Falcon84
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Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:41 pm

Ok, I think it was last year, I posed that question to baseball fans. After the guy hit his 500th career HR, the debate began if he should make the HOF or not. I said yes. A lot of people said no.

Ok, skip forward a year. Now, he's one of only 4 mean to have 500+ HR's and over 3000 hits. Even then, some people, like Sacramento Bee and ESPN columnist Skip Bayless (I hate that guy), says he doesn't belong in the hall.

What say you, Anet baseball fans? Can you REALLY keep a guy out of the HOF who joins Henry Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray in the most elite of hitting company?

I say you can't. He deserves to be in the Hall. Put him in there 5 years after he hangs 'em up.
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Greyhound
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Even then, some people, like Sacramento Bee and ESPN columnist Skip Bayless (I hate that guy), says he doesn't belong in the hall.

Why, because he doesn't hit 50+ home runs every year and because he's more on the quiet and unassuming side? What a bunch of morons. Who the !#$^& is Skip Bayless in the grand scheme of things. The surprising thing about Palmeiro is he's been pretty quiet this whole time as he's been building up the hits and home runs. Honestly, he was never really elevated to the position other 'stars' have. Big Mac breaks the HR record, then Bonds, and all the while Palmeiro is building up the numbers.

I think he belongs in the hall. How can you NOT reward someone for hitting that many home runs, AND getting that many hits? Did he take steroids while doing it? I don't know. I, like the so called 'experts' like Bayless can only speculate. I think he's a good one for the hall.
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Mir
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:02 am

Definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame. 500 HRs and 3000 hits speaks for itself. Plus, he's not the "all-me, only-me" kind of person that Bonds is, just a quiet guy who quietly puts up huge numbers.

I'd like to hear why Bayless doesn't think he belongs in the Hall.

-Mir
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Logan22L
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:02 am

Without a doubt. He's a fairly quiet guy, and toiled away in somewhat obscurity for a long time with the Cubs and the Rangers. I was actually surprised to see his recent hit and HR totals.

First-ballot shoo-in.
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TPASXM787
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:05 am

First ballot.

How can you keep the guy out with these numbers?

As usual, the four letter network tries to impart their opinion on everyone.
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N1120A
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:05 am

Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman? I much prefer Woody Paige to Skip Bayless.
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Greyhound
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RE: Rafael Palmeiro, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman?

Yet another good point made as to how he's been silently making himself one of the best. Definitely flew in under the radar.
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Logan22L
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman

Yeah, he's so good that he even won a gold glove at first base a couple of years ago when he was a DH.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
N1120A
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:19 am

Let's put it this way. If Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because of 1 home run and amazing defense, who the hell are the BBWA to exclude Rafie from the Hall?
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Falcon84
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman?

Actually, that's one of the rubs. He really hasn't played a lot of first base for a long time now. And a few people can't forgive him-even though it wasn't his fault-when, a few years ago, he played a grand total of like 40 games at 1B one year, and the numbnuts who give out the Gold Glove Award gave him one for the position. Again, wasn't his fault, but some people point to that and hold a grudge.

He's a DH now. So what? Is that why he can't get in, in the minds of some? Or, like Romie said the other day, because he's never carried a team on his back; has never been one to strike mortal fear into a ballclub? Fact is, Palmiero hasn't played on all that many good teams, which also isn't his fault.
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Falcon84
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Let's put it this way. If Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because of 1 home run and amazing defense, who the hell are the BBWA to exclude Rafie from the Hall?

I plan to apply that logic to a certain Shortstop in a few years.  Big grin
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N1120A
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
has never been one to strike mortal fear into a ballclub?

I don't know about you, but every time the O's played the Angels, I always was frightened to see him come up to bat.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
He's a DH now. So what?

He did play 1B every day for most of his career

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Is that why he can't get in, in the minds of some?

Some stupid people. I am sure none of them would exclude the great Eddie Murray from the Hall simply because he closed out as a DH
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dl021
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:25 am

Solid play and quiet professionalism leading to top tier numbers.

That ought to get him in.
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HOMER71
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 1):
Did he take steroids while doing it?

Probably not, but he does shill for another form of "enhancement" drug...  Wink
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N1120A
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 13):
Probably not, but he does shill for another form of "enhancement" drug...

Yeah, he is no roid head, but it seems his wife sure likes the little blue pill
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
I plan to apply that logic to a certain Shortstop in a few years.

You'll still be hoping for Mario Mendoza, eh   ?

Raffy goes in on his first eligible ballot. It's difficult to argue against 500/3,000. And most of those stats were put up for middle-of-the-road teams.

Tom at MSY

PS: btw, first ballot for Omar, as well.

[Edited 2005-07-21 19:08:47]
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sleekjet
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:13 am

Yeah, he should be in. Classy guy. Really nailed Cancesco at the steroid hearings. Sweetest swing ever...so effortless.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Now, he's one of only 4 mean to have 500+ HR's and over 3000 hits. Even then, some people, like Sacramento Bee and ESPN columnist Skip Bayless (I hate that guy), says he doesn't belong in the hall.

I'll get to Skip in a moment (and I don't like him much, myself).

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 3):
Without a doubt. He's a fairly quiet guy, and toiled away in somewhat obscurity for a long time with the Cubs and the Rangers. I was actually surprised to see his recent hit and HR totals.

Skip Bayless (after Bernie Lincicome) was the lead writer in the Sports section of the Chicago Tribune for a while - but, I believe, well after Raffy left the Cubs. Even so, and I have no evidence for this, but I wonder if it's possible if Skip might not like Raffy due to Raffy's relationship with Ryne Sandberg (I just can't remember if Skip was around in Chicago that long ago). It was strongly rumored that Sandberg's 1st wife (gorgeous, but, then, so is his 2nd wife) was doing it with Raffy in the late 80's, which then hastenend Raffy's departure from the Cubs. Which, to me (since I wondered about Raffy, too), would come as no big surprise that Raffy is into this:

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 13):
he does shill for another form of "enhancement" drug...



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
If Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because of 1 home run and amazing defense, who the hell are the BBWA to exclude Rafie from the Hall?

Raffy will get into the hall - but since you bring up that point, who are they to not include a 3B like Ron Santo (15 seasons; 2254 hits; 1138 runs scored; 1331 RBI; lifetime .277 BA; lifetime OBP .362; lifetime SLG .464; 4 time NL leader in walks - 1108 BB to 1343 SO - not shabby for a prolific power hitter - 342 HR - 5 time Gold Glove winner '64-'68, and only 1x from '61-'73 did he play less than 150 games) vs. that of, say, Brooks Robinson (23 seasons; 2848 hits; 1232 runs scored; 1357 RBI; lifetime .267 BA; lifetime OBP .322; lifetime SLG .401; a comparable BB-to-SO ratio with 860-990, respectively; only 268 HR's). Robinson had 1 MVP and 16 Gold Gloves (and that's the reason), and he was on 2 World Series champions ('66 and '70). Put the Gold Gloves off to the side for a moment - Robinson has 1 MVP against Santo, but practically all of his other numbers either (more or less) compare evenly or simply fall short, and he had 8 more seasons of playing time. Some of those numbers he wouldn't have been able to change much with more time (like the percentages - which are smaller than Santo's - that's what jumps out at me), but some could've/should've been bigger (like hits, RBI, HR). And his team blew it against the Amazin's, just like Santo's, too, so not everything was perfect w/his O's. But the big thing is the Gold Gloves. Regardless, it's an injustice, though - Santo should be in there.

Now after that rant, there's an outside shot the BBWA will screw up w/Raffy, but not likely. I don't really have much against him (unless it's true he was doing Sandberg's wife), but I don't much like him, either, but Raffy has put up too ridiculously huge numbers for them to ignore. I remember at the end of the 90's, it was between Raffy and Mark Grace as to who would be the Major League leader in hits for the decade (I think Grace had that honor), so Raffy was very consistent. But it's not outside the realm of the geniuses to hold something agaisnt Raffy (perhaps that he's had no World Championships, like Santo) or simply to fail to recognize the enormity of his achievements.

-R
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Falcon84
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:29 am

And yes, I plan to start my Anet campaign for Omar Vizquel, when it becomes apparent he's ready to hang them up. After that, if he can get and stay healthy, and play another 5 seasons, I plan to do the same for Jim Thome.  Smile
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N1120A
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 17):
doing it with Raffy

Wow, I feel 12 again

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 17):
(unless it's true he was doing Sandberg's wife),

Much better way to put it, but then again, who cares?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 17):
(perhaps that he's had no World Championships, like Santo)

Neither did Rhyno, and it didn't stop him. Come to think of it, Palmiero had a better career in almost every way than Ryne Sandberg.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:53 am

Thanks, N1120A - now I'm devoting another chunk of time comparing 2 players (but no biggie - I can be a huge sports junkie, especially on baseball stats  thumbsup  ).

Sandberg - 16 seasons; 2386 hits (stinkin' close to 3,000); 1061 RBI (low number); 282 HR (decent); 344 SB; 761 - 1260 BB-SO ratio (bad enough); lifetime .285 BA; lifetime .344 OBP; lifetime .452 SLG with 1 NL MVP ('84) and 9 Gold Gloves ('83-'91), but, like you said (and the continual angst of us Cub fans), no World Series.

Palmeiro - 19 seasons; 2922 hits at the end of 2004 (comparable enough to Sandberg); 1775 RBI; 551 homers (a HUGE difference); 95 SB (not his strength, though); 1310-1305 BB-SO ratio (simply incredible); lifetime .289 BA (his one low point - he should be hovering at .300); lifetime .372 OBP; lifetime .517 SLG (another big number); 2 Silver Sluggers ('98-'99); 3 Gold Gloves ('97-'99), but, also, no World Series. He should be traded to NY for that - they need a 1B/DH (more than what they have in Tino or Giambi).

You're right - except for that 1 MVP of Sandberg, Palmeiro has him pretty much even or simply outclassed everwhere. So Raffy's a shoo-in, then.

-R
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N1120A
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
Sandberg - 16 seasons; 2386 hits (stinkin' close to 3,000);

That is 3 seasons for Ichiro, would be 4-5 for Rhyno.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
282 HR (decent);

Number 2 all time second base HRs behind Jeff Kent (who I cannot stand BTW)

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
1310-1305 BB-SO ratio (simply incredible);

I did not know that. That is f'ing amazing considering he is a slugger
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allstarflyer
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
1310-1305 BB-SO ratio (simply incredible);

I did not know that. That is f'ing amazing considering he is a slugger

Yeah, and I double-checked that just to make sure I didn't post some crazy numbers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/palmera01.shtml

And I also double-checked ESPN.com to make sure:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=1764

Even if the 3,000/500 club wasn't enough, that would seal the deal.

-R
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texdravid
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RE: Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:55 pm

Raffy is a consummate gentleman and a great player. I always enjoyed watching him play for the Rangers and he has the sweetest swing in baseball.
He has basically floated under the radar for his whole career, and that is a shame.

He deserves to go to the HOF without question and without reservation.
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