Falcon84
Topic Author
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Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:04 am

First we have the infamous T.O. holding out from the Eagles, because, as he does every other year, he wants a new deal. Now, Hines Ward, still under contract to the Steelers, is doing the same thing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2121284

What's your take? Should pro franchises negotiate with players, STILL UNDER CONTRACT, who hold out? It's different if their contract has expired.

Personally, if I'm a team, if they hold out while still under contract, I break off negotiations, as Pittsburgh has done (damn if I don't hate the Steelers, but I admire how they do business). If a player puts his name on a contract, he shold live up it until it's at it's end.

Damn, there's my decency and set of morals showing again.  Big grin

What say you?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Logan22L
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:08 am

It's a problem right now in NE with Richard Seymour. One of the best defensive linemen in the game, and he's whining about getting a re-structured deal. In principle, I agree with you. Perhaps it is best to just cut-off talks if a player won't live up to a contract. That said, we really need Richard Seymour. Damn.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
jamesag96
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:17 am

Absolutely not...you sign the line you do the time.

You would think that teams by now would right things like that into the contract, maybe they do I don't know.

That being said, what kind of recourse does a player have if the team decides it wants to change things?

[Edited 2005-08-01 18:18:18]
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
KROC
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:19 am

If a player signed a contract, they should be big enough to honor it. If their performance might mean more money should they be up for a new contract they should be able to ask, but it would be up to the team to grant them more money. Either way the player must hit the training camps and play no matter what. A player knows what he is doing when he signs say a 7 year 49 million dollar contract. If the player under performs, he still expects to make the same amount of money he signed for. The owner doesn't come with a renegoatiated contract for less money based on poor play. If the player plays above and beyond...he still is going to pull in 49 mil!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 3):
If the player under performs, he still expects to make the same amount of money he signed for.

Great point, KROC. You don't see T.O. saying he'll give back money if he sucks the joint up, do you? He's say, "man, I signed the contract, I'm not giving anything back". Well, he should also honor it, since it was good enough when he signed it.
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halls120
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:30 am

Unless the contract was not entered into in good faith, both parties should abide by the terms of the contract.

OTOH, the reality of pro sports is that if you are a superstar, you very often get your way.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:05 am

I absolutely am behind the Steelers on this. Once you holdout for training camp you're showing that you may default on other aspects of the contract. I feel for Hines in that I agree that there comes a time when if a player has exceeded the expectations of his original contract then that player and a team should sit down and discuss renegotiating it early - that I have no problems with. Ward's been a stand-up player for the Steelers and, in my mind, has been one of the hearts of this team. But for him to hold out? I agree with the Steelers.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
WellHung
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:12 am

While a player should certainly honor the contract he signs, it would be nice to see the NFL teams and owners held to the same standard. Until there is some limit on a team's ability to basically cut anyone at any time, it is easy to understand a player's desire to get everything he can. It's still wrong, but understandable considering the circumstances.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:20 am

You sign it, you honor it. It's as simple as that. The concept is the same in sports as it is, or at least should be, everywhere else.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:20 am

Generally NO! One problem is that in the NFL, you have specific budget for your player saleries/related costs and generally have little wiggle room for more money for some ego tripping star. To offer someone more money and stay in the budget, you may have to a veteren player who you might need during the season when injuries hit (backup QB, rusher, tackle).
I do think all contracts should be a little less in base money, and with individual and team wide incentive bonuses for individual and team achievements.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:23 am

I think TO is being a baby, he is gettin paid alot of money to be a showboat, big play WR. As others have said he is hurting his relationship with Philly, if he plays with them this year, he will be gone for sure next year. TO will stir up the pot in PHL too, he will pull a Manny Ramirez and beg to get out (exlcuding Manny's remarks on ESPN last night).
Go big or go home
 
Greyhound
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 2):
Absolutely not...you sign the line you do the time.

Well, in the military at least.

Bad thing is you want to get everyone in training camp as soon as possible to get them all on the same page. But, this point said it best:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
You don't see T.O. saying he'll give back money if he sucks the joint up, do you? He's say, "man, I signed the contract, I'm not giving anything back

How many times have we seen in pro sports where someone will sign a multi million dollar contract and then get injured and the team gets stuck with a $xxxxxxxxxx bill for a guy who isin't worth anything to the team on the field?

Quoting WellHung (Reply 7):
Until there is some limit on a team's ability to basically cut anyone at any time, it is easy to understand a player's desire to get everything he can. It's still wrong,

Good point. I can see why that would cause someone to hold out for a large mega contract when they're looking to sign somewhere, but not in the middle of their contract. T.O. and others like him think that they're the ONLY or at least the BIGGEST reason why their teams experience success. I can't see negotiating with someone who's attitude seems to cover the entire field instead of just their position.
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KROC
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 11):
Quoting WellHung (Reply 7):
Until there is some limit on a team's ability to basically cut anyone at any time, it is easy to understand a player's desire to get everything he can. It's still wrong,

Good point. I can see why that would cause someone to hold out for a large mega contract when they're looking to sign somewhere, but not in the middle of their contract. T.O. and others like him think that they're the ONLY or at least the BIGGEST reason why their teams experience success. I can't see negotiating with someone who's attitude seems to cover the entire field instead of just their position.

I don't buy that. Contracts are guaranteed and if TO blew out his knee and could never play again, he still collects his 49 mil.
 
dl021
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:37 am

I have a real problem with players holding out for contracts. If they think they can get it, then more power to them, but I think the owners need to realize that in the NFL there is always a hundred other guys waiting for their opportunity to shine, and the guy who holds out is also tearing down the team for his own ends.

It's bad for the teams and for the sport. I say let the holdout sit out. See what happens to them when they lose a year of prime playing and how much other teams want to pay for a guy who won't honor his contract.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:56 am

I think they're overpaid primadonnas . . .

If you play you get paid . . . blow out a knee, can't play, no pay . . .

If you break the rules, no pay . . .

Plenty of other folks out there can play the game be it football, baseball, basketball, etc . . . so these primadonnas making $10m a year need to rethink their position.

Don't show up for spring training cause you're holding out - breach of contract - bye bye. Don't show for practice - breach of contract - bye bye.

Primadonnas . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
srbmod
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:11 am

If I were the GM or owner of a team and I had a player under contract that was holding out, I'd sue them for breach of contract. Tell them to either end the holdout or I will sue you for damages.

The mindset of some of these players is truly idiotic. "If the owners can cut us or buy us out at will, we should be able to do the same." Hello, if it wasn't for the owners, you'd be flipping burgers or unloading trucks instead of playing professional sports. The owner and the GM are the bosses of everyone on the team, so you either deal with it or retire. In the real world, a person can't refuse to go to work becuase they feel they deserve a better salary; if one of us did that, our next paychecks wuld be coming from the gov't.
 
WellHung
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdou

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 12):
Contracts are guaranteed

Please elaborate. The only guaranteed money (for the vast majority of players) is signing bonuses - which can also discourage teams from cutting players because of the cap hit. Just ask Ty Law how 'guaranteed' the contracts are.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
so these primadonnas making $10m a year need to rethink their position.

In 2004, there was only one NFL player who made more than $10 million (base plus prorated signing bonus, etc.) That player is not currently in a contract dispute. So the only one who needs to rethink their position is you - hopefully to an informed one.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):
If I were the GM or owner of a team and I had a player under contract that was holding out, I'd sue them for breach of contract.

And what would you expect to get from such a lawsuit? The players don't get paid if they don't play.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):
if it wasn't for the owners, you'd be flipping burgers or unloading trucks instead of playing professional sports.

And what would the owners be doing if it wasn't for the players?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 16):
In 2004, there was only one NFL player who made more than $10 million (base plus prorated signing bonus, etc.) That player is not currently in a contract dispute. So the only one who needs to rethink their position is you - hopefully to an informed one

It was an example Hero . . . get over yourself . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dl021
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):
if it wasn't for the owners, you'd be flipping burgers or unloading trucks instead of playing professional sports.

WH-And what would the owners be doing if it wasn't for the players?

They would be making money doing whatever it was prior to buying their teams. The players need the owners more than vice versa. There's always more players for the owners to recruit. People seem to forget the 87 season.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 10):
I think TO is being a baby, he is gettin paid alot of money to be a showboat, big play WR. As others have said he is hurting his relationship with Philly

Ditto...though reactions here are mixed...one thing pretty much everyone here in Philly agrees on though is that his agent, Drew Rosenhaus, is the biggest f***in douchebag on the face of the earth...

Greg
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WellHung
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
It was an example Hero . . . get over yourself . . .

It has no basis in reality, therefore it cannot be an example. If said player who made $10+ million was in a contract dispute, then it could be considered an example. But not in this case. It's not my fault you're uninformed.

Hope that's not too far over your head, officer.
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:40 am

I agree. Let him sit out and not get paid.

Funny how with TO when it came down to getting a paycheck or not, he sure is in camp.
This is the Last Stop.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 19):
Drew Rosenhaus, is the biggest f***in douchebag on the face of the earth...

I would never hire that asshole as an agent if I was a sports player, the guy is great agressor, but there is a line that he crosses.
Go big or go home
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Should Pro Teams Negotiate W/Contracted Holdouts?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 11):
How many times have we seen in pro sports where someone will sign a multi million dollar contract and then get injured and the team gets stuck with a $xxxxxxxxxx bill for a guy who isin't worth anything to the team on the field?

Kellen Winslow, Jr, comes to mind.  butthead 

Quoting WellHung (Reply 16):
Please elaborate. The only guaranteed money (for the vast majority of players) is signing bonuses

He's got you there, KROC, insofar as the NFL goes. Now, in basketball and baseball, there's a helluva lot more guaranteed money, and that's the part I don't like. In the NFL the only guaranteed money, as WH pointed out, is usually the signing bonus.

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 19):
Drew Rosenhaus, is the biggest f***in douchebag on the face of the earth...

Yes he is, but when is the last time YOU saved a 3-year old from drowing?  Big grin
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