qr332
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Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:41 am

I am currently in the middle of reading Jean Sasson's "Princess", and the book is unbelievable... it displays horrible details of how women in Saudi Arabia are treated and how bad their lives are, and I recommend it to everybody.

Although I was aware how messed up Saudi society is, I never imagined it was this bad. The book shows details of how Saudi women live that no person could imagine, and it is truly sadenning and depressing to read.

To make some details clear of how bad life is for Saudi women, I will post some of the stories in the book.

The one that gripped me the most was one of how a Saudi merchant's daughter was stoned to death for supposedly comitting adultry. The horrible truth of this case is that the girl (14 IIRC) was at home while her parents were in Europe, and her brother was having a party were the booze and the drugs were plenty. She couldn't sleep because of the noise, so she went downstairs in her nightgown and without revealing herself, shouted for them to lower the volume. Next thing she knew, the boys at this party came out of the room and they were so stoned and drunk that they assulted her. They started by ripping off her night gown, and although she was screaming who she was, none of them seemed to absorb it. She was raped by the scum, and by the time the third boy started raping her she became unconcious. Her brother was in the toilet and unaware of what was happening to his sister, and by the time they realised who she was, all had fled. The household's maids and drivers rushed her to the hospital, where she was treated, but the Saudi Motawaa' (religious fanatical police) started investigating. The boys gave a story where they said the girl came on to them and started asking for them to have sex with her, saying that she was greatly interested in how it felt. The boys' story was believed, and her father and the Motawaa' agreed to punsih her in the worst way possible: public stoning. The injustice of this is amazing... the girl is attacked and raped, goes to hospital for it, and yet the boys are still believed simply because they are males.

A second thing that shocked me in the book was the description of how even today, it is common for women to be circumcised, and have their clitirois and entire external genitilia removed... just to make sure that they can never enjoy sex as their partner does.

There are many, many things I can go on about, including stories of maids desperate for money brought from the Philippenes, just to pleasure the males of the household, and them being raped continously and nothing being done about it. The book also describes how it is common for girls to be married between 14 and 16, and how if a woman gets sick or does not produce children, she is instantly divorced and a new wife is brought in to concieve children.

The things in the book are horrible to read and imagine, but at the same time they are enlightening as to how messed up that country really is. As a result of reading this book, I now completley understand why us Arabs have such horrible reputations around the world; if people see Saudis are like this they will automatically assume all Arabs are.

Your thoughts?

[Edited 2005-08-26 00:43:51]
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbelivable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:44 am

I cant stand Saudi Arabia. I have heard several of these kind of stories in the past. Saudi Arabia is possibly the worst country in the world.

-Delta767300ER
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:51 am

I'll be in Dubai next summer for a few days, I'll see for myself.
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B744F
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:53 am

Nonsense, they are freedom and democracy loving peoples, otherwise they would be part of the axis of evil, right???
 
Sabena332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:59 am

Unbelievable stories and really sad to see that they are still living in the stone age there (no pun intended). I pitty every Saudi women for living in a country with such a horrible discrimination!

Patrick
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qr332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 2):
I'll be in Dubai next summer for a few days, I'll see for myself.

Ummm, hate to break it to you, but Dubai is in the UAE, not Saudi Arabia, two very different countries.

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
Nonsense, they are freedom and democracy loving peoples, otherwise they would be part of the axis of evil, right???

Ha, Saudi Arabia is the biggest human rights abuser in the world yet it is America's best friend among all the Arab countries. Go figure.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:07 am

I would love to visit the UAE. Dubai looks absolutely stunning. Kuwait, Quatar, Bahrain, and Iran would be nice to visit also.

-Delta767300ER
 
Sabena332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 2):
I'll be in Dubai next summer for a few days, I'll see for myself.

You will totally enjoy Dubai, the UAE are a civilized country where women have rights.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Ha, Saudi Arabia is the biggest human rights abuser in the world yet it is America's best friend among all the Arab countries. Go figure.

Correct, the USA are Saudi Arabia's biggest import & export partner:

Exports - partners: US 19.3%, Japan 16.4%, South Korea 8.7%, China 5.8%, Singapore 4.5% (2004)

Imports - partners: US 9.3%, Germany 6.8%, Japan 6.7%, UK 5.4%, China 5% (2004)

Source: The CIA Factbook

Patrick
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:18 am

If the Brits wouldn't have found oil there in the 1930s, the Saudis would still live in tents and herd goats in a totally backward tribal society. Only the oil gave then so much power.

Jan
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MKEdude
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:25 am

Saudi Arabia is our bestest friend in the whole world, which means that they are free and democratic. I mean they drive Chevys and eat Big Macs so they must be OK.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
whitehatter
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:31 am

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/princess/

You would not believe the problems this BBC documentary caused, about a young Saudi princess being beheaded for adultery.

"When "Death of a Princess" was first broadcast in Great Britain in April 1980, the Saudi government's reaction to the film touched off a diplomatic firestorm that reportedly included threats to impose sanctions on British business interests in Saudi Arabia and to break formal ties with the United Kingdom. Amid the furor, the British Ambassador to Saudi Arabia was sent home."
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MaverickM11
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Ha, Saudi Arabia is the biggest human rights abuser in the world yet it is America's best friend among all the Arab countries.

What does this have to do with the time of day? Horrific tails of abuse occur everywhere in the Muslim world--remember the spate of "honor killings" in Britain?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Sabena332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
What does this have to do with the time of day? Horrific tails of abuse occur everywhere in the Muslim world--remember the spate of "honor killings" in Britain?

Such "honor killings" are also happening here in Germany among Turkish or Lebanese people, and actually does this have absolutely nothing to do with the situation in Saudi Arabia, there it is the government that is discriminating and killing women for totally absurd reasons, not a single person/family like in the case you described in your post! You just generalized all Muslims in your post above and that is totally ridiculous!

Switching on your brain - or reading the topic - before you let dance your fingers across the keyboard would actually help a lot to let the discussion stay factual and on topic.

Patrick

Edited for typos.

[Edited 2005-08-26 02:02:09]
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
jafa39
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 12):
Switching on your brain - or reading the topic - before you let dance your fingers across the keyboard would actually help a lot to let the discussion stay factual and on topic.

Hey Patrick! Watch the insults..remember the EK 380 thread debacle? you wouldn't listen and look what happened! Try oh please try not to make the mods look like a bunch of opinionated jackasses.

Jafa
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Sabena332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 13):
Hey Patrick! Watch the insults..remember the EK 380 thread debacle? you wouldn't listen and look what happened! Try oh please try not to make the mods look like a bunch of opinionated jackasses.

Why don't you simply post an on-topic reply with facts (about the topic under discussion)?

Patrick

[Edited 2005-08-26 02:14:09]
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dl021
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:26 am

Mods are not prevented from offering opinions, nor should they be. If the dude is deleting your posts simply because he doesn't like them or he's banning you for irritating him, then you've got a beef.

Other than that stick to the topic and stop trying to moderate the mods by open posting.

ON topic....there are no countries under Sharia where women have equal rights, and to my knowledge the only predominately muslim countries where women have equal rights are the ones with secular governments.

Saudi is not alone in it's allowing of poor treatment of women.
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zeekiel
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 1):
I cant stand Saudi Arabia. I have heard several of these kind of stories in the past. Saudi Arabia is possibly the worst country in the world.

I have to agree with you there mate.

I am repulsed by the stories that come out of there.

Bloody rapists, liars and murderers. They come wrapped in a blanket of religion and the drink of oil.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
What does this have to do with the time of day?

It has everything to do with the time of day.

Hint: Isn't the United States the champion of democracy and freedom?

Cheers

Zeekiel
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jetjack74
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):

Ha, Saudi Arabia is the biggest human rights abuser in the world yet it is America's best friend among all the Arab countries. Go figure.

That's debatable. I would characterise them as one of the biggest. Saudi Arabia is walking a very fine line between the hardline conservative Islamic style of gov't that appease the extremists outside of the big cities, such as Riyadh and Dhahran, with maintaining the balance of investments from the outside world. The Saudi Royal family is terrified of an Islamic Revolution, like one that diposed the Shah from Iran in 1979. They still hold on to these hardline, conservative islamic traditions, but whahabbism is the ever-increasing threat inside the kingdom. One of 2 things ar going to happen in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the extremists are either going to take control of the country and Saudi Arabia will retreat into a Iran-like theocracy. Or they will have to modernise and bring themselves into the 21st century, get rid of these brutal laws that are on the books. I don't know very much about Saudi Arabia, I haven't been there in many years, but only time will tell what will happen. Just my 2 Riyals.

[Edited 2005-08-26 02:40:35]
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Sabena332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Mods are not prevented from offering opinions, nor should they be. If the dude is deleting your posts simply because he doesn't like them or he's banning you for irritating him, then you've got a beef.

Thank you Ian! Seems that this guy likes more to complain and whine about deleted off-topic posts than to discuss about the actualy topic! I am glad that you posted this!

Patrick
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TUNisia
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
There are many, many things I can go on about, including stories of maids desperate for money brought from the Philippenes, just to pleasure the males of the household, and them being raped continously and nothing being done about it. The book also describes how it is common for girls to be married between 14 and 16, and how if a woman gets sick or does not produce children, she is instantly divorced and a new wife is brought in to concieve children.

I noticed this as well. While on holiday in the Middle East I frequently saw younger/middle-aged asian women (phillipino) caring for younger arab children. They looked tried, worn out, and some even bruised. Meanwhile the husbands are parading about pretending to be the perfect fathers.
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Sabena332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:02 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
That's debatable.

We are here to debate, aren't we.  Wink

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
I would characterise them as one of the biggest. Saudi Arabia is walking a very fine line between the hardline conservative Islamic style of gov't that appease the extremists outside of the big cities, such as Riyadh and Dhahran, with maintaining the balance of investments from the outside world.

I agree partly. Actually I would say that the extremists only act in Saudi Arabia's big cities to get attention, I think you will never see terrorist attacks in a small city there.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
The Saudi Royal family is terrified of an Islamic Revolution, like one that diposed the Shah from Iran in 1979. They still hold on to these hardline, conservative islamic traditions, but whahabbism is the ever-increasing threat inside the kingdom.

Isn't Wahhabism the most "conservative" form of the Islam? A friend, who's parents are Turks, but he is German, once told me that the Wahhabism Muslims ban everything which is "fun", such as music, movies, etc.

He told me that Saudi Arabia is actually a country that "real" Muslims laugh about because it is such utterly conservative, is that true?

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
One of 2 things ar going to happen in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the extremists are either going to take control of the country and Saudi Arabia will retreat into a Iran-like theocracy.

Sorry, but SA is already an Islamic theocracy which is much worse than Iran (what I heard from people who have been in both countries, I have only been to Iran, so I can't say anything about SA).

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
Or they will have to modernise and bring themselves into the 21st century, get rid of these brutal laws that are on the books.

I think they won't anytime soon, as long as they get their "oil money" they can do whatever they want with their people and nobody cares.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
don't know very much about Saudi Arabia, I haven't been there in many years, but only time will tell what will happen.

I appreciate and enjoyed your post very much, it added an opinion and facts to this discussion and it brought new stuff to discuss about to this topic!

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
Just my 2 Riyals.

Very much appreciated!

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
jafa39
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:29 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 14):
Why don't you simply post an on-topic reply with facts (about the topic under discussion)?

I will if you stop being rude to people, that way the post stays on topic.

Whilst on-topic, I think there are one or two countries that might contest the "worst human rights record" but the treatment of women in such a barbaric way tends to get people's blood racing quicker than abuses of other sectors of the human race. I am a bit of a pacifist but every time this topic comes up somewhere I start looking for an AK47.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 16):
It has everything to do with the time of day.

No it doesn't. The US is friendly to the Saudi government. The crazy religious zealotry comes from the Muslim clerics that have garotted the government.

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 16):
Hint: Isn't the United States the champion of democracy and freedom?

I know you're saying that passively agressively so why should I even bother answering this?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
searpqx
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
What does this have to do with the time of day? Horrific tails of abuse occur everywhere in the Muslim world--remember the spate of "honor killings" in Britain?

Because on the one hand we actively support the Saudi regime and on the other hand (now) cite Saddams brutality as one of the reasons we 'liberated' Iraq. It points up the hypocrisy of our policy in this region of the world.

The difference between the honor killings you site and the example in the thread starter is that the former were individuals, acting illegaly and condemed by the host country and the later is government policy, again, a government we support. So I'd say it has everything to do with the topic.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:32 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 23):
Because on the one hand we actively support the Saudi regime and on the other hand (now) cite Saddams brutality as one of the reasons we 'liberated' Iraq.

So what??? That doesn't change the fact that there's a clear and rampant culture of misogyny in the Muslim world. If we never went into Iraq, beating the shit out of women would still be standard policy in Saudi Arabia, killing your children because they winked at the wrong person would still be considered "honorable" in some circles, and suicide bombing would still be a righteous occupation. This thread has NOTHING to do with anything the US has done even though I know you all want to believe that Cheney is personally beating the crap out of women in Saudi Arabia. This is a Muslim problem and needs a Muslim solution. The Saudi rule of law is handed down from the Wahabis to a neutered monarchy--and they HATE the US...but thankfully they respect women  Yeah sure.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
zeekiel
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:58 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
I know you're saying that passively agressively so why should I even bother answering this?

You can tell that just by reading a small phrase. You are judgemental.  Yeah sure

Actually I wasn't. My point was more around the strategic yet fragile alliance that is the United States and Saudi Arabia. Strained by cultural and religious differences but allied in other more silent issues.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
No it doesn't. The US is friendly to the Saudi government. The crazy religious zealotry comes from the Muslim clerics that have garotted the government.

The Saudi government is a royal family. The royal family are supposed to be representative of the their peoples.

It doesn't matter whether they are or not, it is the fact the human rights violations are being committed in their nation and are turning a blind eye. This is either to court the weirdo Wahabbi vote and leave the status quo or they truely believe that it is fair punishment.

The fact that they are allowing these incidious fools to run unabated in their country is tantamount to condoning their acts. Otherwise there would have been something done about it.

If it is the case that the country is being run by these sadists overunning the government, then why on earth let a country like this deal actively in the international community? It should be shunned like Zimbabwe.

Cheers

Zeekiel
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blrsea
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:31 pm

Saudi Arabia doesn't allow practising of any non-islamic relegion in their country. You can be prosecuted if you hold any non-islamic relegious gathering in that country. I remember reading how a few christians from Pakistan were arrested for holding a mass in one of their homes.

Saudi Arabia promotes wahhabism by funding thousands of madrasas in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, India and other countries. They were the first to protest against alleged quran abuse in Guantanamo, but they themself confiscate all non-islamic relegious books at their airport and destroy it.

Don't forget that majority of the 9/11 perpetrators came from saudi arabia. The 7/7 attackers in London were trained at madrasas in pakistan funded by SA. SA also supplied billions of dollars of free oil to pakistan when it was under sanctions for nuclear proliferation. It is now pumping more money into Bangladesh and northern africa which it want to convert to mini-pakistans!!

Go figure!!
 
mrniji
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:35 pm

Can someone clarify which HR treaties Saudi Arabia has acceeded to? Probably the ICCPR (Civil and Political, 1st Generation), and ICESC (Economic, Social, Cultural).. as far as I know they de facto not acceeded tp the Women Rights' COnvention (tons of reservations)..

Though I hate to give blanket statements: I think something must happen in Saudi Arabia

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 2):
I'll be in Dubai next summer for a few days, I'll see for myself.

As it was pointed out, Dubai is a little different (and it is in a different country) ..  Wink - check the Emirates thread (not the airline but the country, it is an interesting read). What you will see inter alia is HOW HOT the girls there are - NO KIDDING! Burkhas make the most beautiful girls vanish

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 13):
Hey Patrick! Watch the insults..remember the EK 380 thread debacle? you wouldn't listen and look what happened! Try oh please try not to make the mods look like a bunch of opinionated jackasses.



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 21):
I will if you stop being rude to people, that way the post stays on topic.

Before attacking someone on anet (who is by the way a LOVELY person) you should rather start to critically assess whether your behavior meets the expectations and unspoken norms of your immediate enviroment.. Laws and other norms are also valid for you.. I especially refer to someone who plays big backpacker and explorer worldwide and tries to be a big cultural expert, but whose state of mind reflects that one of a village baboon  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
searpqx
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
This thread has NOTHING to do with anything the US has done even though I know you all want to believe that Cheney is personally beating the crap out of women in Saudi Arabia.

Not a soul on here has indicated that the way SA treats its women is in anyway because of the US. What has been pointed out is, that despite its absolutely abysmal human rights record, SA is a close US ally. Since the thread opener was about how women are treated in the kingdom, it's a pretty easy step to commenting on the fact that Washington somehow manages to turn a blind eye to it, while cuddling up with the country's rulers.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:27 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
One of 2 things ar going to happen in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the extremists are either going to take control of the country and Saudi Arabia will retreat into a Iran-like theocracy.

Saudi Arabia already is run by extremists, and those extremists are worse than those in Iran could ever be. Every state organ that Iran has, Saudi Arabia has too, and they are worse than their Iranian counterparts.

Iran does have some degree of freedom of religion. Christianity and Judaism are officially recognised alongside Islam as official religions. Saudi Arabia has no freedom of religion -- it is Islam or nothing.

In Iran women, whilst not enjoying full rights, enjoy more rights than they do in Saudi Arabia.

Whilst the clerical government is not open, Iran's presidential elections are quite free and fair. Iranian woman not only have the right to vote, but there are several females members of the Majlis -- the vice-president under Khatami was demale. In Saudi Arabia, there are no national elections, and the municipal elections which are held neither have female voters nor candidates.

Here is the human rights reports from the US State Department:

Iran
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41721.htm

Saudi Arabia
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41731.htm

Now compare the two for women's rights, down towards the bottom of each page.

The mere fact that the State Dept has much more to bitch about Iran, shows that Iran is actually much more open than Saudi Arabia will ever be under their regime.

Given the choice between living in Iran and Saudi Arabia, assuming that both countries were Sunni or Shi'a, I would put money on it, that women would prefer to live in Iran.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 2):
I'll be in Dubai next summer for a few days, I'll see for myself.


Yeah, have a great time in Dubai, Saudi Arabia  Wink

And about the stories: I was wondering why people were talking about freedom for women in Afghanistan but didnt say anything about Saudi Arabia. But for sure: I don't bite the hands who feed me (with oil).

[Edited 2005-08-26 14:42:58]
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qr332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
If the Brits wouldn't have found oil there in the 1930s, the Saudis would still live in tents and herd goats in a totally backward tribal society. Only the oil gave then so much power.

It is still a backward, half-assed tribal society, except the oil money means they can waste it on jets and 10 jaguars for 10 year old boys.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
What does this have to do with the time of day? Horrific tails of abuse occur everywhere in the Muslim world--remember the spate of "honor killings" in Britain?

Honor killings in Britain were a problem with the people, not the government. The issue in Saudi Arabia is that honor killings take place with the full concent of the government, whether the reasons are true or not. The thing you seem to have trouble understanding is how different Saudis are from the rest of the Arabs. When I read this book, I, as a Muslim and Arab, was shocked beyond belief. The honor killings in the rest of the Arab world are only committed by the most extreme members of society, and they are similar to the murders in the USA which happen unbelievably often because of jelousy, etc, except that these are religiously motivated. Saudi society is very different from the societies of the rest of the Muslim world, and they do not deserve to be called Muslim.

To explain why they do not deserve to be called Muslims, I will remind you of a few things: many of the motawaa' and the so-called religious Saudis regularly drink, do drugs, rape women, etc, yet they go back home and then preach as if they were God knows what. Arab society is much more advanced; in Jordan, women are treated much better, and they are miles ahead of Saudi Arabia; they are closer to the West than our Eastern neighborus. Same applies for most other countries, in Qatar, a woman is always held in higher regard than a man - you try messing with a girl in Qatar agaisnt her will, and see what will happen to you. Saudis are hated by most other Arabs - you should see how Jordanians feel about them.

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 12):
You just generalized all Muslims in your post above and that is totally ridiculous!

Maverick always uses this with Muslims, he has a superiority complexity which does not seem to go away.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
ON topic....there are no countries under Sharia where women have equal rights, and to my knowledge the only predominately muslim countries where women have equal rights are the ones with secular governments.

Saudi is not alone in it's allowing of poor treatment of women

But none are like Saudi Arabia. Qatari women have a huge amount of rights - they can vote, work in many fields, are allowed fair trials, despite the presence of Sharia courts. Saudi Arabia's problem does not lie in its courts - it lies in its uneducated people.

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 16):
Bloody rapists, liars and murderers. They come wrapped in a blanket of religion and the drink of oil.

Agree 100%. Read the book, that is just a sample. And these are the accounts of just one person.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 19):
I noticed this as well. While on holiday in the Middle East I frequently saw younger/middle-aged asian women (phillipino) caring for younger arab children. They looked tried, worn out, and some even bruised. Meanwhile the husbands are parading about pretending to be the perfect fathers.

In the Arab world, almost all households have an Eastern Asian maid. Even foreigners hire them. But, in Saudi they are unbelievably abused and nobody can protect their rights, while in the rest of the Arab world they are in much better shape (but in many places it is still appaling). The difference is if a maid is abused in say Jordan, she can go and complain at her embassy, and she is sent back to her country. In Saudi, they can't do shit.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
No it doesn't. The US is friendly to the Saudi government. The crazy religious zealotry comes from the Muslim clerics that have garotted the government.

No, it comes from the Saudi people and religious fanatics. The Saudi people are uneducated, and very backward. The US is freindly despite the Saudi government not trying to change this, and it being the most undemocratic, freedom hating regime in the Arab world.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
So what??? That doesn't change the fact that there's a clear and rampant culture of misogyny in the Muslim world. If we never went into Iraq, beating the shit out of women would still be standard policy in Saudi Arabia, killing your children because they winked at the wrong person would still be considered "honorable" in some circles, and suicide bombing would still be a righteous occupation. This thread has NOTHING to do with anything the US has done even though I know you all want to believe that Cheney is personally beating the crap out of women in Saudi Arabia. This is a Muslim problem and needs a Muslim solution. The Saudi rule of law is handed down from the Wahabis to a neutered monarchy--and they HATE the US...but thankfully they respect women

Read above. Where do most terrorists come from? Who are the most hated Arabs around the world? The worst Arab human rights abusers? This is not a Muslim problem, it is a SAUDI problem.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 26):
Saudi Arabia doesn't allow practising of any non-islamic relegion in their country. You can be prosecuted if you hold any non-islamic relegious gathering in that country. I remember reading how a few christians from Pakistan were arrested for holding a mass in one of their homes.

Again, very different from the Arab world - the nicest thing is that there is a church and a mosque near my apartment here in Jordan, so at times you can hear both the bells and the call to prayer at the same time. In Qatar, there are Koptic, Catholic and Orthodox churches (the former is a villa as there is a small Koptic community only, and the latter two hold their services in the American school).

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 27):
Dubai is a little different

A little? LOL!
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:08 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Quoting TUNisia (Reply 19):
I noticed this as well. While on holiday in the Middle East I frequently saw younger/middle-aged asian women (phillipino) caring for younger arab children. They looked tried, worn out, and some even bruised. Meanwhile the husbands are parading about pretending to be the perfect fathers.

In the Arab world, almost all households have an Eastern Asian maid. Even foreigners hire them. But, in Saudi they are unbelievably abused and nobody can protect their rights, while in the rest of the Arab world they are in much better shape (but in many places it is still appaling). The difference is if a maid is abused in say Jordan, she can go and complain at her embassy, and she is sent back to her country. In Saudi, they can't do shit.

What do you expect in a country where one generation ago slave owning was still legal (mainly slaves from Eastern Africa). They treat the Pinay and Sri Lankan maids the same way they treated their slaves.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
No it doesn't. The US is friendly to the Saudi government. The crazy religious zealotry comes from the Muslim clerics that have garotted the government.

No, it comes from the Saudi people and religious fanatics. The Saudi people are uneducated, and very backward. The US is freindly despite the Saudi government not trying to change this, and it being the most undemocratic, freedom hating regime in the Arab world.

While it might appear as if the King of Saudi Arabia is an absolutist ruler, he rules only with the consent of the tribal leaders, who are mostly uneducated, rural-feudalistic and ultra conservative.
They are who mostly supports Al Qaeda.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Maverick always uses this with Muslims, he has a superiority complexity which does not seem to go away.

And same person is travelling to Tunisia soon (a country with a Muslim Majority, as he might not know yet).
Visiting Tunisia In October (by MaverickM11 Aug 26 2005 in Non Aviation)

I am sure he will be a big embarrassment for us US-Americans there  Sad
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:44 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
This thread has NOTHING to do with anything the US has done

Maybe this thread has more to do with what the US has NOT done. Year in and year out, the US State Department puts Cuba on the list of states who sponsor terrorism (a move not entirely unwarranted but that is kept in place to placate the crucial Cuban-American vote in South Florida) but chooses to ignore the fact that the Saudi government is one of the biggest sponsors of the Wahabbi school of Islam, which created a suitable climate for the creation of Al-Qaeda and others.

As people have pointed out here, publicly wearing a cross or crucifix in Saudi Arabia is forbidden. Also, women who get caught driving are subject to getting the shit beaten out of them by religious police.

Yet the US -- under Republican and Democratic administrations -- has consistently fawned over the Saudis, showering them with AWACS aircraft, Big Macs and Starbucks coffee (with gender-segregated seating for your convenience).

If one of the Bush administration's flaccid reasons for going into Iraq was to supposedly restore democracy and remove a tyrant, why stop there? Hell, why not remove the House of Saud while you're at it?

Recall that Bush 41 made the "liberation" of Kuwait his mantra for starting Operation Desert Storm. Interestingly, though, Kuwaiti women did not secure the right to vote until very recently. If Desert Storm was about true "liberation," why didn't the US push the Kuwaitis to give women the right to vote?

It also bears mentioning that instead of staying in country and fighting against Saddam's invasion, the Emir of Kuwait chose to travel to the French Riviera and closely monitor the war on television.

Let's face it. If Saudi Arabia were not sitting on top of what it sits, it would be much easier for the US to shell out its sanctimonious rhetoric about human rights and democracy. But hey, in the words of Geraldo Rivera, money talks and bullshit walks...
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 28):
Not a soul on here has indicated that the way SA treats its women is in anyway because of the US.

That's the first thing everyone has defaulted to here!

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Honor killings in Britain were a problem with the people, not the government.

People who subscribe to a similar form of Islam that is ALSO the rule of law in Saudi Arabia....same script different cast.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
To explain why they do not deserve to be called Muslims,

They would disagree, and probably say that you (or moderate Muslims) are not Muslim and deserve to have their 'blood spilled and money taken'.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Maverick always uses this with Muslims, he has a superiority complexity which does not seem to go away.

When a government based on Islamic law is debating whether or not to give women rights...IN 2005...what the hell am I supposed to think?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
The Saudi people are uneducated, and very backward.

How come when I say the same thing I "have a superiority complex"?

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 33):
And same person is travelling to Tunisia soon (a country with a Muslim Majority, as he might not know yet).

There are Muslims in Tunisia? Get outta town!  Yeah sure I don't hate Muslims; in fact I have nothing against the religion, or its people. I think its leaders are absolute crap, and I think Islam is in a state of crisis. If this were ye.olde.airliners.net in the 1500s, I'd be railing against Christianity in much the same way--not because I hate the religion, or the people, but because the leaders were corrupt, violent, abusive people that destroyed and negatively impacted millions of lives.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
That's the first thing everyone has defaulted to here!

Show me . . .

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
How come when I say the same thing I "have a superiority complex"?

Because you're not saying the same thing. While everyone on this thread is in agreement that SA is a backward backwater of a country, with an oppressive and abusive power structure, you try and paint all Muslims with the same brush.

This thread was about the treatment of women in SA, and yes, it made a segue into how many find it amazing that such a country can be considered such a close ally of the US. Your very first post said all Muslims are like this. Based on similar comments in the past, I don't see you differentiating between Muslim people and Muslim rulers. . .
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Pyrex
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:45 am

Funny enough, Iraq was one of the countries in the region where women had the most rights (that is going down the toilet now, thanks to the religious extremist now in charge).

After North Korea I think Saudi Arabia must be the most repressive regime in the world (and possibly the most corrupt). Just because you call yourself a king doen't mean you are anything else than an evil dictator (with the possible exception of getting invited to royal weddings in certain european countries).
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qr332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
That's the first thing everyone has defaulted to here!

Not a single person has said it is America's fault! People have pointed out the double standards and hypocracy of supporting the Saudis, but not a single soul has said this has anything to do with the States. The problem is that the Saudis are still living in the 4th century, before anybody knew there were continents west of Europe.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
People who subscribe to a similar form of Islam that is ALSO the rule of law in Saudi Arabia....same script different cast.

Irrelevant. We are talking about a government, not ignorant fanatics who justice is served upon for their backward acts. Most Muslims are nowhere near the level Saudis are at, something you can't seem to grasp. Take it from a Muslim Arab living in the Arab world.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
They would disagree, and probably say that you (or moderate Muslims) are not Muslim and deserve to have their 'blood spilled and money taken'.

Of course they would, they would also want most Palestinian/Jordanian/etc women who are not veiled to be stoned and put to death for daring to regularly sit with men and not being confined to their home. It is a pathetic way of thinking, and it is confined to the Saudis, who, as I mentioned earlier, are the majority of fanatics and terrorists.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
When a government based on Islamic law is debating whether or not to give women rights...IN 2005...what the hell am I supposed to think?

If you were talking about the country Saudi Arabia, I would agree 100%. But, you always talk about the billions of Muslims as an entire group, and not about the Saudis. It is ONE government, every single other Muslim country has much more rights for its women.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
How come when I say the same thing I "have a superiority complex"?

Because you refer to Muslims as if they were all idiotic backward people! You do not talk about one group, you talk about all Muslims. I have not seen a SINGLE thread about Islam where you have not put down the religion or said some disgusting, racist comment.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Funny enough, Iraq was one of the countries in the region where women had the most rights (that is going down the toilet now, thanks to the religious extremist now in charge).

Ironic, isn't it? Iraq had a secular government previously, but today's government discarded the very few good features the old one had, and they are taking Iraq down a crazy path.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 38):
We are talking about a government, not ignorant fanatics who justice is served upon for their backward acts.

What's the difference? The same source is behind both the ignorant fanatics running the Saudi government and those committing crimes elsewhere.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 38):
every single other Muslim country has much more rights for its women.

...which are still much less than they have for men.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 38):
said some disgusting, racist comment.

....such as? All I've ever said is that there's a big, unprecedented problem in the Muslim world today.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 38):
Saudis, who, as I mentioned earlier, are the majority of fanatics and terrorists.

Morroccans were behind the Madrid bombings; Syrians, Iranians, Jordanians, Egyptians are blowing themselves up in Iraq everyday; Britons were behind the London bombings; Indonesians were behind the Bali bombing--if you think Saudi Arabia is the main problem, you are vastly underestimating the problem.
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 29):
Saudi Arabia already is run by extremists, and those extremists are worse than those in Iran could ever be. Every state organ that Iran has, Saudi Arabia has too, and they are worse than their Iranian counterparts

Well, I was comparing a future Saudi Arabia to the Iran after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, although, I don't believe the current Iranian government is really all that much different today.
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qr332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:17 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
What's the difference? The same source is behind both the ignorant fanatics running the Saudi government and those committing crimes elsewhere.

No, it isn't. Islam is not the source of these actions because it speaks against each and every one of those actions. The thing that they have in common is that they use the same twisted interpretation of Islam, one that most Muslims do not use.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
...which are still much less than they have for men.

But they can still lead good, normal lives. Also, it depends which country you are talking about. Qatar for example has a lot of equality for its women; the can do most things men can, including vote. Most Arab countries are like this - yes, they do not have the full freedoms men enjoy, but they still can lead perfectly normal, good lives, something Saudi women have never been able to enjoy.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
....such as? All I've ever said is that there's a big, unprecedented problem in the Muslim world today.

In this thread. In every other thread, you have made Muslims to look like monsters. For example, in 777236ER's thread about the American terrorist who was killed, you were the first person to bring up Islam, something unrelated to the thread. You regularly talk about the religion as a whole, and never in a good sense.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
Morroccans were behind the Madrid bombings; Syrians, Iranians, Jordanians, Egyptians are blowing themselves up in Iraq everyday; Britons were behind the London bombings; Indonesians were behind the Bali bombing--if you think Saudi Arabia is the main problem, you are vastly underestimating the problem.

The majority of terrorist organisations are still commanded and carried out by Saudis. 9/11 anyone? The nationalities you listed above are mostly true, but as very small minoroties. Egyptians are only active as terrorists in their own country, Jordanians are not blowing themselves up, although the leader of the insurgents is Jordanian. The overwhelming majority of insurgents are Iraqis. Saudi Arabia is the main problem, as the people of other nationalities are follownig the teachings of the Saudi fanatic leaders.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 41):
No, it isn't. Islam is not the source of these actions because it speaks against each and every one of those actions.

It isn't according to YOU; if you ask THEM they will say it's 100% real Islam.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 41):
But they can still lead good, normal lives

 Yeah sure

Quoting QR332 (Reply 41):
The nationalities you listed above are mostly true, but as very small minoroties.

All in the name of Islam...regardless of whether it's the "real" Islam or not. And this "small minority" is wreaking havoc like no other "small minority" has in a long time.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 41):
For example, in 777236ER's thread about the American terrorist who was killed, you were the first person to bring up Islam, something unrelated to the thread

It was as relative as America's support for Saudi Arabia is in this thread. Someone was trying to make the point that all groups have crazy minorities to which I responded that the Muslim world has everyone else beat right now. It's not a condemnation on Islam or Muslims, but merely stating the fact that the vast majority of terrorists in the 21st century are acting in the name of Islam, period. Warped Islam? Sure. Minority? Yes. Not real Muslims? They disagree. A major concern? Absolutely.
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qr332
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
It isn't according to YOU; if you ask THEM they will say it's 100% real Islam.

Thats the whole point! They twist the words of the prophet and the Quran to suit their needs! What the hell is your point?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
 Yeah sure

You are an American living in America, what the hell do you know?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
All in the name of Islam...regardless of whether it's the "real" Islam or not. And this "small minority" is wreaking havoc like no other "small minority" has in a long time.

So you can blame all of Islam for this? That justifies it? The "minority" of idiotic Americans have made your country seem like its a country of nothing more than idiots, can I generalise about that too?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
It was as relative as America's support for Saudi Arabia is in this thread. Someone was trying to make the point that all groups have crazy minorities to which I responded that the Muslim world has everyone else beat right now. It's not a condemnation on Islam or Muslims, but merely stating the fact that the vast majority of terrorists in the 21st century are acting in the name of Islam, period. Warped Islam? Sure. Minority? Yes. Not real Muslims? They disagree. A major concern? Absolutely.

They disagree, but that doesn't make it right. Are most terrorists Muslims? Yes. Are most Muslims terrorists? No. Case closed. Beause of this, you can't generalise all Muslims.
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RE: Women In Saudi Arabia... Unbeleviable Stories

Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
So you can blame all of Islam for this?

No. I've never blamed Islam.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
The "minority" of idiotic Americans have made your country seem like its a country of nothing more than idiots, can I generalise about that too?

It's becoming clearer that you are incapable of understanding my point.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
Beause of this, you can't generalise all Muslims.

I've never generalised all Muslims--you are having a different conversation and again are missing my point.
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