MaverickM11
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Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:24 pm

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4198655

"The National Assessment of Educational Progress has been periodically testing a representative sample of 9-, 13- and 17-year-olds since the early 1970s. This year's report contained two striking results. The first is that America's nine-year-olds posted their best scores in reading and maths since the tests were introduced (in 1971 in reading and 1973 in maths). The second is that the gap between white students and minorities is narrowing. The nine-year-olds who made the biggest gains of all were blacks, traditionally the most educationally deprived group in American society."

"Thirteen- and 17-year-olds may not have shown as much improvement as nine-year-olds. But that is precisely because reformers have focused their energies on the earlier grades."

E pur si muove -Galileo
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:47 pm

Looking through the data at http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/, what worries me is the performance of 17 year-olds. The news from 9 year-olds is nice, but it is the 17 year-olds who are about to enter the work force, or about to enter a career track through university. These results aren't so good.

Are there still any public schools who adhere to that stupid idea of eliminating grades etc.?

Charles

[Edited 2005-08-09 09:48:25]
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scbriml
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:39 pm

There's always different slants that can be put on any set of numbers. You could argue that over a period of 24 years (1980-2004), the results of the Age 9 group have only improved by <2% while Age 13 and Age 17 groups are totally flat.

If in 6 year's time, all three groups show a significant upturn, then you might be able to claim that George "Is our children learning" Bush has had an affect.

Lies, damned lies and statistics!
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:53 pm

Maverick, our new PR guy for George Bush on Anet.

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NWA742
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Maverick, our new PR guy for George Bush on Anet.

Ironic from you Falcon  Smile

How about:

Falcon84, a reminder that he has been, is, and will be our Michael Moore speaker for us on A.net. Always there to present one side of a coin, the one that doesn't favor Bush.



Don't get pissed at me, I'm just yackin...




-NWA742
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:23 pm

ROTFL. I'm nothing like Michael Moore, NWA742. You think Moore takes the view on Hiroshima, or Hugo Chavez that I do. I think you confuse me with
dearly departed Rsmith.  Smile

I won't get pissed at you-I'll just ridicule you, fair enough?  Big grin
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jaysit
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:16 pm

This post is right up there with something like:

Iraqi Consumption of Snickers Bars up 200% since 2003: This year 2 Snickers Bars were eaten by Iraqis, 1 greater than in 2003. Bush lovers everywhere are excited that this shows that we are winning the war against terror.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:36 pm

Well, Mav, can't swear by that in Alaska.

Our schools systems are struggling with overcrowding, underteaching and inadequate facilities. I'll be surprised if our teachers aren't on strike by this time next week - at least in ANC.

I watched my daughter in the Anchorage School system, 4th grade two years ago, with 33 rugrats in the class. The teacher was really squared away, but was hampered by out of date texts, inadequate classroom facilities, inadequate material. Not to mention her salary 25% less than comparable sized city school districts.

She moved to Cedar Rapids Iowa and started attending the Colony School District on the south side of CR. When I was visiting in May 2005, I spent two days at school with her (quite a feat for me as I despise children of all types anywhere). I was thoroughly impressed.

So I wouldn't use such a broad brush to paint this picture as I assure you it isn't a consistent picture.
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TPASXM787
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:53 pm

This is true, ANC. The school system here locally in CLW is getting better...they are building new schools, adding new teachers, and with the new/remodeled schools come better learning facilities/environments. However, as a whole, the model of education in FL sucks, the "FCAT" test just leads to teachers educating students just to pass the test, and not teaching them with a broad brush. Jeb at his finest.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
Are there still any public schools who adhere to that stupid idea of eliminating grades etc.?

No but it's national policy to remove any and all accountability among teachers...which is just about as silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
11Bravo
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:27 am

A quick look at the statistical analysis of these data does suggest that all three of these numbers are real trends (i.e. outside the 0.95 CI) rather than just variance associated with random chance. The two younger groups have improved, and the older group has declined.

Causation, however, is another matter despite the implication in the thread title. Unfortunately these data have not been collected in a way that allows for any controlled quantitative test. Cause and effect cannot be accurately established without control samples and mitigation for confounding variables.
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scbriml
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 10):
The two younger groups have improved, and the older group has declined.

I don't see how you can say the middle group has improved.

It is one point higher than in 1994, but still below the 1992 figure. I'd say the differences are statistically too small to be able to claim a trend.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
cwapilot
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:01 am

"No but it's national policy to remove any and all accountability among teachers...which is just about as silly."
--Uhh...care to explain that one?

As someone in the field, I know first-hand that there is a lot of crying and wailing and gnashing of teeth in regards to "No Child Left Behind." It has become a convenient way for administrators to deflect criticism from themselves when difficult decisions have to be made...it's always NCLB and/or George Bush. A good 70% of teachers I have come across are blind Democrat partisans, and will jump right on this bandwagon. What they forget is,besides the fact that Ole Uncle Tedward wrote and sponsored the legislation, Algore had an education plan very similar and, unlike the current system of "schools in need of assistance" and such, we would have seen the feds take over many, many schools in many, many districts (sometimes entire districts) across the country under that regime.

Now, what I have seen since NCLB came into effect, besides the blame game and an elevation of the funding/lack thereof fights that have been going on since the federal government began to intervene in state-run schools, is promising. Schools are being forced to examine themselves closely, look at real data, and make decisions that address those weaknesses. Part of why your Cedar Rapids example shows such a difference is because the State of Iowa has had a system of school improvement plans for years...and local control unlike any other state in the Union.

School improvement plans are tied directly to target areas, currently reading and math, and, this year, science (finally!). In larger districts, individual buildings have to address their issues as they relate to the main district issues. Teachers (the supposedly unaccountable ones) have to come up with what is called a "career development plan" in which they must document how they are going to improve their skills in order to meet those building/district/state/national goals....everything builds. In Iowa, this plan must be reviewed every three years and progress towards those goals must be demonstrated. There are also a set of 42 criteria that a teacher must document compliance with along with that career development plan. We, the unaccountable, must do all of this on our own time and, if it involves some sort of university work, our own pockets. Rather than a state designed test, as in Florida, Iowa continues to use the ITBS test, which has the only real, long-term set of data regarding student progress, to measure achievement. I have seen first hand, if the data is bad, and adequate improvement is not made, even after improvement plans, the English department or the math department is in for a personnel shakeup.

Another big complaint about NCLB is licensing requirements. Imagine this...evil old Bush thinks that you should be trained in and licensed in the area in which you teach...age level, ability level and subject area. Schools can still hire people on emergency certificates in shortage areas. However, those people can not stay on if they do not earn the required credentials within a 2 or 3 year period. So, gone are the guys with whistles around their necks drawing up football plays while you sit and do meaningless worksheets in social studies class. Gone are the ones who couldn't get hired in their own subject areas (because they suck, quite frankly), but get to live out their lives being ineffective in a special education classroom.

Funding? Tons of money (can't find the actual figure quoted by the education department) sits unclaimed in Washington because many states don't want the responsibilities associated with taking the money. Of course they would like to go back to the days of giant chunks of money with no strings attached for schools. Of course state level politicians would like more federal money...then they can continue to cut property taxes. Yes, some teachers are leaving..."die" rather than "adapt". But, as unpleasant as things may seem, schools are being forced to wake up to reality and get things moving. Buying a different textbook doesn't cut it anymore...research-supported programs actually shown to improve student performance must be implemented. That forces some veteran teachers to cut off the autopilot. The good ones were the ones adapting all along, and have no problem with this. The others should have been real estate agents or insurance salesmen to begin with.

In short, there seems to be a lot more focus on student achievement and improvement, rather than "how are we going to fill up this inservice day." I think that is a good thing, myself. Now, to see real progress, we should check in 8 years or so the progress of those who are now 9, when they are 17, to see if there are any significant changes. It's too early right now. I predict that, along the lines of the long-running ITBS, we will see some improvement, but nothing earth shaking. In fact, ITBS has shown a steady increase over the decades, even as the test has developed and more complex content has been included, and even as we went through this "education crisis" which the numbers do not bear out, and even as we went through various school improvement fads.
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11Bravo
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
I don't see how you can say the middle group has improved.

It is one point higher than in 1994, but still below the 1992 figure. I'd say the differences are statistically too small to be able to claim a trend.

I'm saying that because the 2004 data point is above the range of values for the mean for the data between 1971 and 1999. My statement applies for the entire range of data, not just the last few years.

The 95% confidence interval (CI) for the mean (257.5) in this case is 256.4744 to 258.5256. Any value outside that range is likely to be a real difference as opposed to a random variance. The 2004 data point (259) is above that range.
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cwapilot
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:12 am

One other thing to consider is that the nine year olds in 1971 are not the same group as the nine year olds in 1975. So, when schools compare this year's 8th grade scores to last year's 8th grade scores, is there really improvement or decline? They are two different groups. Different groups are better than others. For example, 2 years ago, our school showed huge 8th grade improvement over the previous year, and a huge decline the next year. We were comparing three groups...one that was average (ability-wise), one that was way above average and a third that was made up of 45% qualifying for special education. Now, taking that last group, which was reported as a decline in scores, when we compare that group's scores to its own scores the previous 3 years, they showed a much larger upswing in scores than the high ability group did over that same period. Should we be comparing groups to other groups, or should we be tracking groups over the years to see if they are improving? Well, under NCLB we are comparing different groups, which I think is flawed.
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Greyhound
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Our schools systems are struggling with overcrowding, underteaching and inadequate facilities.

Welcome to alot of the lower 48 states ANC... In case of emergency, the underfunded and overcrowded signs are located here, there and over there.

Seriously I know what you mean though... Our schools in AZ (before and after I left) had the same problem. Teachers get left in the dust because they do what the can with few resources that skrink year after year. And they do it in older facilities most of the time that are furnaces in the summer and freezers in the winter. Then the school districts have to cut more funds so more teachers get the ax. Then class size goes up, and teachers have to teach more, to more kids, with less resources. It's a shame.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
"No but it's national policy to remove any and all accountability among teachers...which is just about as silly."
--Uhh...care to explain that one?

Sounds like you know exactly what I mean:

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
A good 70% of teachers I have come across are blind Democrat partisans, and will jump right on this bandwagon



Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
Imagine this...evil old Bush thinks that you should be trained in and licensed in the area in which you teach



Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
Of course they would like to go back to the days of giant chunks of money with no strings attached for schools.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
B744F
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:20 am

Impressive... now can you tell me exactly what a 9 year old has to learn to do average?
 
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alberchico
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:34 am

The problem is culture rather than money. If parents did a better job raising their kids rather than let them waste their lives playing video games and eating Doritos and getting obese then mabye they would do better in school. Of course parents feel comfortable blaming the schools and goverment, nobody likes to take responsibily for their own stupidity.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
B744F
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:36 am

Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

Honestly, what child actually listens to their parents demands for watching TV, movies, video games, junk food, etc? The kids and parents all need to be educated and society needs to do a better job of putting these companies that take advantage of these situations in check, instead of playing the blame game on the parents who in their kids eyes have no authority.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

many parents work and still do a fine job raising their kids. So your excuse is invalid
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cwapilot
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:33 am

Maverick...I'm sorry, but, NO, you did not explain how removing accountability from teachers is national policy. If there is some far left group who wants to throw $$$ after $$$ in the schools with no accountability, then you sound to be part of the far right group which likes to label all teachers as lazy, good for nothings who do everything possible to avoid accountability...as a member of either fringe group, I see no difference between the two. Teacher/public school hating is popular in some Republican circles, but it is ill-informed and ignorant. Read some of what Thomas Jefferson wrote about the need for educating the public.

Now, holiding teachers and their livelihoods accountable to some test scores which may or may not be valid...if that is what you are talking about...then, HELL YES people in education are going to want to avoid that. Why should teachers be held accountable for that which they have little control over? If a kid skips 3 days of school on testing week, is not fed breakfast regularly, is allowed to roam the streets until 3 AM, take drugs, has been affected by drugs taken by parents, etc., etc., etc....is their classroom experience all that affects their test scores and their achievement in school?

B744F...don't delude yourself. In families in which kids are free to do as they please, both parents are not toiling away to put food on the table. A house like that (with two hard working parents) has a work ethic...I know, I lived in one. We sure as hell went to bed when we were supposed to, did homework, weren't allowed to play video games except on Fridays and Saturdays, etc. Most of the time, when the opposite is true, there is some sort of other dysfunction, drug abuse being chief among them. It is amazing to me to see how many electronic gadgets these kids and their parents have, when they are on free and reduced lunch programs or are not required to pay for field trips. It all boils down to priorities. I have seen dirt poor Mexican and Vietnamese immigrant children working their arses off, doing their HW in Spanish/Vietnamese and then translating it into English to turn it in with parents who work double shifts at meat packing plants or credit card payment processing centers, while their white American-born counterparts do what their lazy, welfare collecting parents do...NOTHING. When it comes down to it, a lot of this accountability stuff ends up being holding teachers accountable for the crap lives some parents provide their children.

edited for clarity

[Edited 2005-08-09 22:36:10]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

 redflag  I assure you, if the child is reared properly from the start, not when they begin to present issues, then this will not be a problem. Do you have any experience in that arena? I'm asking because without a frame of reference your input is bogus.

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Honestly, what child actually listens to their parents demands for watching TV, movies, video games, junk food, etc?

My daughter. There are rules; there are consequences for violation thereof. Nothing corporal - simple restriction of liberties (quick call the frickin' ACLU). It's a very effective method - and has been practiced since she was very young. No means no, she understands that clearly. She knows right from wrong, and has no problem calling the  redflag  (Like her Dad) when it is necessary.

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 21):
When it comes down to it, a lot of this accountability stuff ends up being holding teachers accountable for the crap lives some parents provide their children.

I concur. If a lot of parents would pull their heads out of rectal defilade and do their job of parenting the child all the time many issues faced today would disappear.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KiwiNanday
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:21 am

Dear MaverickM11,

I don't give a sh*t that Bush's education reforms may be working! Why, might you ask? Because our school and public works system is still underfunded, and it gets less money every year! Our schools aren't getting the money they need, so i don't give a f*cking sh*t about President Bush's education plan. Why? Because he promised to lower taxes, but lower taxes = less money for cops, firefighters, etc. So don't lower taxes, we NEED taxes! How else do we assure that we are safe, and getting a proper education?

Signed,
Kiwi, and every other member of an underfunded school system
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 21):
you did not explain how removing accountability from teachers is national policy.

What are you talking about? You said 70% of teachers blindly jump on the Democrat bandwagon which in lockstep with the teachers unions want ever-more money with ever-fewer strings (read accountability) attached. It's not national policy, but if the teachers union had its way, it *would* be national policy--throw money at education until it (inevitably never) improves with no accountability or incentive/disincentive for progress....and when that doesn't work, request more money.

[Edited 2005-08-09 23:44:53]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
TedTAce
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:03 am

Calling Bush "an education preisdent" is like me saying any of the following:

I have the biggest penis on a.net
I have slept with every female A.netter and they can't wait to do it again!!
I did not have sexual relations with that woman  Yeah sure
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texan
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
A good 70% of teachers I have come across are blind Democrat partisans, and will jump right on this bandwagon.

Not in Texas. A good portion of teachers here are Republicans, which surprised the hell out of me. True, there are still a lot of Democratic teachers, but it is much closer to 50/50 here. And they don't jump on the bandwagon much either, they actually question what the government does no matter who is in power.

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
Schools are being forced to examine themselves closely, look at real data, and make decisions that address those weaknesses.

Or give children passing grades when they did not earn them (administrators do this more than teachers), hold underperforming children back during testing years only to spirit them ahead of the test class after repeating a year, report dropouts as having "moved," and lie on the tardy list, saying that everyone is there, even kids who are not enrolled. And it is also really easy to make these decisions when the state government refuses to pass an educational spending budget and cuts $60 million from a textbook budget that was already short by $50 million the year before. In other words, approximately 20% of Texas school children do not have textbooks and therefore cannot do assignments. Is Bush to blame for this? Not fully, he is not here now. However, he did start the plan that led us down this path. He screwed up our state education system mightily during his reign here.

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

The majority of kids in my class who were getting in trouble had parents that were either lazy or just didn't care. They would leave for the weekend without telling their kids or just saying, "Here's $100 for you so you can survive by yourself this weekend." The ones who had parents who worked a ton just to get by were almost never in trouble and usually received good grades.


Alrighty, lookit: first off the Federal Government has no damn clue how to educate kids. Whether it is the White House or the NEA, they just do not get it. It takes textbooks, it takes teachers, and it involves teaching concepts instead of teaching a test. Yes, test scores will improve, but only because that is all the kids are learning. And they are not really learning it either. They are simply being taught to memorize the data and regurgitate it to make the school look good. Treating education like a business does not f*****g work, people. These are not commodities we are dealing with that we can just send off and they will automatically serve their purpose. These are our children, impressionable people who should be able to think for themselves and outside of the box. People in the government keep trying to control them and want to measure the success of their programs. That always seems important to them for some reason, measuring every single thing immediately. Folks, education will not improve ovenight. It will takes years and years, possibly decades of hard work to get the system back on track. You want to measure results? See how many kids that graduate from our public schools go on to college; go on to innovate new ideas and products; go on to improve our lives; and go on to become rational beings that are able to think for themselves and not just accept wholesale the garbage thrown at them every day. Give the teachers more freedom to teach the students in a way that will be conducive to learning and will actually provide a basis for the students to continue to want to learn in the future. Every child learns differently, give the teachers the tools they need to help every single last one of our kids succeed.

Or would you rather boast about a graph?

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
ROTFL. I'm nothing like Michael Moore, NWA742. You think Moore takes the view on Hiroshima, or Hugo Chavez that I do. I think you confuse me with
dearly departed Rsmith.

Well you do bring up a very valid point, but now that Randy is departed, there's gotta be somebody to take his spot, so don't get too close!

 Wink

BTW, what was he banned for?




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 25):
I have the biggest penis on a.net
I have slept with every female A.netter and they can't wait to do it again!!
I did not have sexual relations with that woman

I think you basically just told everyone on a.net that you're a virgin with a small penis, whether true or not.  Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
TedTAce
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
Silly

At least there is a sense of humor about it  Smile
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StevenUhl777
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RE: Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:38 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
Lies, damned lies and statistics!

or..."figures don't lie, but liars figure"

(general quote, not directed at anyone in this thread)
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!

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