Blackbird1331
Topic Author
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Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:38 am

Yes, he now has number seven. Thank you Lance.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:37 am

Um, he didnt win yet...one stage to go.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:47 am

Yeah, he won't win, perhaps, if he falls off his bike, and gets hurt and can't finish. The fat lady is warbling in the background as we speak.

The man is incredible, yet still there are some who won't acknowledge just how great he is at this event.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:55 am

I know. I just think he has too much savvy to lose it now. The guy is a genius at what he does. It will take a major screwup for him not to win. I do not think the other riders can come up with a Herculean effort to just simply overpower Armstrong.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Venezuela747
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:58 am

He is that good of an athlete

True he hasn't won yet, but anyone who tries to pull an attack tomorrow (basso, Ulrich,Landys, Leipheimer) would be brough back by team Discovery...it is almost impossible for him to loose now.

BTW, anyone who saw the time trial today.....do you think Michael Rasmussen has had a worst day in his life....it was so sad watching the kid crumble
ROLL TIDE!!!
 
9V-SPF
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 3):
I know. I just think he has too much savvy to lose it now. The guy is a genius at what he does. It will take a major screwup for him not to win. I do not think the other riders can come up with a Herculean effort to just simply overpower Armstrong.

It is an unwritten law that all riders refrain from attacks that aren´t exclusively launched in order to win the stage on the last day of the Tour. So even if Lance got into trouble (which he won´t of course), nobody would try to benefit from that.
The last stage is traditionally used to celebrate the winner and all riders who made it to the last stage. So there is no way he will lose it now apart from a crash (nobody wishes for that).
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:13 am

I'm not doubting that he will win, as it will take a catastrophic event (fall, injury) to prevent him from winning.

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Yes, he now has number seven.

I was just pointing out that the fat lady has not sung. He does not NOW have number seven...yet.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:32 am

This raises the question...Is he the best ever athlete?
Go big or go home
 
Falcon84
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 7):
This raises the question...Is he the best ever athlete?

Hard to say. You could ask a million people that, and get quite a few different answers. Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Jesse Owens? Teofilo Stevenson? Wilt Chamberlain? Jim Brown? Walter Payton?

Don't think you can say for sure.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
EMBQA
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:45 am

Um, he didn't win yet...one stage to go.

Um, Yes he did. Today was the last day of competitive racing. Attacks are not allowed on the final day. As is Tour tradition on the final day is an easy, leisurely ride into Paris. The riders drink champaine, relax and have fun. The rider wearing the Yellow jersey is given the honor of leading his team and the group onto the Champs Elysees for the parade laps. With one lap to go the sprinters will challenge for the stage win. With nearly a 5 minute lead... It's over. It will be interesting to see if the group honors Lance in anyway during the parade laps.

[Edited 2005-07-23 20:54:01]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 7):
Is he the best ever athlete?

I Abhor this expression..
No matter what Lance can't
"Slam Dunk"
Ace a Par 4
Competitively drive in any motor racing series
knockout mike tyson (in the good days)
throw an 80 yard touchdown pass, nail a 54 yard field goal
(Lame soccer reference alert) do that over the head kick/flip thing like Pele
Run a competitive mile
outswim that thorpedo guy
nail a grand slam for the game 7 "world" series win
Out lift any pro weightlfter

But the people who can excel at those things can't do what Lance has effectively done either.. He is HANDS down the dominant athlete of his game...Schlooping Cheryl Crow isin't a bad benefit either  Wink
This space intentionally left blank
 
iakobos
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:22 am

Well big boys, sorry to break it to you but pro-cycling has its history and its archives.
Once you will be able to remove the flag that impairs your vision, have a look at the rankings, or the wins, or entire careers....and last but not least, ask or listen to Lance himself.

If he was no citizen of the USA you would hardly know his name.
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:41 am

Dubya is coming! Dubya is coming!
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting 9V-SPF (Reply 5):
The last stage is traditionally used to celebrate the winner and all riders who made it to the last stage.

The last stage is very important for the sprinters.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 11):
Well big boys, sorry to break it to you but pro-cycling has its history and its archives.
Once you will be able to remove the flag that impairs your vision, have a look at the rankings, or the wins, or entire careers....and last but not least, ask or listen to Lance himself.

If he was no citizen of the USA you would hardly know his name.

 Yeah sure
How condescending of you to presume that all Americans only watch because of Lance. I have been watching the tour for over 15 years and have been recreationally riding all year long since I can remember. If America is so barren of cycling knowledge then where did Lemond, Armstrong, and Hincapie come from? Besides, it is just a sport so who cares if people cheer for their countrymen. Any other population of a country would do the same.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Airlinerfreak
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 4):
BTW, anyone who saw the time trial today.....do you think Michael Rasmussen has had a worst day in his life....it was so sad watching the kid crumble

It was truely a sad thing to watch.....you just felt so bad for the guy. He had a real chance too. I would hate to be him and whoever the technician guy is or whoever their maintenance man is.

Congrats to Lance
 
iakobos
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:55 pm

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 7):
This raises the question...Is he the best ever athlete?



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Hard to say. You could ask a million people that, and get quite a few different answers. Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Jesse Owens? Teofilo Stevenson? Wilt Chamberlain? Jim Brown? Walter Payton?
Don't think you can say for sure.

Elvis, these gentlemen are the "big boys".

By genuine and honest curiosity, what channel(s) did feature the TdF 15 years ago ?
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:58 pm

lakobos: I'm pretty sure ABC gave coverage on their Wide World of Sports program, but not nearly as good as we are getting presently.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:36 pm

It is now OFFICIAL... SEVEN.

Due to weather conditions Race Officials have ended the race at the first circuit and have also stopped time bonuses. They will finish the 8 circuits at that is it..!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:42 pm

But not without the scare some knew was quite possible. Three Americans just ahead of Armstrong went down and he almost went with them. But it's official. Good luck, and goodbye to one of our best athlets.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
ZRH
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RE: Great Job Lance

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Teofilo Stevenson? Wilt Chamberlain? Jim Brown? Walter Payton?

Who are these guys? They seem not to very known in Europe.
 
9V-SPF
Posts: 1340
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:42 pm

RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 20):
Who are these guys? They seem not to very known in Europe.

Wilt Chamberlain was the only NBA player who scored 100 points in one match. I don´t know the other names either  Embarrassment
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:33 am

Jim Brown and Walter Payton were extremly good American style football players. Stevenson? I do not know.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 10):
Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 7):
Is he the best ever athlete?

I Abhor this expression..

I see your point, Ted, although I wouldn't say I abhor the expression. It's true that he can't do many of the things that other great athletes have done, but cycling is such a different animal. Scorching temperatures, brutal climbs, rectum-puckering 60 mph decents, over-zealous fans...yes cycling is technically a team sport, but no teammate can help you when you run out. Lance just never ran out in the Tour. He one series of bad breaks in 2003, and all he did was become more determined to come back and win.

I would say he is the greatest athlete of all time. For pure endurance, skill, power, intelligence, determination, judgement, and sportsmanship - all necessary qualities in athletics, he is, IMO, peerless.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
iakobos
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 23):
I would say he is the greatest athlete of all time.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....(drum roll)
Pwaaaaaaaat...(the bugle)
Raaaaaise the colouuurs (non-aggressive sarcasm of course)

If he is the geatest athlete of all time, how should we see the guys (between 5 and 12 according to different listings and ways to assess wins) who were better riders than Lance ?

For information, almost all listings concur as to the top 5
1. Merckx 2. Hinault 3. Kelly 4. Indurain 5. Moser

Have a look at what those guys did win and if you are still convinced, I swear I will pay a visit to the local church.

Nationalist oversensitivity is no excuse for philistine ignorance...
 
Logan22L
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 24):
Nationalist oversensitivity is no excuse for philistine ignorance...

Iokobos, you know very little about me if you think I'm a pure nationalist. There are many great things I love about the U.S., and many I do not. I will protect it, but I will not go blindly forth. Enough on that.

I don't care where Armstrong is from. Certainly Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and the others you name are great. I feel that if Lance wanted to ride next year, he would win, and if he wanted to win by 20 minutes, he would. If he wanted to make it a closer race, it would be. He is that dominant. How do we measure greatness? Dominance, coupled with the skill sets I posted earlier. All of the riders you mentioned had these qualities. Certainly 5 titles is dominance; 7 titles is greater dominance.

Since we've limited this discussion to cycling, I will say that, IMO, cycling is the most difficult sport in the world to excell at over time.

Cases could be made for many other athletes, such as Jim Thorpe, whom none of us ever saw.

Just my $0.02.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
dl021
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:28 am

I have seen Lance race both here in Georgia and in France, and I consider myself lucky to have seen one of the great athletes in history do his thing in person.

He deserves our congratulations, and he has my best wished for the future.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
iakobos
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:36 am

Understood Logan, but I have a small problem when it comes to people not giving "honest" credit when and where it is due. Just is just, regardless of flags.
Lance makes the headlines in the US since the late nineties, before that little or nothing was known about pro-cycling there.
It seems quite a few US citizens suddenly woke up to the sport, have an expert opinion on all things around two-wheels and find their local champ has got it all.

In another thread I mentioned that Lance (and his sponsors) is no stranger to the fact that this sport has become so widely popular in so many countries, in a rather short period of time.
He won more TdF than anyone else, but that does not make him the No 1 of pro-cyclism, where a season starts in March and ends in October.
Lance has been the best rider ever...in the month of July.

There is only one person of which it can be said he dominated the sport, from the first to the last race. He won more major tours, major championships and more major classics than anyone else, and by at least a factor 3.
He won 33% of all the races in which he participated, that is 535 wins.
He started winning in March (usually Milan-San Remo) and ended winning in October (Tour of Lombardy). A normal season hunt was 60 wins including two major tours (not only the yellow or pink but also with the green and the dotted jerseys), 3 major classics, a championship.
He was among the very best sprinters, best climbers, best descenders, and the best in time trials, and for the most part he did it without a great team, on his own, attacking.
He was chosen three times as "(world) sporstman of the year" (all sports combined).
His 1-hour record was only beaten by 11 meters many years later by Chris Boardman with the help of technology unavailable to Merckx.
To complete his short cv, he did not even stop in the winters, he won many (tiring) six-day indoor races.

He was aptly called the cannibale, because Merckx could just not stay quiet and leave others to win. He was both admired and hated like no other rider to this day.

Lance is/was a tremendous professional sportsman and I have no doubt he takes a good place in the Pantheon of the history of cyclism.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 16):
By genuine and honest curiosity, what channel(s) did feature the TdF 15 years ago ?

There has been weekend coverage on the networks for quite a while now. By "watching" I also met keeping up with as in magazines, newspapers, etc..

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 24):
For information, almost all listings concur as to the top 5
1. Merckx 2. Hinault 3. Kelly 4. Indurain 5. Moser

"All listings"????? 
I would like to know which listings. It is very conceited to think that you know all of the factors of in the history of cycling to be able to rate the top five. I have no idea if Merckx was better than Armstrong, and neither do you. If we had a Delorean equipped with a flux capacitor and a bike rack we might be able to take Lance back in time to race all of the past winners. Unfortunately we do not-so all of the childish comparing and rating is just opinion and not even a "listing".

I just found a website that says that CBS broadcasted the TDF in the 80's. It certainly wasn't as extensive as OLN now is but it was broadcast.
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8390.0.html

[Edited 2005-07-25 00:22:24]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Logan22L
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 27):
Lance makes the headlines in the US since the late nineties, before that little or nothing was known about pro-cycling there.

I will agree that the U.S. is very provincial in their attitudes, particularly with respect to sports. However, I would add that there are many from other countires who regard American football as a second-class game, and baseball as nothing more than Rounders.

Anyway, I rode competitively for 4-5 years in the late 80s-early 90s. Gred Lemonde was the big name then, and yes, it probably took someeon like that to bring cycling to priminence here. I can assure you that there was a large contingent of cycling devotees in the U.S. since the early 1980s.

I can remember attending the Tour de Trump in the early 90s. I saw a circuit stage in Central Park, NYC, and it was very well attended.

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 27):
Lance has been the best rider ever...in the month of July.

Point very well taken. Perhaps in light of what is perhaps the greatest sporting achievement that I have seen, I put more weight on that than on the other races during the year.

Cheers.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:38 am

I"ve grown from mellow appreciation to greater appreciation for Lance and his efforts. For running (and other workouts I do) his record of performance is inspiring to me.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:39 pm

The morning after - still coming to terms with the fact that Lance is now a retired athlete, but very glad he went at the very top of his sport. It's been an incredible 7 years in the Tour, and I watched in sadness last night knowing it is the end of an extraordinary era.

I only started cycling semi-seriously in 1997 and didn't watch my first Tour on TV until 1999, so in the Tour I haven't seen anyone but Lance win. My finest memory of Lance must be in the Sydney Olympic Games time trial back in 2000, so much power, so fast ...  Smile

Now, next year I hope we can all cheer on an Aussie - Cadel Evans for the Tour de France podium in 2006!!!
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
iakobos
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:07 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
It is very conceited to think that you know all of the factors of in the history of cycling to be able to rate the top five. I have no idea if Merckx was better than Armstrong, and neither do you.

I think I know quite a big bit, and it does not come from tv or magazines.
I did race starting back in '62 and beside I have been connected with the sport, from the inside and at the highest level (hints), even before that.
My first bike was 12kg and had 4 speed, the "richer guys" had 9.5kg machines and 10-speed. We went to the race by bike (often before sunrise) and came back by bike, often more than 60 miles (incl. the race itself) with sun, rain, hail fog or snow, whatever.
Different times, same idea of having "fun".

If you have no idea why Lance is not rated among the (higher) top riders (of all times), I suggest you browse a few knowledgeable sites and look at the achievements of Merckx and others or the career of a Fausto Coppi or Gino Bartali, Sean Kelly...or even better, find a cassette with 1970's-80's races (...before the advent of powerful performance enhancers...).

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 29):
there are many from other countires who regard American football as a second-class game, and baseball as nothing more than Rounders.

Sport is sport, when it is practised by many and the competition is of a high calibre any sport is high ranking exercise (in my book).
Eventhough I went twice to top games and both times fell asleep, I can even acknowledge that cricket can somehow be described as a sport.  Wink
 
Airboeing
Posts: 212
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RE: Great Job Lance

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 31):
I watched in sadness last night knowing it is the end of an extraordinary era

To your consolation, from next year, Lance will be assistant of the Discovery Channel's team director (sorry, don't have his name in mind). So I guess we'll hear from him again.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 31):
Now, next year I hope we can all cheer on an Aussie - Cadel Evans for the Tour de France podium in 2006!!!

Herrr... do you mind waiting for 2007 ? I'd rather see Ulrich in the highest step of the 2006's podium  Silly
Some times my English is purely fonatiks...
 
pilotpip
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RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:13 am

The big question for us true fans in the US is what will become of cycling coverage here now that Lance is gone. Two years ago, we had complete coverage of all three grand tours, the world championships, and the major spring classics. The last two years, OLN has become the Only Lance Network. I hope that what little coverage we have here isn't relegated to weekend highlight shows. If that's the case, I guess I'll have to subscribe to Velo News again.

It's difficult to compare Lance to the cycling greats. I don't think that he's in the same category as the other greats because he specialized in the tour. Even he has said that multiple times. However, in this era, he will be one of the best. Nobody has won more than one grand tour in a year since Pantani did it in the late 90s. Even he was doped up. I don't think we will see a guy like Merckx, Coppi, or Hinault again simply because of the way the sport has changed. It has become much more of a specialists domain. You have guys that race to win the classics, sprinters, and many who train for specific grand tours. We will see what happens, but I think another Cannibal is very unlikely.

Was anybody else saddened by the lackluster presence of Thomas Voekler? That guy stole the show last year and I think we saw him in maybe one or two breakaways this year.

Discovery's director is Johan Brunyeel.
DMI
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
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RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:25 am

I don't think Ullrich has the intrinsic talent, the determination and the team (in the largest sense) to win it, I even doubt he would make the podium again.
If Cadel Evans is in a good team he will make the podium, so will Vinokourov.

Johan Bruyneel is Discovery's team boss (Belgian and former good pro himself).

Fumanchewd
A short extract of Merckx wins...
5 TdF w/34 stages, 3 x green, 2 x polka dot, 111 stages in yellow
5 Giro d'Italia w/25 stages
1 Vuelta w/6 stages
14 medium caliber "tours" (Midi-Libre, Dauphine Libere, Paris-Nice, etc...)
29 major one-day classics (7 x Milan-San Remo, 5 x Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 3 x Paris-Roubaix, 3 x Fleche Wallone, 2 x Flanders tour, 2 x Amstel, etc...)
3 road world championships
4 European indoor championships
17 6-day indoors
1 hour world record holder for 28 years (beaten by 10 meters...)
7 times Super Prestige trophy winner (now called UCI yearly ranking)
and another 390 "lesser" wins

Year / Race participations / Wins
'69 129 43
'70 138 52
'71 120 54 (ie. 45%, almost one win every two starts)
'72 127 50
'73 136 51

I leave you to make the relevant comparisons...
 
dvk
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RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 27):
Lance makes the headlines in the US since the late nineties, before that little or nothing was known about pro-cycling there.

No, we've known about pro-cycling since at least 1985, when Greg LeMond won his first of three TdF titles.  cheerful 
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7797
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:16 am

No, we've known about pro-cycling since at least 1985, when Greg LeMond won his first of three TdF titles

Actually in 1985 Greg LeMond finished second to Bernard Hinault. That was the year Hinault promised LeMond the win since he worked so hard in 1984. Hinault broke his promise and LeMond was forced by his team not to challenge the Champion and allow him to win.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
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RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:01 am

Lakobos: Merckx did not seem to have a life other than cycling. Name some others that have done better than Armstrong. We Americans are just showing some pride and appreciation for his accomplishments.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 38):
We Americans are just showing some pride and appreciation for his accomplishments.

Fine (for the pride)...but not only you (for the appreciation): every person with some real knowledge about this sport fully appreciates what Lance did, and there are quite many here on the old continent.
From March till October, for the last 45 years or so, our TV channels are full with man-powered two-wheel races (lengthy direct transmissions that is).
In many countries it is the 2nd or 3rd most popular sport. I sincerely doubt that one can find a single Belgian (male) who would be unaware of what Paris-Roubaix is or 54 x 13 means.

It is also clear that, in part thanks to him (Lance), the sport has taken a new dimension.
Everyone will benefit from this...if it is not kidnapped by powerful interests and kept under the (wise) umbrella of a single organisation (see what I mean ?).

I forecast that if the interest from US sponsors and riders (and consequently audiences) continues to grow, even if only a little, we will see seasons being splitted between an American period (and races) and an European period.
There will be more teams competing in different leagues, more sponsors, more races, more riders.
Give it 20 years and we will see (fictitious) Chang Tse Lai (CHN) winning the tour of California before Raul Benitez from Paraguay and Stuart Mc Tavish (AUS).

By the way, in the early days (1890-1920) cycling was as internationalized as it is today, with plenty of Americans around.


Right, Eddy lived exclusively on two wheels and he is still on it with his son and his business, he is by all means an extra-terrestrial.

Terrestrial guys: Hinault, Kelly, Anquetil, Moser, Bartali, Gimondi, Zoetemelk, Coppi, De Vlaeminck, Van Looy, Poulidor, Indurain, Jalabert, Rominger, Binda, Bobet.
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
Posts: 1740
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RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:47 am

Let's get tough. How about a Tour de America? West coast to the East Coast. Let's make a commitment. I think Lance will suport it.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:55 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 40):
Let's get tough.

Let's not and say we did  Yeah sure
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iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:05 am

Btw, does anyone know which race organizers offer the highest prize money (after the TdF of course) ?
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...Tour of Qatar !
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:10 am

Why not,Ted? Afraid it might be welcomed?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 43):
Afraid it might be welcomed?

Nope, afraid that foreigners will win it... all the time.

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 43):
Why not,Ted?

It's not Football
It's not Baseball
It's not Basketball
It's not Hockey
It's not College Football
It's not College Basketball
It's not College Hockey
It's not Lacross
It's not NASCAR
It's not IRL
It's not CART
It's not Bowling
It's not Texas 7 card hold 'em
It's not Golf (though it's a VERY close second)
It's not going to be something relevant to Americans until we all have to ride bicycles to get everywhere because we ran out of oil

I hazzard a guess that besides the fact we respect what Lance has done in the first place, the only reason we care that he WINS is that he's beating the French at their 'own' game!!!
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Blackbird1331
Topic Author
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:33 am

We will not know until we try.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
dragon-wings
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:55 am

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:08 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 40):
Let's get tough. How about a Tour de America? West coast to the East Coast. Let's make a commitment. I think Lance will suport it.

Actually they had a North American Tour De France type race called the Tour Du Pont. It lasted from 1991 to 1996 and was held in the mid atlantic states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_Du_Pont
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:24 am

There are also a couple of major multi day events such as the Tour of Georgia, which is becomming a prominent stage race with international attendance, and the Sea Otter Classic which is a huge festival with many road, moutnain, and track races held around the Laguna Seca area. There is also an endurance race every year coast to coast called the Race Across America, however that one is not as popular.

I've worked in a bike shop for years and I can tell you that while racing may not be as popular in the US as it is in Europe, Lance has caused great exposure and increased the numbers of recreational riders here. A few years ago I could go on a weekly group ride and see about 40-50 people on it. Today There are an easy 75-100 on that same ride every monday night.

TedTAce,

Funny that you mention your fears of "foreigners" winning cycling events. Lets see about those other sports you mentioned. The NBA sees more and more NBA players from Europe every year, and I expect to see more from Asia as the result of Yao Ming. The majority of Hockey players in the US are Canadian or European. CART and IRL are both dominated by foreign drivers. Golf is an international sport that just so happens to be dominated by an American right now. Texas Hold'em isn't a sport and Lacrosse is even more fringe than cycling.
DMI
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: London - Americans And Muslims Comment

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:42 pm

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 35):
A short extract of Merckx wins...
5 TdF w/34 stages, 3 x green, 2 x polka dot, 111 stages in yellow
5 Giro d'Italia w/25 stages
1 Vuelta w/6 stages
14 medium caliber "tours" (Midi-Libre, Dauphine Libere, Paris-Nice, etc...)
29 major one-day classics (7 x Milan-San Remo, 5 x Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 3 x Paris-Roubaix, 3 x Fleche Wallone, 2 x Flanders tour, 2 x Amstel, etc...)
3 road world championships
4 European indoor championships
17 6-day indoors
1 hour world record holder for 28 years (beaten by 10 meters...)
7 times Super Prestige trophy winner (now called UCI yearly ranking)
and another 390 "lesser" wins


Thats great but those accolades and titles don't really mean anything in relation to modern cycling. Wilt Chamberlain (NBA player) once scored over 100 points in a game. Does that mean that he's better than Michael Jordon? Absolutely not. The game had not developed into the athletic game that it is now. If he had been playing against a 2005 NBA team he would have been lucky to get 40. Since then the NBA has become a much more international game with quicker and stronger competition.

In the same way cycling has only recently become a much more international sport, you cannot deny that it was primarily European during Merckx. There is more competition from all over the world and the skills of the bicyclists have increased with nutritional knowledge as well as technological advances such as wind tunnel testing. I'm pretty sure Lance's form is more aerodynamic than Merckx was. All I am trying to say is that comparing cycling from different eras is like comparing apples and oranges.

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 32):
I think I know quite a big bit, and it does not come from tv or magazines.
I did race starting back in '62 and beside I have been connected with the sport, from the inside and at the highest level (hints), even before that.

Care to race? I'm in the best bike shape of my life fright now. Smile
But I suppose having raced in the 60's the only doping scandal that you would be involved in would involve Viagra. Wow!
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Great Job Lance

Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 48):
In the same way cycling has only recently become a much more international sport, you cannot deny that it was primarily European during Merckx.

Another misconception based on a vacuum. (check tablets before 1920)
Road and track racing have always been primarily European (West for the pros, East and West for the "amateurs"), correct so far, and you could add it still is primarily European. This is decided by sponsors since the 60's.
Yet, other (non-EU) nations have been represented at all times.
Recent pro cycling saw the advent of Colombian riders, the East/Central Europeans, a few West Asians, and more Americans and Australians than years ago.


Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 48):

Thats great but those accolades and titles don't really mean anything in relation to modern cycling.

So, because today we call it "modern" you mean is is tougher ?

As long as all riders at any given time ride similar cycles, use similar training methods, follow similar diets, they are in the same boat, be it 1930 or 2005.
What changes with better this and that is that the riders (all of them) are much better prepared and supported (and paid) than before, which in turn make their life a little easier and the pospects of a long and rewarding career more likely.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 48):
Care to race? I'm in the best bike shape of my life fright now.

Frine for now, but you will pass like everyone else when the day comes.
You might as well start learning the meaning of the words humility, respect and honesty before the great one knocks at your door, it helps in society.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 48):
But I suppose having raced in the 60's the only doping scandal that you would be involved in would involve Viagra.

Indeed, doping (at least as it -un-known today) did not exist.
Related research started at the beginning of the '90s and is doing very well.
I have no problem with it, as long as everybody is on the same foot, but this is clearly not the case.
On what soup (riders jargon for the "stuff") do you feed ?

Viagra ? no Snotty, everything is a matter of long and patient training.
You might learn that as well.

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