tfsphoto
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Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:33 am

The dude the police shot on the train in london the otherday, was totally unconnected to the terrorist attacks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711021.stm

After being shot 5 times in the head.. i think they dropped a bollock with this one.

Lew
 
flylondon
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting TFSPhoto (Thread starter):
i think they dropped a bollock with this one.

I don't agree, as regretable as this man's death is, I still fully support the police in their descison to shoot. This man emerged from a house they were monitoring, the day after an attempted terrorist attack, wearing a thich coat on a hot summer day. He then proceeded to a tube station 1 stop away from the previous days inncidents and when challenged by the police chose to jump over the barriers and run onto a tube train. Under the circumstances I believe he must hold a great deal of the responsibility for his death.
 
backfire
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:44 am

Certainly doesn't sound entirely innocent - he practically asked for it. Now just wait for all the PC apologists to start telling us that we have to have a signed confession from a suicide bomber before police are allowed to stop him killing a couple of dozen people.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:44 am

I have to agree that the police did the right thing! Why was he running once ordered to stop.
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LeonB1985
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:45 am

I wonder whether the police will release CCTV footage from the underground station? Clearly must provide a good insight into what actually happened as the man passed through the station to get to the train where he was shot.

With regard to the weather, I didn't find it hot yesterday. I believe it was overcast for most of the day and I almost wore a (padded!) jacket as I travelled to work at LHR...

Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
Under the circumstances I believe he must hold a great deal of the responsibility for his death.

Not sure if I can fully agree with that. Would he have known that the house/block where he lived was under surveillance? Did he know the men trying to stop him were police? I guess we'll never know these things.

[Edited 2005-07-23 23:46:57]
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tfsphoto
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:47 am

I dont fault them for his death at all.. but shot in the head 5 times? thats a little insane.. obviously they didnt wish to speak to him..
 
flylondon
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting TFSPhoto (Reply 5):
but shot in the head 5 times? thats a little insane..

According to the BBC analyst I was listening to yesterday, the police were likely using low velocity bullets to minimise the risks to people nearby, hence so many shots. As for shooting in the head, apparently Israel had advised that shooting suspects in the chest, as is normal to incapacitate but not kill, may set off explosives.
 
backfire
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting TFSPhoto (Reply 5):
I dont fault them for his death at all.. but shot in the head 5 times? thats a little insane.. obviously they didnt wish to speak to him..

If they had reason to suspect he might be about to detonate a bomb, there's no other option than to put him down and make sure he doesn't get up again.
 
mhodgson
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:05 am

Justified, IMO. If police ask you to stop, you stop. If you run, they follow. If you do this a day after a 2nd terror attack, a fortnight after a first, you are asking for it. The police perhaps were a little hasty, however if he had been a suicide bomber, and had the train he boarded been destroyed, the police would no dount have come under intense criticism. Also, he had to be prevented from detonating any potential bombs. Simply incapacitatying him would have been ineffective if he had been able to detonate a bomb.
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QANTAS077
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:07 am

play the tape! i'm sure we're all eager to see what the police have told us is supposed to have happend, the guy was a Brazilian electrician, what are the chances he spoke limited or no english?!? guess we'll never know, shooting up a train station is as terrifiying as a terrorist setting off bombs but it's seen as being acceptable?!?
 
aloges
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting Backfire (Reply 2):
Certainly doesn't sound entirely innocent - he practically asked for it.

Yeah, just like women walking alone at dark ask for being raped.  sarcastic 

Even though both are utterly irresponsible (might as well say "stupid"), there's no justification for either. I'm just glad the police had the balls to call this a "tragedy", which seems to be more than anyone can expect from a.net's armchair terrorism experts.

This is also an example of the popular "chain of events" you hear about every time a plane crashes, and of over-reaction due to terrorism. Those who truly are to blame for the man's death are the terrorists screwing people's and peoples' minds.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:10 am

Well, I have to agree with the rest of you guys here. As much as this event is lamentable, running from cops (who are already under lot's of pressure) into the Tube given the recent events is not the smartest idea. Especially not following police orders.

Btw, the media down here is reporting that he was a legal resident, lived in London for four years, worked as an electrician and spoke english well.

PPVRA

[Edited 2005-07-24 00:12:19]
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gamps
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:13 am

Justified, IMO. If police ask you to stop, you stop

Cops were in civvies. Guy must have thought that they were trying to rob him.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:17 am

Hey, I'm a liberal, and I take a good deal of crap about it: you don't support our troops, you're soft on terroists...

As tragic as this is, I agree that at some point, you've got to take immediate action in a situation such as this. Anyone should realize that, if confronted by authorities in the aftermath of what has happened in London, you'd better use a dose or two of common sense. Suspicious behavior/clothing, coupled with where he was coming from, running from the police, I'd have probably done the same, if I were a policeman, and shot him.

If the reports are accurate, that he was not connected, why did he run??? There are no doubt more facts to come out. Strange, and sad.

And, BTW, I do support our TROOPS, I just don't support our administration; I also think that fairly convicted terrorists should pay for it dearly and that all fair and reasonable efforts to curb terroism should be implemented.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:19 am

The problem is that the police are currently in a no win situation. The fact is that there is a militant fifth column operating in Britain (not just there), which is hiding within the normal population. These fifth columnists are seeking to sacrifdice their lives for what they consider their cause and to cause extreme bloodshed.
Frankly, I don't see any other way to stop a determined suicide bomber than to kill him, even though I would prefer to capture him alive, if only to gather intelligence about the people in the background of his group.

If the police reacts hard and accidentally they kill an innocent person (as happened yesterday), they get blamed for incompetence.
If they hold back and a terrorist manages to blow up a train, killing many people, they get blamed as well.

Jan
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LeonB1985
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:27 am

It's a no win situation for the police, I think that's clear. They did what they believed to be right and in the interests of public safety.

However, am I the only person who would think twice if people in civvies shouted at me to stop? Yeah, naturally I'd stop if a uniformed police officer asked me to, but anyone can in normal clothes can shout "stop, police!" before proceeding to give me a good kicking, stealing my bank cards, etc.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
I don't agree, as regretable as this man's death is, I still fully support the police in their descison to shoot.

Second!

...when someone, or correction: mulitple people, with M16s tell you to stop-- yo ass needs to stop. End of story.
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luv2fly
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:38 am

I just heard on NBC news that the victim was an illegal alien who did not speak or understand the English language, good reason to learn the language of your host country!
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n229nw
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting LeonB1985 (Reply 4):
Would he have known that the house/block where he lived was under surveillance? Did he know the men trying to stop him were police?

EXACTLY. Those are the big questions that are nagging me.

I agree the police are in a truly tough situation though; don't know what I would have done if I'd been the one with the gun and a spilt-second decision. A lot would depend on what happened really beforehand...

[Edited 2005-07-24 00:43:36]
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jetjack74
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 17):
I just heard on NBC news that the victim was an illegal alien who did not speak or understand the English language, good reason to learn the language of your host country!

In California or Florida, you get shot if you do speak English. If you don't, you get driving licences.
Made from jets!
 
LeonB1985
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 18):

EXACTLY. Those are the big questions that are nagging me.

I agree the police are in a truly tough situation though; don't know what I would have done if I'd been the one with the gun and a spilt-second decision. A lot would depend on what happened really beforehand...

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thinks this. Things simply aren't black and white. It's all very well saying "oh he shouldn't have run, his house was under surveillance, etc." but how much did this guy actually know about what was going on? Presumably very little. Welcome to my respected user listed N229NW.

[Edited 2005-07-24 00:57:53]
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soyuzavia
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 17):
I just heard on NBC news that the victim was an illegal alien who did not speak or understand the English language, good reason to learn the language of your host country!

NBC is wrong. He lived in London for 3 years legally and spoke English.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 16):
Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
I don't agree, as regretable as this man's death is, I still fully support the police in their descison to shoot.

Second!

...when someone, or correction: mulitple people, with M16s tell you to stop-- yo ass needs to stop. End of story.

I can't help but notice, Freddie, that I said almost the exact same thing as FlyLondon and as you, yet you apparently chose to ignore it. Perhaps I don't need things read to me all the time.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
PPVRA
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 17):
I just heard on NBC news that the victim was an illegal alien who did not speak or understand the English language, good reason to learn the language of your host country!



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 21):

NBC is wrong. He lived in London for 3 years legally and spoke English.

Exactly, the info down here is the same.

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:15 am

there is no fucken excuse for police in civilian clothing pumping 5 bulletts into a mans head while he is pinned to the ground! ever heard of handcuffs? none whatsoever! if someone in civies was chasing me with an M16 i'd bloody run for my life too! how the hell are you going to know if they are police or not, then when they finally catch you and pin you to the ground the fire 5 shots into your head! this is the scary part, "Analysts said police were operating under secret new guidelines, codenamed Operation Kratos, allowing them to aim for the head if they believe there was a threat to the public." "To give license to people to shoot to kill just like that, on the basis of suspicion, is very frightening," god help you if your running to work and your late for the train!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:23 am

A terrible blunder by the police, someone should lose their job and career as a result of this. What needs to be done now is seek answers as to how and why the police identified this man as a suspect. It would not look good for the Met if they decided to chase every brown-skinned immigrant who acts a bit shifty. The only explanation i can think of as to why the man started running away from the police is because he panicked, or by thinking he was being chased by a criminal gang, since they were plain-clothed police officers. Either way it is a trajedy and a PR disaster for the Met.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:36 am

Fleeing the police when told to stop - having exited from a structure under surveillance in connection with a Terrorist Attack - an ACTUAL terrorist attack, not some bullshit intel - bad call on his part . . .

Good call, Police.

What I find amusing is that I'll bet everyone who says the cops royally screwed up would be just as pissed off had they let the bastard go and he turned out to be a Real terrorist . . . and tomorrow he blew up a train.

Cops, damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Nuff said.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
LeonB1985
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:41 am

Imagine the outrage if this had happened to a British citizen in a foreign country. The Sun newspaper's headline would probably read differently to Saturday's ONE DOWN... THREE TO GO.



And yes, the headline does have a double meaning, depending how the reader chooses to interpret it in conjunction with the bullet points below ('Bus bomber held' and 'Suspect shot dead'). Inciting racial hatred? Never!  irked  Now how many other Asian/Muslim homes will be set ablaze?
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QANTAS077
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Fleeing the police when told to stop - having exited from a structure under surveillance in connection with a Terrorist Attack - an ACTUAL terrorist attack, not some bullshit intel - bad call on his part . . .

then when they pin him down they pump 5 bullets in his head, even worse call on the polices part wouldn't you think? surely they could have assessed his risk factor when they caught up with him? with all the crap going down in London currently do you really blame hom for running when cops in civies with M16's are chasing him, imagine what was going through his mind!?! he may well have thought the police were terrorists also?!?! you can't just have a rule where anyone acting suspicious is shot dead...what the hell are we coming to?!
 
tbar220
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Fleeing the police when told to stop - having exited from a structure under surveillance in connection with a Terrorist Attack - an ACTUAL terrorist attack, not some bullshit intel - bad call on his part . . .

Good call, Police.

The police were in plain clothes, how did he know they were cops? Now we don't know if they showed their badges or just yelled at him to stop. They had orders to shoot a person if they think he/she was a threat to the public. The man may not appear to have known they were police, his only clue being that they were brandishing weapons.

Also, I don't know how this works, but if plain clothes officers are monitoring (surveillance) a location, will the person living there know it? How do we know if he was aware his home (or whatever it was) was under surveillance?

The police had him pinned to the ground. They could have cuffed him, hell they could have even knocked him unconcious if they thought him such a threat anywas. Instead they shot him in the head and the chest. This was more than one police officer against one man.

This was over the top and completely unneccesary. Use handcuffs, pepper spray, taser, whatever. Once they had him pinned down, I don't see where he was a threat anymore. Shooting him multiple times in the head and chest wasn't necessary.
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LHSebi
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 28):
then when they pin him down they pump 5 bullets in his head, even worse call on the polices part wouldn't you think? surely they could have assessed his risk factor when they caught up with him? with all the crap going down in London currently do you really blame hom for running when cops in civies with M16's are chasing him, imagine what was going through his mind!?! he may well have thought the police were terrorists also?!?! you can't just have a rule where anyone acting suspicious is shot dead...what the hell are we coming to?!

Could not agree with you more! This guy really seemed to have no idea what was going on! Witnesses say that the look on the guy's face before they shot him was sheer terror. Would a suicide bomber that was being apprehended look terrified, or rather angry?

I hope some people loose their job over this incident, because if there are cops like these running around London, I would be scared to ever return.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Fleeing the police when told to stop - having exited from a structure under surveillance in connection with a Terrorist Attack - an ACTUAL terrorist attack, not some bullshit intel - bad call on his part . .

Give me a break. 1) How on earth can he know that a man in civilian clothes is a police officer? If someone without a uniform runs towards me with a gun, telling me to stop, I would be scared shitless too! 2) Do you think they announce to the inhabitants of a structure that their building is under surveillance? Common...think!
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting LeonB1985 (Reply 27):
Imagine the outrage if this had happened to a British citizen in a foreign country. The Sun newspaper's headline would probably read differently to Saturday's ONE DOWN... THREE TO GO.

Murdoch trash, you can't expect to much more from him!
 
LeonB1985
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:25 am

Tbar220 and LHSebi, I agree with you both. As I've been saying all along, the guy in question most probably won't have known his house was under surveillance and may well not have known that the people chasing him were police officers. In his eyes, it may well have been that there were unknown people after him and his gut instinct was just to run for it and to try to get away from them. A tragedy that this cost him his life. My thoughts are with his relatives.
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satx
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
I still fully support the police in their descison to shoot.



Quoting Backfire (Reply 2):
he practically asked for it.



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
the police did the right thing!



Quoting TFSPhoto (Reply 5):
I dont fault them for his death at all..



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Good call, Police.

If I were a praying man, I'd pray to god that each and every one of you would eventually be forced to make the same decisions this dead man had to make. I wonder how many of you would be alive and well to tell the story afterward. Perhaps policemen in plain clothes with guns are a common sight in your life, but I would certainly be caught off-guard by this.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
What I find amusing is that I'll bet everyone who says the cops royally screwed up would be just as pissed off had they let the bastard go and he turned out to be a Real terrorist . . . and tomorrow he blew up a train.

Your apparent desire for irony doesn't make it so, nor is it terribly 'amusing' to claim that those who honestly disagree with you are nothing but a bunch of loud-mouthed hypocrites.

Edited for typo.

[Edited 2005-07-24 03:40:26]
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soyuzavia
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 25):
Either way it is a trajedy and a PR disaster for the Met.

Already the UK authorities are in damage control and passing responsibility by claiming that this guy is a victim of terrorism. No, this Brazilian is the victim of a government which was all too willing to totally disregard a person's rights to due process.

And don't anyone give me the shit that I don't know what things are like in London at the moment, because we all know that London has lived with terrorism from the IRA for a few decades, and I don't recall any IRA 'suspect' ever being mown down in cold blood in London in such a way before.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:53 am

There is a wide range of possible things that might turn out--and I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions. If the police acted properly, and the man clearly knew they were police and had some reason to run away from them, forcing a split-second decision, then this was just a horrible tragic mistake very forgivable in a tense climate. If, on the other hand, it turns out that the man was minding his own business and found unidentified armed men chasing him (thinking they would mug him--maybe even thinking they were racist thugs out for revenge after the bombing, who knows?), then indeed the police will have failed miserably. And if it turns out that the shooter was in a pub last night talking about how he'd like to kill some "f**ing pakis" then woe betide. Until we know more about what really happened--which will take a while--we're just speculating randomly.

Quoting LeonB1985 (Reply 27):
ONE DOWN... THREE TO GO.

Ever since Rebekkah Wade took over the Sun, it has become worse than the Mail--and even more scary it sells more copies . I've seen so many times when without being overtly racist, they are so stupidly simplistic and prejudiced in their headlines about immigration, asylum, Roma, etc. that they must have the blood of some race-hate crimes on their hands...

Anyway, thanks for the respect too.

[Edited 2005-07-24 03:56:26]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
ltbewr
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:05 am

If recent reports are true that the man shot by police on Friday in London was not a terrorist, then we may be in more serious problems than just terrorism. What happened there is similar to a police car chase of a suspected criminal as often happens in places like Los Angeles and other city in the USA or a guy goes to his pocket to get a cell phone and the cops think it is a gun. Cops get pumped with adrenline and hypersensitive to get the criminal. Unfortntally, innocents may get killed or seriously injured. The cops look bad, it hurts their relations with the community affiliated with the shot person (look at the terrible relations of blacks in the USA and the UK with police in some places)
Another problem is that human nature wants quick and summary justice of potential or accused criminals, even if it means death of some innocents - they want their revenge or the prevention of a potential terror act in the eyes of informed police officers.
We have a terrible mix of fear, revenge seeking, hyped up cops and pressure from the public and politicans. That may be what the terrorists want - for us to overdo the reaction and fight among ourselves, rather than deal with what triggers more attacks. We have seen this with the IRA, and wack wing terror groups throughout the world. There are few good alternatives, but they must be considered. It is a vicous circle.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:08 am

As taut as nerves have got to be in London right now, I don't fault the police one bit. Sounds like this guy was acting a little strange, and a little strang in an area under surveillence, and in a tube, well, right now, that will get you killed right quick.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 9):
the guy was a Brazilian electrician, what are the chances he spoke limited or no english?!?

According to the article, he's lived legally in the UK for over 3 years. I suspect his English was just fine.

Quoting LeonB1985 (Reply 4):
Did he know the men trying to stop him were police?



Quoting Gamps (Reply 12):
Cops were in civvies. Guy must have thought that they were trying to rob him.



Quoting LeonB1985 (Reply 20):
but how much did this guy actually know about what was going on?

From the article, boys-maybe you should read it closer:

4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead.

He spoke English, and it clearly sounds like they identified themselves as police officers. They made the right call, boys.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 18):
don't know what I would have done if I'd been the one with the gun and a spilt-second decision.

If it's in an area where terrorists have struck-twice-recently, you use the gun, and don't take chances.

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 25):
A terrible blunder by the police, someone should lose their job and career as a result of this.

Wrong, and pretty naive. 1. A terrible blunder by this guy, running away from police in an area of a recent terrorist attack. 2. No one should lose their job, for erring on the side of caution. You're "blame the police" attitude is pretty shameful.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 28):
surely they could have assessed his risk factor when they caught up with him?

Does the full moon increase the amount of naivte in the world?

Hello, McFly!!! You have dude running away from police, in an area where terrorism has recently occurred TWICE. The dude doesn't respond to orders from the police. What the frack do you want them to do? Tap him on the shoulder, and hope a fracking bomb doesn't go off!!! Get real hear man!!

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, some people just don't have a flying clue.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 24):
ever heard of handcuffs?

Ever heard of bombs strapped to the waist? You need a serious, serious dose of reality, my friend.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 35):
Already the UK authorities are in damage control and passing responsibility by claiming that this guy is a victim of terrorism.

In a sense, he absolutely is. He's a victim of a nation, on pins and needles, after two attacks on their transit system, and this numbnut runs in there, and ignores police orders? Russophile, you're not going to get much sympathy for the guy or your views from me.
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:09 am

Ooops! And they call the Americans trigger happy? Fact is, if this had happened in the U.S., people on here would be ALL OVER the Americans screaming outrage. Not seeing that here. Why?

Rule is that you do not run from the police. Not here, not in London, not in the U.S.

Unfortunate, but put this death on the heads of the terrorists and no one else.
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satx
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting 787 (Reply 39):
Fact is, if this had happened in the U.S., people on here would be ALL OVER the Americans screaming outrage.

With our domestic media filled to the brim with naive Pollyanna's who refuse to ask the tough questions 999 times out of 1000, I wonder if such an event would even be covered, let alone result in any legitimate explanation from the police or government officials. However, I have a funny feeling we'll get a chance to find out before too long. Maybe it will make the police blotter page and perhaps a few liberal blogs before the story is long forgotten. Look at the un-American secret detentions and military tribunals over in Guantanamo that receive almost no serious investigative journalism from the American domestic media as the precedent.

Quoting 787 (Reply 39):
Unfortunate, but put this death on the heads of the terrorists and no one else.

No need for introspection now that terrorism is on the scene, eh? The idea that any mistake on the part of law enforcement, including unnecessary manslaughter, is now 'on the heads of the terrorists' is a seriously disturbing concept to me.
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Falcon84
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 40):
The idea that any mistake on the part of law enforcement, including unnecessary manslaughter, is now 'on the heads of the terrorists' is a seriously disturbing concept to me.

One problem here-there was no mistake, except by this man who had a brain fart, and it cost him his life.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:14 pm

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 30):
How on earth can he know that a man in civilian clothes is a police officer? If someone without a uniform runs towards me with a gun, telling me to stop, I would be scared shitless too! 2) Do you think they announce to the inhabitants of a structure that their building is under surveillance? Common...think!

Tis you that is failing to engage your cranial lobe sir . . . NO, they obviously didn't announce to the occupants of the house were surveilling them, and I don't believe they shot anyone in the house.

They tailed this clown to a Subway station . . . ordered him to stop . . . he failed to do so. I'm quite sure they didn't just holler hey, hold it there!!! I'm sure they identified themselves as police officers. They could have been wearing pink tights and a tutu as long as thy identified themselves. . . .

Quoting SATX (Reply 33):
Perhaps policemen in plain clothes with guns are a common sight in your life, but I would certainly be caught off-guard by this.

You don't get out much then do you. . . .

Quoting SATX (Reply 33):
Your apparent desire for irony doesn't make it so, nor is it terribly 'amusing' to claim that those who honestly disagree with you are nothing but a bunch of loud-mouthed hypocrites.

Didn't call anyone a hypocrite - but certainly if the boot fits, wear it! Some of the same folk here would have a  hissyfit  if this guy turned out to be a bomber and the police didn't stop him . . . holy shit I can visualize the posts now . . . and damn near pick the poster(s). . . and yes, it's fuckin' amusing - the hypocracy . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
One problem here-there was no mistake, except by this man who had a brain fart

 checkmark  A bit less eloquently phrased, but that's the bottom line. Police say stop, you stop. You don't run for the train . . .
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satx
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
One problem here-there was no mistake, except by this man who had a brain fart, and it cost him his life.

Those are the kind of confident statements that would seem to require the whole story to be known before they could be made. How can we really know the whole story now that one side is dead? I'm sure we all have our views of what exactly happened, but since it will be impossible to get both sides it would seem to be more responsible to not speak in such absolute terms at this stage.
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satx
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):
You don't get out much then do you. . . .

I have reason to believe that there are plain clothes officers on some of the planes I fly on. However, the number of times that I have ever seen a plain clothes officer brandish his gun and shout something at me is ZERO. It's easy for me to say, well, I'd just stand there and wait to see what the folks claiming to be policemen were up to. However, I'm not 100% positive just what exactly I would do.

It's possible that this man had something on him or his record that was illegal or perhaps he was just being stupid. However, in any case, I would prefer not to open and shut the case so quickly after having heard only one side of the story. Since the other side is now dead, I think it would make sense to wait a little longer to see what else may come out of this.
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soyuzavia
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
What I find amusing is that I'll bet everyone who says the cops royally screwed up would be just as pissed off had they let the bastard go and he turned out to be a Real terrorist . . . and tomorrow he blew up a train.

What I find funny is that this is one of the most erroneous comments I've read. There is a difference between detaining a 'suspect' and questioning them, and between pushing a 'suspect' to the ground and when offering no resistance shooting him in the head five times at point blank range.

No-one has suggested that they should have let him go without questioning or detaining him. If he was a 'suspect' fair enough. But you do not shoot a 'suspect' five times in the head without a thing called evidence.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 22):
yet you apparently chose to ignore it.

Why the self-importance cher?
...I didn't even notice it  Silly
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Falcon84
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 45):
What I find funny is that this is one of the most erroneous comments I've read.

And you'd be the first one to scream at the police, as ANC alluded to.
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Falcon84
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 48):
of course your simple way of looking at it is just perfect,

You don't complicate it, my friend, when you're the policeman, and you may be right behind a terrorist, and you KNOW you're right behind a guy who is ignoring police orders to stop, in an area where terrorism is occured.

Stop being so freaking naive about this.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 48):
old saying...assumption is the mother of all fuckups! the police and intelligence services royaly fuckedup on this occasion!

Only in the eyes of the wilfully naive, my friend. Everyone else is on the side of those who had to make a snap decision. You don't seem to understand that part.
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soyuzavia
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:42 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 47):

And you'd be the first one to scream at the police, as ANC alluded to.

Would I? Why do you like to assume what I would do Alpha?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 49):

Only in the eyes of the wilfully naive, my friend. Everyone else is on the side of those who had to make a snap decision. You don't seem to understand that part.

Here you go assuming again? Everyone is on their side? Rubbish. The intelligence (for lack of a better word) must have been piss poor that they could not ascertain who this person was beforehand, what flat he came out of, etc, etc. And you call others naive?  Yeah sure
 
Falcon84
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RE: Man Shot Dead In London, Not Connected

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 50):
Would I? Why do you like to assume what I would do Alpha?

Because that's just how you are. You scream at them for making a split-second decision, and you'll second guess them no matter what they do, Russophile. That's just how you are.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 50):
The intelligence (for lack of a better word) must have been piss poor that they could not ascertain who this person was beforehand, what flat he came out of, etc, etc. And you call others naive?

Yes, I'm sure Scotland Yard has a handle on every freaking person in the U.K., so they know him instantly on site, and whether he's just a stupid bloke from Brazil, who lost his head, and is running in the Tube for no apparent reason.

Can you put your utter naivete any more succinctly?
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