soyuzavia
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 am

The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:24 am

As of today, what do you all think is the real threat to the stability of the USA?

Most people would likely say Islamic terrorism, or something along those lines?

I would say it is something completely different.

The real threat to the USA isn't anything remotely related to terrorism or human rights or anything like that. But rather it is something that one can describe as 'vile' and 'outright evil'.

Consider this.

In 2000 there was a major statement made in Iraq. Saddam announced that he would be adopting evil as official policy. That evil of course being the , otherwise known as the Euro. This policy meant that all Iraqi oil would need to be paid for in the Euro.

Iraq is sitting on top of the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world, and that they would adopt the Euro, lessening the US$, was unthinkable for Washington. It was at this time that backroom plans for attacking Iraq really started to gather momentum. But nothing much was done about it. Plus economists generally thought that Saddam was crazy, so what the hell, let him fritter away Iraq's money, particularly as at the time the Euro was worth little (around EUR0.85 to USD1.00), not to mention that there were sanctions against Iraq at the time.

But now fast forward a couple of years. What happened? The Euro gained in value by over 30% against the US$. Very nearly overnight, a 'silly' political statement made by Saddam a dozen or so months earlier, netted him 'profits' in the tens of billions of Euro. Saddam had basically proven that the world standard currency for the last 30 years wasn't the only currency out there which could be traded with. Other countries might also realise this and also start trading in Euro.

Then the plans for war started to be made public. Weapons of mass destructions, links to Al Qaeda, etc, etc.

GWB himself said, along the lines, that Saddam is a threat to the "American way of life". What exactly is this "American way of life"?

An Australian writer by the name of Geoffrey Heard explains it very well:

Quote:
You are deep in debt but every day you write cheques for millions of dollars you don't have – another luxury car, a holiday home at the beach, the world trip of a lifetime.

Your cheques should be worthless but they keep buying stuff because those cheques you write never reach the bank! You have an agreement with the owners of one thing everyone wants, call it petrol, that they will accept only your cheques as payment.

This means everyone must hoard your cheques so they can buy petrol. Since they have to keep a stock of your cheques, they use them to buy other stuff too. You write a cheque to buy a TV, the TV shop owner swaps your cheque for petrol, that seller buys some vegetables at the fruit shop, the fruiterer then passes it on to buy bread, the baker buys some flour with it, and on it
goes, round and round – but never back to the bank.

You have a debt on your books, but so long as your cheque never reaches the bank, you don't have to pay. In effect, you have received your TV free.

In short, Saddam exposed that the US was writing cheques it's butt can't cash, and that the 'American way of life' is a subsidised economic free ride.

Then look at the other major players in the Iraq issue. France and Germany -- were against the war -- part of the Euro zone. Russia -- against the war -- is increasingly adopting the Euro as it's currency of choice. China -- against the war -- now has large Euro reserves. UK -- for the war -- not in the Euro zone, and an oil producer (all paid for of course in US$). See a pattern there?

The invasion of Iraq, whilst generally thought to be about oil, wasn't about controlling obtaining a cheap and available source of oil, but rather controlling the currency in which that oil was sold, so it would come as no surprise that one of the first things the US changed in Iraq after they toppled Saddam was to dump the Euro as the petrocurrency in Iraq and re-adopted the US$.

The message to the world was sent. Or was it?

Now fast forward to the present day.

Iran recently, by accident, elected a hardline president. Immediately after the vote, accusations are made that he was involved in the overtaking of the US Embassy in Tehran years ago. It was shown later that he was in fact not the person who was photographed. But this had the desired effect with the public - mention "new Iranian president" to the average Joe, and he will tell you he was one of those involved. Even today the US government still basically insists that he was somehow involved in the Embassy incident -- even though all information says that he was against it, and was actually in favour of taking over the Soviet Embassy instead. This is all part of laying the groundwork.

The other line that is being used by Washington is weapons of mass destruction (a la Iraq), and Iran's 'intent' on developing nuclear weapons. No evidence has been presented that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. It is widely thought that this 'intelligence' has been obtained by Washington from the MKO, an internationally outlawed terrorist organisation, which has a clear intent on establishing it's own control in Iran at any cost (again, a la Iraq with Challabi and the Iraqi National Congress). It is unlikely the MKO would have such information as they have very little (to nil) support in Iran, and those working in the Iranian nuclear industry would have been thoroughly screened by the regime. In Iran the MKO is hated even more than the US 'supposedly' is, and the US' intelligence on Iran is quite poor, so one would have to presume the MKO's is even worse.

You then forward to the last few days. Iran announces it wasn't accepting the proposal put forward by the UK, France and Germany, information from Iranian media saying there was nothing proposed that they couldn't do legally any way. Germany says that they will keep the lines of communication open. France says basically the same thing. The UK starts playing the blame game (Iran is to blame of course). And the US threatens military action (albeit not explicitly).

Now have a look at that threat of military action. Bush said

Quote:
“The use of force is the last option for any president and you know we’ve used force in the recent past to secure our country.”

There it is again. "secure our country", akin to "protect the American way of life".

France (a Euro country) said weeks ago that military action is not an option in Iran. Germany (another Euro country) lamblasted Bush for saying what he did. Britain (a US$ country), whilst distancing itself somewhat from the threats by Bush, is wanting to set a deadline for Iran to agree to the (illegal) demands (September 3 to be exact). And the US, well it has been made clear what it wants.

So what is Iran's real 'crime'?

If you guessed it has something to do with the Euro, you would be right.

Iran has been pressing within OPEC for the last few years to open up OPEC to not only the petrodollar, but also the petroeuro. There was support for this from Iran, Iraq (as per above) and Venezuela (another US 'target'). Saudi Arabia's economic community is allfor the petroeuro, as they pulled money out of the US markets in droves post-2001. But the Saudi government, which is 'begging' for regime change, has expressed their 'support' for the petrodollar, no doubt because they saw what happened to its northern neighbour after it made the switch.

Since 2003 Iran has priced exports to the EU and Asia in Euro, however, majority of its oil sales have continued to be priced in USD. This however will be changing.

Sometime in 2006 a new Euro priced oil bourse is expected to open in London, led by Iranian efforts, and will provide competition to the NYMEX (New York Mercantile Exchange) (American owned) and the International Petroleum Exchange (London based American owned). This will have the effect that Iran will price all of it's exports in future in Euro.

According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html Iran exports are valued at nearly US$40 billion a year, with oil making up 80% (US$32 billion).

By opening the bourse, this will place pressure on other OPEC countries to make the switch (either in part or in full) to the Euro priced bourse. And it's a move which makes sense. OPEC currently exports 50% of its oil to the Eurozone, so by pricing in Euro, you are taking the US$ out of the equation to the tune of tens of billions per year.

It could also make Russia, the largest non-OPEC exporter and 2nd largest overall, to follow suit more quickly than already planned. The bulk of Russian imports and exports are already priced in Euro, yet 75% of national reserves are still in US$, and seeing as they currently export ~60% of its oil to the EU (and over 50% of all exports), this switch too makes sense.

I have seen estimates that the current world oil trade is valued in the vicinity of US$650 billion per year (around 10% of total world trade). If you look at the top oil exporters http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html the countries which would be most likely to operate under a petroeuro regime (in full or in part) are:

Russia : 6.67mln b/d
Iran : 2.55mln b/d
Venezuela : 2.36mln b/d
Algeria : 1.68mln b/d
Libya : 1.34mln b/d

Work it out at US$60 per barrel, that equates to ~US$320 billion per year, which is half of the global annual oil trade. And then add all those TV's, vegetables, loafs of bread, etc and the amount will skyrocket. All priced in Euro.

And it would have the effect of other countries scaling back their dependency on the US$ for trade, maybe not so much out of desire, but out of necessity. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

The euro based oil standard is a real threat to the economic, political and general survival of the US, not to mention its world hegemony. If the petroeuro is allowed to gather momentum, it could be only a matter of time before the US, weighed under with many hundreds of billions of foreign debt, is taken to court, declared bankrupt, broken up and sold off to the lowest bidder (all bids to be settled in Euro of course). Washington needs to stop it at any cost. Some say that a US war with Iran is only a matter of time, many others (myself included) say that the war has already begun.

Thoughts/comments?
 
photopilot
Posts: 3062
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:02 am

Well you're sort of right, but also sort of wrong.

The PetroEuro isn't really the crux of the problem. The problem is the much vaunted "American Way of Life" which it's citizens simply can't afford.

Lets look at the indicators.

- The USA continues to spend more than it makes as a country.
- The USA's balance of trade is a negative, and has been for many years.
- The citizens of the USA enjoy the "good life" by driving themselves farther into debt through easy credit. The per capita debt of an American is many times higher than any other industrialized country.
- The USA presently imports 58% of it's oil needs. That will rise to 68% by 2026, yet no meaningful conservation takes place. It's NOT a god-given-right to drive a big V8 powered SUV!

Sooner or later as they say, America will have to pay the piper. Will the IMF have to step in and impose economic controls on the US? The American "way of life" and standard of living has obviously peaked and now starts the big decline. Other countries, including Canada, have had to take the tough economic decisions to wrestle their budgets into control. Sooner or later, the USA will have to do the same.

So to answer your hypothesis, the real threat to the USA is itself and it's proliferate spending. The USA is on track to self-destruct monitarily. It's just a question of how long this will take.

My 2 cents worth.
 
jacobin777
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:16 am

Photopilot..you are correct in your analysis..as I've come down to the same conclusions..

of course, the Federal Reserve and Govt. want the typical American to believe that they have become "richer" because of the rise of their property, even though its been artifically inflated to bubble-levels.

The United States savings rates is one of the worst in the world (if not the worst) for and insdustrialised nation.

Debt to GDP (both private and public) is at an outstanding 300% of GDP-which is worse then pre-Depression levels!!!

source: Ned Davis Research


what will happen when the bill collector comes..beats me..but it sure isn't going to look good

two great websites.


http://www.prudentbear.com
http://www.dailyreckoning.com/
"Up the Irons!"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:49 am

>>

- The USA continues to spend more than it makes as a country.
- The USA's balance of trade is a negative, and has been for many years.
- The citizens of the USA enjoy the "good life" by driving themselves farther into debt through easy credit. The per capita debt of an American is many times higher than any other industrialized country.



This is exactly what I fear above all else. I live in Collin County Texas, and there was a series of articles called the Price of Prospertiy talking about how an increasingly larger percent of the adult (and now youth) generations are disolusioned with material aquisition they can't maintain. Education seems like less and less of a priority and it all becomes about wanting a BMW or Playstation and not working toward a viable career/lifestyle.

>> So to answer your hypothesis, the real threat to the USA is itself and it's proliferate spending.

 yes 
 
scamp
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:58 am

It's my considered opinion that the real threat to the USA can be summed up in the following...

George W. Bush and his Facist, Right-wing Orchestra.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
tbar220
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:25 am

Wasn't materialsm one of the major problems of the Roman Empire before it collapsed? Correct me if I'm wrong. An empire gets powerful. Its people become complacent in the ways of science, art, and logic. Materialism begins to overshadow everything else as a way of life. I think its a very dangerous trend and perhaps impossible to get out of.
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soyuzavia
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:34 am

Photopilot, I do agree with you, however...  Wink

Of course the US is living beyond it's means. I don't think there is a single person who would deny that?

It's actually quite interesting that you mentioned the US trade deficit, because it has been in deficit ever since 1970/1971, which is the same time that OPEC adopted the petrodollar.

I wonder if one were to draw a graph of comparing increases of US foreign debt to the price (not consumption) of oil (onwards from 1971) whether the lines would sit directly on top of one another? Without knowing for certain one way or the other, I'll go out on a limb here and say that there be a very close correlation?

Sorry for being overly metaphorical here.........

I see the issues you mention as an addiction. If you look for the 'enabler' of the 'addiction' you mentioned, you will find the petrodollar. So long as there is oil, and so long as the US$ is the only currency used for its purchase, the US can afford to support its addiction.

They say, prevention is better than a cure, but in this issue, the cure seems like a much easier pill to swallow.

Back to the real world, yes, sooner or later the US will buckle under the weight of its own debt. By stopping the petroeuro from gaining a foothold in the world economy, it will allow hold back the 'real' world for a 'little' while longer.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 4):
It's my considered opinion that the real threat to the USA can be summed up in the following...

George W. Bush and his Facist, Right-wing Orchestra.

And all of this happened just when Bush took office?

 redflag  redflag  redflag 

You better go back to school - beat your economics teacher in the head for allowing you to graduate with this  redflag  in your head.

Congrats to you though - 4 posts in this thread before Bush got blamed for something else. . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
prosa
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:47 am

My main fear for the future of the United States is the massive amount of mortgage debt that people have been incurring. If there is a widespread deflation affecting residential properties - which may not occur, which is why I said "if" - the economic damage could be enormous. And that's not even to mention the personal misery so many people will experience.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:48 am

I think China.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
aloges
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:51 am

I think it's "Fast Food" à la McD's.

If you do some math, this becomes sad and worrying.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:14 am

Well, Iran is actively pursuing a nuclear weapons capability - not least as a response to the military-only strategies of the current US administration as can be presumed.

And Iran does in fact continue to make threats against Israel and supports militant palestinian groups.

So things aren´t really that simple.

But I would still agree that on some level, the ongoing currency shift and the US trade imbalance will probably figure into the strategies of at least some players in and around the White House... It is difficult to explain the complete absence of a viable long-term strategy for the USA without thinking of even the more bizarre scenarios...
 
soyuzavia
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
Wasn't materialsm one of the major problems of the Roman Empire before it collapsed? Correct me if I'm wrong. An empire gets powerful. Its people become complacent in the ways of science, art, and logic. Materialism begins to overshadow everything else as a way of life. I think its a very dangerous trend and perhaps impossible to get out of.

There were a few reasons. And none of them had anything to do with Russell Crowe

If you look here

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romefallarticles/a/fallofrome.htm

you'll find quite a few similarities such as that which you mentioned....unemployment, inflation, military spending, etc

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Well, Iran is actively pursuing a nuclear weapons capability - not least as a response to the military-only strategies of the current US administration as can be presumed.

Careful there Klaus. Iran may or may not be pursuing a nuclear weapons capability. As I mentioned in my opening post, there is no proof of this? The mere fact that Iran has begun the process of converting uranium is not evidence that they are pursuing nuclear weapons, as this process is also needed for nuclear energy.

But we do have this from today....

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article305741.ece

UN nuclear watchdog rebuts claims that Iran is trying to make A-bomb

It is an interesting read. And it will be interesting to see what the next move is from the UK/France/Germany. For Washington, if it follows Iraq, I am thinking it will probably be this............(I hope it won't be)

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
And Iran does in fact continue to make threats against Israel and supports militant palestinian groups.

Iranian threats towards Israel are really nothing more than rhetoric.

Iran's support of militant Palestinian groups is not reason enough to attack. Other countries also give this support, yet there is no threat to them.

There is however this

http://www.13wham.com/news/national/...C07A2F-71C3-41DB-AB74-630CDCC6F52E

It is full of accusations, but it lacks independent corroboration. Iran has categorically denied all accusations, so it is merely propaganda at this point.

So far, Iran has done nothing which would warrant military action against it (compared to other countries), and the premature 'threat' of military action has to make one think?

[Edited 2005-08-14 22:38:05]
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 1):
- The USA continues to spend more than it makes as a country.

I’ll cater to that. It amazes me how many of my co-workers and neighbors don’t really own anything; they sure carry a lot of paper. Having a residual lease mortgage on a new BMW isn’t owning anything – no equity.

I went to buy a new laptop yesterday. They asked me if I wanted to finance it – WTF? Finance a laptop? I told the dimwit I’d pay cash (paper $$$, not a check card). Looked at me like I had come from another planet.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Congrats to you though - 4 posts in this thread before Bush got blamed for something else. . . . .

I would have guessed at least 5 or 6 posts.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
soyuzavia
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 12):
you'll find quite a few similarities such as that which you mentioned....unemployment, inflation, military spending, etc

Instead of editing, I'll just add to this. Some of the problems experienced by Rome are currently being experienced by the US, such as military spending although even this is subsidised by the petrodollar. Some of the problems will certainly be experienced in the future with a petroeuro regime (such as inflation, unemployment). And some of the problems can be applied to the US, but in a metaphorical way, such as Rome running out of conquered lands, can metaphorically apply to the US, in that the US could run out of 'conquered' US-priced oil. Loose connections, sure, but connections all the same.

And to stay fair and balanced, here's an argument against the petroeuro (in general) and also in regards to US military actions

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/nov03/middleEast.asp

Some points he makes against are out of date -- such as Iran's intention to price oil in Euro which was announced after he wrote the piece.

http://www.iranmania.com/News/Articl...e=33661&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs

It will be located on Kish (a free trade zone), not in London as I thought.

And also Russia's intention to start euro-priced oil exports, which is gaining momentum since this was published.

So I am really interested to hear what others think about the petroeuro, and whether it could really be a success? And what implications there would be for the US and also for the Euro.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:55 am

Personally...in my humble opinion.

Its not oil, its not bush, iraq, afghanistan, petro dolloars, EU etc...its the stupidity of the average American and the ignorance that they hold. Obviously no one on here who holds an American passport (including me) is guilty of this because to the least on this forum we discuss politics, economics, international events etc. I find it really disturbing that the average joe in the USA is sinking this country with their IQ levels. I further believe the problem is born in the US educational system. This whole 'focus on hands-on experiences and classes' is bullshit. Instead of having these BS classes we should be learning Physics, we should be having classes on politics, economics etc. starting at a younger age...because none of these classes really become serious until junior/senior year in high school and at the end its only for the select few who take Advanced Placement courses.
 
scamp
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Thread starter):
And all of this happened just when Bush took office?



You better go back to school - beat your economics teacher in the head for allowing you to graduate with this in your head.

Congrats to you though - 4 posts in this thread before Bush got blamed for something else. . . . .

The President, Democrat or Republican, has VERY little impact on the economy...although he usually is blamed and or takes credit (depending on the circumstances) as if he does. The economy is more influenced by the second (or perhaps the truly most) powerful man in the country, the head of the Federal Reserve.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:08 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 15):
its the stupidity of the average American and the ignorance that they hold.

For once, I'll hold my tongue on this one, LOT.  Wink

I think, far more than terrorism, our spending what we don't have, on a personal and a governmental level. I'm as guilty of that as anyone, although my wife and I, in the past, have worked hard to reduce or debt. But when paycuts hit, like we've had at work, and your expenses rise-like paying for electricity and gasoline, there's only so much you can do. I'm working an extra day at work, just to get us back to even right now. We're trying to find a decent online business to run-although there's so many scams out there, it's hard to figure out what to do.

Americans need to realize that it's not a God-given right to take that vacation to Cancun, and to break the bank to do it. I don't see us taking any kind of vacation at least till '07. We need to live within our means.

And, no Bush isn't the first to do this, but his administration is one of the most fiscally irresponsible of all time in this nation, and the average person thinks "hell, if the fed can live beyond it's means, why can't I?" Well, someday, the chips could get called in, and there's gonna be hell to pay.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 16):
Quoting Soyuzavia (Thread starter):
And all of this happened just when Bush took office?



You better go back to school - beat your economics teacher in the head for allowing you to graduate with this in your head.

Congrats to you though - 4 posts in this thread before Bush got blamed for something else. . . . .

The President, Democrat or Republican, has VERY little impact on the economy...although he usually is blamed and or takes credit (depending on the circumstances) as if he does. The economy is more influenced by the second (or perhaps the truly most) powerful man in the country, the head of the Federal Reserve.

At least I should get credit where due here - it is not Soyuzavia that you quoted above - tis I . . . in reply #7.

Now to the point - in one post (see below) - you blame the President, and in the one I just quoted (see above) you say it isn't his problem? WTF?? WHich is it? Damn, if you're going to run off at the mouth, at least be consistent!  confused  I think you've been hitting the bottle a bit too often?

Quoting Scamp (Reply 4):
It's my considered opinion that the real threat to the USA can be summed up in the following...

George W. Bush and his Facist, Right-wing Orchestra.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
"hell, if the fed can live beyond it's means, why can't I?"

Falcon –

That is not so much the issue – its credit everywhere. I’ve had co-workers living way beyond their means; fancy cars, living in ritzy neighborhoods, all the toys, etc.

Even wealthy (upper middle class households) pulling $100k+ a year, living paycheck to paycheck. If you can’t pay cash for it, there is no reason to have 2 homes, a condo, 5 (count em) vehicles, a boat, and in some cases an airplane payment (at least a share of one) and horses. (unless you own the crap)

Then they go out and spend, spend, spend. New golf clubs, landscaping, new cell phones, new home entertainment system, going out to eat every night, the list goes on - all on credit.

They laugh at my 15 year-old Mazda Miata. I laugh all the way to the bank.

Five years ago, a co-worker bought a Hyundai, brand new, with cash. Not that entry level one; but the 4-door, CD player, alloy wheels, sunroof. Great car. Anyone gives you a 100k warranty; I’d buy it, too!

He got a few snide comments. His reply: I want gas money, too!

I don’t think Americans step back and say What’s good for the Fed, is good for me.

JR - The FlyingTexan


 stretch 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
halls120
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:52 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
And, no Bush isn't the first to do this, but his administration is one of the most fiscally irresponsible of all time in this nation, and the average person thinks "hell, if the fed can live beyond it's means, why can't I?" Well, someday, the chips could get called in, and there's gonna be hell to pay.

The problem isn't George Bush. The problem is the American public. Remember the last time we had a President who suggested we cut back, economize, and live within our means? That would be Jimmy Carter, who was run out of town on a rail because he was too pessimistic about the "American Future."

Now - I am NOT a Jimmy Carter fan. I think he was the worst president of the last half century. But one lesson of his failed presidency was that telling Americans they had to turn the thermostat up and wear sweaters indoors was a sure ticket to losing an election. And all of his successors learned the lesson well. Even Bill Clinton's surpluses were built on tax revenues generated by an illusory economic boom.

If the shit does hit the fan eventually for us - to the eternal delight of all the US bashers here on Anet, I'm sure - instead of the American people taking a good, long hard look in the mirror, whoever is in charge will get blamed for letting it happen.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
UAL747
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:17 am

I think the downfall of our society is in the allocation of modern labor. No longer are we an industrial nation, per se, but we are a nation of information processing, we outsource the labor. This is two-fold. While it gives the US more luxuries in time, vacations, etc., while people of other industrial nations are working 7 days a week in a factory, it is also going to cause a rise of the middle class in nations such as China, India, and certain Asian countries. These nations, especially China, will develop much like that of the development of the United States economically and socially, but the development will be exponentially faster than that of the US, due to high levels of technology that are available. If you want a sound investment, invest in China.

The down side of all this is an increase in the gap between the extremely wealthy and the poor in the US, and a decrease in the middle class. Middle class jobs are going abroad and eventually if the continuation of outsourcing labor goes on, the country will economically collapse under it's own corruption from the vast divide between classes. Economic collapse leads to social collapse, and the US is back in the stoneage. But everyone will have a cell phone,  Smile

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
scamp
Posts: 616
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting ANCFLYER,:
At least I should get credit where due here - it is not Soyuzavia that you quoted above - tis I . . . in reply #7.

Now to the point - in one post (see below) - you blame the President, and in the one I just quoted (see above) you say it isn't his problem? WTF?? WHich is it? Damn, if you're going to run off at the mouth, at least be consistent! I think you've been hitting the bottle a bit too often?

Hmm...a certain kissing place is very available to any of the embarassments to primates also known as Republicans.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 22):
Hmm...a certain kissing place is very available to any of the embarassments to primates also known as Republicans.

Fortunate for me then I'm not Republican . . .  laughing 

Now, are you going to answer my question in 18 or continue to post  redflag ?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:53 pm

The biggest threat to the United States ? Fluoridation polluting out precious bodily fluids, and a general lack of purity of essence. Think about it. Since 1946 our government has been putting fluoride into our drinking water. Polluting out precious bodily fluids. Fluoridation causes us to lose our will to fight and question authority.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 24):
Fluoridation causes us to lose our will to fight and question authority.

Someone go on Ebay and order a straightjacket........
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:18 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
For once, I'll hold my tongue on this one, LOT.

Because you know that you agree with me  Silly

This goes beyond Democrats or Republicans, its just that there is alot of people who dont have a clue outside of what exists out of their state lines.

Quoting Scamp (Reply 22):
Hmm...a certain kissing place is very available to any of the embarassments to primates also known as Republicans.

*gasp* *shock* I didnt know democrats already hold the fort when it comes to one celled creatures, but now that you spoke I believe it!*coughs*
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:04 pm

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 24):
The biggest threat to the United States ? Fluoridation polluting out precious bodily fluids, and a general lack of purity of essence. Think about it. Since 1946 our government has been putting fluoride into our drinking water. Polluting out precious bodily fluids. Fluoridation causes us to lose our will to fight and question authority.

As we all know, Dr. Strangelove has the ultimate remedy for that...! Big grin
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:38 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
when Bush took office

well, what does George W Bush share with Usama BinLad'n ?
A) they stopped drinking alcoholic beverages when they "found" religion
B) they behave as being a kind of prophet
C) they both believe that either are with them or against them
*******************************************************
 duck 
 
Klaus
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:17 pm

Peculiar, isn´t it?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Peculiar

Most peculiar indeed !
 
halls120
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 24):
The biggest threat to the United States ? Fluoridation polluting out precious bodily fluids, and a general lack of purity of essence. Think about it. Since 1946 our government has been putting fluoride into our drinking water. Polluting out precious bodily fluids. Fluoridation causes us to lose our will to fight and question authority.

As we all know, Dr. Strangelove has the ultimate remedy for that...!

I miss Stanley Kubrick. Even his flops (eyes wide shut) were worth the price of admission.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Now - I am NOT a Jimmy Carter fan. I think he was the worst president of the last half century.

What a baseless comment
 
Greyhound
Posts: 1012
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 1):
It's NOT a god-given-right to drive a big V8 powered SUV!

SUV's are the devil because momma said... signed,

29th, Let's Go!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 32):
What a baseless comment

Pot, Kettle, Black.

I think you'll find that sentiment in a lot of A-Netters . . . that said, he's a great diplomat and his contributions after his Presidency have been extraordinary. His tenure in the White House however, left much to be desired . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:01 am



Bring back the Concorde
 
Klaus
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
I miss Stanley Kubrick. Even his flops (eyes wide shut) were worth the price of admission.

Absolutely.
 
B744F
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):
Pot, Kettle, Black.

I don't make statements without explaining the reasons

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):
I think you'll find that sentiment in a lot of A-Netters . . . that said, he's a great diplomat and his contributions after his Presidency have been extraordinary. His tenure in the White House however, left much to be desired . .

Like what? he was crippled by the Middle Eastern dictators who raised fuel prices, terrorists, the change to fiat money which crashed our economy by Nixon, and other reasons.

And yet a joker like Reagan gets many peoples votes for one of the best Presidents...
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 37):
I don't make statements without explaining the reasons

 spit  spit  spit  faint 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
soyuzavia
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 15):
Its not oil, its not bush, iraq, afghanistan, petro dolloars, EU etc...its the stupidity of the average American and the ignorance that they hold.

Of course this is true. The average American Joe is living in a dream land. And sooner or later the dream will end with Joe waking up to a nightmare. Or Communism if you believe the oft misquoted Khrushchev quote Big grin

My 'real threat' statement isn't so much proclaiming that the Euro will cause the downfall of the US, as there are many mitigating factors which will cause that without the Euro.

But it is more of a hypothetical statement that a petroeuro could be a major mitigating factor in ending the dream, and the correlation towards it's possibility dictating US military and foreign policy.

The 'opposing' link provided above doesn't really 'admit' that the most important thing to the US is it's economy, without it, it will fail, plain and simple. And it's quite noble to say that Americans need to change, but this change will never happen, due to successive governments sitting firmly in the pockets of vested interests. I see the modern US economy as an unstable inverted pyramid. At the bottom, supporting it, is oil and the dollar, then as you move up the pyramid you pass all the other varying factors of government and finance, etc whilst the very top of the pyramid is the consumer. Real change is needed, but the change needs to occur at the very bottom to provide a stable foundation. But since the end of WWII, not a single government has done anything about it -- it's a "she'll be right" attitude. The petroeuro comes along, bumps that foundation, and the pyramid will topple over. And it needs to be stopped. In recent years, it's a policy which is straight out of the Wolfowitz and PNAC playbook.

Militarily, the US can't do much to Iran, the US military even admits this themselves, having simulated scenarios in recent times and every one was a fail (according to reports). Whoever controls the Straits of Hormuz, not only controls the Gulf, but basically controls the world (via the flow of oil). Iran controls the Straits of Hormuz, and keeps it open to allow Gulf originating trade to occur. The entire Iran 'controversy' isn't being done to get Iran to stop nuclear energy programs. It's being done to provoke them. Provoke them into doing something stupid, which will then give anti-Iranian parties the legitimate excuse to invade. And the 'threat' to bomb their facilities is one provocation, because we know that Iran won't sit idly by and let the Great Satan and the Zionist Fascists do this without retaliation, either directly against Israel, or against the US (most likely in Iraq, due to the lack of Iranian weapons which can reach the US).

PNAC also doesn't count on Russia. Back when they wrote the playbook in the 90s, it was generally thought that Russia would be firmly in the US pockets. And whilst this might have been true under Yeltsin and the 'wild west' days, under Putin things have changed somewhat.

Also not to be dismissed is China's involvement. Only a couple of weeks ago they adjusted the Yuan (ever so slightly), and removed the peg to the USD and started to float it against other currencies (which would definitely include the Euro). This issue was discussed on the forum recently, but can't find it. China has also been talking to Iran, as recently as last week according to media reports, in regards to the Euro oil bourse.

And just to correct this.....

Quoting Soyuzavia (Thread starter):
Since 2003 Iran has priced exports to the EU and Asia in Euro, however, majority of its oil sales have continued to be priced in USD. This however will be changing.

All Iranian oil sales are still priced in US$, but the actual transaction is conducted in Euro (what is the ALT + ??? for the Euro??).
 
soyuzavia
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:07 am

And a side question for anyone who can tell me.

I'm wondering what the amount of US government held foreign reserves are? I've looked, but can't seem to find.
 
Klaus
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:37 am

Under MacOS the € symbol is Alt+E; Have you tried that?
 
soyuzavia
Posts: 589
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:40 am

Nope, coz don't got the MacOS :P
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41):
Under MacOS the € symbol is Alt+E; Have you tried that?

Klaus, you use a Mac?
Your 'cool factor' is slipping.  Sad
Bring back the Concorde
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 42):
Nope, coz don't got the MacOS

You´re allowed to try this key combination even if you´re using Windows, you know...! Big grin

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
Klaus, you use a Mac? Your 'cool factor' is slipping.

Well, I guess your Windows PC feels right at home between your vinyl LP collection and your 8-track tapes and next to your car keys for your 1970s battleship...!  bigthumbsup 

Nostalgia is certainly a sympathetic trait, but I actually have to work with my computer, so I use a Macintosh.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:05 am

I like Macs when I was a kid. Big grin

Macs are cute & stylish though, if your in to that stuff.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
Macs are cute & stylish though, if your in to that stuff.

Much more important is that they actually work, without the perpetual aggravation so well-known otherwise...
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
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RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
Much more important is that they actually work, without the perpetual aggravation so well-known otherwise...

Don't do much work with the latest Mac OS' do you?
 
soyuzavia
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 am

RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:11 am

€ € € € € € €

Got it

ALT + 0128

Go the €!  Smile
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Real Threat To The US..

Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 47):
Don't do much work with the latest Mac OS' do you?

No, never better... Just looking in once in a while...

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 48):
Got it ALT + 0128

Okay. You´re sure there´s no easier way?

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