MaverickM11
Topic Author
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NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/business/29cnd-econ.html?

"Morgan Stanley plans to revise its forecast for third-quarter growth to more than 5 percent, up from 3.7 percent, Mr. Greenlaw said. In the second quarter, growth in the nation's gross domestic product exceeded 3 percent for the ninth straight quarter, the longest such streak since the mid-1980's."

"Those good times seem poised to continue. A survey of Midwestern purchasing managers released today offered some early evidence of the growth spurt that could come from the recent fall in inventories. Production and new orders both surged in July, after having slowed for much of the spring, according to the Chicago branch of the National Association of Purchasing Management."

"The U.S. is growing faster than the rest of the world," Mr. Greenlaw said. "It's very difficult to cut into your trade deficit in that environment."
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:04 am

It's easy to grow when government spending is out of control. MOre deficits for everyone!!!!!
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
jaysit
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
"The U.S. is growing faster than the rest of the world," Mr. Greenlaw said. "It's very difficult to cut into your trade deficit in that environment."

Obviously, this Mr Greenlaw, or the NYT, haven't looked at the growth figures for China (9-10% projected growth annually) and India (7-8% annual growth rates).

Where do these people come from?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dl021
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:17 am

Wow, must be a conservative plot to get the NYT to print such drivel. Imagine such a thing....the US economy doing well! Says who? And anyway....so what if we have this growth for such a long time (9 qtrs...thats like 27 months)....it's only temporary...


Jaysit...that's a bit disengenous when you take into account that China and India can easily expand much more dramatically due to the fact that they are starting from much farther down the food chain economically speaking.

It's much easier to expand 10% of $100 than 5% of 1000, especially when you take into account the population differences.

Plus, our expansion of 3% probably outstrips, dollar wise, any growth in a developing economy.

The real questions for those countries will be when will their poverty level and likelihood for starvation come into line with ours.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Where do these people come from?

...yeah, but cher, consider the source.

I mean, it's the NYT-- why confuse it with journalism??  Wink
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Obviously, this Mr Greenlaw, or the NYT, haven't looked at the growth figures for China (9-10% projected growth annually) and India (7-8% annual growth rates).

I'm not surprised to see the Bush-haters poo-pooing economic growth. The deficit is going down, unemployment is heading down, growth is going strong, etc., and all you can say is that India and China is doing better.

The real champ is actually Iraq.

Rank Country GDP - real growth rate
(%) Date of Information
1 Iraq 52.30 2004 est.
2 Chad 38.00 2004 est.
3 Liberia 21.80 2004 est.
4 Equatorial Guinea 20.00 2002 est.
5 Venezuela 16.80 2004 est.
6 Macau 15.60 2003
7 Ukraine 12.00 2004 est.
8 Angola 11.70 2004 est.
9 Ethiopia 11.60 2004 est.
10 Liechtenstein 11.00 1999 est.
11 Mongolia 10.60 2004 est.
12 Tajikistan 10.50 2004 est.
13 Uruguay 10.20 2004 est.
14 Faroe Islands 10.00 2001 est.
15 Azerbaijan 9.80 2004 est.
16 Georgia 9.50 2004 est.
17 China 9.10 2004 est.
18 Kazakhstan 9.10 2004 est.
19 Armenia 9.00 2004 est.
20 Qatar 8.70 2004 est.
21 Argentina 8.30 2004 est.
22 Mozambique 8.20 2004 est.
23 Turkey 8.20 2004 est.
24 Romania 8.10 2004 est.
25 Singapore 8.10 2004 est.
26 Hong Kong 7.90 2004 est.
27 Vietnam 7.70 2004 est.
28 Latvia 7.60 2004 est.
29 Afghanistan 7.50 2004 est.
30 Turkmenistan 7.50 2004 est.
31 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 7.50 2004 est.
32 San Marino 7.50 2001 est.
33 Cook Islands 7.10 2001 est.
34 Malaysia 7.10 2004 est.
35 Kuwait 6.80 2004 est.
36 Moldova 6.80 2004 est.
37 Russia 6.70 2004 est.
38 Lithuania 6.60 2004 est.
39 Serbia and Montenegro 6.50 2004 est.
40 Belarus 6.40 2004 est.
41 Sudan 6.40 2004 est.
42 Iran 6.30 2004 est.
43 India 6.20 2004 est.
44 Nigeria 6.20 2004 est.
45 Algeria 6.10 2004 est.
46 Thailand 6.10 2004 est.
47 Pakistan 6.10 2004 est.
48 Estonia 6.00 2004 est.
49 Gambia, The 6.00 2004 est.
50 West Bank 6.00 2003 est

If you look at the list, you can see that the poorer the country, the faster you can potentially grow. Iraq, China and India are growing fast because they were so far behind to begin with. The U.S. does not have 75% of their population living on $100 per month.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jaysit
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Jaysit...that's a bit disengenous when you take into account that China and India can easily expand much more dramatically due to the fact that they are starting from much farther down the food chain economically speaking.

That's not the point.

Of course, developing economies can develop faster than advanced economies.

The point is that these experts should add qualifyers to their statements. The US IS growing faster than its advanced economy compatriots like France, Japan, Germany (the former two being the perennial laggards of the global economy). Among advanced economies, only Ireland, I believe, is seeing a faster economic growth rate than the US.

Contrary to most people, I also don't believe that the housing market is a "bubble economy." In fact, my faith in both the economy and the housing market led me to buy a new place with the most fr*ggin' amazing views in all of Washington, DC this past weekend !

Of course, we're all screwed if these projections are merely gloss, a temporary blip (which has happened before), and if the housing market crashes.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B744F
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
The deficit is going down

WHAT????

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
unemployment is heading down

Until the Fed raises rates even more

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
growth is going strong

Until the Fed raises rates even more
 
B744F
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
The real questions for those countries will be when will their poverty level and likelihood for starvation come into line with ours.

You don't have to worry, the US is doing a fine job of lowering our own level down to try to meet theirs

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
"Those good times seem poised to continue."

Not if Mr Greenspan gets in the way, like he is supposed to do. "fighting inflation" they call it, but it should be called "protecting the wealth of the few"
 
Superfly
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:39 am

This is a great time to be rich in the United States.
Bring back the Concorde
 
767Lover
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):

You should know, my San Francisco-livin' friend!

[Edited 2005-08-02 00:48:52]
 
Superfly
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 10):
You should know, my San Francisco-livin' friend!

 Confused
Bring back the Concorde
 
767Lover
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:06 am

[quote=Superfly,reply=11[/quote]

You'd have to be reasonably well-off to be living in SF proper.
 
B744F
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
You'd have to be reasonably well-off to be living in SF proper.

Or you live like many people and have roomates and pay something like 300-600 a month. That isn't "well off"
 
Superfly
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
You'd have to be reasonably well-off to be living in SF proper.

True but I am not rich.
I just spend my money wisely.  Smile
I have to pay high federal taxes because I chose not to be married and have children at this stage of my life.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Pope
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
True but I am not rich.
I just spend my money wisely.
I have to pay high federal taxes because I chose not to be married and have children at this stage of my life.

And the hypocrisy of the left is once again clearly displayed through their own words. According to most liberals, if a person is well off and conservative, it's because they got the money by cheating someone else out of it, taking advantage of someone else, stealing or inheriting it. However, if a liberal is well off, it's because they've spent their money wisely.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Superfly
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:38 am

Pope:
So how am I a hypocrit?
Would you be happier if I were poor & liberal?

Again, I am NOT rich.
I worked for everything I have.
Bring back the Concorde
 
dl021
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
The real questions for those countries will be when will their poverty level and likelihood for starvation come into line with ours.

B744F-You don't have to worry, the US is doing a fine job of lowering our own level down to try to meet theirs


Do you not read your own posts? If the US is lowering the poverty rates then I guess we're doing the right thing.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Pope
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Pope:
So how am I a hypocrit?
Would you be happier if I were poor & liberal?

Again, I am NOT rich.
I worked for everything I have.

Because you regularly make statements to the effect that conservatives have gotten their money unethically - yet your money was earned through hard work and wise spending.

Hell your mentor - Howard Dean - flat out stated that Republicans have never worked an honest day in their lives.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Superfly
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:04 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Because you regularly make statements to the effect that conservatives have gotten their money unethically

Some conservative politicians; such as Bush.
I know many Republicans personally that worked hard for what they have.

I'd still like to hear 767Lover back up or explain her comments.
Bring back the Concorde
 
767Lover
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
I'd still like to hear 767Lover back up or explain her comments.

Sup,

I was just sort of razzin' ya a little bit. I just got back from SF last week visiting friends, and we were talking with them about how high the prices are there, that's all. He pays $2500 a month for a one-bedroom apt., and she just bought a really nothing house for $750,000 (in Mill Valley.)
 
B744F
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 17):
Do you not read your own posts? If the US is lowering the poverty rates then I guess we're doing the right thing.

Excuse me, I ment lowering our own standards to try to become as 3rd world as them. I enjoy it when people try to argue semantics when you know exactly what I'm saying, only because you have absolutely no real response.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:40 am

Actually, I don't think you really know what you are saying half the time, since your posts are rife with inaccuracies and misapprehensions.

You presuppose that the efforts to reduce inflation are geared toward the rich? Wrong...inflationary pressures hit the poor first, reducing their dollars buying power, and making it tougher on them to live.

You say we are lowering our standard of living to approach the third world?
You obviously have never been there. Our poor drive themselves to the unemployment office and shop with foodstamps in airconditioned supermarkets, while watching color television at home. Our standard of living is everincreasing.

So you are wrong and I am not hammering you on semantics...which I did not do earlier. I will hammer you on your inability to spell. Try using the spell check button.......better spelling and more accuracy in your facts will enhance your contributions to these threads.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:50 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
Actually, I don't think you really know what you are saying half the time, since your posts are rife with inaccuracies and misapprehensions.

Sure whatever you say, I am only human and make mistakes, but you are painting a picture of "my posts are rife with inaccuracies" as if everything I say is incorrect, and that is complete and utter nonsense.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
You presuppose that the efforts to reduce inflation are geared toward the rich? Wrong...inflationary pressures hit the poor first, reducing their dollars buying power, and making it tougher on them to live.

Ridiculous. The buying power is just a myth never proven beyond fantsy equations that have never worked in the real world. Inflation hurts M-2 and M-3, and that is what the wealthy have the most of. Their dollars are worth less in the future with inflation, and the Fed makes sure to curb it to their needs, not to the needs of the poor.

Inflation is good for the poor, it gives them higher salaries to negate the higher prices that companies charge, not because the "market" automatically raises prices, but because greedy people know they can get more for what they sell because of higher inflation.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
You say we are lowering our standard of living to approach the third world?
You obviously have never been there. Our poor drive themselves to the unemployment office and shop with foodstamps in airconditioned supermarkets, while watching color television at home. Our standard of living is everincreasing.

Unemployment lasts for a certain amount of months only, and gives you enough money to survive if you have no expenses to begin with. Food stamps are also harder to come by, and will not get you much at supermarkets. You have no idea where I've been, but go take a walk to your local ghetto and continue to preach your opinions about how "great" it is to live there. Our standard of living is NOT increasing, our life expencancy is going DOWN. Our average wages are going DOWN, our benefits and health coverage are going DOWN while prices are the only thing going up.

The only thing that constantly rises is the wealth of the few.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
So you are wrong and I am not hammering you on semantics...which I did not do earlier. I will hammer you on your inability to spell. Try using the spell check button.......better spelling and more accuracy in your facts will enhance your contributions to these threads.

I am wrong about nothing you have tried to point out. I have no problem spelling, I don't care to proof read or use any spell check, once in a while I will make a mistake, but I could care less. If you want to make this a grammar forum instead of a dicussion forum go right ahead but I will not follow. I have more accuracy that you could possibly contribute, you give nothing but the party line about everything you say, you follow the herd like most of the rest and cannot think for yourself about topics beyond your knowledge yet you insist to argue them anyway.
 
dl021
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:15 am

but go take a walk to your local ghetto and continue to preach your opinions about how "great" it is to live there

I live in the local ghetto. I do preach the gospel about the opportunities available to us, and even helped some of my neighbors find jobs. What have you done for the local poor where you are?

I've seen why many poor are poor, and it's partially because of whining socialist wannabes who tell them constantly that they are incapable of better, and should demand that others take care of them. It is a terrible thing to do to a community, but it has happened. People like you did it.

'I cannot think for myself about topics beyond my knowledge?' WTF? You have no idea what you are talking about.

Dude, get over yourself. Our standard of living is everincreasing, the life expectancy is still rising (check out the latest census stats, they seem to indicate that people are living longer).

As far as your accuracy goes....well, everything you do affects everything else you do, and your disregard for accuracy seems to pervade your factchecking and judgement. Since you are blissfully ignorant, I guess I'll stop suggesting helpful hints that might make your posts worth reading.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:40 am

More right-wing propoganda on Anet for those who insist that Bush's economy is the best ever.

Bull cookies. Keep cheering all you want. This economy is only good for one group-the rich, no one else. Oh, and blinded Bush supporters.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
It is a terrible thing to do to a community, but it has happened.

DL,

You are so right. For about 5 years I tutored an illiterate man in his 40s, from the "ghetto." (We met each week at a local library.) I was pretty hard on him. I got onto him when he didn't study. I REALLY gone onto him when it was apparent that he had smoked pot before class (in fact I flat out stopped the class during those times, telling him that it was a waste of my time for me to try to teach him when he was stoned.)

He came to respect me very much over those years. I ended up having to quit teaching him due to some family obligations, and on the last day he thanked me for making him study and not letting him just coast. He told me it was hard to learn to read, but that my being tough on him was the best thing I could have done because it made him learn something -- and that it showed I had faith in him. He had such severe learning problems that we didn't really make that much progress for the number of years we were together, but we made some.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
This economy is only good for one group-the rich, no one else.

The economy has been terrific for me, a middle class consumer who also happens to be self-employed. I own a very modest home, nice but by no means luxurious. I drive a 10 year old car. I am able to take a few plane trips now and then. I couldn't be happier with the way things are...and yes, this is despite my health insurance premiums being raised yet again.

There is absolutely no reason for me to have a chip on my shoulder about the "rich."
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
More right-wing propoganda on Anet for those who insist that Bush's economy is the best ever.

Falcon, I didn't see here where anyone said this Economy was the best ever.

What I saw was folks lauding the growth over the last 27 months . . .

I'm not rich, as you said the economy is only good/improving for the rich, but I can see a difference . . . other than gas prices . . . (alternative fuels anyone).
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:52 am

The Euros could learn a thing or two from us, given their significantly higher unemployment rates (in societies with DECLINING population numbers, mind you).
Live life to the fullest.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 20):
I was just sort of razzin' ya a little bit.

OK that's coo.  Smile
Fair enough.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 20):
I just got back from SF last week visiting friends

..and you didn't call? Big grin

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 20):
and she just bought a really nothing house for $750,000 (in Mill Valley.)

That's it?
That's cheap for Mill Valley!



$2500 for a 1 bedroom in San Francisco is in 2005 is in a very nice part of town. That's what the going rate was during the dotcom boom. He must have awesome views, parking, and close to everything. That isn't the norm even for SFO. A 1 bedroom will start from $900 up to $2500. Most are in the $1000 - $1500 range.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 26):
You are so right. For about 5 years I tutored an illiterate man in his 40s, from the "ghetto." (We met each week at a local library.) I was pretty hard on him. I got onto him when he didn't study. I REALLY gone onto him when it was apparent that he had smoked pot before class (in fact I flat out stopped the class during those times, telling him that it was a waste of my time for me to try to teach him when he was stoned.)

He came to respect me very much over those years. I ended up having to quit teaching him due to some family obligations, and on the last day he thanked me for making him study and not letting him just coast. He told me it was hard to learn to read, but that my being tough on him was the best thing I could have done because it made him learn something -- and that it showed I had faith in him. He had such severe learning problems that we didn't really make that much progress for the number of years we were together, but we made some.

That's awesome!
It's great to hear some of the good things people do on these boards.
Bring back the Concorde
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
Posts: 15214
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
More right-wing propoganda.

...from the NY Times  Silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:06 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
Inflation is good for the poor,

God, I can't believe I just read that. Somebody been smoking some pretty good stuff, and it ain't cigarettes.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
legend500
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:31 pm

It's interesting that these economic numbers tend to be presented out of context. Morgan-Stanley is bullish about economic growth, but says nothing about sustainability. The problem no one sees, and a significant fact in this discussion, is that a large amount of this growth is buoyed by massive increases in personal and governmental debt. As long as the economy keeps growing at an acceptable rate, it's not a significant problem. However, a protracted recession (6 quarters), sudden real estate collapse (where most personal and corporate debt is held) or geopolitical shift (China sells its US bonds, or converts to Euro) could make things very painful indeed. It's not a liberal vs. conservative issue either, both sides have been driving up the culture of something-for-nothing. The present economic growth is real but extremely fragile, and if buffeted by the slightest wind could come crashing down without notice. That's irresposible.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
That's awesome!
It's great to hear some of the good things people do on these boards.

Thanks! I try...every little bit helps.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:27 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
Inflation is good for the poor,


God, I can't believe I just read that. Somebody been smoking some pretty good stuff, and it ain't cigarettes.

Charles


Charles....some people not only don't understand how an economy works, but they feel good when they simply act contrarian toward whomever it is with whom they disagree the most....they think.

Falcon...you call it right wing propaganda....from the New York Times? C'mon...the results are the results. Look, argue about causes and futures, but the economy has been growing, manufacturing is way up..again.

I know everyone wants to know exactly how they personally benefit, because that's what it's all about. So here's how.

Falcons airline is making money, so they did not have to lay him off. I started a business, and it's making money, so my employees have a future with us.

When businesses are making money, they do so because people are buying from them, and they manage to keep expenses below revenues. When this happens they need employees, and they buy more stuff. They keep other companies in business, those companies need more employees and buy stuff. All those employees buy stuff....someone has to make all the stuff that everyone's buying. Someone has to grow food for those people, build cars for those people, sell them vacation packages, provide entertainment, etc.

An expanding economy is good for all of us, not just a few.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:43 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
An expanding economy is good for all of us, not just a few.

You are so right. I don't understand all these knee-jerk comments such as "it's only good for the rich."
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:20 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
An expanding economy is good for all of us, not just a few.

You are so right. I don't understand all these knee-jerk comments such as "it's only good for the rich."


-Because there are plenty of people who want the economic situation to be reflective of their political sensibilities and they further want everything to be fair. The problem is that life is not fair, and things will not always be equitable. As long as life is life they will think that something can be done to make it more even.

There are plenty of liberals who want simply to make things more secure, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there are enough that are convinced of the merits of socialism or Star Trek that they believe firmly in the taking from the "haves" to redistribute to the "have-nots".

I live in a transitioning enclave community in ATL and see this every day. The Loaf comes to our community meetings and reports how the rebuilding of Lynwood Park is tearing apart an old community and how the new residents are evil for doing so....but they fail to mention how we have reduced the number of crack houses from 7 or 8 to one or two (and they will be gone soon) and how property values for everyone have increased, allowing the 87 year old woman across the street to sell her 50 year old cinderblock shotgun shack for enough money to buy a nice house with a pool in Stone Mountain (decent community, where I actually grew up). They fail to mention that there are still plenty of long term residents who occupy stoops in vacant lots watching life go by, and waiting on someone to stop and give them a handout. They are reinforced in this behaviour by people like the Creative Loaf reporters who tell them how they are being prevented from access to good jobs by the same people who have "Help Wanted" signs in their businesses down the street, within walking distance for people who will show up to work...sober, on time, and willing to work.
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spinzels
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:00 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
An expanding economy is good for all of us, not just a few.

Well an expanding economy is better than an economy in recession I guess. And measured by unemployment figures and GDP growth, the US economy is indeed improving, and improving faster than that of Japan and most EU countries (although it should be noted that both numbers were significantly better during the best years of the Clinton economy). But using just these two numbers is a pretty shallow way to measure the health of an economy. Other measurements indicate a more confused picture. The labor force participation rate is well below where it should be, indicating that the unemployment figures misrepresent the employment picture (1) . Similarly, measured relative to trough of the most recent recession, real wages are well below where they should be compared to past recessions (2) , by contrast, corporate profits are well up, thanks to the ever shrinking cost of labor (Id.) .

So the expanding economy is good for all of us, but it is much, much better for those at the top of the economic ladder who have earn more money from investments than they take as wage-earners.

Then of course there is the issue of the price for our current economic health. The Bush administration is the most Keynesian since FDR, relying on massive government and special interest spending to prime the economic pump. Combined with the costs of our discretionary military involvement in Iraq (also good for pump priming) the result is that in five years we have gone from trillion dollar surpluses to trillion dollar deficits—such a dramatic deterioration in government finances is simply unprecedented in the annals of history.

The other issue is that government policy (esp. the reduction in the estate tax) is actually contributing to the wealth gap mentioned above, but that’s a story for another thread…



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
"The U.S. is growing faster than the rest of the world," Mr. Greenlaw said. "It's very difficult to cut into your trade deficit in that environment."

That's an odd line of reasoning. The primary cause of the US trade deficit is not purchases of imports into the US but the misbalance of payments caused by our terrible domestic savings rate; the purchase of foreign goods is only a small part of the causes of the trade deficit. (3)

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 33):
The present economic growth is real but extremely fragile, and if buffeted by the slightest wind could come crashing down without notice. That's irresposible.

You may be right, but generally most economists successfully predict the economy with the same results that a stopped clock gives the correct time, I don’t think that your results will be any better.

STATS:

(1) http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/ppb/2005/ppb052.pdf
(2) http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4221685
(3) http://news.ft.com/cms/s/79797f04-fe00-11d9-a289-00000e2511c8.html
I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Because you regularly make statements to the effect that conservatives have gotten their money unethically

Some conservative politicians; such as Bush.
I know many Republicans personally that worked hard for what they have.

And there are plenty of Liberals who made their money unethically. White collar crime occurs on both sides of the aisle. Please enlighten all of us as to how the Bush family fortune was gained any less ethically than say... The Kennedy family fortune.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
spinzels
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:00 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):
And there are plenty of Liberals who made their money unethically. White collar crime occurs on both sides of the aisle. Please enlighten all of us as to how the Bush family fortune was gained any less ethically than say... The Kennedy family fortune.

Perhaps what you are referring to is that supposedly the Kennedy fortune was made in part on the illegal distribution of alcoholic beverages during prohibition, although of course Joseph Kennedy Sr. had many other investments and business that helped make his fortune.

George W. Bush made his own personal fortune by convincing the City of Arlington to condemn by eminent domain the land of private homeowners and businesses and to turn it over to the Texas Rangers for redevelopment. The Rangers of course built a new ball park as well as redeveloped some of the condemned land (now vastly appreciated because of the stadium) for private development entirely unrelated to baseball. Additionally, the City of Arlington also kick in $135 million to build the ball park.

(Does that sound familiar to the facts behind a recent Supreme Court case that has conservatives outraged?)

Bush was the Rangers executive leading the efforts to have the city condemn the land and hand over the subsidy, and he used his successful stint as Rangers’ owner prominently as an example of his leadership experience in his successful 1994 campaign to unseat Anne Richards for governor of Texas.

Here are the numbers: Bush paid approximately $606,000 for a 1.6% stake of the team in 1989-90 (thanks in part to a loan from his close friends at the United Bank of Midland, who refuse to disclose any aspects of the terms of this loan). In addition to a salary of $200K/year, Bush received $14.9 million for his share of the team when it was sold in 1998…a tidy 2500% appreciation.

Now what can you tell us about the Kennedys?

Source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...0894D8404482&incamp=archive:search (subscription required-sorry)
I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting Spinzels (Reply 40):
Bush received $14.9 million for his share of the team when it was sold in 1998…a tidy 2500% appreciation.

He also claimed that as capital gains instead of income and thus was taxed the lower 20% instead of the tax rate he should have been taxed, 39%.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
I've seen why many poor are poor, and it's partially because of whining socialist wannabes who tell them constantly that they are incapable of better, and should demand that others take care of them. It is a terrible thing to do to a community, but it has happened. People like you did it.

Ridiculous, what "socialist" wannabes complain about is a lack of a fundamental base system to support the many poor people out there. The only people who are insulting their intelligence are the ones who claim "you can be sucessful if you only worked hard" THAT is the biggest insult to those who have not made it.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
Dude, get over yourself. Our standard of living is everincreasing, the life expectancy is still rising (check out the latest census stats, they seem to indicate that people are living longer).

Check them out yourself, declining for 2 straight years.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 26):
You are so right. For about 5 years I tutored an illiterate man in his 40s, from the "ghetto." (We met each week at a local library.)

While what you did was great, you act like these opportunities were available to anybody and everybody who wanted them.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 27):
There is absolutely no reason for me to have a chip on my shoulder about the "rich."

Maybe you would be if you found out how much you are forced to pay in taxes to support them
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 32):
God, I can't believe I just read that. Somebody been smoking some pretty good stuff, and it ain't cigarettes.

Runaway inflation is bad, controlled inflation is not. There is nothing in the real world to back up your argument.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
Charles....some people not only don't understand how an economy works, but they feel good when they simply act contrarian toward whomever it is with whom they disagree the most....they think.

Go ahead, lecture me on how the economy works. Debate my comments above, please.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
An expanding economy is good for all of us, not just a few.

That depends entirely on what sectors are expanding. When wages are NOT expanding but prices are, that means the only people who are benefiting are those that have enough income to use their money as loans.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 37):
There are plenty of liberals who want simply to make things more secure, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there are enough that are convinced of the merits of socialism or Star Trek that they believe firmly in the taking from the "haves" to redistribute to the "have-nots".

You only need to look at the biggest economic boom in history to show redistribution works better than anything else. A time when anybody could get interest rate controlled loans, cheaper priced houses, expanded government spending on essential services, expanded government spending on sectors that created real jobs (because the government is the biggest employer, hands down, both indirectly and directly) and when taxes were lower on the low and middle class and higher on the super rich.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):
Please enlighten all of us as to how the Bush family fortune was gained any less ethically than say... The Kennedy family fortune.

I'd say making money off of selling illegal alcohol is a more moral way to make a living than making money selling goods and services to the most evil regime in history (the Nazis)

Reality = 1,034,309
The right wing = 0
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 42):
Maybe you would be if you found out how much you are forced to pay in taxes to support them

I know precisely what I pay in taxes. How am I supporting the rich (other than contributing to the same pool of social/community services?)

Quoting B744F (Reply 42):
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 26):
You are so right. For about 5 years I tutored an illiterate man in his 40s, from the "ghetto." (We met each week at a local library.)



Quoting B744F (Reply 42):
While what you did was great, you act like these opportunities were available to anybody and everybody who wanted them.

I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Why are you so angry? Maybe if you are so frustrated you should channel that energy into something more productive than bitching on an online forum about how everyone is evil and cheating the poor.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 44):
I know precisely what I pay in taxes. How am I supporting the rich (other than contributing to the same pool of social/community services?)

Because the tax burdon has been shifted onto you, from them, since the 1960s

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 44):
I'm not sure what you are referring to.

You give an example of teaching an illiterate person how to read, and I am saying how the service you gave him is not available to everyone, thus another reason why it's hard to move up from the life in the ghetto
 
dl021
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:29 am

All the crap about Kennedy and Bush family fortunes is a distraction from this thread. Start that elsewhere.

b744f-Reality = 1,034,309
The right wing = 0


What do you know about reality?

b744f-Go ahead, lecture me on how the economy works. Debate my comments above, please.

I did, later in that same post. Moron.

b744fYou only need to look at the biggest economic boom in history to show redistribution works better than anything else.

What are you talking about? When did forcible redistribution of the wealth ever do anything other than end up causing further economic malaise by de-incentivizing investment?

Taxes are already paid almost entirely by the rich and middle class, while the poor in this country pays virtually no taxes past sales taxes.

Quoting B744F (Reply 42):
While what you did was great, you act like these opportunities were available to anybody and everybody who wanted them.


767loverI'm not sure what you are referring to.
That makes two of you....make that three of us.... plus everyone else who read that and is minus some brain cells for having done so.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
All the crap about Kennedy and Bush family fortunes is a distraction from this thread. Start that elsewhere.

I never started anything, I was responding to a post about that topic.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
What do you know about reality?

Obviously much more information than you

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
I did, later in that same post. Moron.

picking and choosing 1 or 2 sentences out of an entire argument doesn't count

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
What are you talking about? When did forcible redistribution of the wealth ever do anything other than end up causing further economic malaise by de-incentivizing investment?

You obviously don't understand history nor the effects of the New Deal nor the policies after WWII. Don't argue about a topic you haven't a clue about.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
Taxes are already paid almost entirely by the rich and middle class, while the poor in this country pays virtually no taxes past sales taxes.

Wrong. Taxes are paid by the middle class, with the poor drowning in payroll taxes that the wealthy get out of, yet still collect.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
That makes two of you....make that three of us.... plus everyone else who read that and is minus some brain cells for having done so.

If you say so, it's quite clear to people who have even a small ounce of common sense, "moron"
 
dl021
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:14 am

You obviously don't understand history nor the effects of the New Deal nor the policies after WWII. Don't argue about a topic you haven't a clue about.

You actually think that the New Deal was the catalyst for an economic boom?

There are plenty of people who feel that it actually did nothing more than serve as a bandaid while we bided time until the manufacturing rebound hit because of the runup to WWII and then into the war.

The poor don't pay taxes, and what is collected, by decree of the same man who you laud for the New Deal, is returned to them with their refund. Many actually receive money that they never earned in the form of the earned income tax credit.

Your personal belief that taxes are not paid by the wealthy is pretty much fantasy. The top 1% of all earners pay most of the taxes in this country, income/capital gains/sales/luxury etc. The employers also pay half the social security taxes for their employees, regardless whether the workers actually owe any real income taxes.

As far as the post WWII period, well, I guess you can say whatever you want, but the late 40's were not the greatest period of economic prosperity in history. We were suffering from the post world war economy and had problems that were mostly solved by time and conversion from tanks to automobiles and bombsights to refrigerators.

As far as whether you are out there where people can see the same things you can, dude.....why don't we repost some of your more infamous rants. Such as how US soldiers never do anything other than fight for corporate interests, and are not smart enough to know better. Or how socialism is a cure for all the worlds ills.

Why don't you specifically address the issue of the current US economy. In what way do you think it's broken and why don't you agree that the growth in the economy is good. This thread has gotten off track a little, and I'd like to refocus. You may have stated it previously, but take a second and rethink so you state exactly what you mean.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
Posts: 15214
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RE: NYTimes: US Economy-good Times To Continue

Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 43):
You only need to look at the biggest economic boom in history to show redistribution works better than anything else.

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