Falcon84
Topic Author
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Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:30 am

This who thing is looking more and more like one contiuous bureaucratic nightmare.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/katrina.charleston/index.html

Inexcusable.
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:35 am

Somebody fucked up. This is like 4th grade geography. Gawd.



 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
halls120
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:42 am

That is what you get when you create a massive new governmental agency without much thought or planning.

Right after 9/11, we created TSA, one of the worst government agencies ever imagined. Not content to rest on those laurels, we took several agencies that were fairly well-functioning where they were - Border Patrol and Customs - and put them together in a new agency with a new structure that rivals TSA in inefficiency.

I see it on a daily basis in DC, and it is simply amazing how bad we've fu^&ed this one up.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
dl021
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:53 am

Hey, everyone was hammering the administration to create the DHS and now they got it.

When you are moving thousands of people it ain't that hard to make a mistake where you send some when no one specifies the state. Communications are easily broken in any bureaucracy.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 1):
Somebody fucked up. This is like 4th grade geography

 checkmark 

At this point in time, any small mistake by FEMA will be brought to the forefront therefore, no mistake is authorized . . . the continuing black eye is starting to get very swollen.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
halls120
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Hey, everyone was hammering the administration to create the DHS and now they got it.

When you are moving thousands of people it ain't that hard to make a mistake where you send some when no one specifies the state. Communications are easily broken in any bureaucracy.

What, the gold-plated Homeland Security Operations Center doesn't have a map of the US?

One of the basic reasons for creating DHS was the argument that we needed all these disparate agencies together so they could talk to one another. AND THEY STILL CAN'T!
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Hey, everyone was hammering the administration to create the DHS and now they got it.

It isn't DHS that was the problem-it was taking away the autonomy of FEMA, and taking FEMA out of hands of a capable guy like James Lee Witt. They de-clawed FEMA so resources could be sent "cough" elsewhere.
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
What, the gold-plated Homeland Security Operations Center doesn't have a map of the US?

Oh, Halls, they got all sorts of neat-o maps. They just don't have intelligence to use them. Apparently quite basic intelligence.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
BN747
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Hey, everyone was hammering the administration to create the DHS and now they got it.

Like who???

I personally have NEVER liked this idea (bureaucracy's upon more bureaucracy)! I've always felt we've had everything we needed.. we just needed assert more emphasis on those collecting paychecks (in whatever agency) to f*n start earning them... I don't mean the low-level 'crats... I mean the higher ups who busy comparing the perks with pals in other departments!

What we're seeing clearly of DHS is simply another enormous information gather operation-- that's it!


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Logan22L
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
When you are moving thousands of people it ain't that hard to make a mistake where you send some when no one specifies the state.

Plain and simple. Someone tells me to bring people to Charlestown, my immediate response is: "What state? Give me complete information, or don't give me any." If I did my job that poorly, I'd be fired.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
redngold
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:32 pm

At least we can thank them for not crashing the plane... At least it landed safely, somewhere.


redngold
Who thinks a lot of kids (past, present and future) slept through geography one too many times
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halls120
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Hey, everyone was hammering the administration to create the DHS and now they got it.

It isn't DHS that was the problem-it was taking away the autonomy of FEMA, and taking FEMA out of hands of a capable guy like James Lee Witt. They de-clawed FEMA so resources could be sent "cough" elsewhere.

DHS is part of the problem, unfortunately. I see it almost on a daily basis. First of all, even if FEMA hadn't been brought into the DHS fold, it would have been an isolated cast-off the past three years. DHS is an inside the beltway bureaucracy that is consuming everything in its path. The Pentagon is the only agency that can keep them at bay. And with DHS, fighting terrorism is priority #1. Virtually everything else is just about invisible in the policy making sphere.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting Redngold (Reply 10):
At least we can thank them for not crashing the plane... At least it landed safely, somewhere.

 checkmark 

Good one, Red. Sooo true!
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:50 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 9):
Plain and simple. Someone tells me to bring people to Charlestown, my immediate response is: "What state? Give me complete information, or don't give me any." If I did my job that poorly, I'd be fired.

Yes, but in government its "If I did my job properly, I'd be fired."
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
andz
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:23 pm

What does FEMA stand for?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:25 pm

I'd like to see where the Manchester flight ends up.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
dl021
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:31 pm

Did it look like I was defending DHS's creation? Didn't mean to do that. The basic good idea to coordinate all the activities and informations of the agencies responsible for the security of our great homeland and in theory putting them under one leader so that they share informations rather than compete and withhold, but I have yet to meet a government bureaucracy that I like or think to be efficient......especially a new one.

That said, everyone here is hyperprimed to jump on anything that goes wrong. I'd like to see whether everyone here does their jobs perfectly under constant scrutiny, and then whether they take that into account when examining the job done by the people in this situation.

There's going to be a time for a review and correction.....I just don't think that now is the time.
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Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:18 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):
I'd like to see where the Manchester flight ends up.

Think of the possibilities for FEMA to screw up!:

Rochester, MN, or Rochester, NY?

Manchester, NH, or Manchester, UK?

Portland, ME, or Portland, OR?

Maybe they'd even confuse West Palm Beach and Palm Springs.


FEMA needs to become an independent agency again, and it needs to have someone like Mr. Witt running it again. He did a solid job under Clinton with that agency.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
redngold
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:49 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 14):
What does FEMA stand for?

Federal Emergency Management Administration

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Manchester, NH, or Manchester, UK?

or Manchester, Indiana (although I don't think there's an airport, there certainly is a Greyhound stop...)
Up, up and away!
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):
I'd like to see where the Manchester flight ends up.

Mark

MAN tower, Southwest 9247 inbound runway ** approach.

MAN tower guy: WTF??

Seriously though, this is retarded.
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TedTAce
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
At this point in time, any small mistake by FEMA will be brought to the forefront therefore, no mistake is authorized . . . the continuing black eye is starting to get very swollen.

I thought it was all the Mayor and Govenor's fault?  duck 
This space intentionally left blank
 
SlamClick
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 14):
What does FEMA stand for?

Federal Excuse-Making Agency

. . . apparently

Actually they are the Federal Emergency Management Agency. This title explains a lot. When there is a problem, our Government creates an agency to address it. The charter of such an agency is to MANAGE and not to SOLVE the problem.

What you and I would call "clean air" and "clean water" the Environmental Protection Agency would call a disaster. If the problem goes away so does their budget. Not one Federal agency actually has a vested interest in solving the problems it was created to address. So the problems get (only slightly) worse each year, except election years.

And millions of Americans want National Health Insurance run by an agency like this.
Go figure!
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SlamClick
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:44 pm

Actually I am prepared to cut FEMA some slack here. As an old SAC veteran friend of mine used to say: "You've got to expect losses in an operation this size." Of course he said it ruefully.

We saw a jet charter go to Bakersfield California instead of Seattle Washington once. Easy enough: BFL instead of BFI. Mistook the "I" for a lower-case "L" I suppose. We were just glad they didn't go to Honolulu when we sent them to Helena Montana (HNL - HLN)

It is laughable, it makes them look like bumblers, and not for the first time, but it can happen.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
dan-air
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
And millions of Americans want National Health Insurance run by an agency like this.
Go figure!

As opposed to no insurance, right? Yeah, having no health insurance for a significant percentage of the population is always the more efficient way to go.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:37 am

Let's all prey that such mis-deeds are NOT the "standard" ! whatever .. our political positions may be. What is at stake is the fate of already hampered people
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 23):
As opposed to no insurance, right? Yeah, having no health insurance for a significant percentage of the population is always the more efficient way to go.

I don't think Americans having insurance was the point-as many people pointed out to Bill and Hillary in '93, do we REALLY want a government bureaucracy running health care? Hell, the government can't even get relief planes to the right destination!
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dan-air
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
I don't think Americans having insurance was the point-as many people pointed out to Bill and Hillary in '93, do we REALLY want a government bureaucracy running health care? Hell, the government can't even get relief planes to the right destination!

Oh I know what the "point" was: "look how bad FEMA is, imagine how bad Natl.Ins. would be in the same hands."

It's a ridiculous assertion. Clinton rebuilt FEMA after it's disasterous performance following Hurricane Andrew and the last Bush presidency. FEMA was a much improved operation when Floyd hit N. Carolina in 1999.

Enter George Bush and the relegation of FEMA to the backburner. Bush appoints a crony with ZERO disaster management experience (Allbaugh), who quits when the pickings in Iraq reconstruction contracts become too tempting to miss. Allbaugh appointed Brown as his deputy - why, nobody knows, since he also has ZERO management experience - but was Allbaughs roommate in college and had contributed moolah to Bush/Cheney.

My point is - if you put unqualified people in positions of power, failure is guaranteed. Our military is a government operation - anyone think we should privatise it?
 
Logan22L
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:53 am

In a related development, some 2,500 evacuees were scheduled to arrive on Cape Cod yesterday. The state mobilized volunteers, doctors, and military personnel who waited for them to arrive. The planes never showed. Apparently FEMA never asked people if they were comfortable being relocated that far from home, so we've got people and supplies waiting, and FEMA isn't sending anyone.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 26):
It's a ridiculous assertion.

Insanity is often described as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time. Given that absolutely every Government undertaking has worked out badly and cost anywhere from ten to a hundred thousand times as much as they said it would you have faith that this new Agency, which will have to be the largest yet created will somehow be efficient. Remarkable!

Either you:

1. Have never dealt with any Government agency, in which case you are not remotely qualified to guess at how it will work out.

or

2. Work for the Government in which case you have a conflict of interest in this matter.


And you seem to believe that it will work out fine despite being told how seriously flawed the system is in other countries, where personal income taxes approach fifty percent. Amazing faith!

Everything, and I mean absolutely everything the Government does, it does badly and collects & misdirects far too much money to do it. If we get national health insurance I'll have to pay for that in addition to the "real" coverage I'll have to have anyway in case I ever actually want to be seen by a doctor.

National healthcare is just a scam to buy the votes of the poor. It would be great if it were actually a plan to give them heathcare but it isn't. It isn't because politicians lie. Yours and mine - they all lie. Democrats and Republicans, they lie. And if you don't ever wise up to that absolute, then you deserved to pay an additional twenty thousand a year in taxes to pay for seven thousand dollars worth of ineffective health insurance. But I don't.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 23):
Yeah, having no health insurance for a significant percentage of the population is always the more efficient way to go.

For the next five years I'll have health insurance. I'll pay for it with the money I saved NOT using drugs or buying a giant duallie-pickup or a Hummer. There will be money left over for a few vacations.

Most people with a job can afford health insurance. They can pay for it with the money the squander on less important things like cable TV, beer, and worst of all credit card interest. Yes it is important but it is less affordable if you piss away your money on things that are not important.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
dl021
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:04 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 27):
Apparently FEMA never asked people if they were comfortable being relocated that far from home, so we've got people and supplies waiting, and FEMA isn't sending anyone.

What other country in the world offers choices of accomodations to evacuees?
If the aid is free then I don't see why the evacuees need to worry about where they end up unless they have the option of staying with family somewhere, in which case they can relieve the system of needing to provide for them.

This is similar to the people I saw interviewed on TV bitching about the MREs and water.....they were expecting hot meals and their choice of soft drinks.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 20):
I thought it was all the Mayor and Govenor's fault?

Then you didn't read far enough through my posts TedT . . . I never, ever said FEMA was not at fault . . . please, go back, re-read them and get back to me . . . .

What I said was the MOST fucked up operation was state and local, but I never EVER said FEMA should be spared. In fact, I can recall specifically saying Brown should be fired and FEMA should "have it's ass handed to them".  irked 

Geez, you're starting to read posts like a liberal - only the parts you WANT to read . . . c'mon Teddy you can do better than that  wink 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
This is similar to the people I saw interviewed on TV bitching about the MREs and water.....they were expecting hot meals and their choice of soft drinks.

And likely some of them are the same morons too stupid to evacuate in the first place . . . rather than looking in the mirror, they'd rather follow the example of "Dear Leader Nagin", aka Mayor  hissyfit  and blame others for their woes.  redflag 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TPASXM787
Posts: 1667
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RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 23):
Yeah, having no health insurance for a significant percentage of the population is always the more efficient way to go.

see this:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
I don't think Americans having insurance was the point-as many people pointed out to Bill and Hillary in '93, do we REALLY want a government bureaucracy running health care? Hell, the government can't even get relief planes to the right destination!

Yeah gov't insurance would be great...just another piece of my freedom taken away and higher taxes and more bullshit...so I can give more $$ to a disaster of a government organization. Like there aren't enough of those already.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 28):
National healthcare is just a scam to buy the votes of the poor.

You are a goddamn genius. Seriously.  bigthumbsup 
This is the Last Stop.
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:13 am

RE: Fema Sends Refugees To Wrong Charleston

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 31):
Yeah gov't insurance would be great...just another piece of my freedom taken away and higher taxes and more bullshit...so I can give more $$ to a disaster of a government organization. Like there aren't enough of those already.

If you have health insurance, you ALREADY pay for the uninsured - they use the emergency rooms at no charge, and the cost is passed onto insurance companies.

Treatment at the Emergency room is absolutely the most expensive way to provide health-care, bar none.

When the uninsured are faced with the need for major catastrophic care, they are usually bankrupted.

So call it "socialism" or whatever epithet suits your needs, one way or another you pay.

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