jaysit
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Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:12 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html

What is wrong with this man? Whenever I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, he shows what an imbecile he is. Is it no wonder that we as a nation are falling behind in teaching science to our young minds when this !#$!@$@# spews such nonsense. Religion is a matter of deep personal faith, that cannot be explained by scientific rationalism, and I respect an individual's need for their religious beliefs. Why can't this man and his hordes from the flat earth society respect the tenets of scientific teaching? Why do they insist on hijacking science just in order to pursue their agenda?

Excerpts:

Bush Remarks On 'Intelligent Design' Theory Fuel Debate

By Peter Baker and Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 3, 2005; Page A01

President Bush invigorated proponents of teaching alternatives to evolution in public schools with remarks saying that schoolchildren should be taught about "intelligent design," a view of creation that challenges established scientific thinking and promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.

Although he said that curriculum decisions should be made by school districts rather than the federal government, Bush told Texas newspaper reporters in a group interview at the White House on Monday that he believes that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:15 pm

That's a basic religious-right mantra: put "Intelligent design" right next to Evolution in classrooms, public or private.

I don't believe in it, but the far right does-indeed, they'd rather not teach evolution at all. I guess they don't believe in science.  Smile

Again, what you personally believe is one thing-but for Bush and the righties to try and shove creationism down the throats of a society that, for many, don't believe in it, is bollocks. "Intelligent Design" isn't science-it's personal religious beliefs, and has no place in public school classrooms.

And if Bush believes in "Intelligent Design", how does he account for himself?  Big grin
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dl021
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:28 pm

Do you guys think that evolution can not possibly be the product of the Creators thinking? Is it not the most logical means to develop the different species present here in our reality?  scratchchin  hmmm....


To answer the question posed in the opener.....this is a go nowhere bow to the religious right, that I find somewhat distasteful, but there is nothing to say that it isn't correct either.

Anything we believe about what sparked off life is based on faith in something....whether its science or religion. We weren't there, and the means of exploring that far back are either theoretical models or presumptions based on observation and deduction then extrapolation to account for the billions of years we can't possibly explore with current tech.

Last thing......tell me which president has not occasionally done something that was an obvious bone tosser to the more far reaching, shall we say, branches of their base?
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Falcon84
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:30 pm

Ian, Evolution is a scientific theory. Creationism is more a religious than scientific theory. They're apples and oranges. One should be taught in church, one in school. I don't want right-wing, Christion theology taught in public schools, period. 'Nuff said. Keep that stuff out of schools.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cornish
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:31 pm

what scares me is that Dubya thinks he's an expert on education.

Let's face it, he's hardly a role model to get kids to study. You can see your average American kid thinking, if I don't study, get poor grades, grow up thick as shit, I could become President one day too  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
jaysit
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Last thing......tell me which president has not occasionally done something that was an obvious bone tosser to the more far reaching, shall we say, branches of their base?

But none has been quite as extreme as this one. Or, perhaps, quite as shameless. Or stupid.

Even Reagan, who professed his faith in public, never EVER waded into this muck.

Intelligent design isn't science. Its a belief system. Until there is evidence to the contrary, lets not muddy the waters. If intelligent design must be taught, teach it as part of Sunday school.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 4):
expert on education

Well he is married to a teacher right??? So I guess that means I could marry an astronaut and be qualified to fly the Space Shuttle right?!?!?!?!

This administration can't end fast enough.. I can't wait till the grand jusry comes back with a BOATLOAD of indictments. Not that a boatload will occur, but I can wish it'd be more then the equilivent of a Martha Stuart slap on the hand for perjury.
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mrniji
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:25 am

Nothing new.. that man proves in public in a daily manner what big idiot he is...
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halls120
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
Intelligent design isn't science. Its a belief system. Until there is evidence to the contrary, lets not muddy the waters. If intelligent design must be taught, teach it as part of Sunday school.

I agree with the above completely. That said, calling people who believe in the concept of intelligent design "imbecile," "dunce," or "whore" is unwarranted, and detracts from the strength of your argument.

I once carpooled with a person who was a devout believer in intelligent design. We had many, many debates on the issue, and the rest of us couldn't convince him of the error of his ways. He had a B.S. and Master's degree in naval architecture, so I could hardly say that he wasn't an intelligent individual - just misguided.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD-90
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:02 am

He's both.

Plus an evil warmongerer.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:19 am

Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

None of the above.

But thanks for being so open-minded and providing many choices.  sarcastic 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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FlyingTexan
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
And if Bush believes in "Intelligent Design", how does he account for himself?

 rotfl 

Quoting Cornish (Reply 4):
You can see your average American kid thinking, if I don't study, get poor grades, grow up thick as shit, I could become President one day too

That logic was oft used against his predecessor.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 6):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 4):
expert on education

Well he is married to a teacher right???

Public school teacher; later a librarian. Closest he ever got to books.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 4):
f I don't study, get poor grades, grow up thick as shit, I could become President one day too

Or John Kerry  Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
cairo
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:10 am

Bush doesn't care about creating a 'culture of life' or about whether evolution is taught in schools. He is largely about catering to people who vote on single issues, like abortion or gay marriage or whatever, although he personally couldn't care less.

Cairo
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 4):
if I don't study, get poor grades, grow up thick as shit, I could become President one day too

Well, if you weren't born in the US, or born to US parents than you can't. Sorry Cornish.
Made from jets!
 
halls120
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 13):
Bush doesn't care about creating a 'culture of life' or about whether evolution is taught in schools. He is largely about catering to people who vote on single issues, like abortion or gay marriage or whatever, although he personally couldn't care less

Oh, so I guess you've spent a lot of close personal time with Mr. Bush, right? Or perhaps you are his undisclosed biographer?

I get it - you are Karl Rove, right?!?!?!?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cairo
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Oh, so I guess you've spent a lot of close personal time with Mr. Bush, right? Or perhaps you are his undisclosed biographer?

I get it - you are Karl Rove, right?!?!?!?

I went to UT while he was governor and worked at the capitol. Several of my college friends are lowish level staffers in the administration, including the esteemed press secretary. None of these issues are important to him and he was never passionate about them in related legislation in Texas. He became concerned about them when it was determined certain people vote for a president based on single issues.

Cairo
 
searpqx
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:42 am

I've come to believe that President Bush is far smarter than many of us give him credit for, and that in itself terrifies me. In public he portray's the simple folksy man, overly controlled by his handlers. By doing this all problems devolve to his staff, leaving him relatively unharmed.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
None of these issues are important to him and he was never passionate about them in related legislation in Texas. He became concerned about them when it was determined certain people vote for a president based on single issues.

This I believe is the true face of President Bush - a master manipulator. I honestly don't know what his goals are, where he is trying to get to. But he has become adept at manipulating the public and our government, and I really worry about what he's capable of in the next three years.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
mdsh00
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:16 am

For the life of me, I can't understand how Evolution can be taught along with Creationism in a Public school. A huge misconception among creationists (and evolution proponents who didn't do their homework) is that evolution DOES NOT provide an answer to the creation of life. "Origin of Species" doesn't mean Origin of Life. Nor does it say that humans evolved from monkeys. Evolution DOES show scientific evidence of species adapting to their enviornment by Genetic Drift and Natural Selection.

I am open to a theory that the Creator mixed in the ingredients and watched as life evolved, but that is PERSONAL interpretation and doesn't belong in a school. What we see here is more and more of the arrogant religious right thinking that they have all of the right answers.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
B744F
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 17):
This I believe is the true face of President Bush - a master manipulator. I honestly don't know what his goals are, where he is trying to get to. But he has become adept at manipulating the public and our government, and I really worry about what he's capable of in the next three years.

wrong, he is as clueless as Reagan who just reads what script he is handed and acts like your buddy next door to attrack people to your "easy going" personality. The master manipulators are Cheney, Rove, et al
 
searpqx
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
wrong, he is as clueless as Reagan who just reads what script he is handed and acts like your buddy next door to attrack people to your "easy going" personality. The master manipulators are Cheney, Rove, et al

As usual I disagree with you, but since it's all opinion, it doesn't really matter what either of us think.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
B744F
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 20):
As usual I disagree with you, but since it's all opinion, it doesn't really matter what either of us think.

Good for you. Look at the man speak and you will understand he doesn't have the brain capacity to really know the topics he is talking about. He doesn't set the record for least amount of press conferences and non-scripted conferences just because he feels like it...
 
flybyguy
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Ian, Evolution is a scientific theory. Creationism is more a religious than scientific theory. They're apples and oranges. One should be taught in church, one in school. I don't want right-wing, Christion theology taught in public schools, period. 'Nuff said. Keep that stuff out of schools.

I am a believer in education, a tradition that was instilled in me by my parents. I feel that education should be a experience of broad views, cultures and beliefs. Why are all of the atheists of this country so consumed with barring any reference of religion from modern life while extolling the value of human intelligence? I'll tell you this if they really thought of the human mind as highly as they profess they would allow children to get a FULL education and let them through their years of studies formulate their own conclusions. What many propose in this thread is akin to educational censorship. I guarantee you that all those who lambast religion are ardent supporters of Sex ED in their government schools.

Well America has always valued a cheap f**k over morality and intellectual advancement.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
B744F
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:03 am

Children should be taught everything, not just one or the other, it's as simple as that.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 22):
What many propose in this thread is akin to educational censorship. I guarantee you that all those who lambast religion are ardent supporters of Sex ED in their government schools

Children can learn about the Creation arguement, but is it so bad to let them learn it in Sunday School? Making children learn about only the Christian point of view speaks more than just letting kids "learn both sides of the arguement."
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
flybyguy
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 24):
Making children learn about only the Christian point of view speaks more than just letting kids "learn both sides of the arguement."

I said a FULL education... NO WHERE did I say that the Christian point of view is the only point of view. I trust that our education system can produce intelligent thinkers who can judge for themselves what's best for them once they hear both points of view. By teaching Creation or Christian history only in Sunday school is just denying the other side to be heard. I would have to say that my parents wouldn't like their tax dollars being spent on the exclusive promotion of atheism by public schools, whether my brother or I attended or not. All I ask is that atheists get off their high horse and give education the respect and diversity it deserves.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
acts like your buddy next door to attrack people to your "easy going" personality.

Yea, he acts like the common man next door, truth is – W is an elitist born with a silver spoon into aristocracy.

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
The master manipulators are Cheney, Rove, et al

And when the big Dick kicks the bucket (I don’t know how many heart attacks he has gone thru), we’ll have Scooter and Rove.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
halls120
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 am

Quote:
B744F - He doesn't set the record for least amount of press conferences and non-scripted conferences just because he feels like it...

It could also be the fact that he has shown that he doesn't need to hold those press conferences where he is faced with an invariably hostile press. Since he didn't hold many press conferences during his first term, but was reelected, what makes you think there is any pressure on him to hold press conferences during this term?

While I don't agree with his stance on intelligent design, I continually shake my head in amazement at people like you who continue to question his intelligence. A long line of losing democratic opponents have made the same mistake....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
invariably hostile press

Planted reporters in press conferences like Jim Guckert (dba Jim Gannon) under the employ of Talon News, affiliated with Texas Republicans. Jimmy has been a member of the WH Press Corpse for two years asking favorably worded questions.

(His nighttime duties include gay male escort and running gay porno sites).

Hostile Press?

When real reporters ask W real questions, I wonder why they are so *hostile*

 spin 
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TedTAce
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):

wrong, he is as clueless as Reagan who just reads what script he is handed and acts like your buddy next door to attrack people to your "easy going" personality. The master manipulators are Cheney, Rove, et al

 old  you are so whacked.. Equating the style of W to Regan is as ignorant as saying 'all blacks steal'. You obviously never watched Regan in a debate which is amazing considering you claim to be "76-85". Either you are dumb or senile.

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
Children should be taught everything, not just one or the other, it's as simple as that.

And you got your degree in education out of what cracker jack box?
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halls120
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:02 pm

Quote:
FlyingTexan: Hostile Press?

Are you going to tell me that Helen Thomas isn't hostile? The dean of the WH press corps, who was recently quoted as saying she'd kill herself if Cheney ran for President - or words to tha effect?

Yes, the WH plants reporters that ask favorable questions. But if you are going to suggest that they outnumber those that show no hesitation at displaying their disgust for Bush, please don't waste our time.

Hell - the press was hostile to Clinton a great deal of the time. Why any president chooses to appear in that setting is a mystery.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
PSA53
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 28):

When real reporters ask W real questions, I wonder why they are so *hostile*

Yes! I wonder why,TedTAce.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:09 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 29):
considering you claim to be "76-85". Either you are dumb or senile.

Or Rsmith with a new identity  scratchchin 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TedTAce
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 31):
Yes! I wonder why,TedTAce.

You wonder because you don't have enough intelligence to figure it out for yourself.. The Springerization of America continues..  Yeah sure

[Edited 2005-08-04 05:15:41]
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mdsh00
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:37 pm

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 25):
I said a FULL education... NO WHERE did I say that the Christian point of view is the only point of view. I trust that our education system can produce intelligent thinkers who can judge for themselves what's best for them once they hear both points of view.

Sorry. It wasn't directed at you but those that propose only the Christian idea being taught. One thing I disagree with you on is that learning/teaching evolution doesn't make one Atheist. I took a lot of courses in Evolution at the University level and I am not an Atheist.

What has happened with this evolution vs. creationism argument are many uninformed people speak vocally on a subjects that require much study.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
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PA110
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:50 pm

The timing of this thread could not be better! I just finished reading Charles Krauthammer's essay in TIME magazine entitled:

Let's Have No More Monkey Trials
To teach faith as science is to undermine both


Krauthammer delivers a blistering attack on Evangelical attempts to force local school boards to teach creationism, or it's cousin in drag, "intelligent design" as science.

He concludes with the thought... Faith can and should be proclaimed from every mountaintop and city square. But it has no place in science class. To impose it on the teaching of evolution is not just to invite ridicule but to earn it

Well said!

Bush on the other hand, with his classic lack of intellectual curiosity, has the hand of the christian right stuck so far up his asshole, couldn't care less anyway.

edited for spelling ...very late at night.

[Edited 2005-08-04 07:54:28]
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TedTAce
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:00 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 35):
Bush on the other hand, with his classic lack of intellectual curiosity, has the hand of the christian right stuck so far up his asshole, couldn't care less anyway.

Beautiful point  Smile
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Barcode
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:12 pm

Do they not teach philosophy or religious education in American high schools? I came across I.D when I took A-Level Philosophy some years ago. As I recall, it was briefly touched upon during G.C.S.E religious studies. The idea of it having a place in the science classroom is frankly, bizarre. Should the idea have a scientific base, then by all means teach it - but it does not. Perhaps it should be used as an example of psuedo-science instead  Smile
 
cfalk
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:46 pm

There is a great deal of spin involved in the article quoted in the thread starter.

Quoting Jaysit (Thread starter):
"intelligent design," a view of creation that challenges established scientific thinking and promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.



Quoting Jaysit (Thread starter):
he believes that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories.

"Intelligent design" is not a competing theory to evolution. It is an addition to it - a complement.

Believers in Intelligent design (which includes the Catholic Church) believe that the world evolved over the last 4 billion years or so, that life began in the seas and eventually came onto land and that humans developed from early primates, etc. They believe in everything that pure evolutionists believe in.

Where they differ is that they believe that all these events did not "just happen". That a higher being, a Creator, set things in motion, and set off the spark that began life on Earth, and possibly (probably) elsewhere.

My understanding of Bush's comments is that he states that students should know about this concept. This is very easy to do. During the school year, the teacher would spend 5 minutes explaining that "Some people believe that all this was not an accident, and that a higher power kicked off the process of evolution." It is then up to the student to decide whether he subscribes to that theory or not. There is no question of spending months discussing Intelligent design. Once the Evolution subject is discussed, Intelligent design is a 5-minute subject.

The fact of the matter is that many people believe in Intelligent design (including me). The idea of school is to teach and inform, and where an issue is subject to some controversy, students should be exposed, however briefly, to the various beliefs, so that they can talk about it and debate the various views. They should also, for example, be exposed to the concept of Creationism - the belief that the Genesis story is literally true. Not in a judgemental way, but like "Many people believe that...". It's a 5-minute discussion.

If schools are not allowed to teach different points of view on issues where there is some controversy, and must only give one viewpoint which ignores the beliefs of maybe half the population, then the school is no longer a school, but an indoctrination center, and is little different from the Nazi book-burning parties.

Charles
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Barcode
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:11 pm

Quote:
The idea of school is to teach and inform, and where an issue is subject to some controversy, students should be exposed, however briefly, to the various beliefs, so that they can talk about it and debate the various views. They should also, for example, be exposed to the concept of Creationism - the belief that the Genesis story is literally true. Not in a judgemental way, but like "Many people believe that...". It's a 5-minute discussion.

As I understand it, the issue is not whether it should be taught - but where it is appropriate to do so. If you are going to allow I.D into a science classroom, you might as well allow in Astrology, ESP, Scientology etc. This is because the same amount of scientific empirical evidence exists for these concepts as I.D. Appealing to the fact that many believe does not mean teaching the topic in the scientific curriculum is appropriate.

By all means teach it in religious education or philosophy - there is scope to explore the topic in more detail. Students can become familiar with more complex arguments and examine different viewpoints. But to suggest it is appropriate in a science classroom undermines scientific methodology.

I was exposed to the Genesis story - in religious education where we discussed some biblical stories. I have no objection to these views - as long as some do not suggest they have the same scientific backing as evolution. They plainly don't. And since it's a faith based position, teaching it in science is wholly inappropriate.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 22):
I'll tell you this if they really thought of the human mind as highly as they profess they would allow children to get a FULL education and let them through their years of studies formulate their own conclusions

I had both points of view growing up, and I'm still athiest, so I strongly believe we should learn everything and then decide, but I think they should be kept separate, so that Public School Teachers can teach science and Religious leaders can teach Religion. A scientist can't comment on religion, just in the same way a Priest cannot talk about science. Stick with the expertise of the teacher, cos otherwise you end up with horrific biases against certain subjects and misconceptions. If a parent wants them to learn both sides then they should send them to a Catholic/Muslim/Buddhist/Jewish/(Enter your religion here) specifi school.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
cfalk
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting Barcode (Reply 39):
I was exposed to the Genesis story - in religious education where we discussed some biblical stories.

I agree that that would be the best place to put it. Unfortunately, public schools are not allowed to have such courses, thanks to the ACLU and similar groups who are trying to indoctinate children into a purely secular mindset.

As Evolution is the subject matter around which such contriversy exists, the subject of competing (or in the case of ID, complementary) theories should be taught in the same class. Again, we are not talking about "equal footing". If you spend one year discussing evolution, you can spend one hour at the end of the year discussing how people believe other things, and the scientific merits (or lack thereof) of both.

Where controversy exists, schools must be able to discuss all views with the students. Maybe not nutjob believes involving a few dozen people that Elvis created the world, but all the major belief systems that impact how the Evolution debate (and there IS debate) has impacted society. Anything less is indoctrination.

Charles
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dl021
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:30 pm

The best way to prevent views you don't like from being spread is to prevent them from being discussed during the learning process.

Why should there not be religious education in public schools? An exposure to world religions is not the same as establishing a religion, and would broaden the learning for students at a period in the same manner as philosophy courses should be doing.

The people who vigorously work to deny broad education to our young are the real bigots, as they are as bad as the people who want to teach only the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden.

There is a definite argument for each view, some more valid than others, and a few with actual scientific theory behind them. The discussion of these views and theories is a valid means of educating our young, and does not prevent the focus being on the theory of evolution as science and the religions as just those, religions.

Besides, what do you think sparked the universe to begin with? What was there before this universe? How long ago did time begin? Who were God's parents? Why are we here (Beyond Adam's brilliant answer)?

If you have the answers.....great. If you think there are no answers...you must be wrong. If you believe that everyone else is wrong....you have faith.

If you want to stifle all conversation about other theories beyond yours....you are stifling freedom of speech and preventing people from learning. Not everyone has the same opportunity to be exposed to all the different religions in our society, and a discussion (not a preaching) of the religions in school would be educational.
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halls120
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 42):
The best way to prevent views you don't like from being spread is to prevent them from being discussed during the learning process.

Why should there not be religious education in public schools? An exposure to world religions is not the same as establishing a religion, and would broaden the learning for students at a period in the same manner as philosophy courses should be doing.

Because religion is a purely personal and private matter, to be taught in church and in the home - not in the public schools.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
jaysit
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:48 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
As Evolution is the subject matter around which such contriversy exists, the subject of competing (or in the case of ID, complementary) theories should be taught in the same class. Again, we are not talking about "equal footing". If you spend one year discussing evolution, you can spend one hour at the end of the year discussing how people believe other things, and the scientific merits (or lack thereof) of both.

Most classes on evolution teach how the theory of evolution came about, and the evidence to support it - as well as the gaps that exist. There is, however, NO evidence on ID. It's a belief system. It is NOT science. Thus, it does NOT complement the theory of evolution, and does not belong in a science class.

I attended Anglo-Catholic schools as a child, and not once was evolution taught in a religion class. When I asked my teachers how the theories of evolution fit into Genesis, I was told to shush up. Even today, if you told President Bush, Rick Santorum, the Christian Ayatollahs of the American Right that evolution should be presented as an alternative in a Bible class, they'd froth and foam at the mouth. So why should science be subjected to their impositions?

However, I do agree with you that ID - or other view points - can be discussed in public schools, with the disclaimer that it is NOT science, but that individuals in their quest for spirituality through organized religion or other means wrestle with the stark harshness of evolution.

This, however, is not what the President is advocating in his attempt to kiss up to his core constituency. His lack of shame, ignorance, or political expediency should not diminish the cause of science in this country.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dl021
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:01 pm

"Quoting DL021 (Reply 42):
The best way to prevent views you don't like from being spread is to prevent them from being discussed during the learning process.

Why should there not be religious education in public schools? An exposure to world religions is not the same as establishing a religion, and would broaden the learning for students at a period in the same manner as philosophy courses should be doing.

Because religion is a purely personal and private matter, to be taught in church and in the home - not in the public schools."


I'm not suggesting we teach one as a the "way", but discuss them all as a matter of fact that they exist and are going to be encountered in life. I know the reasons that people don't want religions discussed in public schools.......they simply don't want anyone exposing their children to any other point of view/faith/philosophy even as a possibility.

It's putting on blinders.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Gary2880
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Thread starter):
Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

can i vote for both?
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
FDXmech
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:23 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 17):
I've come to believe that President Bush is far smarter than many of us give him credit for, and that in itself terrifies me. In public he portray's the simple folksy man, overly controlled by his handlers. By doing this all problems devolve to his staff, leaving him relatively unharmed.

Very good post. The multitude of Bush detractors seem to forget the tenet of not underestimating your adversary. Whether pride or prejudice causes this most basic of principles to be ignored might account for Bush's steady stream of victories over those who deem themselves superior over a folksy bumpkin.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
jaysit
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 47):
Whether pride or prejudice causes this most basic of principles to be ignored might account for Bush's steady stream of victories over those who deem themselves superior over a folksy bumpkin.

It isn't an issue of being superior or not.

GWB is an astute politician. And surrounds himself with those who are too.

He isn't a folksy bumpkin at all, but plays that role when it suits him. What dissapoints me is that he has shown himself to be an ideologue committed to winning on the slimmest of margins based on deeply dividing America even further.

As long as he has his core groups who show up en masse to support him and provide that slight margin of victory, he doesn't seem to care.

The rest of the country be damned.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Our Prez: Dunce Or Whore To The Evangelo-Right

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:38 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
Believers in Intelligent design (which includes the Catholic Church) believe that the world evolved over the last 4 billion years or so

The catholic Church also used to say the world was going to end every 100 or 1,000 years or so. After about 4-5 times of looking like idiots when the world DIDN't end they gave up on it and changed their tune to 'sometime'

Quoting DL021 (Reply 42):
Why should there not be religious education in public schools?

SOCS issues aside.. Because to do it "fairly" you'd have to have a theology class that taught the tennants of all religions. The thought of getting a comphrensive understanding of Judaism or Muslim beliefs for a lot of Catholics is more offensive then not having religion at all.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 42):
If you want to stifle all conversation about other theories beyond yours....you are stifling freedom of speech and preventing people from learning.

 redflag  If we were stopping church congregations from forming THAT would be stifling of free speech/religion
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