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rg828
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Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:48 am

Hi guys,
My country has been plagued lately by a severe corruption scandal that practically involves everybody in the government - at least the great majority - including the president (I hate him.)

Its truly sad to see that despite the obviousness of the guilty parties, it seems nothing will come out of it and we will continue to keep the 'status quo,' maintain things the way they were, because the scandal is 'too big.'

The theory is that to keep our fragiled economy in control, we have to keep things quiet and not upset the markets.
Pathetic. Our population is blinded by the fact that an uneducated, unqualified and semi-illiterate former union leader (who became one after a machine tore his thumb off, thus never really worked shit) reached power through an all-for-nothing campaign using all forms of false advertising and promises.

I'm truly saddened by this because we will continue to remain a pathetic Banana Republic, in spite of our enormous potential, no matter what. Nothing will ever change, the rich will get richer, and the poor will become poorer, we will continue to see the same corrupt officials forever.

I dont think this country deserves this, but its reality and I dont believe I will see any change in my lifetime. Everything here is wrong and it feels hopeless.

Anyway, my question is, how does your respective country deal with corruption?
How does the population behave? How do you react? How do you fight it?

I've never been the political type, but the lies being told to the public is worrying and insulting me.

Any opinions would be welcome
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:21 am

We have had problems with corruption in the past and it is only now that laws are being enacted to combat it. It peaked around the 80s (so we are led to believe) and a former prime minister and leader of the largest party turned out to be the most corrupt politician of them all.

In the early 1990s, through an out-of-the blue incident concerning one of the country's top retailers, a prostitute and some cocaine in Florida, a remarkable story unravelled, detailing millions of pounds winding their way into the prime minister's back pocket via his political cronies.

A tribunal was set up to investigate what exactly happened, and one tribunal led to another, and another and another, all of which are still going on. This had the effect (apart from lining barristers' and lawyers' pockets with millions) of lifting the lid on a whole can of worms which the ordinary public were blissfully unaware of.

Two former politicians (not the PM - he managed to escape through ill health and a faux pas by a rival politician) ended up serving mild prison sentences, but their reputation was in tatters, as was that of several others implicated in the various scandals.

The effect of all that now is that EVERY politician now knows that the days of back-handers and brown paper envelopes are a thing of the past, and any dodgy dealings, from illegal offshore accounts to the slightest back-hander will more-than-likely come back to haunt them.

Things have improved, but I doubt if corruption has been elimnated. People are inventive when it comes to scams, and I have no doubt that other scandals will emerge in the future, though I doubt if they will be anything like the ones exposed in the last ten years.

[Edited 2005-08-18 01:25:14]
 
LHMark
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:42 am

Braybuddy, while I was over there the Irish headlines were screaming about corruption within the Gardai. Have they sorted that mess out?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
looneytoon
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:01 am

Corruption? That word is not known here in Paraguay  Wink

Unfortunately, Paraguay ranks number 3 in world corruption. I have no idea how this is counted, but I saw it on a chart once. It's funny how money just happens to dissappear?
LooneyToon
 
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rg828
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:41 am

Braybuddy,

Thanks for you response.

It is amazing how similar 'your' scandal is with the one happening in Brazil right now. Seems the only difference is the absence of drug trafficking! However there is prostitution and money-laundering involved.

Here, what galvanized it all was hidden-video footage of a postal office official pocketing money in the name of a congressman. The congressman in turn gave detailed accounts of corruption in congress involving the president's political party that in effect showed that they were distributing luggages of money to the smaller parties in return for congressional support concerning every government intiative. Its ballooned into something so disgusting, so dirty and so repulsive that in effect has every politician involved. There are congressional tribunals investigating everything, but they basically are investigating themselves so one can see how it can - and may - end up. Nowhere. Everybody has something to hide. Impeachment proceedings are being considered but without the support of the population it may just backfire.
The vast majority of the population is very ignorant, very dumb. They voted for this president because of his past (poor origins, etc.) and refuse to believe that he is in fact just like every politician before him - corrupt. And after promising everything to everybody during his campaign, it so happens that he has condoned worst behaviour than past governments. Really shameful.

What dissapoints me is that even though I always hated his party and himself, I really thought corruption of this scale was a thing of the past, and here we are walking backwards. Lying in public is becoming condonable, we are being treated as stupid spectators, everything is being done to hush everything.
No one will admit change in the political system, honest politicians have no balls to mobilize change, and yet the president plays the innocent victim pretending he has no involvement, and continues to promote Brazil as a respectable country worthy of foreign investment. In effect he believes we have become part of the 1st world just because he reached power, blissfully unaware of this country's social plight.

Incredibly enough, he believes reelection is possible. And i believe its possible because as a whole the Brazilian population is so ignorant and so dumb as to believe his poor humble origins prevent him from being corrupt. It really breaks my heart that a rich country like ours seems to be getting poorer and poorer with jerks like that in power.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
senorcarnival
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:09 am

Don't forget to mention to our international audience that voting is mandatory between the ages of 18-(is it 60 or 70?) Voting is optional at 16 and 17 and after you're old and stuff. In the poorest states in the Northeast there are always scores of uneducated farmers (who are uneducated because they were forced to quit school before even finishing middle school to help out their family make ends meet) willing to vote for this "nice" candidate for a pair of shoes, a month's worth of groceries, etc.
It's sad to see that the leftist government who fought so vehemently to get elected turned out to be corrupt themselves. It serves right to the ones who thought that just because of this shift of power to a leftist movement, things would be all better. So what to do now that the lefties are also corrupt and shiftless?
Oh no, she's getting impatient! Take a stab at it!
 
Mexicana757
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:23 am

You should come to Chicago, that word is the favorite of the news media at the moment.
 
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rg828
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting Senorcarnival (Reply 5):
It's sad to see that the leftist government who fought so vehemently to get elected turned out to be corrupt themselves.

I am proud to say that they never fooled me, ever since that bearded frog of a president was a candidate I always smelled something foul in that party of his. I felt his reign would be tumultuous, I hope he falls in disgrace. Soon.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 6):
You should come to Chicago, that word is the
favorite of the news media at the moment.

That may be, but there if you're guilty you get time. Here if you're guilty you get a slap on the wrist.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:55 pm

Corruption in the USA? Naaaawwwww....no way, couldn't be. We're the beacon of freedom here.  Yeah sure

1. City of Chicago...see Mayor Richard M. Daley..he can fill you in..

2. State of Washington...election for Governor, November 2004. Dino Rossi got fucked over by the corrupt Democratic (cough, gag, choke) party in the state.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:03 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 8):
. City of Chicago...see Mayor Richard M. Daley..he can fill you in..

Try the whole freakin' state of Illinois...from George Ryan now lookin' at time in the cooler, to Rowdy Rod "Daley Puppet" Blagojavich's daddy in law shooting his mouth off during a public tiff and attracting unwanted attention from the feds to Roddy.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
MrChips
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:08 pm

Canada is no better than any other nation in terms of corruption.

I mean, look at the Liberals - it seems like there is some sort of sordid corruption scandal cropping up every week.

And as for you "high and mighty" Conservatives, get off your horses. If the Conservatives get elected, nothing will change...there is simply too much bureaucratic inertia in Ottawa for anyone to overcome.
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mrniji
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:47 pm

Quoting RG828 (Thread starter):
Anyway, my question is, how does your respective country deal with corruption?
How does the population behave? How do you react? How do you fight it?

It's bad here and exists on every level and has ruined and does ruin a lot. Compared to other countries, you don't have to "bribe to survive"  Wink - when I went to Kenya and Cameroon, I was shocked about how corruption can be. And horror stories of Nigeria and Bangladesh make me think again that India is "comparatively decent"

The good thing is that this country has a law that works. Unfortunately, many people are not aware of these laws (not their fault) and are not in a position to have the capacity to go against. The media (investigative journalism) is doing its campaigns against. But unfortunately, there is just too much of it! But there have been many success stories, too. And there are some pioneers (unfortunately, namy of these people don't reach the positions they deserve, but rather a chunk of some harakiri politicians exists), who work against, and who register cases where people try to bribe them



Corruption, on the other side, is often a process where TWO sides are involved.. the briber and the bribed. It often happens that the former is the one who initiates the process (no excuse for the bribed to accept). This is very particular in India: People know they can breach the law and get away cheaply - they have advantages through these procedures. This indeed PISSES ME OFF the MOST!

I for instance have only once been asked for a bribe (and this was 7 yrs ago). It also depends upon how you act. If someone asks me for a bribe today, he/she will get a lesson thought. The good thing here in India is: I won't have to go to jail for going against the state, and I do have the chance of legally acting against. If the latter was hindred by obstacles, one call to the media  Smile , and challo!

The extent of corruption also reflects the bad income situation of some people (again, to excuse for it per se). All this I have written about India is no excuse for the situation and does not conceal that corruption is EXTREMELY BAD here (in absolute terms). On the other side, I am noting with content that remedies work in cases and put precedents for the future and have a "discouraging effect" on other penetrators. Our Prime Minister is great! He is one of the only person whom I would sign a paper for, with the text: "Corruption-free"!

When I lived in Germany, I thought that corruption is not that bad. But there, things happen very badly on different levels (Millions of Euros). The old"-chancellor" Kohl is suspected to be involved, among many others.. cases were registered in Bavaria against the ruling party, and in other states.. but it is not that apparent.

Hope this all makes sense. But please be aware that these are only MY observations. It is always interesting to have this backed/rejected by others so you have a more comprehensive image
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
1aMLA
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:31 pm

Ermmmmmmmmmmmmm......... every politician in the world, bar none.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:15 pm

 
mrniji
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:48 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 13):
This might help guys:

The problem of transparency is the way the collect data. I.e. asking for INVESTORS perception (and not the common man and some sectors of politics, "outbound corruption" etc). Investors who offer bribes and benefit from them indirectly, would say VERY GOOD! Good you gave the reference though.

No distinction between "gifts" and corruption (the latter is not an imagination of me but heavily discussed in economic literature and cultural theorists)

Though TI is OK with their work, I would be a little careful with their reference.

I forgot to mention b4 that there is a big difference to offering a bribe and being asked for a bribe
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
AM744
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 11):
Corruption, on the other side, is often a process where TWO sides are involved.. the briber and the bribed. It often happens that the former is the one who initiates the process (no excuse for the bribed to accept).

This certainly happens, but in extremely corrupt systems (like Mexico), if you choose to pay your transit ticket instead of fixing it via "mordida" (literally "bite" but means bribe) you will find yourself in endless trouble when trying to renew your license, for instance, even if you had timely payed said ticket. The system itself encourages corruption. But it's not this kind of corruption that causes the most damage, it's this kind of big shot corruption:

1.- Federal authorities that tolerate/team up with international drug dealing organizations causing great inestability in both borders and all across the country.
2.- Active cops or ex-cops leading or "working" in kidnapping gangs/drug dealing. (Mexico is now #1 in kindappings in the world)
3.- Federal customs authorities allowing free entrance to tons and tons of all kind of Asian crap goods/ South American drugs
4.- Local authorities that tolerate/team up with "organizations" of street dealers of said goods. (49% of Mexico City's PIB is generated by underground economy).
5.- Local authorities that tolerate/team up with cab and urban transport organizations which provide dismal service with no security measures at all. (hundreds of deaths each year because of this)


These five point are really messing up the whole country.
 
erikwilliam
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting RG828 (Thread starter):
plagued lately

and by lately he means 400 years.

Quoting LooneyToon (Reply 3):
Paraguay ranks number 3 in world corruption.

any guess on nº1  scratchchin 
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rossbaku
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:40 am

I'd like to write about a certain country, but for fear of it falling upon thr wrong eyes and finding myself banned from it, I won't post about it, all I can say is that it is unbelievably corrupt: the police just pull you over for driving "a bit too far to the left" and ask for money.

RossBaku  worried 
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting LHMark (Reply 2):
Braybuddy, while I was over there the Irish headlines were screaming about corruption within the Gardai. Have they sorted that mess out?

That case concerned a division of the Gardai, in Donegal, which is a remote part of the country. Remote enough not to have a spotlight shone on it, until a mysterious death of a well-known local on a backroad at night. The cops tried to pin it on a local bar/nightclub owner when nothing suggested it was more than a hit-and-run accident. In the subsequent investigation and completely separate to that, it was discovered that some cops were planting illegal weapons and subsequently "finding" them to boost their promotion prospects. A couple of cops have been suspended and that's probably as far as it will go, but at least it should have the effect of nipping in the bud any such antics in future. For donkey's years a lot went on in this country which was shrouded in a cloak of secrecy and people knew they'd get away with it. (I won't even start on the topic of child sexual abuse by clerics.) That is no longer the case, and from the prime minister down to the lowest civil servant knows that anything dodgy they might do is liable to be plastered over the front page of the tabloids at some stage.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but anyone up to anything dodgy will have to cover their tracks VERY well.

Quoting RG828 (Reply 4):
The vast majority of the population is very ignorant, very dumb. They voted for this president because of his past (poor origins, etc.) and refuse to believe that he is in fact just like every politician before him - corrupt. And after promising everything to everybody during his campaign, it so happens that he has condoned worst behaviour than past governments. Really shameful.

Interesting post, RG828. I wasn't aware of the scale of corruption in Brazil, but then I'm not surprised. Where there are politicians, there's bound to be corruption.

Just like Brazil, when the scandals about our former PM (Charles Haughey) broke, there were people, usually from the lower end of the social scale, who refused to believe them. Again, like your president, he came from very humble origins. Says a lot about people really, doesn't it?

[Edited 2005-08-19 01:36:08]
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:59 am

Well, Corruption in Argentina is always present. It goes from the cop that stops you for speeding (with 10 pesos you can go) to the top government officials. Most are aware of what Menem & co. did in this country  Sad

Currently, there is not that much talk about corruption with the current govt', but once K is gone, I'm sure things will arise. The worst of all is that all the names that have been inmersed in corruption scandals are still around: Duhalde, menem, Cavallo, etc.
It is, basically, a never ending story here.
regards
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
soups
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting Rossbaku (Reply 17):
I'd like to write about a certain country, but for fear of it falling upon thr wrong eyes and finding myself banned from it, I won't post about it, all I can say is that it is unbelievably corrupt: the police just pull you over for driving "a bit too far to the left" and ask for money.

sounds like Nigeria to me
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 20):
Quoting Rossbaku (Reply 17):
I'd like to write about a certain country, but for fear of it falling upon thr wrong eyes and finding myself banned from it, I won't post about it, all I can say is that it is unbelievably corrupt: the police just pull you over for driving "a bit too far to the left" and ask for money.

sounds like Nigeria to me

If it is Nigeria, then the police don't pull you for any reason at all, they just stop you and directly ask for money, sometimes nicely, sometimes not. Nigeria is the country where I have seen more corruption, it was amazing. But I enjoyed my stay there nonetheless  Smile
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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rg828
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting Rossbaku (Reply 17):
I'd like to write about a certain country, but for fear of it falling upon thr wrong eyes and finding myself banned from it, I won't post about it, all I can say is that it is unbelievably corrupt: the police just pull you over for driving "a bit too far to the left" and ask for money.

I've also lived in countries that are probably worse than here, but as a Brazilian I've always believed Brazil could take the next step up and make corruption just a minor annoyance in a well-balanced, prosperous and cultured society.

Evidently not. It is only getting bigger and bigger, and those who profit from it are not only getting away with it - they are making sure it stays.

Oh well, guess I'll have to wait till my next lifetime!
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
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rg828
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 18):
Just like Brazil, when the scandals about our former PM (Charles Haughey) broke, there were people, usually from the lower end of the social scale, who refused to believe them. Again, like your president, he came from very humble origins. Says a lot about people really, doesn't it?

It very true, people are thinking "this guy was so poor he would'nt know the first thing about being a cheat and a liar."

Worse still, to make a point of his modest beginnings and 'innocence,' in speeches to the masses he falls into tears remembering his illiterate parents, the struggle, etc.

Oh the drama! And people buy it. Incredible.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
Currently, there is not that much talk about corruption with the current govt', but once K is gone, I'm sure things will arise. The worst of all is that all the names that have been inmersed in corruption scandals are still around: Duhalde, menem, Cavallo, etc.
It is, basically, a never ending story here.

And let's not forget about Ricardo Jaime, Cavalieri and LAN... Big grin


Cheers! wave 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 24):
And let's not forget about Ricardo Jaime, Cavalieri and LAN...

I was waiting for that Big grin
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
AR1300
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
with 10 pesos you can go

They ripped you off!!!!  Wink A 5 will do the job too...

Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:29 am

Here its Bad.
Corruption Everywhere.
regds
MEL
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Banco
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:44 am

I think we're quite lucky here.

Politics remains fairly free of corruption, and when we do have a scandal, it's usually somewhat low level in comparison to most countries. Certainly, France tends to look on in amazement when a politician here is forced to resign over what would be a trifling issue there. It's a curious thing. The media will often gnash their teeth over something when much of the world would kill to have the same standards in public life. Local government is where much of it goes on, but even there it is relatively rare.

The police force is remarkably corruption-free too. If you tried to bribe a police officer it's a virtual certainty you'd be told once they didn't see it (i.e. shut up and don't be so stupid), and if you tried again you'd be in the cells. It does happen occasionally, but it's extremely rare - and when it does the police officer tends to get a heavy sentence.

It's hard to see it as much more than a peculiar accident of history, but there we are.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
rossbaku
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 20):
sounds like Nigeria to me



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 21):
If it is Nigeria, then the police don't pull you for any reason at all, they just stop you and directly ask for money, sometimes nicely, sometimes not. Nigeria is the country where I have seen more corruption, it was amazing. But I enjoyed my stay there nonetheless



Quoting RG828 (Reply 22):
I've also lived in countries that are probably worse than here

Guys: It isn't in Africa.

RossBaku  worried 
 
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rg828
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Rossbaku (Reply 29):
Guys: It isn't in Africa.

Is it related to your username perhaps, or whereabouts?

 scratchchin 
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
NWAFA
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:31 am

You bet we do, its called Republicans and George Bush!
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ltbewr
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:11 am

To me in the USA, the greatest corruption problem isn't so much the passing of money as birbes to bureaucrats, but that which is legal per our Constitution, court decisions and our history to a large extent - our method of financing political campaigns. The huge need for money to run for office from the local level to President sucks up Billions a year, usually from the rich whom want to keep more of their money from the government, or to get their way as to their property and investments and are effectively bribing politicans to pass laws or distribute money from government to their advantage. While some bones are thrown to the middle class and poor to get their votes, once the elections are over, far too often most politicans at all levels do the bidding of their rich contributors.
I would note that in the indexs of corruption, the USA does very well, often better than even some Western European countries, but really doesn't take into account of our growing campaign contribution influence-corruption issue. We also have strong laws against our companies (including Boeing for example) from using bribery in other countries to influence purchases of our goods, while many other countries have no such restrictions.
 
flydubai
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:24 am

Quoting Rossbaku (Reply 29):
Guys: It isn't in Africa.

It's Uzbekistan

But keep quiet about it because he doesn't want to be banned!  shhh 

Hamzah
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
Certainly, France tends to look on in amazement when a politician here is forced to resign over what would be a trifling issue there.

Not only France, Banco! I have often remarked to people that, if a politician or company executive gets caught with their trousers down, in America they are immediately fired; in the UK they immediately resign and in Ireland they get to retire in their own good time with a nice golden handshake.

[Edited 2005-08-20 23:32:27]
 
eilennaei
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:18 pm

Many of the low-corruption countries have a significant Protestant majority. Corruption within the then (Catholic) Church was one of the reasons behind the Reformation. Luther also had this idea that no middlemen and having "the right connections" would be needed in spiritual affairs. Could be significant, or not.

http://www.transparency.org/surveys/...nld/barometer_report_8_12_2004.pdf

(see the table on p. 9)
 
mrniji
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RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:38 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 35):
Many of the low-corruption countries have a significant Protestant majority. Corruption within the then (Catholic) Church was one of the reasons behind the Reformation. Luther also had this idea that no middlemen and having "the right connections" would be needed in spiritual affairs. Could be significant, or not.

Definitely NOT. Even if a regression is around 0.5 in significance, you need to do a content analysis (statistics is not enough) - and a content analysis will be virtually impossible (level of faith, involvement ... ). The result hence will be that no SIGNIFICANT causal relationship (neither positive nor negative) can be determined
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:47 pm

Quoting Rossbaku (Reply 17):
the police just pull you over for driving "a bit too far to the left" and ask for money

Something to be proud of; never try to offer money in Chile to a police man if you get : certain detention.
Believe it or not, Police was voted the most respected public institution in Chile last year, How many countries can say that?. Do we have corruption? of course we must, but thanks God our situation is clearly very good, and we keep paying taxes, respecting the law and electing reasonable decent politicians, with a president with over 60% of public approval after 6 years in the government...

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 24):
And let's not forget about Ricardo Jaime, Cavalieri and LAN...

For what is posted above, I see you just can't see how different some things are in Chile. For your lack of perspective, for being LAN the center of your universe, I forgive you...

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:58 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 37):
Something to be proud of; never try to offer money in Chile to a police man if you get : certain detention.
Believe it or not, Police was voted the most respected public institution in Chile last year

That's the first thing they told me before visiting santiago the first time. Don't attempt to bribe the carabineros! Police honesty is something we could really use over here  Sad
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 36):
content analysis (statistics is not enough) - and a content analysis will be virtually impossible (level of faith, involvement

I was not thinking of the religion from the spiritual point of view, but from what effect the religion might have on the culture. Corruption is also largely a cultural phenomenon. Interestingly, on the report I mentioned, the three adjacent Baltic states Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were evaluated, two out of three were significantly more corrupt, and the two are, as it happens, for a good part also Catholic, and the one predominantly Lutheran.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:39 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 37):
For what is posted above, I see you just can't see how different some things are in Chile. For your lack of perspective, for being LAN the center of your universe, I forgive you...

hahah, I don't need your forgiveness Arcano. LAN is certainly not the center of my universe, AR is. And everything that this government and LAN did to harm AR deserves to be publically denounced as Mrs. Carrio's party is doing, and that's why the IGJ (Inspección General de Justicia) initiated an investigation on that ghost company you like to call LAN Argentina. And there's due process to those ministers and secretaries that approved the entrance of LAN without bidding for LAFSA. That is labeled as public funding embezzlement, and neglect to the duties of public servant.

As for Chile being a clean country, I can certainly tell it is but not as clean and heavenly as you post it is. I can certainly find a crook inside Chile... in fact, I've dealt with many. (and so did my father).

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 39):
I was not thinking of the religion from the spiritual point of view, but from what effect the religion might have on the culture. Corruption is also largely a cultural phenomenon.

You do have a point. But

- if you say that corruption is a part of the culture, we have to count each possible transaction differently. The more alternative economic literature (as far as I know Mushtaq Khan from SOAS, a brilliant writer) for instance distinguishes between "gift" and corruption. Conventionally (i.e. Western), even gifts will be counted, in some cultures they won't be counted as corruption. Other countries "live" from Clientelism - everything within personal networks. The problem already starts with these examples

- what you say that religion has a big influence on the society. I agree 100 %. But it is virtually impossible to survey this. See for instance countries that are not defined as religious states (secular countries), countries with many religions, "nihilism" etc.. it is very difficult to draw up a significant relation and to do this on case to case basis.

Bottom line for me: I do not see any significant proof (while brainstorming) that protestant countries do better.. it is a "milkman-caltculation". With this approach, you can proof everything and the opposite. Take a protestant country (Finnland?), have a look at some figures and say: "Well, economic growth in protestan cultures is higher", or "countries that are protestant produce the most mobile phones"  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:47 pm

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 31):
You bet we do, its called Republicans and George Bush!

Nice to see that we already have a replacement for Randy. Boy that didn't take long.

I wonder how long it'll take for you to completely go off the deep end and get banned NWAFA.

 scratchchin 


Until then, have fun embarrassing your fellow liberals and giving them an even worse image than the other liberal extremists on here have.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:13 pm

Well, let's turn it the other way - name a predominantly Protestant country that has a significant rate of corruption.
I think the distinction between a "gift" and a more direct bribe is insignificant, the motive behind will have been the same.

In that clientilism there's the element of win-win, i.e. both parties potentially stand to gain and have a more equal footing. This type of corruption was especially common in the relatively advanced, but economically "planned" former Soviet bloc in the everyday life. "Find me a car engine, and I'll find you a record player and 10 latest western hits"

Did you btw read the report I mentioned already, or were you familiar with it already? There's quite a bit of actual survey in it.

The economic growth in the Protestant countries may have been higher just because the institutional corruption has been low. People around the world are getting to understand the waste of resources and inefficiency that corruption brings with it.

(Only insignificant numbers, mainly preproduction runs, of mobile phones are produced in my country currently. You should refile your previous info under 'China'.)

[Edited 2005-08-22 08:15:23]
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:25 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 43):
I think the distinction between a "gift" and a more direct bribe is insignificant, the motive behind will have been the same.

I disagree. For instance in Germany, you have a thumb role of "one block of chocolate" - everything upto that value is allowed to be accepted. Certain cultures are partiuclar for gifts. i.e. if a kid in India is born, they would bring some sweets to the registrar. Conventional theorists would see this as a bribe, and they isolate cultural variables from their regressions. If you have the time, have a look at some of Mushtaq Khan's work.. there is a lot of stuff written on the "gift" topic. And.. not every case of curruption can be weighted similarly: there is a difference between a bribe (whether or not it is a bribe) of US $ 1 or US $ 1 Million.. there is a difference whether you bribe to survive or bribe for having some other advantage.. is the bribe offered or demanded??

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 43):
The economic growth in the Protestant countries may have been higher just because the institutional corruption has been low. People around the world are getting to understand the waste of resources and inefficiency that corruption brings with it.

These explainations are in my eyes useless. Let's take the following example: you have a data set, provided by the World Bank, of lets say 2000 cases. Now, you have 5 economists having seven different results. It depends how you regress your data, how you compute the regression equation, what data you use and - more importantly - what data you omit.. does the data covariate? Believe me, you can prove everything and the opposite, if you want. Then proving in social sciences (and economics is, against popular perceptions, a HARDCORE social scoence) is impossible. You can validate or reject a theses. The more often it becomes validated, the more convincing it is.. but it can always be rejected again. There is NO MONOCAUSAL explaination possible. Hence, the conclusion you draw up is highly motivated by personal perceptions. Btw. Karl Poper's contribution within the German Positivism debate (with Adorno et al) gives an excellent survey about how to deal with all these attempts to eternally prove phenomenons in society that are NOT overall valid.

Nice debate btw!  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:12 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 44):
if a kid in India is born, they would bring some sweets to the registrar.

Ok, I accept that one as a gift, a cultural token. The child should I think be taken into the register the same speed anyway, even without the sweets.
On the matter of gifts in general, I stress the reciprocality that's present in all social giving and taking.
This we do not see in corruption, which sets one-sided demands and misuses a position of authority or a controlling position.

I'm not saying there's a monocausal explanation for anything, but if there were no dependencies, evident or hidden, the social sciences and much of the economics would just fail. (Might they have, indeed?) I'm reading into what you say that it is the poor economic performance that is causing corruption. This seems intuitively true, but I'd like to stir up and turn the causality the other way round -- it could also be it's the low corruption that is making wealth. One could perhaps cite Singapore here as well.

Thank you, I'm wishing everyone courage in fighting corruption.



[Edited 2005-08-22 12:38:23]
 
Ibhayi
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:23 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:14 pm

I live in South Africa, need I say more?
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:18 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 45):
This seems intuitively true, but I'd like to stir up and turn the causality the other way round -- it could also be that the low corruption that is making wealth. One could perhaps cite Singapore here as well.

Maybe we should talk about correlations and not causal relationships - that might be an approach. Since you are mentioning Singapore: we could even claim that the low level of democracy is evident for a low level of corruption! Well, we have already identified so many different factors - and the one who can regress them in a proper relationship and "solve" the problems of the society deserves the "Alternative Nobelprice for Economics"! Structural analysis are very tough and often impossible to execute..!

Have a good one, MrNiji
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:40 am

According to nation master:

25 most corrupt:

Amount
1. Bangladesh 8.7
2. Nigeria 8.6
3. Haiti 8.5
4. Burma 8.4
5. Paraguay 8.4
6. Azerbaijan 8.2
7. Cameroon 8.2
8. Tajikistan 8.2
9. Angola 8.2
10. Georgia 8.2
11. Indonesia 8.1
12. Kenya 8.1
13. Papua New Guinea 7.9
14. Kyrgyzstan 7.9
15. Libya 7.9
16. Iraq 7.8
17. Congo, Republic of the 7.8
18. Ecuador 7.8
19. Sierra Leone 7.8
20. Uganda 7.8
21. Bolivia 7.7
22. Ukraine 7.7
23. Zimbabwe 7.7
24. Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 7.7
25. Sudan 7.7


25 less corrupt (Finland the less corrupt ranked)

105. Oman 3.7
106. Portugal 3.4
107. France 3.1
108. Spain 3.1
109. Japan 3
110. Israel 3
111. Chile 2.6
112. United States 2.5
113. Ireland 2.5
114. Belgium 2.4
115. Germany 2.3
116. Hong Kong 2
117. Austria 2
118. United Kingdom 1.3
119. Canada 1.3
120. Luxembourg 1.3
121. Switzerland 1.2
122. Australia 1.2
123. Norway 1.2
124. Netherlands 1.1
125. Sweden 0.7
126. Singapore 0.6
127. New Zealand 0.5
128. Denmark 0.5
129. Iceland 0.4
130. Finland
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Corruption In Your Country

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 48):
1. Bangladesh 8.7
2. Nigeria 8.6

It again depends on the nature of the bribe how you interpret this: do you have to bribe for surviving, or to have own advantages..?

I have been to neither of both countries 9so careful with my assessmemt): but from what I have hearn, Nigeria's "bribe system" is just far worse!
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)

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