avek00
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Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:25 am

I had an intense discussion earlier today with someone over the issue of whether immigrants should be compelled to assimilate into the new society. A specific issue arose over the issue of language: it is my contention that immigrants coming to a new country should be required to know or learn the lingua franca of their new home. As I said in an IM meesage:

"I mean damn, they can make far more money and have far more rights here than they ever will in their 3rd world malady-stricken nations, and just having them speak the language is too much?"

I am all for legalized immigration, on the condition that any new arrivals generally adopt the cultural practices of the American ways of life, to include the everyday usage of the English language. What say you a.net?
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:31 am

* congers up images of that can of whoop @ss I opened earlier in another thread by mentioning English as the official language of government (a topic that deserves its own thread).

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
I am all for legalized immigration, on the condition that any new arrivals generally adopt the cultural practices of the American ways of life, to include the everyday usage of the English language.

How do we legislate that? (other than the language part?)

 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Falcon84
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:41 am

Can you say "seig heil"?

You can suggest rather strongly that they learn to speak the language, but you cannot tell them the MUST become like everyoene else. One, that's fascism; two, you'd take away the wonderful social diversity that is the American melting pot. One of the great things is that ensuing groups of immigrants have brought their own special traditions, foods, faiths, stories, dances, and other things that have made this nation such a diverse place.

Take that away, and their really is no culture, because the American culture IS MADE UP of every immigrant that every stepped foot on our shores.
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AC_A340
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
"I mean damn, they can make far more money and have far more rights here than they ever will in their 3rd world malady-stricken nations, and just having them speak the language is too much?"

Many immigrants don't come from these "3rd world malady-stricken nations", in fact, a lot come from 1st world countries.

They should not be required to speak the language if they can be a productive member of society in their native tongue. The idea of experiencing many other cultures without leaving your own country is one of the benefits of immigration.
 
Matt D
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:46 am

Absolutely. It's pretty clear that the so-called virtues of "diversity" aren't working. Here in SoCal you have people speaking Spanish, Tagalog, Russian, Japanese, Korean, and even some English. It's the friggin' Tower of Babel. The phone books and voter guides, just to name two things are 5 times the size they need to be because they need to be written in all of these different languages. Take a drive down Colima Road in Rowland Heights. Or Indiana Ave in East LA. Look at the signs. Now I know how it feels to be illiterate. 'Cuz I can't read a damn one of them. And how about businesses that "cater" to ______ [insert ethnicity of your choice in the blank]? The message is clear: "Everyone else is not welcome."

This extremely simplified account of things highlights one other inevitiblity of living in this kind of mix: racial tension: The Blacks and the Mexicans hate each other. The Japanese hate the Vietnamese. And everyone hates the whites.

As long as you have everyone flying their 'native' flags and practicing their native customs, it's basically guaranteed that so-called "tribal rivalries" will ensue.

If we are ever hope to have racial and ethnic harmony here in the US, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE needs to adopt a common identity.

Say what you want about how wonderful diversity is and how it's a virtue unto itself. But the fact is that where everyone acts and identifies as one, everyone gets along.

I have nothing against Mexicans, Japanese, or anyone else. If you want to be a Mexican, you belong in Mexico. Speak all the Spanish and eat all the tacos you want. If you want to be an American, learn to speak Engrish and don't give me a dirty look when I laugh at you for buying a pepperoni "peek-sa" or ask you "what the f*** is a "Yumbo Yack"? (Jumbo Jack from Jack-In-The-Box)

EDIT:

I should also say that while you can't reasonably expect to take everyone by the nose and teach them English, you CAN make life extremely difficult for non-English speakers that might compel them to learn: Make English the official language, make it a crime to post signage not printed in English, stop printing phone books and DMV manuals in all languages except English, and immediately eliminate all non-English classes in public schools. Force them to go to a private school and learn it on their own. All business must be conducted in English only.

And if you can't understand English, then the Miranda Laws don't apply. Get it in English. Or too bad.

[Edited 2005-07-18 04:50:02]
 
AC_A340
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:00 pm

Forcing the immigrants to learn English will go over just as well as forcing American soildiers to speak Arabic or Kurdish while in Iraq.

Bad things happen when you force people to do something they don't want to do.

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:02:30]
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Can you say "seig heil"?

You can suggest rather strongly that they learn to speak the language, but you cannot tell them the MUST become like everyoene else. One, that's fascism; two, you'd take away the wonderful social diversity that is the American melting pot. One of the great things is that ensuing groups of immigrants have brought their own special traditions, foods, faiths, stories, dances, and other things that have made this nation such a diverse place.

Take that away, and their really is no culture, because the American culture IS MADE UP of every immigrant that every stepped foot on our shores.

For the first time I need to disagree with you. You do not need to loose your cultural identity when you 'assimilate' into a society. Many, if not most immigrants to the US in the past have shed many outwards aspects of their former culture, yet have retained a strong connection with their former homes.

I am a strong believer that when people immigrate to the US they should learn English (do the Germans learn Turkish). I resent it very much that when I go to Florida I am addressed in Spanish. English is the language of the US, and it should be made official.

On what do I base my assimilation views? Personal history. Grandfather arrived off the boat in this country with no cash, education, nor language skills, but learned English and became a DVM (MSU class of '17). However, we never lost out cultural identity, and it is something that has been passed on from one generation to another.

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:04:38]
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Matt D
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:05 pm

Bad things happen when you force people to do something they don't want to do.

I realize that. NOBODY likes being told what to do and doing so often triggers backlashes that produce the exact opposite result. But look. Our country is out of control. Somebody needs to take charge and get it back in control. If that means some people are going to figuratively be castrated, then so be it. If we need to do wholesale deporations, or overnight, throw 5 million people in the street, whatever it takes, it needs to be done.

And frankly, I'm surprised that the French don't require tourists to learn the language.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:13 pm

Personally, I am for immigration. I think we need to make it easier to enter this country LEGALLY.

However, I do not believe I should be punished for being born here.

Do not waste my tax dollars pandering to people who do not speak the language. Do not make public schools bilingual. Do not make bilingual street signs, or anything else. Do spend my money on schools to teach people English before they enter the same public schools as everyone else. Make the schools to learn English free.

Declare the official language English.

Feel free to continue to offer the immigration forms in any language you can imagine. however, we should really push to try to get people to learn to speak the language, not blow the already scarce resources our state governments have on allowing them to remain seperate.

To continue to be a strong country we need to unify. If I can't communicate with someone because they did not bother to learn the language of where they live it does nothing but create bad feelings on both sides, that is not unifying. I do not go to their country and assume everyone there needs to speak English.

If I were going to move to another country I would be busting my ass to learn the language. I have already started a real effort to learn Spanish, just to simplify my life here in Texas. As soon as I get my current educational endeavors overwith I have decided to learn a language or two. Most Europeans speak several (at least 1 other than their native) languages, because they just about have to. The least I can do is gain the ability to do some basic communication in 1 or 2 more languages.
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Falcon84
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:16 pm

The jingoism and xenophobia of this site among some Americans amazes me sometime. It really does.
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Newark777
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:19 pm

What kind of society is it where no one can understand each other because they all speak different languages? No a very good one. Although we can't demand they learn it, we can make it so it is very hard to live without English. If people know they can't get a job without at least a good level of English, they will find a way to learn it. Assimilation does not mean elimination of culture, it just means balancing that native culture with the American way of life.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:23 pm

Legal Immigration . . . .

The basic question posed is: Should Legal Immigrants be REQUIRED (by law) to learn the language of the country to which they are migrating?

Answer: NO. Can't force someone to do that.

Now, I'll caveat that by saying, if you're not from the States, and you've been here quite some time, and your intention is to stay here, live here, work here, learn the language. If I have to do business with you, you had better be able to at least understand what I'm saying and visa versa. If I can't communicate with you, I won't do business with you - period.

I would not hesitate to attempt to learn the language if I moved out of the country. If my intentions were to live and work in another country - it is only just and fair that I learn to maneuver in a common tongue. When I was stationed in Germany, I did my best to learn and speak German when I was off the installation. When I was in Korea, I did the same - but I never could grasp that. German was much easier, especially Bier  biggrin .

As for publishing phone books and the like (as pointed outin MattDs post) in 5-6-7 different languages, that's hogwash  redflag . Publish it in English and have available versions in Spanish, French, etc if someone wants them.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 4):
And if you can't understand English, then the Miranda Laws don't apply.

Presently, at least in Alaska, Law Enforcement is required to know how to say STOP, POLICE in Spanish as well as English. I would not be the least bit surprised to see some South Pacific languages thrown in there, as well as Korean. Quite a few immigrants of that region here as well.

If I come upon a suspect and I believe that suspect to be of a foreign nationality I'm supposed to try to say STOP first in English (which is often universally understood) and in what I suspect might be their native tongue. Impossible to do sometimes.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
I resent it very much that when I go to Florida I am addressed in Spanish.

 yes  Agreed. If I'm walking in to a store, market, mall, gun shop, etc . . . I'd prefer to be addressed in English. . . .

And you can keep the multi-lingual street signs too . . .

I don't expect and demand someone to do that in their own home - that's ridiculous of course. If you intend to stay here and be a part of this society, you will have to assimiliate some parts of it in order to be productive. No different if I went to say, France, to live. I'd damn sure have to learn French.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
I am all for legalized immigration, on the condition that any new arrivals generally adopt the cultural practices of the American ways of life, to include the everyday usage of the English language. What say you a.net?

You're opening up a whole big can of worms here.

Who has the right to decide what is American and what is not?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
squared
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:28 pm

I agree that immigrants need to learn (one of) the official language of the country in which they arrive.

However, forcing people to adopt their new home's customs isn't conducive to anything. What does it accomplish?

Quoting Matt D (Reply 7):
If we need to do wholesale deporations, or overnight, throw 5 million people in the street, whatever it takes, it needs to be done.

That sounds reminiscent of something... now what is it?  Yeah sure

Quoting Matt D (Reply 4):

If we are ever hope to have racial and ethnic harmony here in the US, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE needs to adopt a common identity.

Not True. Racial tensions are a significant issue in the United States, but less so in Canada. So what's different? Canada advocates a "cultural mosaic" society where people are encouraged to keep their customs and their language. Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world, second to maybe Sydney and NYC, but racial tensions are limited compared to comparable sized American cities. Racial harmony does exist, and it exists without a so-called "Common Identity".

SQuared
 
tbar220
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Can you say "seig heil"?

Go figure, you had to compare it to nazism. I fail to see how what he suggested has anything to do with Nazis and Hitler, who just happened to slaughter millions of people. How does asking people to speak the language of a country compare to that? How insulting
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Newark777
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:31 pm

How does asking people to speak the language of a country compare to that?

We don't agree with him. 'nuff said.  Yeah sure

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
squared
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 12):

Who has the right to decide what is American and what is not?

Perhaps they should set up a "House Un-American Activities Committee" headed by a crazed Senator. The goal of the committee would be to look for those who haven't assimilated totally into the American way of life, sort of like a witch hunt. Then the names of these Un-Americans can be added to a blacklist. Anyone know a Joe McCarthy?

Seriously though, some of the replies here have been a bit terrifying.

SQuared

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:47:04]

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:48:05]
 
Newark777
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:48 pm

Seriously though, some of the replies here have been a bit terrifying.

If asking people to speak a common language is terrifying, then you have issues.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
squared
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 17):
If asking people to speak a common language is terrifying, then you have issues.

Read my first post:

Quoting SQuared (Reply 13):
I agree that immigrants need to learn (one of) the official language of the country in which they arrive.

What I consider terrifying is this:

Quoting Matt D (Reply 7):
If we need to do wholesale deporations, or overnight, throw 5 million people in the street, whatever it takes, it needs to be done.

SQuared

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:51:55]

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:53:13]
 
Newark777
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:52 pm

What I consider terrifying is this:

Ok, I agree with you, then.  Smile

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:52 pm

That's just MattD.. He can make a good point one moment, then turn right around one moment and say something that disturbs even me.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Do not make public schools bilingual.

  

What pisses me off in Anchorage are these IMMERSION classes for 4-5-6th graders. Japanese, Spanish. WTF? A 4th grader can barely deal with decent English and you're trying to teach them - in Japanese??? Assinine. Ridiculous. Let them get a grip on Subject, Noun, Predicate, Verb, Adjective, Pronoun in ENGLISH first. . . .

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Do not make bilingual street signs, or anything else.

  

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Declare the official language English.

  

[Edited 2005-07-18 05:54:24]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
texdravid
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:03 pm

This topic is very interesting, and obviously probably overheated by its nature.

Immigrants, as I am, should not be REQUIRED to assimilate culturally. That is, they should have the right to congregate amongst themselves, go to their places of worship, and even create a zone of similarity amongst themselves.
For example, if an Indian couple choose to live on Devon street in Chicago (an Indian enclave), go only to Indian shops/restaurants/movie theaters, that is their right.

However, when it comes to the ability to communicate with the population at large which is English, then the immigrant MUST HAVE the ability to talk/speak/write/understand English. Period. A multicultural society need not be homogenized to a single culture, but the multicultural society must be able to communicate effectively with one another. In India itself, there are hundreds of languages but English allows someone from the north to communicate with the south and vice-versa.

While there may be bigots who want to put down Hispanics and other people with different languages, I'm afraid that many minorities also are to blame as some are hostile/angry when someone doesn't cater to their language.

When I was an intern in 1994 in Long Island, I came across a Hispanic woman in the ER who yelled at me and had a bad attitude because at 3am I was the only resident there and she was "offended" that no one could speak to her in Spanish. By the way, she spoke good English....
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:06 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
When I was an intern in 1994 in Long Island, I came across a Hispanic woman in the ER who yelled at me and had a bad attitude because at 3am I was the only resident there and she was "offended" that no one could speak to her in Spanish. By the way, she spoke good English....

I'm guessing she was a patient? If she was hurting badly enough, she'd have spoken English. Take her offense back to where ever.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Newark777
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm

When I was an intern in 1994 in Long Island, I came across a Hispanic woman in the ER who yelled at me and had a bad attitude because at 3am I was the only resident there and she was "offended" that no one could speak to her in Spanish. By the way, she spoke good English....

My mom was a nurse for years and said she ran into these types of people all the time.

When my Polish relatives moved to American in the late 19th century, they all came to NJ, and eventually settled near Irvington, NJ, which became a very large Polish community. They could speak Polish, practice their familiar customs, and be happy there. My great uncle was even the mayor of Irvington at one point. Over time, though, they became more and more American, blending in, while still keeping their heritage. No one forced this upon them, it just happened over time. Now Irvington is 80% black, and a shadow of its former self.

What worries me, is that the Hispanic immigrants, today's Poles and Europeans, are being allowed to hole themselves in together, and stay in these little communities. Huge amounts of money are being spent is ESL programs and the like, and the people see no reason to assimilate. If today's policies were in place throughout our nation's history, we would still have pockets of different nationalities all across the nation. Instead, we have a beautiful mix of all races and cultures, one that today's immigrants are slow to join.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
I was the only resident there and she was "offended" that no one could speak to her in Spanish. By the way, she spoke good English....

I'm guessing she was a patient? If she was hurting badly enough, she'd have spoken English.

Lol – so true!

Reminds me of 3 workers I had cleaning a rental property [that heavy duty cleaning when someone moves in/out].

They spoke little English and decided to communicado with I thru my broken Spanish skills. All day. It was no problem as I have broken Spanish, but know tons of it.

When it came time for them to get paid at the end of the day, they spoke perfect, crystal clear English.

Priorities?

 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
texdravid
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 25):
When it came time for them to get paid at the end of the day, they spoke perfect, crystal clear English.

But of course!!

If you have an attitude that everyone MUST speak to you in Spanish, Dutch, or whatever and you are offended/pissed off that no one can, and if you have a certain attitude about it, then you are the problem. You are not a victim, you are the perpetrator.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:49 pm

Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Yes.

Signed,
Alice Krieg a.k.a. Queen of the Borg
Living the American Dream
 
aa757first
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
Immigrants, as I am, should not be REQUIRED to assimilate culturally. That is, they should have the right to congregate amongst themselves, go to their places of worship, and even create a zone of similarity amongst themselves.
For example, if an Indian couple choose to live on Devon street in Chicago (an Indian enclave), go only to Indian shops/restaurants/movie theaters, that is their right.

However, when it comes to the ability to communicate with the population at large which is English, then the immigrant MUST HAVE the ability to talk/speak/write/understand English. Period. A multicultural society need not be homogenized to a single culture, but the multicultural society must be able to communicate effectively with one another. In India itself, there are hundreds of languages but English allows someone from the north to communicate with the south and vice-versa.

I agree. No one is saying (or should say) that these people should abandon their culture. I would never dream of asking someone to do this, because it is truly what makes America so unique. But, when it comes time to get your passport, driver's license or to vote, you need to be able to speak a common language. That common language is English.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):

When I was an intern in 1994 in Long Island, I came across a Hispanic woman in the ER who yelled at me and had a bad attitude because at 3am I was the only resident there and she was "offended" that no one could speak to her in Spanish. By the way, she spoke good English....

I wonder what would happen if you went into a suburban or rural Mexican hospital and demanded someone serve you in English.

AAndrew
 
jacobin777
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
I am all for legalized immigration, on the condition that any new arrivals generally adopt the cultural practices of the American ways of life, to include the everyday usage of the English language. What say you a.net?



Quoting Matt D (Reply 4):
If we are ever hope to have racial and ethnic harmony here in the US, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE needs to adopt a common identity.



Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
Immigrants, as I am, should not be REQUIRED to assimilate culturally

my response....!

Thomas Jefferson-
"
* Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effects of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.
o Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-1785) Query 17"

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
For example, if an Indian couple choose to live on Devon street in Chicago (an Indian enclave), go only to Indian shops/restaurants/movie theaters, that is their right.

add Pakistanis...as 1/2 of Devon Ave. is filled with Pakistanis...and down the street, just west of California Ave, its filled with Jews....interesting mix!
"Up the Irons!"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:14 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 17):
If asking people to speak a common language is terrifying, then you have issues.

Gonna have to agree with this one right here.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:35 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
. One, that's fascism; two, you'd take away the wonderful social diversity that is the American melting pot.

I really don't understand what is so terryfing  Confused or even fascist-like  wideeyed  about the requirement to speak the language of the country you want to live in? I mean if you are not willing to extend the bare minimum courtesy to your new home, that is learn their language, then I'd say don't bother coming at all. I'd expect them also to act according to the saying "in Rome do as the Romans do", but I'm sure many will disagree.

I remember reading an article about specific case of the US, which said something in the sense that the current situation, where you have teachers havinng to learn Spanish/Chinese in order to understand their students and not student being forced to learn English, situation when if you send a request for brochures and maps of Miami/Florida to the FL Tourism and Convention Board they will send them all in Spanish (my experience), a whole areas/ghettos where only the specific language is spoken and virtuall undermines the Melting Pot idea because people come to the US no longer to become Americans of such and such descent but merely to work there, go on vacation to their country XY, watch their homecountry's TV broadcast in their native language over satellite, socialize only within their respectiy ethnic community. You may again disagree but I think there's lot of truth to it I believe, at least what I can say from my limited experience.
Great illustration of this situation was that mother of the US soldier from the "Jessica Lynch convoy" who was captured by the Iraqis. I remember his mother was telling the journalists how she learned the new about her son from the TV news on some Phillipino channel she was watching over the dish.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
immigrants should be compelled to assimilate into the new society

-> immigrants anywhere are practically "compelled" to assimilate. Whomever wants to work or to go shopping etc needs to assimilate at least to some extent. But everybody will try to retain his own culture as far as possible, and will have a preference for his own cuisine (+ the spices), and his national music, etc .
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Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
adopt the cultural practices

-> what does that mean in practice ? do you require immigrants into GB or USA to eat half-raw steaks almost without spices ? drink exceedingly thin coffee ? should immigrants into Austria and Switzerland have to learn yodelling and use an alphorn ? and for those into France to have, AFTER the meal, a plate of cheese ?
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Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
include the everyday usage of the English language

-> the use of the dominating language in the new country is VERY important indeed, but do you demand that they all also use that language in the private rooms, with family and friends ? controlled by the Secret Police ?
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Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 27):
Required To Assimilate?

-> again: controlled and supervised by the SecretPolice who sneaks into private apartments and living rooms and sleeping rooms ?
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nycflyer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting SQuared (Reply 13):
Canada advocates a "cultural mosaic" society where people are encouraged to keep their customs and their language. Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world, second to maybe Sydney and NYC, but racial tensions are limited compared to comparable sized American cities. Racial harmony does exist, and it exists without a so-called "Common Identity".

The reason Canada has fewer racial problems than the U.S., IMO, (aside from their lack of a slaveholding history, which is significant) is simple: they have a far better immigration policy (same as Australia's). I wish we could emulate it in the U.S.

In Canada, many of their immigrants are middle class professionals, and they are accepted based on their skills, to include language skills. These people are reasonably well educated and cosmopolitan.

In America, we take in the poorest of the poor, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. No skills, no language, no nothing is required. Anyone can come. America's policy is based on family ties, which in my mind is a stupid policy. U.S. immigration policy should be what's good for the country (i.e., job skills), NOT what's good for the individual immigrants. If they miss their family so much, they should stay home.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:55 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 32):
the use of the dominating language in the new country is VERY important indeed, but do you demand that they all also use that language in the private rooms, with family and friends ? controlled by the Secret Police ?

He never said anything like you suggest. I believe by "everyday usage" he meant work, contact with authorities, shopping, etc. What language they speak at home is completely up to them, if they choose Esperanto so be it. Besides the children of the immigrants will only benefit if they are able to speak their parents' native language. I know all bunch of kids of Czech expats who grew up in Canada or the US but they spoke either perfect or very good Czech as well and their careers virtually skyrocketed overnight around mid 1990s when there was great boom of foreign companies opening their branches en masse and therefore great demand for bilingual managers.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 34):
he meant work, contact with authorities, shopping, etc.

-
I of course hope (and expect) that he means it that way. And that then of course is absolutely CORRECT. What is boring often is that many housewifes of immigrant families do NOT learn the new language and then get gettoized
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:03 pm

L410,

Most Filipinos speak excellent English, because English is one of the languages of education in their country (legacy of having been a US colony for 50 years). This means that e.g Filipino (an artificial language based mostly on Tagalog, but with elements of Cebuano and other Filipino languages included) is more or less only being used in lessons of Filipino history and ulture, the rest (Maths, sciences etc.) is being taught in English.

Many immigrants still have connections to their original country and the specialised local language channels cater to this need with news from home, movies, which are not being shown abroad etc.
.
While I don't mind immigrants to speak their own language within their own community, I think a certain command of the new country's language is necessary to prevent ghettoisation (funnily we don't have real ghettos here). In Germany the application for a permanent residency and for German citizenship includes a small German language test, e.g. in the case of my second ex, the immigration official gave her a form about the German citizenship she had to sign, she had to read it and to explain the meaning to the official.

I also demand of immigrants to stick to the constitution and the values it includes, like human rights, equality of sexes, religions and races etc..

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:08 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 36):
Most Filipinos speak excellent English, because English is one of the languages of education in their country (legacy of having been a US colony for 50 years). This means that e.g Filipino (an artificial language based mostly on Tagalog, but with elements of Cebuano and other Filipino languages included) is more or less only being used in lessons of Filipino history and ulture, the rest (Maths, sciences etc.) is being taught in English.

and you point is?
 
avek00
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
I of course hope (and expect) that he means it that way.

That's exactly how I meant it.
Live life to the fullest.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
I am all for legalized immigration, on the condition that any new arrivals generally adopt the cultural practices of the American ways of life, to include the everyday usage of the English language.

Why do they need to bother learning English? Take the slightly longer-term viewpoint, and learn Spanish instead!

I work for a large American multi-national. I have visited many of our international locations where, inevitably, there are lots of American ex-pats. In my experience, only the tiniest % make any efforts to integrate. Generally they shut themselves in a US compound and only venture out to visit McDonalds and Starbucks. These are people on multi-year assignments, not two-week business trips.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:02 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Generally they shut themselves in a US compound and only venture out to visit McDonalds and Starbucks. These are people on multi-year assignments, not two-week business trips.

Depending on their location, I might not think that a bad idea . . . not everyone likes Americans you know . . .

That said, IMO, they should if able and safe, make an effort to get out and explore. What a waste to be sent somewhere and not experience the life and culture and cuisine and atmosphere of where you are!?!
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TedTAce
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:16 pm

I'm married to an Americanized Cuban, so read into that what you will. After 30+ years in Miami, you learn that you are the minority not matter how 'right' you think you are. The only problem that I have with latins (generically speaking) is that they will take money from any group, but tend to try to be exclusive as to where they spend it..with other latins. Is that horrible or even intentional on their part? No, not likely. Just what they are comfortable doing.. it's their money once we spend it with them.

Next point.. you HAVE to respect ANYONE who comes here with the shirt on their back (sometimes at best) and makes themself sucessful as MOST latins have.

Other thing that really bothers me.. 2nd/3rd gen latin gangbanger types bastardizing both languages...  Yeah sure
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jaysit
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
I am all for legalized immigration, on the condition that any new arrivals generally adopt the cultural practices of the American ways of life, to include the everyday usage of the English language.

What does that mean?

Are you going to police the Indian family in your suburban cul de sac and chastize them for being vegetarians and shunning burgers and cool whip?

Will the new cultural assimiltation police be barnstorming into the home of the Russian Jewish orthodox immigrant to ensure that she eats mac and cheese with hot dogs?

What about the Brit who prefers tennis and cricket to Nascar and baseball? Or the Salvadorean who speaks English with a thick accent and must have her daily pupusa to feed both her palate and soul?

I understand your concerns that there are large numbers of immigrants who speak no English and live in their own ghettoes. But remember that it took Italian immigrants (fully assimilated today), almost 40 years to become fully assimilated in the US. In the early part of the 20th C, between 1900-1920, only 25% of Italian immigrants spoke English. In the end, immigrants realize that for them to succeed, assimilation is the most important thing in the world.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 33):
In Canada, many of their immigrants are middle class professionals, and they are accepted based on their skills, to include language skills. These people are reasonably well educated and cosmopolitan.

In America, we take in the poorest of the poor, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. No skills, no language, no nothing is required. Anyone can come. America's policy is based on family ties, which in my mind is a stupid policy. U.S. immigration policy should be what's good for the country (i.e., job skills), NOT what's good for the individual immigrants. If they miss their family so much, they should stay home.

The United States takes in FAR more skilled immigrants than Canada does. Where do you think graduates of India's top ranked Indian Institutes of Technology (IIT) end up? Winnipeg? Hell, no. They're at MIT and Stanford and at Manhattan Financial powerhouses. Between the 1960s - 80s, a majority of Asian immigrants from India, Korea, Japan and China were all skilled medical and technical professionals. Canada may be lovely, but the US is STILL where immigrants want to go. Canada has to make an additional effort to attract and assimilate immigrants because it has to compete with the US.

And you display a fundamental disregard of the rights of citizenship. Once you become a US citizen, your rights to marriage and family are as primary as the next guy. Which is not only good for the immigrant, but also good for the US. Do you really think that all those Indian and Chinese scientists and engineers who pretty much keep Ph.D programs in the US going would immigrate to the US, if they couldnt bring their wife or kids or Mom and Dad here?

And why should immigration be restricted to one's qualifications on paper? One of the most successful Cuban immigrants in Washington, DC is a restauranteur who came here as a busboy - no skills, nothing - who worked incredibly hard and created 2 of the most successful, upscale Latin restaurants here in DC, one of which, Lauriol Plaza, takes in revenues of over $ 30 million annually ! Now, that to me is the American dream realized !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:12 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
Are you going to police the Indian family in your suburban cul de sac and chastize them for being vegetarians and shunning burgers and cool whip?

Well they definately deserve chiding at least for turning their nose up at cool whip!!!
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dtwclipper
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
I work for a large American multi-national. I have visited many of our international locations where, inevitably, there are lots of American ex-pats. In my experience, only the tiniest % make any efforts to integrate. Generally they shut themselves in a US compound and only venture out to visit McDonalds and Starbucks. These are people on multi-year assignments, not two-week business trips.

Then I must be an exception to that rule. I spent 10 years working in Germany and Switzerland, speak fluent (albeit no longer error free) German and relished being part of the local scene. For me, being able to speak the language made my experience so much more rewarding.

I also have done training for those ex pats you are talking about, and yes many are afraid of becoming part of the local scene, but I did my best to convince them, that they would be better off if the ventured out.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
But remember that it took Italian immigrants (fully assimilated today), almost 40 years to become fully assimilated in the US.

But does it take 40 years to learn the language? If you are exposed to it 24/7 then it takes a relatively very short time to master it (at younger age) or at least learn the very minimum necessary for survival (if you are older).

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
In my experience, only the tiniest % make any efforts to integrate. Generally they shut themselves in a US compound and only venture out to visit McDonalds and Starbucks. These are people on multi-year assignments, not two-week business trips.

Same here, there's a fairly sizable "Martian Colony" in PRG as well. But I think it's just a result of the fact that once the community gets to a certain size, it allows the members to socialize only within their respective language group, go to English-speaking pubs, bars, restaurants only, work in purely English-speaking environment, watch English-speaking TV, read news over the internet, maybe date English-speaking local at the most. The result is that you have very little necessary interaction with the locals and unless you are really dedicated, there's little or no incentive to learn the language.

That it's the advantage of being a member of small nation, the smaller the better. Chances for an Estonian expat in Brazil that he/she will meet too many compatriots in downtown Manaus are very close close to zero. Therefore he/she either have to rely on English (presuming he/she speaks that language) and/or learn Portuguese really fast in order to be able to function with that comunity.
 
LH423
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 30):
Gonna have to agree with this one right here.

Came in a little late there, bud. SQuared already explained what he meant regarding what was terrifying. Not surprisingly, it was from MattD. He frightens me a bit when it comes to his views on immigration.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:00 pm

Why don’t we just round ‘em all up since they don’t speak English and eat different food?



The xenophobic views here not only scare me they disappoint me as well.
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slider
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:13 pm

E Pluribus Unum: Out of many, ONE.

You can savor your own culture and language, but assimilation from a social standpoint is absolutely critical. History and anthropology would teach us this.

Being originally from a Rust Belt city that used to be one of the "old school" immigrant centers in the US, I can tell you that while there were and remain today various enclaves of Germans, Poles, Italians, Irish, etc, etc, they still managed to learn English, become productive contributors because they realized that this wonderful thing they heard about in America was worth it. Those people to this day celebrate their heritage, with various festivals, etc but they all realize the greater good of having come here, raising a family and becoming Americans.

They WANTED to be Americans.

Today, far too many immigrants, especially the illegal kind, simply want the benefits and convenience of living the American dream without contributing to it, respecting our distinctly unique American culture of accepting all and still having a common identity NOT based on race, heritage or birthplace, but based on IDEALS.

It's the most radical experiment ever undertaken and without question the most successful in the history of civilization.

And the foundation of it is very much in jeopardy when we fail to assimilate and work towards an understanding based on those ideals.
 
tbar220
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RE: Should Immigrants Be Required To Assimilate?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
What pisses me off in Anchorage are these IMMERSION classes for 4-5-6th graders. Japanese, Spanish. WTF? A 4th grader can barely deal with decent English and you're trying to teach them - in Japanese??? Assinine. Ridiculous. Let them get a grip on Subject, Noun, Predicate, Verb, Adjective, Pronoun in ENGLISH first. . . .

There is a certain time window in which people can successfully learn languages, and it closes after a certain age. Its much easier to learn languages when younger than when older. It comes with incredible ease. For example, Hebrew was my first language and all I spoke until I was four and entered preschool. At that point, I learned English and it was a breeze, and is my main language now.

Also, outside the U.S., many countries make students learn other languages, mostly English. In Israel (correct me if I'm wrong anybody), starting at the fifth grade all students begin to learn to speak English.

I have nothing against students learning other languages AS WELL as continuing studies in English. Its an international world we live in. Just consider that one of ever five people in the world speaks Chinese. Consider how many people in our country alone speak Spanish. IMO, it can only be valuable for children to learn another language.
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