PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:36 am

This issue,without doubt,will be one vocal strong opinion.

The ACLU:Witch hunters or crusaders?
Removing any reference to God from government public places.


My opinion:Take away the religious factor,God is a proven
historical figure and is acknowledge by the majority as such.
Therefore,I believe it is justified to call the ACLU for what they are.
An organized leftwing extremist group out on witch hunt.

What's your opinion?
Thanks.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Psa53 (Thread starter):
What's your opinion?

That your classification of ACLU is bs and that the idea of "removing any reference to God from government public places" is the same.

No God has ever been proven to exist, unless of course you quote some other proof that people just have to "believe in". Since separation of Church and State is a mighty good idea (as long as you have some sort of ethical guideline) and you have to demand $1,000 to get $1, I can't see how they're extremists.

Edit: darn quotation marks

[Edited 2005-08-02 22:45:24]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Psa53 (Thread starter):
God is a proven
historical figure and is acknowledge by the majority as such.

 rotfl   rotfl 

Proven by whom? And acknowledged by which majority?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:57 am

They're nothing more than attention whores. They support whoever will get their name in the media. One week, they'll support a group trying to stop the KKK from marching in their neighborhood; the next, they'll be supporting the KKK in trying to get them a permit to march in a town. The ACLU likes having their name in the news, so they'll do what it takes to keep it there. It's good that they fight for people's rights, unfortunately, they also are hypocrites while doing so.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:00 am

The ACLU will fight for the disadvantaged, they have represented KKK members in their right (unfortunately) to hold public meetings, etc. Without them, your liberties will be taken away faster than you can say Patriot Act 2
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15697
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:01 am

In a society of checks and balances, a group such as the ACLU is needed. We all benefit from it, even though they can thrill or appall you depending on their issue du jour.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):

Proven by whom? And acknowledged by which majority?

Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?Or,"Do you promise to tell the whole truth,nothing but the
truth,so help you God,by our courts.I would say that's historical acknowledgement by the masses.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3):
unfortunately, they also are hypocrites while doing so.

Why are they hypocrites just because they have an unusual point of view? AFAIK, ACLU works/"fights" for every American's civil liberties as opposed to being leftwing/rightwing supporters. I like that one, goes nice with that old saying "I may not like what you have to say, but I will give my life in the fight for your right to say it."
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 4):
Without them, your liberties will be taken away faster than you can say Patriot Act 2

That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.
 
SRQCrosscheck
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:08 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:10 am

Congress shall not repect and establishment of religion , or prohibit the free expression thereof.

It seems to me that the Founding Fathers were very clear about not establishing a theocracy. Many Anabaptists (Christians) were the first to argue for a separation between church and state after Calvin's experiment in Switzerland.

Note that Lincoln, who used Biblical phrases in his 2nd inaugural address, was unaffiliated with any religion!

The ACLU preserves the legacy of a secular government, while also protecting religious speech outside the government.

Excerpt:
"Throughout much of American history, the religion of past American presidents has been the subject of contentious debate. Some devout Americans have been disinclined to believe that there may have been agnostic or even non-Christian presidents, especially amongst the Founding Fathers of the United States. As a result, apocryphal stories of a religious nature have appeared over the years about particularly beloved presidents such as Washington and Lincoln. On the other hand, secular-minded Americans have sometimes downplayed the prominence that religion played in the private and political lives of the Founding Fathers." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...residential_religious_affiliations

Quoting Slider (Reply 8):
That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.

Says who? Do you you even know what liberty means?

[Edited 2005-08-02 23:13:22]
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 8):
That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.

I don't understand this comment, they are fighting for the minority whos rights are being trampled on by the majority.

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?

Why do the masses have to protest it?

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Or,"Do you promise to tell the whole truth,nothing but the
truth,so help you God,by our courts.

Actually you don't have to swear on the Bible.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
I don't understand this comment, they are fighting for the minority whos rights are being trampled on by the majority.

Actually, there is no part of this knee-jerk reply to be understood. Maybe there would be if Slider backed his claim up.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
I don't understand this comment, they are fighting for the minority whos rights are being trampled on by the majority.

But in reverse,the majority feel the same way."Under God" for example.

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?

Why do the masses have to protest it?

The point is.If God is a problem by the masses,why wasn't there a vote
to challenge the historical value or take out those words.

Thought:This is a great topic.I wish the media would open up and
ask the same question,ACLU. Witch hunter or Crusaders?
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:43 am

As a PROUD card carrying member of the ACLU, I want to offer a compliment; at least they are consistent.

Can your organization say that?

Although some battles they chose to fight and some they represent sicken me; I am pompous about them and offer my support.

 Wink
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 13):
As a PROUD card carrying member of the ACLU

As to what media shows us,the ACLU seems to be on the attack to
remove God from government property and references,and goes out of it's way
to do so,and might be in control of atheists.
A lot of people have this idea of what the ACLU is as by what the media protrays.Is some of this true, not true?Is there a image problem?

[Edited 2005-08-03 00:23:20]
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:09 am

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 12):
why wasn't there a vote
to challenge the historical value or take out those words.

Because a vote means the majority wins and is able to trample on the rights of the minority
 
texan
Posts: 4063
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:14 am

The ACLU helps us fight Big Brother whenever government decides that we need less rights. They fight to allow us to continue to be able to express our ideas freely and not have our property illegally searched or seized, etc.

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?Or,"Do you promise to tell the whole truth,nothing but the
truth,so help you God,by our courts.I would say that's historical acknowledgement by the masses.

Historical acknowledgment by the masses? It is the government attempting to dictate to us what we are to believe. Up until the 1950s, we never had "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. "In God We Trust" was not put on money until 1957. What of the millions of Americans who do not believe in God or who believe in a different God than the one invoked on money and in court? Isn't it heretical to have "In God We Trust" on our money, which is an idea that all capitalist countries worship instead of God? Why do we not hear cries of outrage from people over the worship of this false idol?

Anyway, the ACLU fights for all Americans to keep the rights we have and attempt to expand our freedoms. I do not always agree with them, in fact I frequently think they are pursuing idiotic endeavors, however I respect them for consistently helping us fight for our rights.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:16 am

And if you put Slavery and Equal rights up for a vote they most surely would have failed to win a majority. Thankfully we have groups like the ACLU to fight for everyone who refuses to buy into the mob mentality
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:06 am

The ACLU has gone way overboard on many issues . . . . IMO . . .

I won't classify them as "Witch Hunters" . . .

I won't classify them as Crusaders . . .

In my opinion, they often have misplaced loyaties as far as the cases the take one. I'm all for fighting for the little guy when Big Brother steps on someone but I believe the ACLU has lost track of it's roots . . . they are dangerous . . . they are misguided . . . they are Schiester Lawyers in other words . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
has lost track of it's roots . . . they are dangerous . . . they are misguided

Dangerous? that's a very interesting choice of words considering the alternative of no ACLU, which is far more dangerous

[Edited 2005-08-03 02:21:33]
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:20 am

I realize my choice of words . . . I also realize A-Net's quote function hosed your post  biggrin .

Dangerous . . . when they begin to evolve out of their niche of protecting the little guy . . .

I agree the ACLU is warranted . . . but they've lost focus . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:22 am

Yes the quote system is fantastic I've learned. But how are they evolving to not protect the little guy?
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:27 am

I'll make you a deal, you answer my question on Intel in the other thread, and I'll make an answer to your question here . . . you first . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
you first . . .

you're it
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:50 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
you first . . .

you're it

 rotfl 

Let's start with :
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=18822&c=282

That'll be good. It's a good bet 80 year old grannies aren't blowing up Transit Trains . . . . it was a good bet 3 year old babies didn't fly jetliners into the WTC.

As I said, they are there to protect the little guy, and for that, they are commended.

Other cases that come to mind, the Asshole in California (?) that wants Under God removed from the Pledge of Allegience. Screw that asshole, just don't say it.

There comes a point when we are too gawddamned policitically correct and we'll all live int he same house, drive the same car, have the same names for our rugrats because some poor fucker will be offended . . . Screw 'Em. Be offended . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:59 am

But they are protecting the little guy, whether you agree with those cases or not. It is obvious from the Oklahoma City bombing that you can't just look at muslims when trying to find terrorists.

And removing Under God? Nothing wrong with that, it was never in there to begin with  Smile
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:08 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 25):
It is obvious from the Oklahoma City bombing that you can't just look at muslims when trying to find terrorists.

Agree completely . . . however, recent events have shown that it isn't the Southern Baptist or Presbyterian that is blowing shit up and flying planes into buildings . . . .

I've spoken about profiling before here in several threads. All too often people equate profiling with racism . . . it is bullshit . . .

There are certain parts of Anchorage that I know, if I'm on a drug case, I look for a certain type of person . . . if I were on the Southwest Border checking for illegal immigration, I'd look for a certain type of person. If I were the TSA, I'd leave the 3 year olds alone, and the 88 year old granny too . . . I'd concentrate on other types of people.

Screw Random searches . . . there's a process, it works, use it.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
sccutler
Posts: 5603
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:14 am

I'm no great fan of the ACLU, but you know, it's a funny thing: they're a bunch of radical nut jobs until you need 'em, and then, they may be the only thing that stands between you and legal oblivion.

As mentioned above, checks and balances can be a good thing. ACLU helps to provide 'em.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
And if you put Slavery and Equal rights up for a vote they most surely would have failed to win a majority. Thankfully we have groups like the ACLU to fight for everyone who refuses to buy into the mob mentality

The ACLU didn't end slavery, the Civil War did.

Womens right to vote also wasn't enacted by the ACLU.

The Constitution preserves our freedoms, certainly not the ACLU, IMO.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 28):
The ACLU didn't end slavery, the Civil War did.

Womens right to vote also wasn't enacted by the ACLU.

The Constitution preserves our freedoms, certainly not the ACLU, IMO.

You are taking this out of context. I just said if you put up to vote those examples the majority would never have supported the correct decision

The Constitution does, but its interpretation has alawys been up for debate, and abuses of it are always a possibility (the patriot act)

[Edited 2005-08-03 03:27:40]
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:30 am

I was shocked when I heard my grandmother admitted
she was atheist.She never admitted that because
my step-grandfather(RIP) always went church.It was a rude awakening.
So,I guess it boils down to the numbers game as Texan commented.

Quoting Texan (Reply 16):
millions of Americans who do not believe in God

Then how many millions are atheists to justify the campaign
to remove all mention of God by the ACLU?

1% of the populous US?
5% ?
20% ?
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:32 am

It doesn't matter the number, God has no place in a country who claims religious freedom and free thought. The numbers are not important, because, the Constituion was supposed to be created to protect the minority from the majority. Mob rule is blind and ignorant.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting ACLU (Thread starter):
The ACLU is our nation's guardian of liberty.



Quoting Psa53 (Reply 14):
Is some of this true, not true?

There are many myths about the ACLU. A few of them:

MYTH: The ACLU wants to remove crosses from federal cemeteries.

FACT:   

MYTH: The ACLU objects to federal employees bowing their heads.

FACT:   

MYTH: The ACLU supports child prostitution.

FACT:   

MYTH: The ACLU hates religion.

FACT: They are an advocate of religious freedom.

Quoting B744F (Reply 31):
God has no place in a country

God has many places in this Country. Just not in Government.  

[Edited 2005-08-03 05:12:01]
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 8):
That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.

Oh isn't that just a priceless gem. Care to back that one up?

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 12):
This is a great topic.I wish the media would open up and
ask the same question,ACLU. Witch hunter or Crusaders?

You are trying to ask for even debate when you are calling them either "witch hunters" or "crusaders"? How can you expect logical debate when looking at it from two extremes?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
they are dangerous . . .

I fail to see how ACLU is dangerous. Dangerous to whom? You and me? The American citizen?
NO URLS in signature
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
I fail to see how ACLU is dangerous. Dangerous to whom? You and me? The American citizen?

Yes to all of the above . . .

Read the rest of my posts there TBar . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:20 pm

Sorry, I fail to see in your posts where you explain how the ACLU is dangerous. How are they "dangerous"? In what way are they "dangerous" to you and me?
NO URLS in signature
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
You are trying to ask for even debate when you are calling them either "witch hunters" or "crusaders"? How can you expect logical debate when looking at it from two extremes?

Right.I guess I was looking it from a media perspective that deals
in the two extremes,unfortunately.

Quoting B744F (Reply 31):
numbers are not important, because, the Constituion was supposed to be created to protect the minority from the majority.

I disagree in asking what the numbers are, as people have the right to know
how the ACLU reaches a decision.And how the ACLU operates as organization.
I agree, partially, with your constitution answer,but that beautiful document
is made for all peoples,minority or majority.Granted ,there are short comings
in it's execution,from both sides.

[Edited 2005-08-03 06:59:46]
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:39 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 32):
God has many places in this Country. Just not in Government.

you're right I should have stated it that way.
 
SRQCrosscheck
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:08 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
All too often people equate profiling with racism . . . it is bullshit . . .

discrimination , often aka racism : 1 b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently 3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment

I don't believe you'd hold this opinion that if you were African-American and subjected to an unreasonable search for drugs in your car when you were pulled over for speeding (being black isn't probable cause for drug possession), or were a law-abidding, Arab U.S. Citizen.
In the United States, our own individual race has always dictated what we consider is racist. Some whites still don't seem to care that in many all-white neighborhoods, it's understood that blacks just can't buy in, for fear that neighbors will be upset, or that the neighborhood will be less desirable, or that it will start "white flight." What does this have to do with profiling in airports? My point is that indifference to racism has been perpetuated for as long as the 13 colonies have been around.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 28):
The ACLU didn't end slavery, the Civil War did.

Womens right to vote also wasn't enacted by the ACLU.

The Constitution preserves our freedoms, certainly not the ACLU, IMO.

Abigail Adams wrote to her husband John Adams after the Constitutional Convention that she thought it was unjust women weren't given suffrage. Only 130 years later were women given the right to vote (1920). During that time, countless women's groups fought for women's suffrage. These groups even grew out of women's groups fighting for temperance of alcohol-drinking. Slavery would never have been ended, nor the Civil War ever fought, had abolitionists been silent or not formed the Republican Party. The Supreme Court would not have ruled against segregation had it not been for the NAACP. And the Federal Government (with Kennedy having dragged his feet on Civil Rights before his assassination) would never have given blacks equal rights during the 60s had it not been for organizations like Dr. Martin Luther King's SCLC, which awakened the public conscience. So, in essence, since the U.S. Gov't has an atrocious record of preserving and granting Civil Rights, and since activism has brought all of the progess for racial and sexual equality, activism for our liberties by the ACLU is absolutely necessary.

[Edited 2005-08-03 08:50:22]
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
Actually, there is no part of this knee-jerk reply to be understood. Maybe there would be if Slider backed his claim up.

** It was the ACLU who trained hundreds of blockers to harass the voters as they attempted to sign petitions in Bay Windows, Mass. This was an illegal violation of voting rights under the U.S. Constitution. According to the U.S. Supreme Court, no campaigning can be done anywhere near where people are exercising their voting rights. But the ACLU put blockers in-your-face as voters were in the act of signing.

** Roger Baldwin, founder and guiding light of the ACLU for over 30 years, had a record of over 100 communist-front affiliations.

** Dr. Harry Ward, first chairman of the ACLU had documented ties with over 200 Communist front affiliations and citations.

** The ACLU argues that child pornography is constitutionally protected free speech.

** NAMBLA. Nuf said.

** The ACLU stands against profiling in the fight against terrorism.

** ACLU sued Boyd County, KY school district to FORCE students to watch sexual orientation tolerance video. Originally optional, in which most students opted out. I guess freedom of choice is only appropriate when it's selective choices they want to enforce huh?

** ACLU sued Louisiana to pull down a website advocating abstinence.

Sorry, but I won't support an organization that won't stand up for Constitutional liberties on a consistent basis and in a constructionist viewpoint. The ACLU has consistently proven itself to be anti-Christian, anti-family, pro-deviancy, twisting the First Amendment into ways that aren't Constitutional nor even appropriate.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. I'll stand with traditional American values, the Boy Scouts, the Ten Commandments and school prayer.

Enjoy your NAMBLA meeting.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting SRQCrosscheck (Reply 38):
So, in essence, since the U.S. Gov't has an atrocious record of preserving and granting Civil Rights, and since activism has brought all of the progess for racial and sexual equality, activism for our liberties by the ACLU is absolutely necessary.

The problem is I no longer see the ACLU being relevant in our society if only because of the many positions they take which, IMO, are contrary to our liberties, freedom and well being. The ACLU, IMO, take causes which tend to violate and diminish our quality of life.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 40):
The problem is I no longer see the ACLU being relevant in our society if only because of the many positions they take which, IMO, are contrary to our liberties, freedom and well being.

Ridiculous. The ACLU is the only option poor people can turn to, it is the only opinion people can turn to who has a strong voice and will support just about anyone. Without the ACLU the country will have nothing to stop it from turning into a complete Plutocracy

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 40):
The ACLU, IMO, take causes which tend to violate and diminish our quality of life.

I'm glad you think you can speak for the entire population and decide what people value for quality of life.

[Edited 2005-08-04 01:53:52]
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
Without the ACLU the country will have nothing to stop it from turning into a complete Plutocracy

That would actually be the purpose of our Constitution. If a despot took over the US and discarded our Constitution, what power would the ACLU have to stop it? None. The ACLU is powerless in itself. Only because of the Constitution does the ACLU wield any influence.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:04 am

The ACLU is not powerless as long as the court of law decides what is lawful. There needs to be a counter to corporate lawyers just like there needs to be Unions to counter powerful corporations
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:11 am

Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 43):
The ACLU is not powerless as long as the court of law decides what is lawful. There needs to be a counter to corporate lawyers just like there needs to be Unions to counter powerful corporations

But the courts are governed by the Constitution. The ACLU doesn't supersede the Constitution.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:14 am

Here's a Bio on Roger Baldwin.

http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/baldwin.html

Notice the author for reference.

Another point of view-

http://plsurvey.com/index.php?/archi...47-ACLU-Founder-Roger-Baldwin.html

[Edited 2005-08-04 02:35:06]
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
SRQCrosscheck
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:08 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 39):
** Roger Baldwin, founder and guiding light of the ACLU for over 30 years, had a record of over 100 communist-front affiliations.

Point? Free political speech is protected by the first amendment. This isn't the 1920s or 50s, we don't have HUAAC anymore (oh wait, nevermind, Patriot Act...), lock people up for being commies, or find them under every bed anymore.

Quoting Slider (Reply 39):

** ACLU sued Boyd County, KY school district to FORCE students to watch sexual orientation tolerance video. Originally optional, in which most students opted out. I guess freedom of choice is only appropriate when it's selective choices they want to enforce huh?

Or maybe they were protecting the rights of LGBT people to due process and equal protection.

Quoting Slider (Reply 39):
The ACLU has consistently proven itself to be anti-Christian, anti-family, pro-deviancy, twisting the First Amendment into ways that aren't Constitutional nor even appropriate.

No, neutral on Christianity, like on all other belief systems. How are they anti-family?

And I would say putting up monuments to the 10 commandments is twisting the First Amendment in a way that's unconstitutional.

In any case, you may not agree with the ACLU, but they exist to provide legal aid to people who are entitled to such in our legal system.

Quoting Slider (Reply 39):
Enjoy your NAMBLA meeting.

Only if you enjoy your Assault Rifle Convention.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 40):
The ACLU, IMO, take causes which tend to violate and diminish our quality of life.

Again, they exist to provide legal aid to people who are entitled to such in our legal system.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 42):
That would actually be the purpose of our Constitution. If a despot took over the US and discarded our Constitution, what power would the ACLU have to stop it? None. The ACLU is powerless in itself. Only because of the Constitution does the ACLU wield any influence.

A Plutocracy doesn't have anything to due to despotism. Plutocracy is when the wealthy rule.

And considering that there are some historians who believe that the Constitution was written to preserve a plutocracy, the Constitution may or may not be the best tool to prevent a plutocracy. I'm not saying that I believe the Constitution was established by a plutocracy to serve plutocrats, but I could see how it could be manipulated to serve plutocrats.
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:03 pm

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 28):
The ACLU didn't end slavery, the Civil War did.

Another student of simplified American History, eh? In all actuality, the Civil War did not end the institution of slavery. Care to consider that there were actually slave states that remained in the Union and continued to allow the possession and sale of slaves until after the war? While Lincoln may have personally dispised the slave trade, it is without doubt that he had little political inclination to do anything to affect the institution of slavery. The Civil War was about many issues, of which slavery was only one.

Lincoln's greater concern was to preserve the Union. Slavery was not abolished in the United States until 1866 with the passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Emancipation Proclaimation, as nice as it might sound had no legal basis or authority. All it did was declare the slaves in the areas in rebellion as of January 1, 1863 to be free. It was totally ineffective in that it did not coerce the states in rebellion to lay down their arms and did not free anyone, since the areas in rebellion did not recognize Lincoln as their lawfully elected leader. Secondly, Lincoln had no way to enforce his proclaimation in those areas.

The one action that was most effective in establishing blacks in areas captured by the United States Military as free persons was taken by an attorney turned United States Army General-General Benjamin F. Butler. His units having encountered runaway slaves who had surrendered themselves to his soliders, he determined that under the Articles of War they were legally contraband and could not be forcibly returned to their owners (bear in mind that slavery was still legal in the United States at that time).

As for the ability and willingness of our judicial and legislative bodies to protect the rights of the minority on their own iniative, don't count on it. It all depends on the makeup of those bodies at the time the law or Constitution is interpreted and how much they really know about the attitudes of the population. At the time of Plessy vs. Ferguson (1893), the United States Supreme Court was made up almost exclusively of Ivy League educated New Englanders who had little realization of the effect that their ruling would have on the black citizens. Only one justice knew what that effect would be. That justice was Associate Justice John Marshal Harlan-a southern Republican from a wealthy Kentucky family that had owned a plantation and slaves before the war. He realized that many of his fellow southerners would twist and warp the law to allow them to continue to oppress the blacks under the guise of separate but equal treatment under the law. Yet because of the views of his socially insulated associates, the ruling went 8 to 1 against Plessy with only Harlan vehemiently dissenting.

Keeping this in mind, without groups such as the ACLU or others to check the power of the majority, the Constitution can be far more dangerous in itself than any one activist group. Left unchecked, the majority can manipulate the Constitution through either nefarious or inept politicians or jurists for their own purposes.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 48):
Another student of simplified American History, eh?

The ACLU ended slavery then?
You're only as good as your last departure.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dano1977, Pihero and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos