FlyingTexan
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Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:00 am

HOUSTON CHRONICLE
THU 07/28/05

Head of Texas Minutemen quits, cites racism in group
National leaders say plans to patrol Houston still on

By EDWARD HEGSTROM

The head of the Texas Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (Bill Parmley) has quit, saying he has been unable to overcome racism among members in Goliad.

In an interview, Parmley said he has become concerned that some of the Minuteman activists in his region have a vendetta against the Goliad County sheriff, who is Hispanic. He said they also have made comments about shooting illegal immigrants or letting them die from dehydration.

He mocked others in the Minuteman group by describing the way they call all Hispanics "Mexicans" or "Mexkins."

"To old-time South Texas people, it's not about being `Mexkin' or white," Parmley said. "It's about the community."

Parmley said he has continued efforts to maintain good relations with the Goliad chapter of the League of United Latin American Citizens. He said he also proposed having the Minuteman organization buy boxes of drinks that the sheriff could give to dehydrated illegal immigrants after they are captured.

Others in the organization were opposed to the idea, according to Parmley. He quoted one member as saying: "Let the (expletives) die."

It would not be the first derogatory comment made at a Minuteman meeting. Both Parmley and Bee County Sheriff Carlos Carrizales confirm that during a discussion early this year of illegal immigrants on private property in rural Goliad County, one of the residents asked: "Can't we just shoot 'em?' "

===

Brown Berets threaten Minutemen
Group urges group to think twice before patrolling

By Cari Hammerstrom
The (Brownsville, TX) Monitor

PHARR, July 28, 2005 — Once a powerful and militant organization in the Chicano Liberation Movement, the Brown Berets made it known Wednesday that they will oppose the Minutemen border watch group with physical force if necessary.

“We want to send the message, ‘Think twice before you come here,’” Pablo Delgado, a Brown Beret leader, said at a press confer-ence at the Hidalgo County Democratic Party headquarters.

The Minutemen have said they will come to Texas in October, although it is still unclear whether South Texas is in their plans.



http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/ts_more.php?id=66315_0_10_0_C
====



 spin 
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Newark777
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Brown Berets:
The Minutemen “are nothing more than a group of zealous over-enthusiastic racists

Damn, sounds like he's talking about his own organization.  scratchchin 

Harry
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searpqx
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Thread starter):
unable to overcome racism among members in Goliad.

And is anyone really surprised? As far as I'm concerned, illegal immigration is the biggest problems facing the country, but history has proven that vigilantism isn't the way to go. And many of the folks that are drawn to vigilante groups are some of the last ones you want on your side.

Quoting FlyingTexan (Thread starter):
Brown Berets made it known Wednesday that they will oppose the Minutemen border watch group with physical force if necessary.

And this kind of idiocy will only add fuel to the fire.

Duane
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b757300
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:26 am

I find this to be funny. I was banned from a so called "conservative" website for pointing out that the MMP was full of racist loons. Their biggest supporters are groups like the National Alliance and Storm Front. Just Google search to learn more about them.

Of course the Brown Berets are no different so to them, "pot meet kettle."
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Newark777
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:28 am

Hopefully both groups will kill each other off, and we can all move on.  Wink

Harry
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alberchico
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Thread starter):
The head of the Texas Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (Bill Parmley) has quit, saying he has been unable to overcome racism among members in Goliad.

Throughout history racism and immigration have gone hand in hand
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
legend500
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:56 pm

Both the TMCDC and the Brown Berets through their fanaticism point out something important: when State and National governments are ineffective at solving a problem, some other nutcase will try to do it for them. The real blame lies not in either the TMCDC (who have a legitimate interest in protecting Texas' borders, but are profoundly misguided) or in the Brown Berets' (who understandably wish to counter racism, but not in a fruitful or constructive manner), but in Austin, Washington DC, Chihuahua, Saltillo, Cd. Victoria and Mexico DF. Political will and financial support can help to come to an equitable solution, but only if the governments along the Texan border pony up.
 
cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:32 pm

I think it is really sad that this happens. The Minutemen had some very good points to make (like how easy it would be to shut down illegal border crossings if the politicians took their fingers out of their asses), and it's a damn shame to see their efforts hijacked by petty racism.

Charles
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Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:03 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
The Minutemen had some very good points to make (like how easy it would be to shut down illegal border crossings if the politicians took their fingers out of their asses), and it's a damn shame to see their efforts hijacked by petty racism.

Maybe so, Charles, but didn't those of use who opposed this whole Minutemen idea from the beginning say this would happen-that it would fill up with a ton of racists goons, who's sole motivation was racism, and the desire to keep anything that wasn't white on the other side of the border?

Who is really surprised by this? Didn't we have something similar at San Diego Airport, with a vigilante group hanging out there, looking for illegals, or some other nonsense?

First, the border does NOT need shut-that's extremism of the worst kind. It's xenephobia; it's racism; it's wrong. What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico. Obviously, NAFTA hasn't worked, if illegals are still flooding our borders in search of a more dignified existence.

Get rid of this damn program. It's just another post 9/11 black eye to the image of this country.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico

This is the main reason whywe have the structural funds subsidies in the EU. The idea is to get the living standards across the EU to an approximately equal level, or at least to to prevent drastic differences. If people are content in their own countries , there is less likely chance of trouble.

Jan
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Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
If people are content in their own countries , there is less likely chance of trouble.

And that alone makes a financial investment worth it right there-everyone wins, then.
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cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
First, the border does NOT need shut-that's extremism of the worst kind. It's xenephobia; it's racism; it's wrong. What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico.

Sorry, but any nation should be able to control who comes into the country. That is normally done through border controls, visas, green cards, work permits, etc. What you are advocating is pure chaos, with a whole class of citizens who do not fulfill their obligations to society (don't pay taxes), don't qualify for the protections that society affords to legal workers (minimum wages, unemployment benefits, healthcare, etc.) and otherwise cannot or do not conform to society, like insure their cars. You are advocating a maintainance of a sub-class of society - liberated of all societal norms. Some liberal you are!

In addition, you advocate the non-control of criminals coming into the U.S. While 90% of mexican migrants are just looking for an honest job, you still have a sizable portion of immigrants who have substantial criminal records, who the U.S. should be turning back at the border, with a "You are NOT welcome here".

You also have the possibility that terrorists will one day realize that they can sneak into the U.S. that way, thus bypassing all the fancy immigration controls that you have at the airports, making them useless.

I'm all for economic migration. European countries have been doing it for years and years, from Turkey and other places. Turkish, Portugese, Italians and others have been brought into Switzerland for decades, and eventually qualify for citizenship. But it is controlled. The U.S. needs Mexican labor, but let it be controlled, with work permits, legal protections for the workers, minimum wage etc..

Mexico has been corrupt at its highest levels ever since before the Spanish left 200 years ago. What makes you think that culture can be changed in just a few short years? Especially when there is no incentive for the government to shape up, when they can simply export their unwanted, unemployed masses to the north? As an added bonus, many of those people end up sending a lot of money back home to Mexico. I understand that the Mexican government actually produces handouts and pamphlets for people attempting to cross illegally, telling them where are the best places to do it, at what times of day, etc.

All nations have a responsibility and a requirement to know who is in their country. What you propose is irresponsible.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
Sorry, but any nation should be able to control who comes into the country.

I didn't say it shouldn't control it's border, Charles, it should, no doubt. It should. But our border can't be CLOSED. We're not the USSR here, if you didn't realize that. We don't need to arm our boder with thousands of troops, and to completly shut the border. That is, as I said, xenophobic and pure racism. I doubt we'd do that if there was a problem with lily-white Canadians, do you?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
What you propose is irresponsible.

Good God, Charles, all I "proposed" was helping Mexico raise it's standard of living so these people DON'T come across to here! And all I did was say this vigilantism isn't the answer.

You read WAY too much into what I said, dude. Way too much.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:37 pm

Most people, if their standard of living is adequate, prefer tostay in their own country, city, village.

Now, on the other hand, who does profit from a free trade zone between a really rich country and a poor country with low living standards? It is mainly big business, who can outsource manual labour to the cheap country. Due to the low wages paid, it doesn't really increase the living standard in the poor country, but at the same time increases profits in the rich country.

Jan
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cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
I didn't say it shouldn't control it's border, Charles, it should, no doubt. It should. But our border can't be CLOSED. We're not the USSR here, if you didn't realize that. We don't need to arm our boder with thousands of troops, and to completly shut the border.

You jumped on my case for proposing to shut down ILLEGAL immigration - i.e. all the places where people cross over the Rio Grande or the desert at the dead of night. I never said, nor did I even come close to saying that the hundreds of legal crossing points, with immigrations and customs officers, should not remain open for business. It is simply a question of making the illegal crossing points no longer a viable option for illegal immigrants, drug smugglers, and undesirables crossing over (criminals and terrorists).

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
First, the border does NOT need shut-that's extremism of the worst kind. It's xenephobia; it's racism; it's wrong. What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico.

You've reversed your position and are now trying to save face. You clearly said earlier that you don't see any reason to control immigration, but rather to improve the Mexican government's management of their economy. How would you propose to do that? I see 2 options: 1) Let open borders for trade take its course (that will take 50 to 100 years) and 2) an Iraq-style invasion and reinvent the government. I doubt option 2 will be very popular, and the first one takes too long for the MTV generation, and leaves the question on what to do in the meantime about the border.

Charles
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cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Now, on the other hand, who does profit from a free trade zone between a really rich country and a poor country with low living standards? It is mainly big business, who can outsource manual labour to the cheap country. Due to the low wages paid, it doesn't really increase the living standard in the poor country, but at the same time increases profits in the rich country.

The poorer country is always the biggest beneficiary. Why do you think that workers in poor countries will take a job at $10 per day? Because they have something like 30 or 40% unemplyoment, that's why. That $10 per day job is probably a pretty good wage there, and if he did not have that job, he would have no job, in a country too poor to give any unemployment support. That is a net benefit for the poor country.

As the poor country attracts more and more export-related production, its unemployment rates go down, which pushes wages upwards. The $10 per day wage becomes $20, then $50, then $200, etc. The living standards of the poor country starts rising much, much faster than it could have on its own. Wanna see examples? How about Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, post-war Germany, all of which have grown tremendously due mainly to exports.

This is very basic economics.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Now, on the other hand, who does profit from a free trade zone between a really rich country and a poor country with low living standards? It is mainly big business, who can outsource manual labour to the cheap country.

My dad used almost the exact words to me the other day, MD11, in discussing this issue. Almost to the letter. Well done.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
You've reversed your position and are now trying to save face.

In a word-bull cookies, Charles. I haven't reversed anything. Read what I said. It's consistent. You're the one wanting to completely shut the border, not me. I said that 1. We SHOULD monitor the border, to keep illegals out, but we DON'T need to close it, or have armed vigilantes running around, and that 2. We should do all we can to help raise the standard of living in Mexico so that fewer and fewer people would want to cross the border.

That's what I said. No saving face here. I dont' need to save face with you.
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cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
You're the one wanting to completely shut the border, not me.

Show me where I said that.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 17):
I said that 1. We SHOULD monitor the border,

Show me where you said that.

[Edited 2005-07-30 17:17:57]
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Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 17):
Show me where you said that.

Read reply 12, bucko. I won't help you find it.
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cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
Read reply 12, bucko. I won't help you find it.

Reply 12 was after I called you on the BS you were selling, in reply 11. You're still reversing yourself, I'm afraid.

Once again, where did you say, prior to reply 11, that "We SHOULD monitor the border" or words to that effect?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:29 am

Whatever Charles, you're making something out of nothing. I said at the beginning I was against CLOSING THE BORDER. I never EVER said I was against patrolling or monotoring it. I am against "patrolling" it with these xenophobic vigilantes. That's not the way to do it.

Get your head out in the sunshine, Charles. End of discussion.

[Edited 2005-07-30 17:30:37]
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cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:36 am

Falcon, when caught standing in a pile of BS of your own making, you have to have the guts to say, "Oops, you got me there". It's happened to me too.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
N1120A
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 2):
, illegal immigration is the biggest problems facing the country

Try one of the only things currently holding our horrible economy up
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aa61hvy
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 5):

Throughout history racism and immigration have gone hand in hand

Human nature dictates us to make fun of or pick on something we do not understand..
Go big or go home
 
cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Try one of the only things currently holding our horrible economy up

I see someone has not been reading...

So you think that having a sub-class of people is ok then? A class of people that have no minimum wage, who are made to work in unsafe conditions because their employers know they can't go running to the authorities? Great values... Why not bring back slavery while you're at it.

I'm all for immigration, but make it legal, with a guestworker program, and citizenship after 5 or 10 years of good behaviour.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:36 am

Well, this has been an interesting thread . . . .

Before I respond to some of the posts . . . .

I was/am all for this action on the Border . . . and I made the stipulation that I would continue to support it until people started to die. I didn't think it would go this long without a casualty . . . someone would get trigger happy. That hasn't happened.

It's no secret I'm adamantly opposed to Illegal Immigration. Period. There are no if's and's or but's here. Adamantly opposed. I give no quarter.

Legal Immigration is great - absolutely. This country formed itself on immigration. Hell, my blood is full of Ireland, Denmark, and Israel . . . along with some Cherokee . . . guess that explains the temper.

If the Vigilantes on the border are turning this issue from a National Security/Border Security issue into a racial issue - they have left the ballpark. Unfortunately.

Clearly our DHS widgets aren't effective . . .

Some I know personally know the illegals attempting to cross between the US and Mexico BY NAME! Because they try all the time. Interestingly the agents I know tell me when they don't see "Juan" any longer they know he make it across . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Obviously, NAFTA hasn't worked,

Understatement of the Year nominee my friend. It was destined to fail from the start. It looks good on paper - like CAFTA - but will do nothing to support the poorer countries. The people that like these treaties - Big Business. Why - they can outsource more American Jobs and reap the profits after the goods are shipped back here for sale to Americans. All things considered, it's really that frickin' simple.

No NAFTA won't work - because we let Mexican Truckers cross the border with Mexican made goods for American companies manufactured by the honorable Mexican worker for mere pennies on the dollar at which this product will be sold . . . you don't honestly believe the Mexican worker got a hefty pay raise to manufacture this product? You don't honestly think the American public got a break on the price of said item upon it's sale in the US? Nope - Big Business put that money in their pocket . . . simple as that.

So, NAFTA and subsequently CAFTA have/will fail.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
How about Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, post-war Germany,

I would agree with your commentary here as far as the countries concerned . . . however, I submit it has not and will not work in Central America. Simple reason . . . with the exception of Post War Germany, the other countries you list are surrounded by countries in as bad or worse fiscal and standard of living shape than they are. There is everything to lose and nothing really to gain by possessing a lousy work ethic in say - Taiwan. Where are they going to go - Communist China?

In Mexico however, one can migrate north - illegally - and make a far better living than staying at the Ford Engine Plant in Hermosilla (I think that's where it is).

Furthermore - the folks in said countries KNOW they are stuck - except for our Mexican friends. . . who can easily get across the US border and do better here than in Mexico (as far as wages) . . . and probably NOT get caught because our border protection sucks shit, there is no penalty for employing them, they will get free medical care if hurt, they can get a Driver's License, have kids, send them to US Schools . . . yadda, yadda . . .

Summation: If the Vigilante Program has turned Racist in Principle it is time to call the ball on that. There will be a casualty - and if so - prosecution is warranted.

These are people we're dealing with here . . . if they get caught crossing, send them back without recourse, without quarter . . .

No to worry, they'll try again . . . and again . . . and again . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
I was/am all for this action on the Border . . . and I made the stipulation that I would continue to support it until people started to die. I didn't think it would go this long without a casualty . . . someone would get trigger happy.

Isn't one dead guy one too many? ANC, I thought you have some background or ties to law enforcement? I'm surprised you are advocating leaving the border protection up to some trigger-happy rednecks with twisted sense of patriotic duty .
That just implies that law enforcement is so simple (which is not) ANYONE can do it.
I think your country is entitled to protect our border how your government deems reasonable (I may not like the big brotheresque measures and outright hostility of the INS, but that's different issue) but why not LEAVE IT TO THE PROFESSIONALS?
 
PDPsol
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Obviously, NAFTA hasn't worked



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
Understatement of the Year nominee my friend. It was destined to fail from the start. It looks good on paper - like CAFTA - but will do nothing to support the poorer countries. The people that like these treaties - Big Business. Why - they can outsource more American Jobs and reap the profits after the goods are shipped back here for sale to Americans. All things considered, it's really that frickin' simple.

You are COMPLETELY mistaken in your comments regarding the North American Free Trade Agreement [NAFTA], ratified by the US, Mexico and Canada in the fall of 1993. NAFTA has been a huge success by any margin:

- In the first decade since the implementation of the treaty in 1994, annual two-way trade between the US and Mexico has almost TRIPLED to $232 billion, from $81 billion. Also, US exports to Mexico and Canada have grown faster than imports from those countries and faster than exports to nations outside of NAFTA.

- During the same decade, the unemployment rate in the US has fallen to our current rate of below 5% from 6.4%, and over 18 million net jobs have been created in our economy. US productivity and wages have all climbed steadily since 1994.

- In addition, Mexico's economy and political system is INFINITELY stronger today than it was before 1994.

- Following decades of boom/bust economic cycles, Mexico now has an investement-grade sovereign credit rating, a very strong testment to the nation's responsible fiscal and monetary policies. Mexican sovereign obligations currently trade at VERY tight credit spreads over US Treasuries [less than 250bps] and the nation's currency remains strong. This is an AMAZING development and should not be dismissed.

- Mexico's citizens have never faced a more favorable environment for investment and economic growth than they do today. The nation's long-term prospects are excellent and the difficult political and economic reforms implemented over the past 15 years have yielded benefits for all Mexican citizens.

- Of course, Mexico remains a poor nation, without the political and institutional transparency that prevails among its northern neighbors. However, the country has made enourmous strides in political plurality and economic progress since the implementation of NAFTA and will continue to develop if it remains committed to political and economic liberalization. NAFTA has absolutely been a catalyst for these favorable developments.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):
You are COMPLETELY mistaken in your comments regarding the North American Free Trade Agreement [NAFTA], ratified by the US, Mexico and Canada in the fall of 1993. NAFTA has been a huge success by any margin:

Sure, that's why illegals are still flooding in here. If it had been a real success, the poor and middle class in Mexico would be booming, which is what we were led to believe it would do. It's not, and they're still coming here becuase all NAFTA has benefitted is the rich and big business. That's it.
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PDPsol
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Sure, that's why illegals are still flooding in here. If it had been a real success, the poor and middle class in Mexico would be booming, which is what we were led to believe it would do.

The objective of the NAFTA accord signatories was to develop trade and economic ties between their respective states, increase economic efficiency and strengthen regional development. These objectives have been been achieved with resounding success.

It is outrageously naive to believe a nation with 105 million inhabitants, historically-opaque political institutions and [at the time in 1994] essentially a one-party political system can, in only ten years, create a 'boom' to move its poor into the ranks of the middle class. Such things do not happen overnight or in ten years for that matter. The primary reasons for increased immigration from Mexico lie with the nation's demographic makeup, not a supposed 'failure' of the NAFTA accord.

It is much more important to note the direction Mexico's economy and political institutions are heading in. By all accounts, the direction is favorable and NAFTA has done much to encourage important policy decisions over the past decade. Mexico may very likely elect the PRD candidate in the 2006 presidential elections, yet investors are not fazed in the least. That says a lot about the strength and development of the nation's progress.

NAFTA has absolutely enhanced the economic and political interests of the US. We have a stronger neighbor to our south with a growing economy, responsible fiscal and monetary policy and increasingly transparent political institutions. NAFTA is one of the best political investments our nation has ever made and we will continue to reap the benefits of this accord for many, many years in the future.

[Edited 2005-07-31 06:30:05]
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
Isn't one dead guy one too many?

Did you not read what I wrote?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
I would continue to support it until people started to die.

How much clearer do you need it?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
why not LEAVE IT TO THE PROFESSIONALS?

Because they are ineffective and inadequate. Simple as that. They suck. And it's not necessarily their fault.

. . . .

Pdpsol . . . seems to me as though the only country benefiting from NAFTA, according to your numbers, is Mexico . . .

I could honestly care less what the effect has been on Mexico . . . I'm concerned about the effect it has had on the US . . . every job lost because of outsourcing is a crime. Every engine built in Mexico for use in the US is a crime.

Your fuzzy math doesn't hold water with me . . . . $232B vs $81B . . . how much of that is inflation and how much of it is export of raw goods and reimportation of manufactured products from those goods.

CAFTA will be no better than NAFTA . . . .

But back to topic . . .

The illegals crossing the border need to be stopped . . . and sent home. If that means, L410 - to use your ignorant stereotypical terminology, a redneck Texan with a rifle, yellow lab and jeep has to stand watch, then so be it.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cfalk
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
I could honestly care less what the effect has been on Mexico . . . I'm concerned about the effect it has had on the US . . . every job lost because of outsourcing is a crime. Every engine built in Mexico for use in the US is a crime.

Do you feel the same way for the emplyees of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. which are made in the US? BMW makes all their sports cars and SUV's in the U.S. and ships them to Europe. Is that criminal as well?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:05 pm

Interesting thread...fun watching folks get caught up in their own talking points.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
who's sole motivation was racism, and the desire to keep anything that wasn't white on the other side of the border?

First off...these idiots are from Goliad, I am not surprised. But beyond that why shouldn't people be concerned about what is coming across the border white or brown...especially if it is against the law. Somehow that seems to get lost in the mix...HELLO...what these "undocumented workers" are doing is illegal.

I have heard many a story from friends and family that have to put up with illegals on their land along the border and in the valley...not all of them are happy go lucky folks just hard up for a job, things can get scary real quick.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico.

HELL NO. It is not my job or anyone else's job to improve the standard of living in Mexico. We have enough people sucking off the govt. teet here to worry about before putting resources into a horribly corrupt country like Mexico. Have you ever been to Mexico Alpha? And I don't mean Cancun, Cozumel, etc...Hell even the Mexican Govt. doesn't want them to stop coming over here.

If it were up to me...close down the border with physical barriers if need be...millions of people are passing through each year and then vanishing into the fabric of the States...but with that needs to come more efficent ways of legally allowing those that want to an opportunity here in the States. And it certainly isn't racist as the talking heads on the left would have us believe, dumbasses from Goliad or not.

This is just one of the things I can not stand about Bush...how this man, this administration, this government can't see the border as a huge issue is beyond me.

Oh, and the BP's I know are quietly in favor of what the MM are doing.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:30 am

It is interesting I have yet to see a thought along the lines of *which group is threatening illegal actions…

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
but didn't those of use who opposed this whole Minutemen idea from the beginning say this would happen-that it would fill up with a ton of racists goons, who's sole motivation was racism



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Who is really surprised by this?

Falcon – I’m pleasantly surprised the Texas Minuteman leader stepped down because the group is too racist for him. I’ve mentioned many times the Minutemen = racism.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
It's just another post 9/11 black eye to the image of this country.

Even worse – Congressman John Culberson (R-TX) introduced a bill to provide vigilantes with federal funds, weapons, and training.  eyepopping 

Extremist Culberson is consistently ranked by watchdog groups as the most far-right wacko.


Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
Especially when there is no incentive for the government to shape up, when they can simply export their unwanted, unemployed masses to the north? As an added bonus, many of those people end up sending a lot of money back home to Mexico.

Those unemployed masses are very valuable to the Mexican economy; sending I forget how many Millions of $$$ home each year.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
I understand that the Mexican government actually produces handouts and pamphlets for people attempting to cross illegally, telling them where are the best places to do it, at what times of day, etc.

Correct.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
I didn't think it would go this long without a casualty . . . someone would get trigger happy. That hasn't happened.

The fact that no one has gotten hurt is laudable. Ditto for the head of the Texas Minutemen contingent stepping down with the reasoning “they are too racist.”

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 32):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico.

HELL NO. It is not my job or anyone else's job to improve the standard of living in Mexico.

A low standard of living in Mexico is probably the #1 cause of illegal immigration.

Help improve the standard of living = less illegal immigration.

I don’t want people *sucking off the govt* but I’d rather have my money vying for a stronger social support network in Mexico than have illegals continue come to this country to *suck off the govt*

Think of it as preventive medicine.



Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 32):
Hell even the Mexican Govt. doesn't want them to stop coming over here.

A primary reason the Mexican government does nothing about illegal immigration is the hundreds of Millions of $$$ a year illegals send home. And that’s cash money. REAL MONEY – not paper.

 spin 
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):
Do you feel the same way for the emplyees of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. which are made in the US? BMW makes all their sports cars and SUV's in the U.S. and ships them to Europe. Is that criminal as well?

Humorously, CFalk - I only buy Big Ass Ford Diesel Trucks, so I could give a shit less about Toyota, Nissan, Bmer, or any other automotive manufacturer . . . hell, I could give a shit less about Chevrolet and *cough*Chrysler*cough* . . .

And there is no such thing as a BMW SUV . . . it's a pretty boy souped up car with a title . . . take it 4-wheelin' and see what happens . . . oh, wait - don't wanna scratch that paint!  wink 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
What is needed is for the U.S. to help Mexico raise it's standard of living so people will WANT to stay in Mexico

First, I say we already do that . . . the illegal immigrants here send their $$$ home don't they?

Second, I'm sorry, but we have enough poverty in our own population, don't you think we ought to try to help them first before we help a foreign country?
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):

Excelent POSt, its nice to see real informed people here...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Sure, that's why illegals are still flooding in here. If it had been a real success, the poor and middle class in Mexico would be booming, which is what we were led to believe it would do. It's not, and they're still coming here becuase all NAFTA has benefitted is the rich and big business. That's it.

Those rich and benefited are US companies that profit from those low wages, its part of what makes cars and trucks very cheap in the States, also the HUHE ammount of illegals in the food industry make your vgetables and lord knows what else cheap for YOU to buy, so its a 2 way street SO ILL SAY IT AGAIN, no country is abtaining a free lunch here.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
I could honestly care less what the effect has been on Mexico . . . I'm concerned about the effect it has had on the US . . . every job lost because of outsourcing is a crime. Every engine built in Mexico for use in the US is a crime.

Your fuzzy math doesn't hold water with me . . . . $232B vs $81B . . . how much of that is inflation and how much of it is export of raw goods and reimportation of manufactured products from those goods.

So every outsourced job lost is a crime? mmm maybe you are willing to put all corporate America behind bars because its the government with their laws and corporate America the ones doing THE OUTSOURCING not Mexico....

You shold check what you call fuzzy math pal, because you are badly informed, most of the goods Mexico imports from the US are MANEFACTURED GOODS, and we export a lot of raw materials to the US, and also Mexicans working illegally in the US send 20 to 23 billion US dollars each year to Mexico, Most estimates say that NOT more than one fifth of what an illegal makes in the US is sent back to Mexico so they generate at least 20x5, 100 billion dolars a YEAR in the US economy by buying things and spending, taking into account that sales tax is around 7%, at least 7 billion go to taxes, THAT IS NOT FUZZY MATH.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):
Do you feel the same way for the emplyees of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. which are made in the US? BMW makes all their sports cars and SUV's in the U.S. and ships them to Europe. Is that criminal as well?

Its amazing how xenofobic a nation of inmigrats can become, isnt it IRONIC? if the Japanesse car companies left the US in the 90 and they never came back, if those companies making products for the North American Market left the US because outsourcing WAS a crime, heck they be driving Gremlins, Pacers, Pintos and crappy cars...

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 33):
Those unemployed masses are very valuable to the Mexican economy; sending I forget how many Millions of $$$ home each year.

20 billion a year, and let me explain WHY the inmigration is so big.
Mexico is not a Poor country, is a inmensely rich country with a very bad distribution of wealth and education, with a very corrupt government. Around 40% of the population was/is country based, and they survive working as farmers. Since the 60 the US has made subsidies to the US farmers,and with the NAFTA the things only worsened because of incredible low prices for US crops and control of the prices of goods, so the Mexican farmer who was very poor to start with became miserabily poor, so they eft the fields to go to the US, if you travel to Mexico you will see a ton of small towns with NO CROPS and almost no men, because all are working in the US in the fields, just doing excatly wath put them into extreme poverty in the first place....

Its a very complex problem I DO NOT endorse illegals in the US, but if the US did not benefit from them, they would have shut down the border a long time ago...

best regards
TRB
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Vigilantes Too Racist & Mexicans Shoot Back!

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 35):
Mexicans working illegally in the US send 20 to 23 billion US dollars each year to Mexico, Most estimates say that NOT more than one fifth of what an illegal makes in the US is sent back to Mexico so they generate at least 20x5, 100 billion dolars a YEAR in the US economy by buying things and spending, taking into account that sales tax is around 7%, at least 7 billion go to taxes, THAT IS NOT FUZZY MATH.

Do you have a source for this? I’m not challenging the info; I just want to read more about it. Specifically, the amount illegals send back home. I’ve done a search on NPR and Yahoo to no avail.

Thank you for the post.
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