act on a grand scale, but they can always get 5 guys to make chickenshit bombs and rent trucks to different cities. How do we stop this? What kind of effort can be made to deal with this?

The first thing I can think of is that we as a society must not ever submit to any demands made by a terrorist. By denying success to them and always giving them a negative reaction we will eliminate the motivation they have to execute these acts. If they feel like they can get what they want that will encourage more acts.

I still don't have a good answer for the true fanatics who want to destroy simply to return us to the dark ages. We'll still have to find those bastards. But if we cull the thieves and power grabbers we'll have an easier time finding the fanatics.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
said often

-
while I of course did NOT say "never" but usually NOT which means a majority do/did NOT
-
THAT of course is the reason why ScotlandYard and MI-6 are looking into every member of these families quite individually. The question the policemen of course ask themselves always is something in the line of "ok, the father and the mother did NOT know anything, and the brother to all appearance neither, but what about sisters, cousins, uncles, friends, teachers etc .
-
Back to your statement. YOUR "often" sounded like "most of them" "a majority of them" and that simply is WRONG
 
jacobin777
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:57 am

its nice to see the Muslim leaders in the United Kingdom speaking out...

"Britain's top Muslims have branded the London suicide bombings "utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic

A joint statement of condemnation came as 22 leaders and scholars met at the Islamic Cultural Centre, in London.

But Britain's highest ranking Asian police officer, Tarique Ghaffur, says Muslims and their leaders must do more than just condemn the bombings.

Bomber Hasib Mir Hussain's family said on Friday they were "devastated". "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm
"Up the Irons!"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
must do more than just condemn the bombings


-
while in reality, people like him must do more than just rethorics. Muslims in Europe for years have given relevant information to police in general and to "ethnic" policemen in particular about things amiss, about bookshops selling extremist stuff etc, but were NOT taken seriously. Police in London for instance must have seen the "Islamic Academy" south of Hyde Park and how those folks addressed casual passers-by to "join" their discussions, they must have seen those bookshops in Charing Cross Road displaying and selling (even in the shop-windows) extremist "literature" and they had all the "threads" in their hands to take the necessary conclusions. Before demanding "action" from others, they simply should do their homework for which they are paid for.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
I didnt say they always are, i just said often

Actually, no they are not.

Because of the way in which the terror networks like Al Qaeda work, each operative is compartmentalised to stop captured terrorists being able to name too many of his or her accomplices. Families are kept in the dark, all the operative needs to know are the names of the two people below or to the side of them and their single upline in the pyramid.

Family involvement is discouraged as being a weak link. A despairing family member could easily bring an operation to its knees so they are trained to act strictly within the one-up-two-down framework.

It's a tried and tested method adapted from the French and other resistances of the Second World War.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:11 am

From the article:
"There should be a clear distinction between the suicide bombing of those who are trying to defend themselves from occupiers, which is something different from those who kill civilians, which is a big crime," said the head of the World Islamic League Sayed Mohammed Musawi.

So suicide bombings are ok in Israel and Iraq....Right?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
So suicide bombings are ok in Israel and Iraq....Right?

THAT of course is THE big question. Occupiers you have both in Iraq and in Palestine, but is it justified to kill whomever is around an icecream shop in Tel Aviv, is it justified to kill an unknown number of people in downtown Baghdad ? YOU of course strictly say that it is NOT. But please look up under the literature about the French "Resistance" in WW-II and you will see that they very very very often risked the lives of innocent civilians of THEIR OWN side in the framework of actions against the Nazi occupiers.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:41 am

THAT of course is THE big question. Occupiers you have both in Iraq and in Palestine, but is it justified to kill whomever is around an icecream shop in Tel Aviv, is it justified to kill an unknown number of people in downtown Baghdad ? YOU of course strictly say that it is NOT. But please look up under the literature about the French "Resistance" in WW-II and you will see that they very very very often risked the lives of innocent civilians of THEIR OWN side in the framework of actions against the Nazi occupiers.

And this is the problem that Europe faces...A hostile Muslim population that ACTUALLY has to question whether suicide bombings are ever justified, as you just did...And since when is Tel Aviv "occupied" territory?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Logan22L
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 20):
the French and other resistances of the Second World War.

Oxymorons for $1,000 please, Alex.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
Klaus
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 24):
Oxymorons for $1,000 please, Alex.

"Most americans´ knowledge about history."

How about that?  crazy 
 
dl021
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:24 am

Insulting the average Americans knowledge of history does not change the fact that we still pretty much run things.

Why do you feel the necessity to turn posts into insult exchanges with the constant barrage of pedantic patronizations?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
saintsman
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:35 am

I found it quite refreshing for the family to publicly state how devistated they are. Compare that to many of the Palistinian families who seem quite proud their sons and daughters were suicide bombers.

With all the condemnation, perhaps the bombers have scored a big own goal.
 
Klaus
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
Insulting the average Americans knowledge of history does not change the fact that we still pretty much run things.

Please look at the very specific context of my post.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
Why do you feel the necessity to turn posts into insult exchanges with the constant barrage of pedantic patronizations?

Without the kind of offensive crap Logan posted above there´s no need to respond.
 
777236ER
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:35 am

The fundamental problem is that, frankly, a lot of Muslim kids (as GDB said) feel some sort of affinity with their 'brothers' who they feel are being wronged in Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq etc. It only takes a few to make the small jump to hating the West to carry out these attacks.

I think it's a bit naive to say 'oh, they're disenfranchised, poor, disillusioned youths rebelling against their parents'. From what I can gather, most of them weren't poor, they got a good education (university degrees for some), one even had a wife and a kid. It doesn't seem like they were disenfranchised or disillusioned, but more that they were completely lucid and aware of what the West represents, and what they were doing. That's a lot more dangerous than a bunch of fed up kids, in my opinion.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
Insulting the average Americans knowledge of history does not change the fact that we still pretty much run things.

This is absolutely correct. So how's that whole Iraqi situation you are running going? Big grin

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
its nice to see the Muslim leaders in the United Kingdom speaking out...

Why? The leaders of the Muslim world, always do condemn attacks of terrorism. Of course, there are some leaders who condone it. But then you have your fair share of nutters in the Christian faith too. Such comments are quite condescending towards Muslims in general. I say this, as a friend who is Muslim says that is how he feels.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
So suicide bombings are ok in Israel and Iraq....Right?

Depends on the situation. Let's stick to Iraq here. If it were Iraqis themselves who were fighting against and bombing US/UK/Aussie/Other military forces, then it is absolutely ok. Example, it would be ok for TRUE Iraqi insurgents to drive a car up to a military checkpoint and detonate it killing occupation forces. It would not be ok for TRUE Iraqi insurgents to drive a car and park it outside a busy market in Baghdad and detonate a bomb killing civilians.
 
dl021
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:46 am

Klaus....ok then..hit back at him if you disagree with him. I might make some jokes and asides about Germans or Belgians or the French, but I won't make the mistake of blanket insults to strike back ot one person.

I got the context...but crap like that is what turns threads into flamewars. Simply tell the dude what you think of his post, without involving others in a mass insult, else you become the guy that starts the pissing contest that hijacks the thread.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
777236ER
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 30):
Example, it would be ok for TRUE Iraqi insurgents to drive a car up to a military checkpoint and detonate it killing occupation forces.

Let's just clarify, it's better than killing civilians in that it's soldiers killing soldiers. But it's still not OK.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
dl021
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:53 am

It's ok for Russophi....I mean Soyuzavia.

The point of the thread...to get back on track...is that the people in the communities from whence these terrorists come must do more than simply condemn. They have to act to proactively to cut out the recruiting and training places for these people.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
777236ER
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 30):
The leaders of the Muslim world, always do condemn attacks of terrorism. Of course, there are some leaders who condone it. But then you have your fair share of nutters in the Christian faith too. Such comments are quite condescending towards Muslims in general. I say this, as a friend who is Muslim says that is how he feels.

I'm sorry Russophile Soyuzavia, but the point you're trying to make is a pretty obscure one. Leaders in the Muslim world do condone terrorism, but then on the other hand support it either overtly or covertly, and many always end their condemnation of the attacks with a little snipe at the US.

I feel firmly that the vast majority of Muslims and Arabs bear no ill will towards the US and the West whatsoever. However, their leaders aren't as decisive in their critisism of terrorists as they should be. Saying 'we condemn terrorism, BUT...' is useless, and simply helps to add that little bit more legitimacy in the minds of potential terrorists.

Your point about Christianity is taken, especially when you consider the famous but oft glossed over holy wars, the Crusades. However, Christianity has turned, for the most part, into a peaceful religion. People seldom kill citing Christianity as their cause, and for all their problems, Christian religious leaders are at least pretty explicit in their messages about peace and love.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 32):
Let's just clarify, it's better than killing civilians in that it's soldiers killing soldiers. But it's still not OK.

Let me clarify. In the real world wars can and will occur. It's not a good thing, but something one has to expect. If my country was to be invaded by any foreign force you can bet your arse I would be doing as much as I could to either repulse them, or inflict as much damage as possible to them. And if that meant blowing up an invader military checkpoint, or even barracks of sleeping invader forces, then so be it. It is no different to another military force firing a missile at military targets from hundreds of km away. Of course, this isn't what is happening in Iraq.
 
777236ER
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 35):
If my country was to be invaded by any foreign force you can bet your arse I would be doing as much as I could to either repulse them, or inflict as much damage as possible to them. And if that meant blowing up an invader military checkpoint, or even barracks of sleeping invader forces, then so be it. It is no different to another military force firing a missile at military targets from hundreds of km away.

I don't deny that. In fact, I didn't deny it. But it's still not OK.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 35):
If my country was to be invaded by any foreign force

Russo, I am sure that many still remeber what it's like to be invaded by your country.
 
Klaus
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 34):
Your point about Christianity is taken, especially when you consider the famous but oft glossed over holy wars, the Crusades. However, Christianity has turned, for the most part, into a peaceful religion. People seldom kill citing Christianity as their cause, and for all their problems, Christian religious leaders are at least pretty explicit in their messages about peace and love.

Christianity has been turned into a (just mostly!) peaceful religion only because secularization kicked it out of the driver seat. It was by no means a voluntary development.

If "christian" religious leaders were still in charge, we´d look not much different from the medieval morass the muslim world is still in. The political influence of the evangelicals on US politics only confirms the point.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:43 am

Depends on the situation. Let's stick to Iraq here. If it were Iraqis themselves who were fighting against and bombing US/UK/Aussie/Other military forces, then it is absolutely ok. Example, it would be ok for TRUE Iraqi insurgents to drive a car up to a military checkpoint and detonate it killing occupation forces. It would not be ok for TRUE Iraqi insurgents to drive a car and park it outside a busy market in Baghdad and detonate a bomb killing civilians

So what's your justification for suicide bombings in London and Tel Aviv?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jaysit
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 34):
Christian religious leaders are at least pretty explicit in their messages about peace and love.

I guess you haven't heard some of the rants by our local American Christian "Mullahs," have you?

Still, noxious as our Fundie Ministers may be, advocating strapping on a bomb and blasting a bunch of perfectly innocent men, women and children into bits isn't part of their agenda.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
since when is Tel Aviv "occupied" territory?

-
simple answer, it is NOT "occupied territory". It is the metropolis of the occupationers .
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
A hostile Muslim population

# don't exaggerate. there is NOT "a hostile Muslim population" anywhere in Europe. There may be some extreme persons and groups, but NOT THE population as such

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 27):
many of the Palistinian families who seem quite proud their sons and daughters were suicide bombers

# only very few there are proud of that, most are not informed before it happens and are absolutely devastated

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 34):
the vast majority of Muslims and Arabs bear no ill will towards the US and the West whatsoever. However, their leaders aren't as decisive in their critisism of terrorists as they should be

# of course not. And criticizing the Muslim state- leaders for "INsufficient levels of criticizm" ignores the reality that a majority of them are heavily fighting terrorism, for the exceedingly simple reason that THEY are prime-targets of the extremists
 
nycflyer
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 30):
Depends on the situation. Let's stick to Iraq here. If it were Iraqis themselves who were fighting against and bombing US/UK/Aussie/Other military forces, then it is absolutely ok.

Soyuzavia, are you actually condoning the Iraqi insurgency against U.S. troops? I really hope I misunderstood you.

Don't you realize that the whole point of the occupation of Iraq is NOT to exercise domination over Iraq, but to build political institutions, and create economic development, and overall stability. And then to turn everything over to Iraqis and make a quick withdrawal. It is an occupation based on altruism. The insurgents who bomb U.S. troops are disrupting the progress in their own country. It is despicable. Again, I REALLY hope I misunderstood you.

There is no equivalency between the U.S. occupation of Iraq and the Israeli occupation of West Bank/Gaza. Not all occupations are the same. The average guy on the street doesn't always get this, but I would have thought a.netters would be a little smarter.
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 39):
So what's your justification for suicide bombings in London and Tel Aviv?

Who said I justified it? Nice try at putting words in my mouth, not.  Yeah sure

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 43):
Soyuzavia, are you actually condoning the Iraqi insurgency against U.S. troops? I really hope I misunderstood you.

No I am not. I said quite clearly, if it was Iraqis bombing ANY foreign troops in the country, then it is absolutely justified. But the opposition in Iraq is by-and-large not Iraqi, but rather foreigners disrupting the process for their own ends.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 43):
Don't you realize that the whole point of the occupation of Iraq is NOT to exercise domination over Iraq

Sorry, but many people, myself included, feel that this is one of the very reasons for the occupation of Iraq. I wonder if many people know what was one of the first acts done in Iraq by the US upon taking 'control' (for lack of a better word) which shows that they are 'dominating' Iraq.
 
777236ER
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 44):

Who said I justified it? Nice try at putting words in my mouth, not.

So you agree that the suicide bombings in London were abhorrant?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 45):
So you agree that the suicide bombings in London were abhorrant?

No I think they were fucking fantastic and the best thing since sliced bread. What do you think?  Yeah sure
 
rjpieces
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:50 am

No I think they were fucking fantastic and the best thing since sliced bread. What do you think?

So suicide bombings in Iraq are ok, London are bad..How about Israel?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
simple answer, it is NOT "occupied territory". It is the metropolis of the occupationers

therefore I assume it's OK, at least according to you and the double standards of these "scholars". There's is always some relativist "but"...
If this is their version of groomed public statement, you have to only ask what they REALLY think about it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
majority of them are heavily fighting terrorism

Only as long their establishment is directly targeted. "Heavily"...  rotfl 

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
only very few there are proud of that, most are not informed before it happens and are absolutely devastated

I am sure some hefty check from Saudi Arabia will improve their mood..., as we have seen in January the Saudis are more likely to collect millions through telethons for the support of the families of terrorists than to relieve millions of their brothers on faith suffering from natural disaster.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:59 am

simple answer, it is NOT "occupied territory". It is the metropolis of the occupationers .

HAHA. I have to say, that is one of the funnier answers I've seen in a while.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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