avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:00 am

Even before the events of 7/7 and 7/21, it was clear to many security observers and analysts that the UK was setting itself up for terror troubles by permitting an environment where Islamist extremist terrorism could flourish.

Here's an excerpt from the New York Times:

"At the same time, British authorities are facing unusually frank criticism from officials and leaders of some Muslim states about their tolerance of radical Islamist clerics and others on their soil.

Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador, said in a radio interview on Friday that it was a "true criticism" to say Britain had offered sanctuary too easily. "Allowing them to go on using the hospitality and the generosity of the British people to emanate from here such calls for killing and such I think is wrong."

President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan also noted that some Islamist groups banned in Pakistan "operate with impunity" in Britain."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/in...400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

I understand the desire to have a free, diverse, and open society, but IMHO, it still does not excuse the lacksidaisical attitude by the UK in its security and immigration policies which allow terror cells to develop and thrive. What say you on this calamity, and what policy issues should the UK consider in order to ameliorate the situation?
Live life to the fullest.
 
Catatonic
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:58 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:37 am

You know what, we are as guilty of harboring terrorists as Iraq! These hardline clerics take the p*ss out of Britain's human rights legislation. One guy publicly applauded 9/11 and 7/7 and yet still lives her on state benefits as we wont deport him to Jordan because they will slice his fat ass up. He uses legal aide money to fight the government who want to haul his ass out and he basically wins the right to stay here on human rights legislation.

[Edited 2005-07-24 02:39:42]
Equally Cursed and Blessed.
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
He uses legal aide money to fight the government who want to haul his ass out and he basically wins the right to stay here on human rights legislation.

Dont you just love European Democracy... **sigh**
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:02 am

The government have tried to deport the fat, fanatic, benefit junkie turds at least 20 times in the past few years, hitting a wall of legal challenges each time.
One was banged up in Belmarsh, the Law Lords got him released.

Over here, many (self appointed) Muslim spokesmen have bitched about how 'we are being harassed' and such like, so how the dictator of Pakistan (who provides a few of the massive numbers of Islamic loons there up for trial everytime there is an attack or a state visit, just to show what a good boy he is being), can say they operate with impunity is beyond me.
Which is it?

That's the dirty little secret of the War On Terror, no way that Musharraf could really crack down, too many of them with too much support, as it is he's faced assassination attempts from them, the sinister Pakistani Secret Service (who helped get the Taliban in business) are likely deeply compromised too.

While it's true that human rights leglislation has been used to protect the scumbags here, I think the recent attacks will change this some.
I was surprised to see the director of Liberty not jump in with instant condemnation over the tragic shooting of the Brazilian man at Stockwell, rather she accepted that it was a tragedy for everyone, including the no doubt frightened Officer and that all the facts need to be known before a rush to judgement. Since Liberty have been the leading lights in previously protecting some of the mad Mullahs from legal sanction, have worked hard to block much of the governments Anti Terror leglislation, this might indicate a change in attitude.
I might be being too cynical, but I reckon many of Liberty are users of London Buses and Tubes.

Certainly those who have been saying the Government have been hyping up the terror threat these last 4 years, for some kind of political reason, have been very quiet recently.
Blair, and his government, have bored us all silly since 2001 warning of the threat!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:20 am

I dont' think it is so much 'head in the sand', but there are serious conflicts with laws as to religious rights in the the USA, the UK and most Western/Westernized countries. They have strong policies as to separation of Church and state as well as freedom of speech laws which makes it difficult to monitor or follow religious meetings or services by government police agencies as much as we all would want it.
There is no doubt that in a number of places in the world, including the USA, UK, France, and others, there are peverse, anti-western Islamic Imans, and other related leaders. Even in the USA we have seen perverse Christian cults (David Koresh and Waco, TX) or 'Christian' individuals that have commited acts of terror (the recently conviced Rudolph with the 1996 olympics, Birmingham, AL abortion clinics, and 3 other deadly attacks). Do we want our government to monitor certain Christian groups? If so which ones? the ones that disagree with Government policy or those that encourage violence against groups of people? It is a terrible conflict of our societies.
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
Do we want our government to monitor certain Christian groups?

The USG actively monitors extremist Christian groups who seek to use violence to achieve their goals.
Live life to the fullest.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
and yet still lives her on state benefits as we wont deport him to Jordan because they will slice his fat ass up

-
In the 90ies, I always was much surprised to see that half a dozen bookshops on Charing Cross Road had most extreme fundamentalist literature in both Arabic AND English not only INside the shops but even on display in the shop-windows. I also was astonished to see, on the southern side of Kensington Gore Road near Knightsbridge, a sizeable building clearly marked in Arabic and English as "Islamic Academy", and two guys leaning out of a window in the first floor, inviting passers-by to "join some interesting discussions we have here" . I at that time was NOT aware of the "corporate owner" of that academy, but its "leaning" was absolutely clear at once and beyond ANY doubts.
-
Another matter is that Britain and the USA gave asylum to the most extreme, dangerous and destestable fundamentalist terrorists. The USA even harboured some people who were involved in assassination of President Anwar al-Sadat. Both the USA and Britain throughout the 90ies routinely turned down extradition requests from Jordan, Egypt and Algeria. To blame Arabs and Muslims AFTER something bad happened, is cheap, malicious and mean .
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:59 pm

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
and yet still lives her on state benefits as we wont deport him to Jordan because they will slice his fat ass up

-
In the 90ies, I always was much surprised to see that half a dozen bookshops on Charing Cross Road had most extreme fundamentalist literature in both Arabic AND English not only INside the shops but even on display in the shop-windows. I also was astonished to see, on the southern side of Kensington Gore Road near Knightsbridge, a sizeable building clearly marked in Arabic and English as "Islamic Academy", and two guys leaning out of a window in the first floor, inviting passers-by to "join some interesting discussions we have here" . I at that time was NOT aware of the "corporate owner" of that academy, but its "leaning" was absolutely clear at once and beyond ANY doubts.
-
 duck 
-
-
-
Another matter is that Britain and the USA gave asylum to the most extreme, dangerous and destestable fundamentalist terrorists. The USA even harboured some people who were involved in assassination of President Anwar al-Sadat. Both the USA and Britain throughout the 90ies routinely turned down extradition requests from Jordan, Egypt and Algeria. To blame Arabs and Muslims AFTER something bad happened, is cheap, malicious and mean .
-
 hissyfit 
-
-
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:10 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
One was banged up in Belmarsh, the Law Lords got him released.

-> in case you mean Lotfi Raissi --- THAT man is innocent. He, whenever of course denying it, spoke with people in Queensway W2 in August/Sep 2000, who later were involved with 11Sep01 . I, almost at the same time in the same place, met the same folks and also spoke with them. Neither Lotfi Raissi nor I had an idea about what really was in the offing. His arrestation lead to a SHARP change of my holiday-plans I can tell you !
-
-
It is most embarassing to see that he, whenever vindicated legally of any guilt, still is regarded as "one of them" !
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:16 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador, said in a radio interview on Friday that it was a "true criticism" to say Britain had offered sanctuary too easily. "Allowing them to go on using the hospitality and the generosity of the British people to emanate from here such calls for killing and such I think is wrong."

I think that Mr. Ambassador should be most of quiet since the role of the medieval kingdom he represents as far as harboring and sponsoring of terrorism is concerned is more than questionable.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
To blame Arabs and Muslims AFTER something bad happened, is cheap, malicious and mean .

Last time I checked it's, with surprising notoriety, always them who pull the trigger. Sure, the British government could be criticized for not doing enough to prevent it but the direct blame for the actions resulting in killings of innocent is spot on.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
I always was much surprised to see that half a dozen bookshops on Charing Cross Road had most extreme fundamentalist literature in both Arabic AND English not only INside the shops but even on display in the shop-windows.

I think it's unbelievably hypocritical to blame the authorities for letting these bookshops to exist because with great degree of certainty I see the same people crying bloody murder, be full of human rights, freedom of speech and blah blah and get all agitated the very moment first of these bookshops would be shut down by the authorities.
 
VS747SPUR
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:35 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:32 pm

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
These hardline clerics take the p*ss out of Britain's human rights legislation.

That Omar Bakri is trying to claim human rights, does someone want to tell him that preaching terror is not human and killing innocent people is not human ?
Fly DL
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
these bookshops would be shut down

- the authorities could have told them to take those things out of the shop-windows as being causing "public anger"
- the authorities could have acted against the owners as "encouraging criminal behaviour"
-
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:16 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
always them

-> really ? including terrorist attacks causing loss of life done by people of IRA, ETA and terrorists in Latin America ? also in case of the attack in Oklahoma-City ? also the various kidnappings by terrorists in Latin America ? also the attack in the Tokyo tube a few years ago ? also the terrorist attacks in Nepal ? --- no, your allegation does NOT hold water and simply is a generalisation
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
including terrorist attacks causing loss of life done by people of IRA, ETA and terrorists in Latin America ? also in case of the attack in Oklahoma-City ? also the various kidnappings by terrorists in Latin America ? also the attack in the Tokyo tube a few years ago ?

fine company for the Arab/Muslim terrorists isn' it?

Anyway, I thought we are talking about islamic terrorism, are we not...?
AFAIK, no one - at least here on a.net - is even trying to defend and/or find excuses for the atrocities of perpetrated by McVeigh, Maoist rebels in Nepal, IRA, ETA, etc. the way you, Jacobin and other terrorist apologists do. That, my friend, is THE difference.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
I thought we are talking about islamic terrorism, are we not...?

No, we are NOT ! We are talking about the lack of alertness of British authorities in regard to terrorism in the 90ies, which contributed to the present problems. And let's clarify it, I do NOT believe that this was the major reason for the London-attacks. Let's go back 5 years. In late 2000, Usama BinLadn deleted France and Britain from his "attack-lists" and stopped his local "franchisees" from attacks in the two countries, due to the positive stance of both in regard to the Middle East, most notably Palestine. Britain re-entered such lists upon its participation in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. So that, whatever "mistakes" British authorities may have "committed" before, the main problems are less than 2 years old, and rest with the government. A British PrimeMinister increasingly perceived as the lackey of the White House, almost "invited" such things. Simplifying matters may be good business for the "scandal-press" but does not meet realities.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
even trying to defend and/or find excuses for the atrocities of perpetrated by McVeigh, Maoist rebels in Nepal, IRA, ETA, etc. the way you, Jacobin and other terrorist apologists do

- I did not and do not find excuses for the attrocities you mentioned and I am NOT a "terrorist apologist", not at all. And having read the posts of "Jacobin" I do NOT see him as a "terrorist apologist" either. So that your unfounded unjust unfair allegation is to be refused totally and absolutely.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:04 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
In late 2000, Usama BinLadn deleted France and Britain from his "attack-lists" and stopped his local "franchisees" from attacks in the two countries, due to the positive stance of both in regard to the Middle East, most notably Palestine.

Hmmm, maybe Usama should open a PO box at a post office close to his cave in Pakistan, Afghanistan or wherever he's hiding at the moment so the governments can consult the course of their respective foreign policies in order not to be targeted by the terrorists?
Positive? I see it as biased the way Usama wants. That's appeasment and the French have great tradition in this regard. Their foreign policy (unfortunately also EU's) is so blindly pro-Palestinian because:
a) they will automatically choose the opposite stance than Americans, right or wrong, just to comfort their trauma from being medium-size former imperial power not being taken as seriously as they think they should be.
b) the government and its foreign policies is virtually hostage of the timebomb in the form of 10% of immigrants from Arab/Muslim countries.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
I see it as biased the way Usama wants

-> no, it is well-balanced and unbiased, and most positive --- not as extremely one-sidedly pro-Zionist as the US-American one

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
virtually hostage of the timebomb in the form of 10% of immigrants

-> true, the 15 mio. people of Arab origin living in France, a bit more than half of them French citizens, nowadays have a healthy and positive influence onto French foreign policy. It is no longer the 1950ies, when the French Jews virtually controlled ME-politics of France.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7

Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:25 am

MEL AV FAN, no, it was hate cleric Baki I was referring to, not Raissi.

I would not take seriously any declaration by OBL, besides, we know it's BS, as the French foiled an attack by Islamists on the Christmas Markets in Strasbourg in late 2000.

OBL does not really see various Western nations as really different from one another, if he implies as much it's to attempt the further split the West.
And the idea we in the UK suddenly became targets after Iraq is BS too, more so perhaps, but we've always been a target.

The original planning for Sept 11th included not only more attacks in the US that day (up to 10 aircraft, whittled down for practicality reasons, like number of decent operatives available to actually do it, to 5, then finally 4 aircraft).

But a recent trail in Mumbai indicated the UK too was originally a target that day;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1534637,00.html

[Edited 2005-07-24 17:34:39]
 
mhodgson
Posts: 4673
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:47 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:01 am

There was a survey in the Daily Telegraph yesterday. The results about British Muslim's disturb me - one in four actually sympathise with the terrorists.

32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end"

18% Feel little or no loyalty to the UK.

Source:The Daily Telegraph

What the hell are they doing living in this country if they do not agree with it's ways? Those 32% can piss off, and go and live in a country with those who share their ideals as far as I'm concerned.
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 19):
What the hell are they doing living in this country if they do not agree with it's ways?

Ask the managers of the UK's immigration policies.
Live life to the fullest.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
The original planning for Sept 11th included not only more attacks in the US that day (up to 10 aircraft, whittled down for practicality reasons, like number of decent operatives available to actually do it, to 5, then finally 4 aircraft). But a recent trail in Mumbai indicated the UK too was originally a target that day;


-
Among the original targets of 11Sep01 were the Theatre District in London with about three theatres targeted and the Eiffel Tower in Paris. London and Paris then apparently got "deleted".
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 19):
32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end"

-
while 83% regard the attacks as NOT justified and 6% have no opinion, which leaves 11%. So that 21% want to change things by peaceful means.
-
Only 11% to return then.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
Ask the managers of the UK's immigration policies

-
They could NOT answer the question, as
A) those who immigrated were pro-U.K.
B) those 11% (upto 32%) to a wide extent are born in the U.K. and are British citizens
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
They could NOT answer the question, as
A) those who immigrated were pro-U.K.
B) those 11% (upto 32%) to a wide extent are born in the U.K. and are British citizens

Sure, at the time of emigration to the UK, almost all UK immigrants certainly were/are pro-UK. However, as the excitement of moving to a new land wore off and increasing numbers of Islamic World immigrants to the UK (and their descendants) failed to assimilate effectively into British life, the conditions were set for extremist Islamist terrorism to take root and thrive in the UK.

That said, I recognize that immigration policy is only one shortcoming - what about the policies governing speech (and enforcement of the same) that allowed extremist religious leaders to propagate hatred?

[Edited 2005-07-24 18:39:51]
Live life to the fullest.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:35 am

But the ones questioned in this survey will almost certainly have been born here, with UK passports.
Deport them to where exactly?

Of course some might have been to where their parent/grandparents came from, and decided mostly the life was better in the 'decadent' UK.
Even if, as I suspect, most questioned in this survey came from areas blighted by high unemployment, where unlike more typically in the UK, Muslims have not intergrated as well.

As for the other side of the coin, the racist BNP lost badly in an Essex (to the East of Greater London) council ward by-election the week after the 7th July bombings, despite using the image of the blown up bus in leaflets.
(Truth is, when the BNP have won seats on the council they are so thick that they cannot follow council business, so usually leave if they are not voted out).
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:43 am

These figures kinda put into a completely different light those previous statements tied with political correctness about few out-of-control individuals.

10%+14% believes that Muslims should take very little or no responsibility at all for preventing terrorism and bringing the perpetrators to justice.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
So that 21% want to change things by peaceful means.

What if the majority society would object to the change as such? Would violent means become viable options then?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 24):
what about the policies governing speech (and enforcement of the same) that allowed extremist religious leaders to propagate hatred?

-> in many democratic countries in Europe like Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France and others, there are laws against racist remarks in public, in newspapers, on radio and TV, and also against advocating /propagating of racial, ethnic or religious hatred. And in all of continental Europe, there is a compulsary registration of all residents with the authorities, and de-registration and re-registration in case of change of lodgings. The point that Britain does have neither makes it clear why terrorists in Britain have it easier than elsewhere in Europe. Yes, I think they take the "freedom-thing" a bit too far. In fact, I when in London in 1972, admired the Brits for their relaxed and freedom oriented ways, but now have to say that whenever it for sure is NOT their mistake, they really should get "Europeanized" a bit more. True enough, as the Madrid thing has shown, all this will NOT make such things impossible, but it will help to keep matters under control. True also that there are extremist Imams preaching nonsense in Paris, Frankfurt, Munich, Geneva, Zurich, Vienna, Milano and other places, BUT they have to do most discreetly, which reduces their RANGE. THAT at least is something whenever not everything.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
10%+14% believes that Muslims should take very little or no responsibility at all for preventing terrorism and bringing the perpetrators to justice

-> to admit it, I perceived these figures as an ugly surprise, as it is about twice as high as I would have expected. I would have expected some 3 to 6 percent. I am perfectly sure that also many Muslim leaders in the U.K. are badly surprised, whether they admit it or not. Would say that the problem in the U.K. is much more serious than I expected. I do NOT have any numbers but dare to say that similar figures in France, Germany, Switzerland and Italy would be ways lower.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
What if the majority society would object to the change as such? Would violent means become viable options then?

-> This question canNOT really be answered. BUT I sincerely believe that most of those 24% are ready for sensible compromises. Many of their "demands" in reality also are demands of many Europeans, but many are not. So that to "bind" these 24% into serious conversations is important. I think, many of these 24% will be surprised to jump against open doors and to find out how much of their reservation is shared by a great deal of the "Western society".
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
Many of their "demands" in reality also are demands of many Europeans

Such as???
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 28):
Many of their "demands" in reality also are demands of many Europeans

Such as???

-
-
"Machines" in pubs and restaurants for "playing" for money. Such machines have been prohibited in Switzerland a year ago. It was quite an object of fury for my Arabic teacher; she was quite embarassed about it, and even more so when her younger brother came from Damascus and found them "amazing".
-
Whores alongside roads. Quite near to the city centre on the road to Lucerne, they were allowed to "offer" their services. Which to the same lady was matter of embarassment. A governmentally regulated "whorehouse" has been opened in the meantime and the ladies had to vacate that road.
-
Alcoholic beverages. The same lady loved/loves wine. BUT drunk people on the road were/are abhorrent to her. In Arab countries (except the KSA) you in reality can be drunk as hell, but either you are indoors or at least behave (hypocrisy maybe). Drunk people on the road in the eyes of many Muslims in Europe are a "typically European thing" which for sure is definite nonsense, but a demand of many is that drunk people should be kept off the road until back "in shape".
-
Fully naked people on the beach. Many Muslims in Europe believe that this is admired and encouraged by ALL Christian Europeans (exaggerated a bit but reflecting the matter), which is equally nonsense. If you tell people that Europeans by majority are not generally in favour of that, just ready to tolerate it in separate places, most of the matter is solved .
-
It goes on and on. I admittedly only presented cased where agreement can be reached. I some instances, neither European Europeans nor liberal Muslims CAN agree to demands of more conservative Muslims.
-
I hope to have given you a picture .
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
"Machines" in pubs and restaurants for "playing" for money. Such machines have been prohibited in Switzerland a year ago. It was quite an object of fury for my Arabic teacher; she was quite embarassed about it, and even more so when her younger brother came from Damascus and found them "amazing".

I don't gamble out of principle, but whoever wants to waste his/her money this way is free to do so.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Whores alongside roads. Quite near to the city centre on the road to Lucerne, they were allowed to "offer" their services. Which to the same lady was matter of embarassment. A governmentally regulated "whorehouse" has been opened in the meantime and the ladies had to vacate that road.
-

While I agree that street prostitution is highly dangerous for the women involved and support moves by prostitutes to organise themselves, open collective brothels etc., for me, in whatever way the earn their income, they are still women and ought to be respected as such.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Alcoholic beverages. The same lady loved/loves wine. BUT drunk people on the road were/are abhorrent to her. In Arab countries (except the KSA) you in reality can be drunk as hell, but either you are indoors or at least behave (hypocrisy maybe). Drunk people on the road in the eyes of many Muslims in Europe are a "typically European thing" which for sure is definite nonsense, but a demand of many is that drunk people should be kept off the road until back "in shape".

I rarely drink alcohol, and if, never to the level of drunkeness, but if a person is getting drunk or not is his / her own problem.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Fully naked people on the beach. Many Muslims in Europe believe that this is admired and encouraged by ALL Christian Europeans (exaggerated a bit but reflecting the matter), which is equally nonsense. If you tell people that Europeans by majority are not generally in favour of that, just ready to tolerate it in separate places, most of the matter is solved .

While I think that our society is oversexed, mainly through the media (less is often more in erotics), nobody forces a person to go to a nudist beach.

jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador, said in a radio interview on Friday that it was a "true criticism" to say Britain had offered sanctuary too easily. "Allowing them to go on using the hospitality and the generosity of the British people to emanate from here such calls for killing and such I think is wrong."

President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan also noted that some Islamist groups banned in Pakistan "operate with impunity" in Britain."

Strong words coming from a country which a. harbors the rancid Wahabbis who are pretty much the worst instigators and apologists for Islamic fundamentalism; and b. a country whose official "security" agency, the ISI, was responsible for the deaths of over 50,000 Indian citizens. I wonder if Mush gave a rat's ass when his state funded ISI operated with impunity in India killing people left, right and center.

Talk about speaking out of one's side of one's mouth.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
"Machines" in pubs and restaurants for "playing" for money.

It's their money and if they want to waste this way so be it. I don't gamble regularly but if there's some ridiculously huge jackpot I try my luck. What if...

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Fully naked people on the beach.

I wish I could post that great scene from the movie People vs. Larry Flynt when he asks the rhetoric question whether real pornography is pictures of beuatiful naked girls or whether it is footage of dead corpses being bulldozed into mass graves or nuclear "mushroom" cloud.
If you don't like boobies, don't stare. Simple as that.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Whores alongside roads.

I agree with that. We have huge problem with this, among other reasons because there is certain fraction in the parliament, which effectively prevents passing of any legislation regarding prostitution, gays, grugs, etc. because of their bigoted attituted. No surprise they call themselves the "Christian" Democrats.
Get them off the streets, license them, make them undergo regular medical checks, tax them.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Alcoholic beverages. The same lady loved/loves wine. BUT drunk people on the road were/are abhorrent to her. In Arab countries (except the KSA) you in reality can be drunk as hell, but either you are indoors or at least behave (hypocrisy maybe).

I don't understand what's the problem? Alcohol as such? Or the fact that people drink? Nobody's forcing those who don't drink beer or scotch down their throats. Why not just leave those who enjoy it alone? As long as those under influence stay out of driving and are not agressive who am I to tell them how much they should drink?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
I some instances, neither European Europeans nor liberal Muslims CAN agree to demands of more conservative Muslims.

Just as I can't imagine subscribing to some of the "values" of Christians when it comes to abortion, evolution, gays, stem cells, etc. etc. But the core of the problem is HOW the discussion will be conducted. By competition of views through free elections, freedom of presentation of opposing views in the press or by forcing minority views upon others using violence, terrorism, bringing the system down, etc.??? The wonderful concept of freedom based on the priciple of one's rights being nearly unlimited as long as they don't infrige someone else's rights should be protected and those who don't like it are more than welcome to leave for greener pastures I don't see why the majority society should surrender to their intolerance.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Many Muslims in Europe believe that this is admired and encouraged by ALL Christian Europeans (exaggerated a bit but reflecting the matter), which is equally nonsense.

Well, some Europeans like baring their bodies. So what?

Muslims in Europe should accept that self-expression of that kind is part of European culture. An expression of the nude body goes back to the lodestone of European culture - Greek antiquity and Roman civilization. This admiration for the body beautiful predates the advent of both Christianity and Muslims in Europe.

Why the f*ck should Europeans have to apologize for a means of self expression and a respect for their own bodies that goes beyond medieval notions of shame? If Euro-Muslims are so upset, they should invest in a good pair of blinders. Or stay at home and pray. And as far as the hot ones go, they should head straight to the beach. There are lots of beautiful Muslim women and men who'd be an asset to a beach.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13230
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
Ask the managers of the UK's immigration policies.

The fact that most of them were born in the UK may have something to do with it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8065
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:27 am

Like I said yesterday,

Blair...

SCRAP THE HUMAN RIGHTS LAW NOW!!!

Then, deport these assholes.


I think i've said enough.


Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
this way is free to do so

�
-> no, in Switzerland you no longer can do so

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
I rarely drink alcohol, and if, never to the level of drunkeness

-> the point in question is not drinking and not even to BE drunk but to appear drunk on the road

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
Strong words coming from a country which a. harbors the rancid Wahabbis

-> Pakistan has rather extreme folks in parts of the country, BUT Wahhabi is the sect dominating Saudi Arabia and so not at the centre of the problem really

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 32):
I try my luck. What if...

-> maybe, but you no longer can in Switzerland, for example

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 32):
Alcohol as such?

-> as stated before, NOT this but to appear being drunk in public, on the road

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
like baring their bodies. So what?

-> exactly this is regarded as extremely immoral and decadent by conservative Muslim --- and as a central part of "European decadence"

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
European culture. An expression of the nude body goes back to the lodestone of European culture - Greek antiquity and Roman civilization.


-> Roman =? you indirectly at least speak about Italy. Ask Italians. The further south you get the more it resembles MOST conservative Arabs.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 35):
Then, deport these assholes.
-> very sorry, BUT, to repeat it for dummies, you cannot deport assholes who hold citizenship of YOUR country and of nothing else and who were born in YOUR country. So very sorry indeed, but they happen to be YOUR assholes
-



I think i've said enough.

-> no, not really, as you did say anything of substance
-
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
the problem with terrorism is that if it's not one thing - it's another

-
well, the question still is, WHAT ARE TERRORISTS ? of whatever colour or religion. --- They are people who decide that the use of total and absolute violence solves any problem their way. It is people who want the shortcut solution, and hope that extreme and continued use of violence will bash the others into concessions. Bad for all who basically would be on their side is that it is difficult to advocate for aims, advocated by terrorists.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:45 am

Well, sorry, if I go to e.g. a Middle Eastern country or even to the strictly Roman-Catholic province of the Philippines my girlfriend comes from, I adapt and do everything reasonable as not to p*ss off the local population, without loosing my own dignity. This means e.g. in the Philippines no nude bathing or publically showing affection (more than holding hands) with my girlfriend.

But on the other hand this is Europe. Decadent or not, but part of our freedoms and customs are the right to get drunk in public, to go swimming nude at nudist beaches and, in Germany, to have prostitution legalised. If the Muslim immigrants don't like it, they are free to go back to where they came from. Period.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
skysurfer
Posts: 1034
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:37 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:12 am

We got lax, just like the states did pre 9/11.....we thought, it can't happen to us so we're safe. 9/11 should've changed that for everyone everywhere, but alas it didn't and people quickly forget events (unless it directly affects them). So on 7/7 the UK population were reminded of something they'd put to the back of their minds. Nobody is safe until we can all pull together,,,even then, it's debateable! Can we live in a violence free world? Probably not. Can we try? I bloody well hope so.

Stu
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
this is Europe

-> you REALLY want to indicate it is the same in the Mediterranean area of Europe ? ------- and yes, the 24% mentioned would like to change the points you mentioned. That 68% of the Muslims in Britain support a modern European position shows that there is a clear majority in favour of a modern way of life. The 24% however do NOT want to leave, the majority of them being British citizens btw and so clearly at home in the U.K.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:07 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
maybe, but you no longer can in Switzerland

Firts of all, I meant lotto. AFAIK, this is still legal in Switzerland because someone just won some ridiculously huge jackpot not too long ago.
Regarding gambling machines: I'm nearly certain how they arrived to the conclusion. By holding a referendum, since that's the way how the decide most issues of public concern. Correct?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
like baring their bodies. So what?

exactly this is regarded as extremely immoral and decadent by conservative Muslim --- and as a central part of "European decadence"

Once again, SO WHAT??? If someone frome Europe travels to the Middle East it is automatically expected that he/she will extend the courtesy and behave according to the local customs (and that's how it should be), therefore I see no reason why this should not work the other way? Does anyone care what I think about the custom of women having to cover head to toe? No. Do I want to change it? No. So please leave my freedom to get drunk on Friday night and my gf's right to be topless on the beach alone. If you don't like it fine, either suck it up or if you don't like it THAT BAD leave where you came from. I see NO reason why we should be giving up our ways because of some minority's version of "morality".

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
you REALLY want to indicate it is the same in the Mediterranean area of Europe ?

Croatia (Yugoslavia) has been famous for its FKK beaches since maybe 1970s. I've seen loads of topless girls/women in Greece and Cyprus on regular beaches, I don't think it's a problem in Italy, maybe with the exception of Sicilly. Can't say about Spain and Portugal.
It's really pathetic how certain people get all ballistic about something as natural as human nudity, yet they have no problem leave their kid watching some action movie where the main "hero" is more basically a mass murderer or let them play Doom on the computer.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:31 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 41):
By holding a referendum, since that's the way how the decide most issues of public concern. Correct?

Yes, absolutely correct

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 41):
I see no reason why this should not work the other way?

it in fact DOES work the other way, with most at least

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 41):
what I think about the custom of women having to cover head to toe?


this is only the custom in Saudi Arabia, but NOT in the other countries of the Arab World, except in some remote rural areas

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 41):
I see NO reason why we should be giving up our ways because of some minority's version of "morality".

it in fact is the "morality-version" of a minority inside a minority

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 41):
exception of Sicilly. Can't say about Spain and Portugal.

Sicily, Southern Spain, Portugal, and Greece happen to be in Europe, and are, in many places/areas at least, rather intolerant about such things
-
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:36 pm

So you go to a nudist beach in a place where it is tolerated and cover yourself outside, as it is done in orthern Europe as well. What I don't agree with is the wish of a immigrant minority to close all nudist facilities or make local customs more restrictive, because it doesn't suit their moralistic standards.

BTW, Europe is by now not really Christian anymore, though many citizens might still be pro forma members of the various churches. Europe is increasingly secular.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
BTW, Europe is by now not really Christian anymore, though many citizens might still be pro forma members of the various churches. Europe is increasingly secular.

- You can be member of any religious "community" but being secular. That is no contradiction.
-
And a clear majority of Muslims in Europe support the European position against the rather fundamentalist "moralists"
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:18 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
- You can be member of any religious "community" but being secular. That is no contradiction.
-
And a clear majority of Muslims in Europe support the European position against the rather fundamentalist "moralists"

I know this, but my message was meant for the moralists (and this includes Christian biblethumpers as well). Nobody forces them to drink alcohol, visit a prostitute or go to a nudist beach.

What I hate is the hypocrisy, which doesn't only affect Muslims, but in the past also e.g. immigrants from strictly Roman-Catholic countries (e.g. from Sicily), When the teenage boys and young men are allowed to wear down their horns, using the "decadent" fleshpots (night clubs, going out and having sex with local girls), but while anybody who dares to get romantic with e.g. their sisters gets punished (and I've met very nice women from Turkey, Iran or Arabic countries, esp. the Lebanon, in the past).

Jan

[Edited 2005-07-25 15:19:17]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45):
Nobody forces them to drink alcohol, visit a prostitute or go to a nudist beach.

What I hate is the hypocrisy

-
The HYPOCRISY of such "moralist / traditional / religious" folks is one of the worst aspects of the matter indeed

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 747400sp, L410Turbolet, Pihero, rfields5421, seat64k and 20 guests