MaverickM11
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Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:45 am

E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:43 pm

Personally, I think the need for unions in MOST jobs is no longer necessary. Remember that when unions started out, things were very different than today. Now unions and companies are two sides of the same coin.

Unions are big businesses just like the companies they go head-to-head with. Couple that with the fact that the IBT (or many other unions for that matter) doesn't instill the fear it once did in corporate boardrooms, and you have the beginnings of the death knell for unions as we know them currently.

MxCtrlr  bouncy 
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MaverickM11
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 1):
and you have the beginnings of the death knell for unions as we know them currently.

I can't imagine how the split is going to help.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
B744F
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 1):
Personally, I think the need for unions in MOST jobs is no longer necessary. Remember that when unions started out, things were very different than today. Now unions and companies are two sides of the same coin.

If you take the only power you have to check big business, what direction do you think that will take us?

I think Unions today are full of corrupt individuals but that does not mean the idea of a Union is bad, rather it just shows how greed corrupts many things.
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:39 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
If you take the only power you have to check big business, what direction do you think that will take us?

I understand the concept of checks and balances (and I'm not taking your statement personally, mind you) but I have to wonder just how much of a check and balance are unions today? Their power base has eroded dramatically (one of the reasons the IBT broke from AFL-CIO) to the point where management (aka, Big Business) is no longer intimidated by them. The threat of a strike is an empty threat (almost) due to court rulings over the years that state a company has the sovereign right to self-preservation (i.e., the ability to hire replacement workers to cover striking union workers).

Ironically, that one ruling is what began the erosion of union power and it was a ruling that was handed down during one of the worst and longest-lasting airline strikes ever - The 1969 National Airlines wildcat walkout fiasco. That strike lasted 18 months and the only reason the union employees got their jobs back in the end was the courts allowed NA to fire the striking workers.

Higher courts ruled that striking union workers cannot be fired (unless they have a "no strike clause" in their contract, ala PATCO in 1980). Companies can replace striking workers but they cannot fire them (a case study in semantics to be sure, but there is a very fine line of demarcation).

I still stand by my previous statement that unions have basically become obsolete but I do agree with you B744F that the checks and balances they provide ARE necessary still.

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MaverickM11
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:30 am

E pur si muove -Galileo
 
texan
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:42 am

The first thought that comes to mind is definitely "This is a death knell for unions." I'm unsure about this, however. One of the unions left because it wanted to pursue unionizing Wal-Mart, while the AFL-CIO did not have that on it's list of priority. More unions could leave the AFL-CIO to pursue more retail and service workers, whom the smaller unions put as priority and the AFL-CIO puts on the backburner. The splintered off unions will have some big and strong pushes to unionize more service workers, and, if they succeed, then it could spell a much more unified workforce, one that will really pressure the major corporations. We'll see if it will be successful.

Texan
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slider
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:52 am

That's true Texan, but they'll lose much of their political clout as a result of splinter factions.

That's the biggest benefit, IMHO. They've gotten a free pass on violating non-profit organization laws for years in this regard.
 
texan
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:45 am

It is very possible for them to lose political clout. If they are successful in recruiting a large portion of service workers, though, then their power could also increase. It's going to be a wait and see approach on this for the next year or two.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
legend500
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:06 pm

Permit me to seem quite the Red conservative (when I'm really just a liberal, which in my definition, includes free-markets): what right do unions have telling a businessman what to do? Are not unions just large political corporations intent on gaining profit (in the case, measured in power) for themselves?

They served noble purpose back in the Industrial era, but just like the noble Fokker, are way past their prime. Good riddance.
 
B744F
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:02 pm

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 9):
what right do unions have telling a businessman what to do?

They have every right because businessmen rely on them for their business to be successful

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 9):
Are not unions just large political corporations intent on gaining profit (in the case, measured in power) for themselves?

No, they are large groupings of people taken advantage of who realize if you join together you have a stronger louder more powerful voice

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 9):
They served noble purpose back in the Industrial era, but just like the noble Fokker, are way past their prime. Good riddance.

Ridiculous, you let your guard down, and history will repeat itself. Time and time again
 
legend500
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:30 pm

Quote:
They have every right because businessmen rely on them for their business to be successful



Do they? Perhaps some examples are in order.

Full union: United (Bankrupt), US Airways (Bankrupt), American (Union Broken)
Partial: Southwest (successful), Delta (looking bad)
No Union: Jet Blue (Very successful), Frontier (Very successful)

Or in another industry, Retail:

Full Union: K-Mart (Bankrupt), Borders (Close to Bankruptcy), Ultimate Electronics (Bankrupt)
No Union: WalMart (Huge Success), Barnes & Noble (Very Successful), Best Buy (Successful)

Seems the largest and most profitable businesses have no need for unions. In fact, since their jobs are "safe" the workers at non-union companies seem better off, too.

Quote:
No, they are large groupings of people taken advantage of who realize if you join together you have a stronger louder more powerful voice



So unions are friendly, non-corrupting social clubs? Doesn't seem to square with the earlier opinions of one board reader:

Quote:
I think Unions today are full of corrupt individuals but that does not mean the idea of a Union is bad, rather it just shows how greed corrupts many things.



Unions are fee-charging for-profit organizations which nanny workers into working for the union when the employee applied (people are not forced to work anywhere) to work for the company.

Quote:
you let your guard down, and history will repeat itself



Here we agree. Whenever we discuss unions, we need to be mindful of the Jimmy Hoffas of the world, the multiple pension scandals within unions that threatened to bankrupt employee pension plans, or the McClellan Senate hearings which exposed the Union's extensive ties to underworld forces, such as the Mafia.

Unions were useful in the newly industrialized cities of the late 1800's. So were horse carriages. Just because they both worked well in the distant past doesn't mean we need to stay wedded to an ancient system of thought.
 
cfalk
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:40 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
If you take the only power you have to check big business, what direction do you think that will take us?

Organized labor IS big business, disguised as a "benevolent" organization.

If a union requires dues from its membership, you can be pretty sure right there that they are a business, and their incentives run counter to their stated purpose. They have employees and buildings, and an empire to run.

The only union I like are those informal unions where company workers gather together, elect a spokesman or two to represent them in discussions with management. They often have a seat at the executive commitee of the company and have a direct voice in the running of the company, and can honestly represent the workers while knowing the concerns of management as well. No money changes hands, and the Union is not corrupted.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
slider
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RE: Two Large Unions Are Leaving The AFL-CIO

Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
Ridiculous, you let your guard down, and history will repeat itself. Time and time again

Yes and no.

I would hesitate to say that today because now in the 21st century, there are oodles of labor protections, labor laws, safety regulations, accounting rules, employement/employer law that is in a very mature phase, and I don't think widespread abuses will occur anywhere near the scale we used to see.

That's not to say some companies won't try, but I don't think that pendulum is going back near where it once swung.

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