MaverickM11
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China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:54 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/21/bu...=1121957462-1YQtSv05ogYPtym8yse3cQ

"Following months of political pressure, China today revalued the yuan to 8.11 for every dollar, scrapping a decade-long peg to the currency in favor of a more flexible band using a "basket of currencies." "

""At 2% vs. the greenback, this yuan revaluation is unlikely to affect the U.S. trade deficit with China or any of China's trade flows or economic conditions at all," Carl B. Weinberg, chief economist of High Frequency Economics, wrote in a note to clients today. "Local energy and commodity prices will come down a pinch, but the variations will be small. This is a nice token move, but it is no economic knockout.""
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Yu138086
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:50 am

It's a token gesture and largely political. It still won't stop the huge trade imbalance that the world experiences with China from ocurring. Let's face it. China is the manufacturing hub of the world. Anything can be produced cheaply there (India is a close second). Just look at the backlog of incoming Chinese cargo containers at USA ports and you'll see what i'm talking about.
Even if the USA and Europe kept their duties or import quotas on Chinese goods, China's comparitive trading advantage is simple too large to have any meaningful effect.

Interestingly this decision comes at a time when CNOOC (a large chniese oil company) wants to buy a large USA oil company (UNOCAL) to feed their hungry energy appetite but i dont this this revaluation will help CNOOC's efforts in the eyes of the US government.

If you want to stop wars between countries then open up trade with them and relish the results. personally, I am disappointed that they revalued but i guess the Chinese want some great concession from the USA as well.

I recommend a book called China, Inc. to give good insight on this roaring Asian tiger. There is alot to talk about that cannot be posted in this small window.
 
squared
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:55 am

This has interesting consequences, in that China has bowed to intense pressure from the industrialized economies. China has been pressured by the G7 for literally years to unpeg its Yuan. Typically we only see pegged currencies, when the country's economy is weak, small or very dependent on a certain country. Clearly the Chinese Yuan does not fit any of these characteristics (the dependency on the US is arguable, as China has large trade surpluses with a number of industrialized countries). Such a currency should be allowed to float freely, or at the very least become a managed float (see Japan). The use of a basket of currencies, is interesting, but a relatively symbolic move on behalf of China.

The question remains though: What is this basket of currencies going to include? The USD, JPY, and EUR, and what? the GBP, AUD, CHF, CAD?

SQuared
 
bhill
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:16 am

Yu138086....Trade? REAL trade? with China??? or do you mean FAIR trade? As long as you have a slave labor pool to draw on and a country that refuses to enforce internationally accepted copyright and patent laws, you will never have real trade with China....besides, if you don't have a open economy how can you value your currency? Remember the ruble during the Soviet era?

Cheers...
Carpe Pices
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Bhill (Reply 3):
As long as you have a slave labor pool to draw on and a country that refuses to enforce internationally accepted copyright and patent laws

A wealthy China will be better at combatting slave labor, piracy, and free trade than a poor one, and in something like the last twenty years Chinese per capita income has quadrupled, and almost half a billion people have been lifted above the poverty line. Engaging the population economically is always better than isolation (see Cuba, N. Korea, etc).
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Yu138086
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:13 am

Bhill,
Yes it is true but not new. China has lax views to priacy/ trademark/ copywright laws but this is improving. Regardless, billions of $$ in FDI (foreign direct invesment) buy not only USA companies but from other countries continues to flood into the Chinese marketplace. Such companes much do their utmost best to protect their designs and prototypes but they know this ahead of time before they enter into their joint ventures with Chinese firms.

If it wasnt for low wage China, USA companies would find it very difficult to post million or even billion dollar profits on their books and impress their greedy shareholders. Just ask Walmart, Target and Best Buy. The two countries are economically linked at the belly whether you like it or not.

Low wage compared to the USA wages... YES... but alot of the Chinese wages have actually risen for the local Chinese workers creating a rising middle class there that will one day dwarf the USA middle class in terms of population. Actually they may be better off since debt is not readily available there so they will OWN everything they buy - A true OWNERSHIP culture. Although its not talked about, I already believe China is the leading economic superpower of the world. They are openly buying up foreign assets in CASH to support their strong growth at home as well as making the necessary investments domestically to ensure they keep their economic position stong going forward.

Too bad they didnt take over UNOCAL. It's time for an economic superpower to rise to counterbalance the muscle of the USA. Militarily it was Russia until they were bought out by the Yanks. Economically it will be/ already is China.

China... here i come!
 
soyuzavia
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 5):
Economically it will be/ already is China.

And don't forget....it always has been!!

This is something that most people actually tend to overlook. The US has never 'run the show'. And anyone who does think so needs a reality check.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dolla

Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Engaging the population economically is always better than isolation (see Cuba, N. Korea, etc).

Agreed. From a socio-economic perspective China has come miles, but it has still got a long way to go. Let's not forget that greed and corruption spread like wild-fire in booming economies, and foreign investors will happily exploit situations if they can get away with it. (Well, not Martha; but other people ). It will be interesting to see how currency and commodity traders take advantage of this news.

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 5):
... but alot of the Chinese wages have actually risen for the local Chinese workers creating a rising middle class... they may be better off since debt is not readily available there so they will OWN everything they buy - A true OWNERSHIP culture.

From the middle-class perspective, a sudden gain in wealth often tends to breed an explosion in household spending. In the next decade, I would expect China to become an even larger powerhouse in terms of spending money on high-priced gadgetries and brand-names. Don't be surprised if that "Ownership mentality" fades quickly as the economy rebounds. People will get a taste of financial freedom and ability, and they will like it a lot.

G

[Edited 2005-07-21 23:45:51]
 
NKP S2
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dolla

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 5):
If it wasnt for low wage China, USA companies would find it very difficult to post million or even billion dollar profits on their books and impress their greedy shareholders.

...And this is a good thing? ( The economy is more than a soaring Dow-Jones )

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 5):
Low wage compared to the USA wages... YES... but alot of the Chinese wages have actually risen for the local Chinese workers creating a rising middle class there that will one day dwarf the USA middle class in terms of population.

...And I'm sure they'll readily consume an increasing number of US branded goods produced in China


Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 6):

This is something that most people actually tend to overlook. The US has never 'run the show'. And anyone who does think so needs a reality check.

You're setting up a strawman just that you can knock it down ( or maybe throw a barb in as well )

They don't need to, or even should "Run the show". They should be looking out for their own economic base, not just the monied interests. I should think that the US is plundering its middle class to the advantage of China ( and US' own plutocracy ) should be regarded as a positive development to the 'Pax China' crowd. ( You may already be happy, as excersized by the relish you demonstrate )

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
A wealthy China will be better at combatting slave labor, piracy, and free trade than a poor one,

Yeah, so the theory goes ( and went ) as over the years I've done a complete 180 on that whole "engagement" theory. A wealthy China will also be a larger military threat as well. As far as this emboldening a people of unshackling itself of a brutal regime, dream on. As Keynes so astutely noted: "....In the long run...we're all dead". Be a martyr to a system/theory, as well you may, but not me.

[Edited 2005-07-22 03:42:26]
 
B744F
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
A wealthy China will be better at combatting slave labor, piracy, and free trade than a poor one, and in something like the last twenty years Chinese per capita income has quadrupled, and almost half a billion people have been lifted above the poverty line. Engaging the population economically is always better than isolation (see Cuba, N. Korea, etc).

And then you woke up and joined us here in reality
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 9):
And then you woke up and joined us here in reality

I'm sorry, you're right. Isolation is working miracles in your homeland of North Korea  Silly.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 8):
Yeah, so the theory goes ( and went ) as over the years I've done a complete 180 on that whole "engagement" theory.

Not so much a "theory" as a fact that's proven every day around the world...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
NKP S2
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
I'm sorry, you're right. Isolation is working miracles in your homeland of North Korea

Great. Finance their military via trade surpluses. Betcha' the multi-nationals are licking their chops over THAT docile labor pool. ( BTW, aren't you forgetting a brutal hidebound regime's complicity in the rather grim life of most there? )

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Not so much a "theory" as a fact that's proven every day around the world...

Bullshit. Typical MBA textbook "classical economics" Adam Smith horseshit...treating economics like it's a goddamned religion to be followed to the end ( that it rewards the monied elite is mere coincidence I'm sure Yeah sure )

Define success. Dow-Jones cracking 5000+? Wal-Mart? A regime showing no signs of relenting their iron-fisted control ( to the contrary, the recent sabre-rattling sure doesn't help their case...didn't ROK pull this shit about a year earlier as well? ) over a burgeoning economy? Oh they like "capitalism" all right; Capitalist money. That US-based multi-nationals are raking in the windfalls from all that cheap labor is but a mere coincidence and tertiary benefit in an excersize of "engagement", right? Yeah sure. That's great the Chinese public are getting a taste of a better life, and I hope they're enjoying all those I-Pods and all, but it comes at a price of shrinking the middle class here...and more are going down than up. Economic base shrinks....demand drops....more pressure on producers to offshore...unemployemt ( underemployment really ) increases...demand drops....so forth. No way in hell price drops will mitigate ( let alone reverse ) this downward spiral. The Currency valuation rate change is a good sign, but it's just a bone. A 2% out of 40 is a day late and a couple of hundred dollars short. "Free-trade" my ass.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 11):
Typical MBA textbook "classical economics" Adam Smith horseshit...treating economics like it's a goddamned religion to be followed to the end

Show me where isolation has worked to achieve any goal whatsoever.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 11):
Economic base shrinks

Not happening, and as 1+ billion Chinese become wealthier, they'll start to demand more goods and services, including American ones.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Alessandro
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:17 am

So the oil-price is hurting a bit?
Surely the Chinese play hard, hottest june in +30 years, I wonder what the july
stats will be?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
FDXmech
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Not happening, and as 1+ billion Chinese become wealthier, they'll start to demand more goods and services, including American ones.

The only goods I see China buying are American corporations. We are selling them our seed corn for shortsighted greed. The way current mindset lambasts the Fmr Clinton administration for not dealing with looming terrorism threats is one that will lambast Bush for not dealing with China and unchecked illegal immigration threatening our children's future.

From Lou Dobbs Tonight
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/20/ldt.01.html

In our "Quote of the Day," the vice chairman of the China Iron and Steel Association, responding to the issue of whether foreigners could take over Chinese companies, said -- quote -- "The steel industry is an important basic industry for the country's national economy," that is China's national economy, "how can we put such an industry in the hands of foreigners?"
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 14):
. We are selling them our seed corn for shortsighted greed

Americans have spent 5 times the amount on Chinese companies as China on American companies.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 14):
In our "Quote of the Day," the vice chairman of the China Iron and Steel Association,

He's the vice chiarman of the China Iron and Steel Association...what do you expect him to say?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
B744F
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
I'm sorry, you're right. Isolation is working miracles in your homeland of North Korea

Where in my comments did I say anything about isolationism?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Not so much a "theory" as a fact that's proven every day around the world...

Proven fact? the only proven facts are the horrible number of people living and dying in poverty while the 10% of the world enjoys their material goods
 
Pope
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:49 am

I'm out of the office over in the UK travelling on business. Today I got an e-mail from a colleague that says our Chinese suppliers sent out messages raising prices 2% last night.

Funny how communist deplore the evils of capitalism - but figure out how to use it to their favor whenever it suits them.

-- In all seriousness, this is a good first step. But Americans need to be very careful what we ask for. A true float of the yuan would cause almost overnight inflation in the US.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
B744F
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
Funny how communist deplore the evils of capitalism - but figure out how to use it to their favor whenever it suits them.

the leaders figured they would jump in on the money game scam like the rest of the industrialized countries

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
-- In all seriousness, this is a good first step. But Americans need to be very careful what we ask for. A true float of the yuan would cause almost overnight inflation in the US.

owning the biggest number of US bonds makes the outlook bleak for our economy if something happens with our foreign relations.
 
B2707SST
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 16):
Proven fact? the only proven facts are the horrible number of people living and dying in poverty while the 10% of the world enjoys their material goods

This is a rather distorted view of what is happening in Asia. In the recent past, China and other Asian nations have seen hundreds of millions of people lifted out of abject poverty and into a middle-class existence, at least relative to global average living standards. The development of Asia since World War II has been the biggest economic miracle in human history, and it has been driven in overwhelming part by exports to the West.

Most Western countries spent many decades in the painful but necessary middle stages of the Industrial Revolution. For Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, and many others, this progress has happened almost overnight. Long-term GDP and income growth are strongly correlated with economic and political freedom, not Marxist notions of Western "exploitation."

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
owning the biggest number of US bonds makes the outlook bleak for our economy if something happens with our foreign relations.

Japan holds far more Treasuries than China ($685 billion vs. $244 billion), partly as a result of the BOJ's currency market interventions to keep the Yen weak against the dollar:

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

The uneasy equilibrium between the US and Asia, especially China, has been called the "Bretton Woods II" system in academic literature, after the pegged exchange rate system that lasted from WWII to 1971. It has cost the US in terms of jobs, especially manufacturing jobs, although not as many as some would have us believe, as a stronger renminbi would simply divert many of the jobs that are going to China to many other low labor cost nations instead of keeping them here.

However, it has also facilitated US economic growth by keeping inflation low, the result of low-priced Asian goods. Lower inflation, combined with massive recycling of dollars earned through trade surpluses into US Treasury notes, have kept long term interest rates low. This makes mortgages more afforable and increases real estate values, allows firms easier access to capital for investment projects, and allows the US government to finance its budget deficits without raising taxes or paying higher interest rates to attract lenders.

Is this situation desirable or sustainable in the long term? Probably not. But it would be a mistake to characterize it as a lose-lose scenario for the US. Rather, there are costs and benefits for both parties involved. China, having rightly or wrongly seized on an export-driven economy in lieu of domestic development, gains a market for its products and enjoys rapid growth, at the cost of being forced to buy low-yielding US debt with its trade surplus to maintain the peg instead of funding investments at home. The US gains cheap products and cheap financing, at the cost of lost domestic jobs and large trade deficits.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
the leaders figured they would jump in on the money game scam like the rest of the industrialized countries

And 500 million (that's 500,000,000, almost twice the population of the US) Chinese are now above the poverty line. Those bastards!  Yeah sure

Quoting B744F (Reply 16):
Proven fact? the only proven facts are the horrible number of people living and dying in poverty while the 10% of the world enjoys their material goods

That horrible number of people living and dying in poverty, earning less than the equivalent of $2 per day, has declined from 41% to 19%....since 1970 alone.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 19):
--B2707SST

That was so much better than I could have ever stated it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
soyuzavia
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 7):
From the middle-class perspective, a sudden gain in wealth often tends to breed an explosion in household spending


This is very evident in the fact that VISA's lobbying was instrumental in Beijing being awarded the 2008 Olympics. A population of 1.2 billion with a burgeoning middle class is going to be in need of credit.


Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 8):
You're setting up a strawman just that you can knock it down ( or maybe throw a barb in as well )

Sorry, it seems the text I posted was not what was written on my textpad. I wrote more clarifying that the comment was directed towards the "Fox News" crowd in direct reference to snippets of their 'business' news I have seen in the last week or so when in regards to the Chinese economy.

What they don't realise is that since the days of the Silk Road, China has been IT. The closure of the Silk Road routes by the Muslims forced the Europeans to colonise Africa and Asia and also led to Columbus 'discovering' the Americas -- all in the name of finding new trade routes to China. Bar a couple of decades in the era of Mao, world trade has basically revolved around China.

China will always hold the upper hand, as is evident in the minute valuation of the yuan.
 
B744F
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 19):
The development of Asia since World War II has been the biggest economic miracle in human history, and it has been driven in overwhelming part by exports to the West.

The development was thanks to their economic system put in place before this child labor stuff that America and other countries have used. China has stated their conditions are getting worse.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 19):
Japan holds far more Treasuries than China ($685 billion vs. $244 billion), partly as a result of the BOJ's currency market interventions to keep the Yen weak against the dollar:

You're right, but that is just a recent change. My mistake. But it will be a problem in the future

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 19):
However, it has also facilitated US economic growth by keeping inflation low, the result of low-priced Asian goods.

And these people working in sweat shops are suffering because of it.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
China has stated their conditions are getting worse

Source?

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
And these people working in sweat shops are suffering because of it.

You can't have people go from subsistence farming to $40K/year with full benefits and paid vacation. There is a rough transition period, but it is still better than the subsistence farming (or worse) that preceded it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
B2707SST
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
And these people working in sweat shops are suffering because of it.

Most Westerners find sweatshops abhorrent, as well we should given the resources and options available in our societies. However, for poor Asian subsistence farmers used to eking out a living from small family plots, sweatshops may be significantly better than the other limited alternatives available to them. In an uncoerced labor market, those who choose to work in sweatshops must feel that there is no better use of their time. Depriving them of that option makes them unambiguously worse off.

I agree with critics of sweatshops that bans on coerced "slave labor" (i.e. chaining workers to their benches) and brutally unsafe working conditions must be vigorously enforced by host countries. However, forcing companies to pay prevailing developed-market wage rates to all workers (not just Westerners) is not a compassionate plan for third-world development, as some on the left like to pretend. Rather, it is protectionism in disguise: these firms would obviously move their work forces back to the US or other deveoped countries, as the incentives for locating production abroad would disappear while the disadvantages of emerging markets -- low productivity, political instability, corruption, physical distance from the end market -- remain. In this situation, manufacturing jobs would be created here, consumers would pay significantly higher prices for their goods, and the former employees in developing nations would return to whatever even more wretched existence they led before they chose to work in sweatshops. In short, US employees win, US consumers lose, and foreign employees lose.

Critics of capitalism have developed a "happy peasant" myth in which life in the country was simple and wholesome before the polluting, hellish, mechanizing factories appeared and sucked the labor force into squalid, overcrowded cities during the Industrial Revolution. This rather naive view ignores the constant bouts of disease, famine, crop failure, mass unemployment, and other maladies that plagued the rural West before the 18th Century but have all but disappeared in the last 100 years. In reality, peasants left the countryside and signed up as factory workers in droves because even sweatshops were better than the lives they left behind.

The same thing is happening in Asia today. It is an unpleasant but necessary step in the road to economic development. Even Asia does not have an endless supply of cheap labor. We are already seeing wages in many developing nations growing rapidly; some parts of China are even experiencing labor shortages, although often for skilled or semi-skilled labor. Hopefully before much longer, incomes will have risen to the point where sweatshops and child labor are no longer necessary anywhere in the world.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
NKP S2
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dolla

Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):

Show me where isolation has worked to achieve any goal whatsoever.

Another strawman. Why is it always a black vs white issue with you people? Tethering a counter-arument to an extreme ( in order to discredit it ) I'm surprised you didn't use the "building a wall around the US...." mantra.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Not happening, and as 1+ billion Chinese become wealthier, they'll start to demand more goods and services, including American ones.

Yes it is. The US economic middle class base is shrinking, and incomes are stagnating. Whether it's Mexico or China with regard to the pollyannic prediction of a burgeoning consumer base hungry to soak up US goods.........it's all bullshit...and the proponents know it's bullshit; With increased production overseas, demand will be filled by Chinese ( or Mexican, as the case applies ) production. US branded companies will benefit ( the ones with home offices in US mirrored mid-rise office parks and production in overseas sweatshops ) ....and don't be so naive to think the production jobs lost will be recouped by economies of scale by increased jobs in design/reasearch/vice-presidents of closet space...... It's all theoretical bullshit. NAFTA brought us from a trade surplus ( albeit a modest one ) to a growing deficit. EDIT: When I originally heard of NAFTA ( I guess you were in 8th or 9th grade then ) I supported it...partially out of blind ignorant lassiez-faire loyalty, and partially because it seemed to make sense: "Hey, they'll buy lots of our stuff through free-trade". As I learned more about it, I ( and others...and Ross Perot and NOTHING to do with it ) could see this for what it was: US business looking to exploit lower Mexican standards to secure cheap labor to produce goods to sell in established US markets. Well, that's exactly what happened. Oh, we did sell a few "ropes" ( industrial eqipment to build their infrastructure/industrial capacity ) much ballyhooed by the NAFTA proponents as evedence of just how well it's working ). Economic theory: "where the rubber meets the air"

Now many of the slash & burn free-market fundies will react to this revelation with "So what?" We'll soon see some of these capitalistas go on here on this topic about how the trade deficit is irrelevant If it's "so what?", why the rosy predictions? Doesn't that negate the entire rosy argument? It's like "good cop/bad cop" On one hand you have a crowd saying attempting to buy our passivity saying "it'll all work out in the end as water seeks it's own level..." ( yeah, when we're dead and buried ) and on the other hand the bad cop crowd who basically say ( in so many words ) "F*ck you...we have the gold...we make the rules...and we're unstoppable...just shut up and consume"

[Edited 2005-07-23 03:50:42]
 
B744F
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Source?

WSJ a few weeks ago

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
You can't have people go from subsistence farming to $40K/year with full benefits and paid vacation. There is a rough transition period, but it is still better than the subsistence farming (or worse) that preceded it.

And as I showed in another thread, 40k a year with full benefits is far less than half of the US population.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 25):
Most Westerners find sweatshops abhorrent, as well we should given the resources and options available in our societies. However, for poor Asian subsistence farmers used to eking out a living from small family plots, sweatshops may be significantly better than the other limited alternatives available to them. In an uncoerced labor market, those who choose to work in sweatshops must feel that there is no better use of their time. Depriving them of that option makes them unambiguously worse off.

Just a strawman argument used to justify our love of cheap goods. There are alternatives you know, it isn't either choose between sweatshop or rural life

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 25):
In short, US employees win, US consumers lose, and foreign employees lose.

The only people winning are the super wealthy

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 25):
Critics of capitalism have developed a "happy peasant" myth in which life in the country was simple and wholesome before the polluting, hellish, mechanizing factories appeared and sucked the labor force into squalid, overcrowded cities during the Industrial Revolution. This rather naive view ignores the constant bouts of disease, famine, crop failure, mass unemployment, and other maladies that plagued the rural West before the 18th Century but have all but disappeared in the last 100 years. In reality, peasants left the countryside and signed up as factory workers in droves because even sweatshops were better than the lives they left behind.

All but disappeared? What planet do you live on? Do you even know the poverty numbers worldwide? By the way, I never said the happy peasant myth, stop putting words in my mouth

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 25):
The same thing is happening in Asia today. It is an unpleasant but necessary step in the road to economic development. Even Asia does not have an endless supply of cheap labor. We are already seeing wages in many developing nations growing rapidly; some parts of China are even experiencing labor shortages, although often for skilled or semi-skilled labor. Hopefully before much longer, incomes will have risen to the point where sweatshops and child labor are no longer necessary anywhere in the world.

Labor shortages because companies are complaining about the high wages in China! Can you imagine that? They're just looking for the next big cheap labor source, and that is turning out to be Vietnam.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 27):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
You can't have people go from subsistence farming to $40K/year with full benefits and paid vacation. There is a rough transition period, but it is still better than the subsistence farming (or worse) that preceded it.

And as I showed in another thread, 40k a year with full benefits is far less than half of the US population.

You always have to relate the income to the costs of living. I had discussions with my ex brothers in law in the Philippines, who thought my income back then immense. This stopped soon after I explained to them that, while the comparable income in Germany was about 10 times of the Filipino one, the expenses for food, accomodation etc. were also ten times higher.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 27):
The only people winning are the super wealthy

A half billion people have been lifted above the poverty line in the last two decades--all because China's economy has opened up.

Quoting B744F (Reply 27):
Do you even know the poverty numbers worldwide?

Yes and as I've said they're way down thanks to capitalism. See reply #20. People living on less than the equivalent of $2 per day is down from 41% to 19% in little over 30 years....again all thanks to more open economies and freer trade.

Quoting B744F (Reply 27):
Labor shortages because companies are complaining about the high wages in China! Can you imagine that? They're just looking for the next big cheap labor source, and that is turning out to be Vietnam.

It's part of the transition process; economies based on cheap manual labor, when successful eventually transition to technology and knowledge based economies.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 26):
Another strawman.

Negative--protection, subsidies, trade barriers, etc are all forms of isolation and they never work. For proof look no further than the continent of Africa or Asia pre and post isolationist spells. Invariably they hurt whatever is being protected or subsidized.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 26):
It's all theoretical bullshit

Ah yes I recall well known economists relating this theory  Silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
B2707SST
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 26):
NAFTA brought us from a trade surplus ( albeit a modest one ) to a growing deficit.

Four problems with this. First, it's not true. NAFTA went into effect in 1994. Apart from a temporary spike due to the 1990-91 recession's depressionary impact on imports, the US current account balance had been in consistent deficit for about 10 years by the time NAFTA appeared:



Second, even ignoring the above, just because a larger current account deficit followed NAFTA does not mean that NAFTA caused the widening deficits:
The Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc Fallacy is committed whenever one reasons to a causal conclusion based solely on the supposed cause preceding its "effect". Of course, it is a necessary condition of causation that the cause precede the effect, but it is not a sufficient condition. Thus, post hoc evidence may suggest the hypothesis of a causal relationship, which then requires further testing, but it is never sufficient evidence on its own. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html

Third, the majority of the US' trade deficit is attributable to Asian trading partners, not Mexico or Canada. In 1994-1996, as NAFTA came into effect, the United States' bilateral trade deficits with China and Japan were consistently over twice the size of its bilateral deficits with Mexico and Canda (source).

Fourth, current account deficits and surpluses are not intrinsically good or bad. Australia, for example, is widely recognized to be in very good economic shape but has persistently run relatively large and growinig trade deficits (source).

The decline in the current account balance over the last 10 years is, in many economists' view, largely attributable to falling US savings rates (consumption growing faster than real income, requiring foreign capital inflows to fill the gap), expansionary US monetary policy, and currency market interventions by foreign governments.

Quoting B744F (Reply 27):
All but disappeared?

All but disappeared in the West. Certainly these problems continue to affect the developing regions of the globe. However, as MaverickM11 pointed out, global poverty numbers today are far more hopeful than they were 25 or even 10 years ago. 10% annualized GDP growth in countries like China adds up rather quickly.

Quoting B744F (Reply 27):
The only people winning are the super wealthy

Really? Do you have a home mortgage, an auto loan, or any other form of long-term debt? What interest rate are you paying? How much higher would those rates be without the trade-induced Asian purchases of long-dated bonds? If you own a home, how much has the value increased because others can now afford to buy it?

Do you ever shop at Wal-Mart? Target? Macy's? Where are those products made? How much more would you pay if they were made here? Do you ever comparison shop, in person or online? How do low-cost retailers get that way?

Do you own stocks? Bonds? Have a 401(k), an IRA, a SEP, an employer-operated retirement system? The "greedy shareholders" everyone likes to pillory are most often pensions, retirement plans, trusts, endowments, and foundations that pass their price appreciation and dividends on to their beneficiaries.

You accuse me of setting up straw-man comparisons and proceed immediately to make the absurd claim that only the super-rich benefit from trade? Hmmm....


--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
NKP S2
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dolla

Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 26):
Another strawman.

Negative--protection, subsidies, trade barriers, etc are all forms of isolation and they never work. For proof look no further than the continent of Africa or Asia pre and post isolationist spells. Invariably they hurt whatever is being protected or subsidized.

The hell it isn't. You're twisting this around and trying to move the goalposts of this argument. Now I see you're interpreting the term so broadly I would not be surprised for you to regard sovereignty, or even borders as "isolationism". How about environmental and safety standards? Another monkey wrench in the free flow of capital?

Fact: They are NOT trading fairly, they DO undercut 1st-world wages via draconian standards of wages/safety/freedom, but nobody gives a damn since US multinationals profit from this windfall, and the much ballhooed Wal-Mart culture has been inflated so as to have a life of its own. Trepidacious lip-service is given to "getting tough" on unfair trade" ( Super 301 etc ) but is all but drowned out by the fat-cat lobby wanting to protect their gravy train and economic eggheads stridently screeching worries about getting China mad at us ( A "trade war! ) Ha ha. YGBFSM!! A country whose exports to the US outweigh the imports from same on a truly, certifiably gargantuan level is going to retaliate??? We're they're biggest f*cking market! No, this just shows how much business is in control of US foreign/trade policy. Now all those treasury bills they have are more evidence of how far we've whored ourslves and painted ourselves into a corner.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 26):
It's all theoretical bullshit

Ah yes I recall well known economists relating this theory

Bingo. Ivory tower macro pie-chart eggheads all...steeped in sterility...and guess what...They all agree with each other...imagine that!!! Wow! If they were waist deep in liquid oxygen in Saudi Arabia that they'd conclude that, on average, they're just perfectly comfortable.

I prefer Keynesian: Works awkwardly in theory...but a well-oiled machine in practice. ( that is, unless you're a black-hatted plutocrat or egghead ). Just look at the postwar period till the late-60's/early 70's.

[Edited 2005-07-23 15:18:41]

[Edited 2005-07-23 15:19:35]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:35 pm

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 31):
. Ivory tower macro pie-chart eggheads all...steeped in sterility...and guess what...They all agree with each other...

How convenient for you that nothing backs your argument  Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LJ
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:00 pm

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 25):
However, for poor Asian subsistence farmers used to eking out a living from small family plots, sweatshops may be significantly better than the other limited alternatives available to them.

I hope you don't use this argument to support the child labour in the Chinese toy industry (has been well documented thus can't be denied). It would be foolish to believe China will do anything about this as they realise that their unique selling point is price and not quality (BTW i don't say that Chinese products are bad).

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Not happening, and as 1+ billion Chinese become wealthier, they'll start to demand more goods and services, including American ones.

However they would prefer Chinese goods. A very good example is the fact that China is duplicating a lot of products in order to have a Chinese variant. For example, the moblie phone business is almost a China only business. Nokia isn't happy about this, but unlike many other countries China has the market to set up their own companies.

Does this mean we've to set up barriers against China? I personally feel no as in the end it won't benefit anyone, but I can understand why some want to.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Negative--protection, subsidies, trade barriers, etc are all forms of isolation and they never work.

I think one has to add "in the long run". Short term trade barriers do work, but in the long run it won't.
 
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
However they would prefer Chinese goods.

Those goods still require knowledge and technology to create, which is theoretically should be the domain of the US--despite the fact that certain groups want to maintain the lower-knowledge manufacturing sector.

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
I think one has to add "in the long run". Short term trade barriers do work, but in the long run it won't.

Fair enough.

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
I hope you don't use this argument to support the child labour in the Chinese toy industry (has been well documented thus can't be denied).

I don't like or support child labor, but it's a necessary part of the transistion (Industrial Revolution anyone?) that if constrained, will delay the start of the era when China will abandon and prohibit child labor.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mrniji
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
A half billion people have been lifted above the poverty line in the last two decades--all because China's economy has opened up.

Careful with such assumptions.. the world bank indicator of US$$ 1 a day as benchmark for the poverty is not accurate at all! The introduction of PPP as opposed to GDP per capita is already a progress here, and I hope that the measurement of poverty will be modified, too..

Difficult to measure btw.. calories are in my eyes are inaccurate, too. The measure of happiness has failed in my eyes, latest in tgeh attempt of some LSE scholars.. HDI is too less... so how do you guys think poverty should be measured?

Sorry Maverick, I just wanted to point out that relying on SIMPLE statistics - as you did in the quote - might not be an accurate way to define poverty.. it is far more complex and needs to bve interpreted out of the eyes of "The other", too..  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 35):
Sorry Maverick, I just wanted to point out that relying on SIMPLE statistics

That's why I said 500 million people have been lifted above the poverty line and made no ascertainments otherwise as to their happiness. Regardless, such a large movement of such a large group of people is a very good thing.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
NKP S2
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dolla

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 31):
. Ivory tower macro pie-chart eggheads all...steeped in sterility...and guess what...They all agree with each other...

How convenient for you that nothing backs your argument Silly

....And what backs yours? That they all agree with each other?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
However they would prefer Chinese goods.

Those goods still require knowledge and technology to create, which is theoretically should be the domain of the US--despite the fact that certain groups want to maintain the lower-knowledge manufacturing sector.

There move the goalposts again. Ahhh, so then it's all theoretical afterall then, isn't it...and the same trite argument trotted out yet again by the classical economic eggheads. So you're assertion is that those displaced by the "lower-knowledge" ( that's your opinion kiddo ) manufacturing sector will transition to design/engineering ( or be eclipsed by such large numbers of new entrants so as to made irrelevant ) then? The ratio of design/engineers to production would make that an impossibility, and no amount of likely aconomies of scale would bring that about. You know that.

BTW, if this model is so successful, has the trade deficit with China shrunk? Or, is it time to move the goalposts again and say it's irrelevant? ( if you say so, wouldn't that negate all your arguments made heretofore? ). The US gov't has attempted to soften the trade #'s by including services ( and classifying fast food as "manufacturing....HA! ) and services can well be included, but the sheer disparity betweeen the two cannot be recovered ( not within 10 lifetimes anyway ) without absolutely explosive sustained ecomomic growth.

I wouldn't even say whether or not the home citizens would prefer Chinese goods, they simply won't have much choice, the production of US branded goods being there already.



Quoting LJ (Reply 33):

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Negative--protection, subsidies, trade barriers, etc are all forms of isolation and they never work.

I think one has to add "in the long run". Short term trade barriers do work, but in the long run it won't.

There again, depends on what your perspective or loyalties are. They use them to great advantage in growing their economy. As a trading partner, we shouldn't want that, but they're sure looking out for #1. We look out for our #1 ( corporate profits ) rather than the nationa as a whole. ( I guess you can tell I'm somewhat of an economic nationalist? )

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):

I don't like or support child labor, but it's a necessary part of the transistion (Industrial Revolution anyone?)

Yeah sure, after they become a prosperous democracy or representitive republic with a contented and educated middle class, they'll play nice....in a couple of hundred years......besides, it's not bad for the quarterlies US companies exploiting them in the meantime though eh?

"...In the long run...we're all dead"

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 35):
Sorry Maverick, I just wanted to point out that relying on SIMPLE statistics - as you did in the quote - might not be an accurate way to define poverty.. it is far more complex and needs to bve interpreted out of the eyes of "The other", too.

Well I guess that's pretty much true with anything. The textbook #'s and theory can be a rough guide, cannot be rigidly applied to the real world without deviation.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 37):
....And what backs yours? That they all agree with each other?

For starters, there *are* economists that back my theories. In fact most of my theories come from said economists and real world experience, and not populist rhetoric that is meaningless and impractical.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 37):
( that's your opinion kiddo )

'Fraid not. Manufacturing jobs do not require a lot of knowledge. That's why they're easily exported and easily replaced.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 37):
..in a couple of hundred years......

South Korea, Japan, Germany, and others did it in less than 50.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 37):
BTW, if this model is so successful, has the trade deficit with China shrunk?

The model is successful, however when, currencies are artificially distorted, it will end up in an imbalance.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 37):
Ahhh, so then it's all theoretical afterall then, isn't it...

No it's theoretical but it's also what is happening in real life--economies transition from hard manual labor, to manufacturing, to knowledge based economies....in case you haven't noticed the exodus of manufacturing from all Western economies in the last several decades.

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 37):
manufacturing sector will transition to design/engineering

Not necessarily design or engineering--manufacturing jobs will disappear which will require those displaced to transition to other sectors of the economy, thus having no effect on any ratio of "brains" to "brawn" within a sector.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LJ
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Those goods still require knowledge and technology to create, which is theoretically should be the domain of the US--despite the fact that certain groups want to maintain the lower-knowledge manufacturing sector.

In theory yes, in practise no. Ever wondered why the Chinese government is so keen on Linux??? Ever wondered why they just bought Rover???? The Chinese do not intend to pay Microsoft for Windows, they do not intend to import cars. They don't need to as they have the critical mass to do everything themselves. Like their Japanese counterparts they are very good in duplicating (not copying as the goods they produce are different). Moreover they accept lower quality standard (at least for now) to bypass a foreign competitor (as shown in the mobile phone market). Basically in the end China needs nobody, but we need China.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
I don't like or support child labor, but it's a necessary part of the transistion (Industrial Revolution anyone?) that if constrained, will delay the start of the era when China will abandon and prohibit child labor

However I hope you agree that foreign companies should not buy goods made with child labour? Or don't you care as long as we (the West) can have cheap ;products?
 
FDXmech
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
I don't like or support child labor, but it's a necessary part of the transistion (Industrial Revolution anyone?) that if constrained, will delay the start of the era when China will abandon and prohibit child labor.

Stalin couldn't have put better himself when transforming the USSR from an agrarian to industrial society.

Your using the "industrial revolution" for justification is shameful and misguided. The world is no longer in the "industrial revolution" era. To endorse rolling back the human condition 100+ years so it can eventually do away with it defies logic. This is real life, not a history reenactment.

Would you volunteer your child to fill child labor quotas for the greater good of this necessary transition.
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MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting FDXmech (Reply 40):
The world is no longer in the "industrial revolution" era.

PARTS of the world are no longer in that stage but it was a necessary stage in order to move forward.

Quoting FDXmech (Reply 40):
Would you volunteer your child to fill child labor quotas for the greater good of this necessary transition.

No I wouldn't, Michael Moore, because I have reason to do that in the USA. If I were a peasant in China however, it may be my only choice that is better than begging or subsistence living.

Quoting LJ (Reply 39):
However I hope you agree that foreign companies should not buy goods made with child labour?

Depends how you define child labour, and more importantly, what the alternative is.

[Edited 2005-07-24 23:53:45]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FDXmech
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
Depends how you define child labour, and more importantly, what the alternative is.

How about paying a fair wage for a days work. It's worked well for generations
and has created a thriving middle class able to sustain a nation with a high standard of living.
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MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 42):
How about paying a fair wage for a days work.

Even if the worker is 7 years old?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FDXmech
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Even if the worker is 7 years old?

Nope. Plenty of workers over 18 yrs old in US.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:32 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 44):
Nope. Plenty of workers over 18 yrs old in US.

Yeah but the question was:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
how you define child labour, and more importantly, what the alternative is.

...which makes your response completely irrelevant.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FDXmech
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
Manufacturing jobs do not require a lot of knowledge. That's why they're easily exported and easily replaced.

Any job is easily exported and they are. IT jobns and engineering jobs are going overseas as well. You appear to believe the west has a monopoly on intellectual prowess.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
Not necessarily design or engineering--manufacturing jobs will disappear which will require those displaced to transition to other sectors of the economy, thus having no effect on any ratio of "brains" to "brawn" within a sector.

I would like for you to name me a time in our history when large sectors of our economy were willingly discarded to satisfy your snobbish attitude of worthwhile occupations. Not an evolutionary cycle where we progress as a country but intentionally write off portions of our workforce.
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MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
Any job is easily exported and they are.

The ones that require less education/training are more easily exported.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
IT jobns and engineering jobs are going overseas as well.

Primarily IT and engineering jobs that require little training such as reservation/call centers.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
You appear to believe the west has a monopoly on intellectual prowess.

The West does have an advantage on intellectual prowress because it has the most resources devoted to training/education, ie universities. One of the main reasons that more high education/training jobs aren't going overseas is because there is a dearth of highly educated/trained people overseas in places like India and China but they are catching up.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
Not an evolutionary cycle where we progress as a country but intentionally write off portions of our workforce.

No one is "writing off" a portion of the workforce. Entire industries have gone out of business or have been sent to lower cost areas and yet we still have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the entire world.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
I would like for you to name me a time in our history when large sectors of our economy were willingly discarded to satisfy your snobbish attitude of worthwhile occupations.

When was the last time you rode a horse buggey to work? Maybe we should continue to subsidize horse buggey makers instead of cruelly "writing them off".  Yeah sure
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dollar

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
your snobbish attitude of worthwhile occupations

I'm sorry if you can't deal with the fact that some jobs require more training/education than others. It makes me laugh when certain groups piss all over food service workers making a sandwich but romanticize the manufacturer--who has about the same amount of training--sandwiching two pieces of metal together.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: China Will No Longer Peg Its Currency To Dolla

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 47):

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 46):
You appear to believe the west has a monopoly on intellectual prowess.

Education aside, I may add that North Americans are a great deal lazier than our friends in Asia. We have life pretty easy here by comparison, and we take advantage of all the luxuries afforded to us (ie vacation time, coffee breaks etc).

As we all know, many of our "low-skill" industries are dominated by expensive unionized labour here in North America. Unions today, protect the lazy and discourage the keen at a very heavy cost to our ability to compete overseas.

G

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