User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:55 pm

FEMA won't accept Amtrak's help in evacuations
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e..

FEMA turns away experienced firefighters
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/105538/7048

FEMA turns back Wal-Mart supply trucks
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspec..

FEMA prevents Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspec..

FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

FEMA bars morticians from entering New Orleans
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=...

FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826

FEMA fails to utilize Navy ship with 600-bed hospital on board
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509..

FEMA to Chicago: Send just one truck
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902dale..

FEMA turns away generators
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

FEMA: "First Responders Urged Not To Respond"
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470

That last one is real -- not satire but straight from FEMA's website.
 
BN747
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:05 pm

Let me get a very comfortable chair and sit back and watch the 'Righties' come at that argument with an axe....


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:11 pm

Hey now, go easy on FEMA and "Brownie". It's not his fault he went from judging competitions for Arabian show horses (a job from which he was fired) to being expected to lead the rescue efforts of tens of thousands of people. And besides, according to our president, he's doing a "heck of a job".
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:20 pm

You know, the scary thing is that I wish you were making this shit up. I really, really wish you were making this up...

This is downright criminal. Michael Brown needs to be fired NOW. Not only does he need to be fired, but if it is found that he was involved in any of the orders to turn back any sort of supplies, that should be criminal and he should be sent to jail.
NO URLS in signature
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:34 pm

Just goes to show how FEMA seems to be more concerned about protecting its turf, like any federal bureaucracy, than actually getting things done.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:34 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 4):
Just goes to show how FEMA seems to be more concerned about protecting its turf, like any federal bureaucracy, than actually getting things done.

Before DHS was created, FEMA was a fairly well-functioning agency. Once DHS stood up, its single minded focus on terrorism pushed FEMA to the back of the room.

TSA was a bad idea, and DHS was an even worse idea. Maybe Congress will come to its senses and pass legislation that addresses the mess we've created in Washington.

By the way, none of the links to the NY Times seem to work.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:36 pm

Has anybody actually bothered to read the news stories, in some of them, there were legimate concerns.

Does anybody realized that FEMA was sucked into the Homeline Defense Department back in 2003, since that time, there have been numerous disasters in the United States, so far, every other state has not had any problems.....

Here is the mission of FEMA, which people seem to be confused about:

Quote:
The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters.

In times of crisis, the local government is the 1st responder, if they can not handle the problem, they turn to the state, if the state can not handle the problem the state then turns to the Federal Government.

I am beginning to think that people do not understand the roles of FEMA & how the government really works..... There are only about 2,000 people in FEMA
NO URLS in signature
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 6):
there have been numerous disasters in the United States, so far, every other state has not had any problems.....

NOTHING has ever hit the USA like this since the great San Francisco earthquake.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 6):
Has anybody actually bothered to read the news stories, in some of them, there were legimate concerns.

Come now Mike, you don't think the poster would actually admit there might have been valid reasons behind some of these claims? Why that might actually imply there were people that had a plan and could make logical decisions based on reason, not just an emotional reaction.

I know it is hard to believe, but how could such a pillar of journalistic accuracy such as the "Daily KOS" be so wrong? It is so much easier to point a finger then to lift one.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:21 am

While I assure you FEMA has screwed the pooch on this disaster, in a lot of ways, in a lot of places I can also assure you the local government in NOLA is ten times more dicked up than FEMA could ever be . . . .

Until you read the Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan, and see for yourself just how literally fucked up Baton ROuge and NOLA were/are in their readiness, you need - whomever you are - to STFU about the Federal Government response.  headache 

It is the ultimate; the epitomy of Pot, Pot, Black . . . period.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
TSA was a bad idea

]

Candidate for Understatement of the Century Award  wink 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 7):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 6):
there have been numerous disasters in the United States, so far, every other state has not had any problems.....

NOTHING has ever hit the USA like this since the great San Francisco earthquake.

A disaster is a disaster, and you have a plan to deal with a disaster.

The Mayor of New Orleans has a plan, if the disaster is to big for the city, he requests help from the State.

The Governor of Louisiana has a plan, if the disaster is to big for the state, she requests help from the Federal Government.

There was no communication between the Mayor & the Governor, as anybody in the military will tell you, if the chain-of-command breaks down, you have another problem.....
NO URLS in signature
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:36 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Until you read the Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan, and see for yourself just how literally fucked up Baton ROuge and NOLA were/are in their readiness, you need - whomever you are - to STFU about the Federal Government response.

1. Post the plan in its entirety so I can read it.
2. Don't tell me not to criticize the Federal Government response. You don't like what I'm saying so you tell me to shutup? That's unlike you ANC. Am I suddenly only allowed to criticize the government if I have read the plan? Ridiculous dude.

MidnightMike,

Did you read my post? I made posts that showed (with links) that the governor asked for federal aid because she foresaw that the disaster would be beyond the state's control.

Do you have a link for your claim of "no communication between mayor and governor"? Its easy to make assumptions like that so that you can make your point.
NO URLS in signature
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:39 am

After FEMA was put into the Department of Homeland Security, their focus has changed from natural disasters to terrorism. And, funding for their natural disaster programs has failed. Midnightmike mentioned how the progression goes, local-->state-->federal, HOWEVER you have to remember that this is probably the worst case of chaos ever seen in a disaster of this magnitude in the United States. I hate to say this, but since it hit a poor area of New Orleans, this caused the choas to be more "chaotic." People don't have the money to leave before the hurricane, and people are willing to do anything to defend what they have. There was no way the state or local governments could have taken care of this problem. The Feds should have been there a lot sooner. But like I said, the progression Midnighmike talks about is theoretically correct, but that's just what is written in paper. Every disaster is its own animal, and FEMA and state and local governments need to realize that. There is no cookie cutter answer to every disaster. The thing is, the Bush administration is taking a TON of heat because of this, so they keep pushing the blame on the local government, but the local government and state governments have NO WAY of handling this.

Anyway, back to the FEMA thing. Like I said, their focus since 9/11 has been terrorism. In fact, I watched something on CNN last night, where they reported that FEMA was instructed NOT to take any refugees aboard military aircraft until they could find enough security screeners to screen the refugees before they got on the aircraft to be airlifted out, because they were concerned that someone might be a terrorist. I'm sorry I don't have a link or anything, just caught that on the news last night.

Secondly, the President, for his own image, needs to set up camp in LA for a while and not just go there for day and shake people's hands. If he wants to save ANY sort of sympathetic image he has, he needs to be down there working his ass off like EVERY OTHER individual. I think this would not only do a lot for his image, but it could be a real turning point for the continual bad press he's gotten in his second term. Screw the security BS, he needs to quit being a pussywhipped puppet and take back some southern ethic, get his hands dirty, and help. But then again, I'm just as happy with the liberals pointing out the faults in the president as he sits in Washington in his suit.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 11):
1. Post the plan in its entirety so I can read it.

I posted the link on 5 different threads here. It's over 40 pages, I'm not posting the damn thing when you could go read it yourself (and the Mods would can it anyway likely) . . . and have a broader knowledge base of the FACTS instead of simply pounding on the feds with HALF the information.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 11):
You don't like what I'm saying so you tell me to shutup?

Not telling YOU TBar - telling others, anyone in general - spouting off their mouths without taking all information in to account . . . especially Louisiana's own plan which in my opinion is a very vital piece of the puzzle when it comes to pointing blame fingers . . .

If the combat boot fits, well . . . . so be it.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 11):
Am I suddenly only allowed to criticize the government if I have read the plan?

Obviously not - you're already doing it . . .  wink 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:56 am

Get real, FEMA has been crap even before it was under DHS. They are always late in responding to any national disaster. Blame should be assigned to state and local government and officials. Why is New Orleans relying heavily on FEMA to bail them out? Cause their local emergency response was non existent. I am so tired of checking webpasge after webpage of news only to read about this stuff.


Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 14):
Get real, FEMA has been crap even before it was under DHS. They are always late in responding to any national disaster.

They were out in force pretty quick after the hurricanes in Florida last year handing out money and relief aid. But that was in an election year in a swing state where the Governor is the brother of President  conehead .
International Homo of Mystery
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 1):
Let me get a very comfortable chair and sit back and watch the 'Righties' come at that argument with an axe....

What the hell does this have to do with political affiliation?
This Website Censors Me
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
They were out in force pretty quick after the hurricanes in Florida last year handing out money and relief aid. But that was in an election year in a swing state where the Governor is the brother of President

Looks like you made your own point. Also, there is still a ton of insurance guys down in Florida writing checks. Did the Govenor of New Orleans react as quickly as Florida? I doubt it. Watching the Mayor of New Orleans daily on CNN is laughable. Where were you sir when your people needed you? No comment.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 17):
Looks like you made your own point. Also, there is still a ton of insurance guys down in Florida writing checks.

Seems there's a virus going around that makes people read posts and flight schedules with equal comprehension.
International Homo of Mystery
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:32 am

When all the finger pointing is done, there's one person that will be the most to blame.

Governor Blanco before Katrina:


Governor Blanco now:


She simply didn't ask for help soon enough. Now she's refusing to authorize the forced evacuation of New Orleans. She says she needs more proof that the water is harmful. What a hesitant neurotic!
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
A disaster is a disaster, and you have a plan to deal with a disaster.

You haven't seen the coast of Mississippi, have you? I've already been to Bay St. Louis and back to help salvage one of my friend's family possessions.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
I've already been to Bay St. Louis and back to help salvage one of my friend's family possessions.

I trust your friend got out of there before the hurricane hit? Good for him/her. And my best wishes for him/her starting a new life, as generally, everything along the coast there is gone.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:09 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
A disaster is a disaster, and you have a plan to deal with a disaster.

You haven't seen the coast of Mississippi, have you? I've already been to Bay St. Louis and back to help salvage one of my friend's family possessions.

Just what I saw on TV, which does not mean that I do not understand the size of the disaster....
NO URLS in signature
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:36 am

ANC,

har har har

Do you have a link to one of the threads where you posted it? I'd like to read it.

AsstChiefMark,

Governor Blanco asked for federal assistance before the storm hit, saying that the disaster would be out of the state's ability.
NO URLS in signature
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:45 am

TBar:

Your wish is granted:

Here's one of the threads . . . "George Bush Doesn't Care About Black People" (by TedTAce Sep 3 2005 in Non Aviation)
Here's the link directly to the plan - AGAIN :
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans...h='Louisiana%20Emergency%20plan'

And some other info of interest:


I recently received the following from a very reliable source (a retired Army One Star General of unquestionable repute). The source of this info is irrefutable in my book, having known the gentleman since 1979, he is of unquestionable integrity. He indicated the information came from a fellow Army Major General. The message in fact continues to support the facts that the Mayor and the Governor failed to act in a timely and responsible manner in this situation.



Message reads as follows:



On Friday night before the storm hit, Max Mayfield, of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed. President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act). Just before midnight Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could legally begin mobilization and call up. He was told that they didn't think it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited in. Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation. After a personal plea from the President Nagin agreed to order an evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action. In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question to use before the disaster. Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to NO for levee construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and support the gambling ships. Toss in the investigation that will look into why the emergency preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document implies that they were. The suffering people of NO need to be asking some hard questions as do we all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining states. Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them. This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:45 am

Thanks for the website, it wasn't that hard to post it again was it?
NO URLS in signature
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 25):
Thanks for the website, it wasn't that hard to post it again was it?

Sorry, I thought you wanted me to post the whole damn op order . . . my bad.  Embarrassment . . .  biggrin 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 23):
Governor Blanco asked for federal assistance before the storm hit, saying that the disaster would be out of the state's ability.

Source?
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 27):
Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 23):
Governor Blanco asked for federal assistance before the storm hit, saying that the disaster would be out of the state's ability.

Source?

Read my reply 24 to see how  redflag  that is.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:59 am

WhaleJets Rule!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13503
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 1):
Let me get a very comfortable chair and sit back and watch the 'Righties' come at that argument with an axe....

And Clickhappy's "let's see how many threads I can start today" tour continues...  stirthepot 

Do you ever actually contribute anything here?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I trust your friend got out of there before the hurricane hit? Good for him/her. And my best wishes for him/her starting a new life, as generally, everything along the coast there is gone.

Her parents retired to a nice apartment about a mile (as the crow flies) from the beach in Bay St. Louis. They, of course, drove up to Starkville on Sunday and are staying with their daughter and her roommates.

Bay St. Louis is a horrible sight.
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:13 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
before midnight Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could legally begin mobilization and call up.

Your source?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080022 (yes I know it's a "liberal site", they cite sources for the timeline):

An August 28 statement by Blanco made clear that President Bush called her just before the August 28 press conference at which the evacuation was announced, casting doubt on the claim that Bush's phone call was a decisive factor in the decision to evacuate. This timeline was later confirmed by White House press secretary Scott McClellan during the September 7 White House press briefing, when he reported that Bush had spoken to Blanco "around 9:00 a.m.," just minutes before the governor's 9:30 a.m. CT August 28 press conference began. The press conference opened with New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin -- not Blanco, as Chavez and Murdock stated -- declaring the mandatory evacuation.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 32):
Your source?



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
I recently received the following from a very reliable source (a retired Army One Star General of unquestionable repute). The source of this info is irrefutable in my book, having known the gentleman since 1979, he is of unquestionable integrity. He indicated the information came from a fellow Army Major General. The message in fact continues to support the facts that the Mayor and the Governor failed to act in a timely and responsible manner in this situation.



Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 32):
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080022 (yes I know it's a "liberal site", they cite sources for the timeline):

Thanks for that info Dan-Air . . . I appreciate all sources of info . . well, unless they come from some member's Mothership or a guy named Lew wink . I don't care if it's liberal, conservative or not . . . the more the better . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
the emergency preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were never contacted or coordinating into any planning

If that's true, and I strongly suspect that it is, there should be criminal prosecutions of the people responsible. This is much closer to homicide than incompetance.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 34):
If that's true, and I strongly suspect that it is, there should be criminal prosecutions of the people responsible. This is much closer to homicide than incompetance.

Although I would tend to agree with you, I won't pass judgement on that - not my place. When, and I mean when, what ever investigations and hearings come out of this are concluded, then we'll find out . . . or we'll find out what our Government wants to tell us.

Having read the State's Emergency Operations Plan, and ably picking it apart word by word, I will NOT be surprised if this in fact the case.

We will see what the Senate Hearings brings to bear.

I'm also convinced that the heirarchy at FEMA will pay a toll for their errors here as well.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
wobbles
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:40 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:34 pm

I don't want to hear anything about the local/state government taking most of the blame for the slow response, particulary after the hurricane hit. For those who say that Blanco and Nagin did not make formal requests for asssitance to get the national guard and FEMA down there sooner, use the following anology: If a police officer sees someone in a burning car, but they are, say for example, a Minneapolis police officer traveling back on I94 from St. Paul at 2am (in the St. Paul city limits), is he/she going to keep on going and not do anything because they need to call a St. Paul officer to immediately save the person in the burning car? (and hypothectially, the St. Paul officer gets there in 5 minutes, but the person is dead since they waited for help).
My point, yes in most disasters they may be a chain of command, but what about common sense?
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Wobbles (Reply 36):
My point, yes in most disasters they may be a chain of command, but what about common sense?

Using your anaology above where, Wobbles, was the common sense in waiting until Sunday morning before Mayor  hissyfit  issued an evacuation order with a Category 5 storm screaming at his city verified by the NOAA as early as Thursday night/Friday morning???

Should not Mayor Nagin have said, fuck it, I still don't have any word from the Feds, I better act on my own and get my citizenry outta here right now. I AM their Mayor, their duly elected civic leader after all. I can worry about the state and the feds later, right now I have thousands of constituents whose lives are in serious danger!!!!! These citizens are relying on ME to make the right decisions! To blazes with waiting, I'm gonna check my package and get the damn ball rolling!!!!!

When you answer this question we can continue this discussion.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
wobbles
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:40 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:06 pm

I think the evacuation was given on Sat. nite and it did not become a 5 (even though, granted it was still at least a 3 on Th/F) until Sunday.
Again, my focus with the Feds is their response after the hurricane hit and I said they should take most of the blame, not all of it.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:35 pm

Quoting Wobbles (Reply 38):
I think the evacuation was given on Sat. nite and it did not become a 5 (even though, granted it was still at least a 3 on Th/F) until Sunday

Negative . . . the evacuation order issued by the Mayor was Sunday morning. . . and it specifically included the infamous "Go to the Superdome".

Further, Katrina was a Cat 5 late Friday, early Saturday . . . at the latest.

Quoting Wobbles (Reply 38):
Again, my focus with the Feds is their response after the hurricane hit and I said they should take most of the blame, not all of it.

I understand that . . . and we disagree . . .

I do not hold harmless the Feds here . . not for a second. But I do however wonder - as you have undoubtedly read in the two dozen Katrina threads here - WTF the Mayor was waiting on? WTF the Emergency Plan wasn't activated? WTF the Governor waited to maneuver HER military - the LANG - into position until Sunday in some cases? A whole host of questions . . .

We can disagree . . . it won't be the first time on A-net  wink .

But . . . all that said . . . .you still haven't said wether my questions and comments . . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
Should not Mayor Nagin have said, fuck it, I still don't have any word from the Feds, I better act on my own and get my citizenry outta here right now. I AM their Mayor, their duly elected civic leader after all. I can worry about the state and the feds later, right now I have thousands of constituents whose lives are in serious danger!!!!! These citizens are relying on ME to make the right decisions! To blazes with waiting, I'm gonna check my package and get the damn ball rolling!!!!!

. . . . . . hold water?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:47 pm

The problem with shifting most of the blame towards NOLA and the State of Louisiana is that, the response was also abysmal in Mississippi. Did the local govts in Mississippi also have brain farts? I don’t think so. That’s why I don’t buy into the Feds spin that the local governments screwed up bigger than the Fed did.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:32 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
issued an evacuation order with a Category 5 storm screaming at his city verified by the NOAA as early as Thursday night/Friday morning???

Hurricanes are unpredictable and evacuations are expensive.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:38 pm

I personally can't wait to find out what an investigation is going to find out about the screw-ups the local goverments made. I think there is a lot of "Blame the Feds" crap going around.

Sort of reminds me of something that happened this summer, several villages declared "fuel emergencies" because they couldn't afford to pay the fuel bills for the powerplants. Started making all sorts of noise about how they where screwed by the State of Alaska cutting revenue sharing and that they where going to be frozen out this winter.

Come to find out that at least one of the villages had an application in with the state for a fuel cost grant program, but had never signed it. So they wheren't included for the grant.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 41):
Hurricanes are unpredictable . . . .

Very . . .

That said, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see a 300 mile wide (plus) storm front with cat 5/4 winds will knock your ass for a loop even if it DOES change course by a degree or two . . . case in point - please see Hurrican Katrina 2005.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 41):
. . . . . and evacuations are expensive.

So are thousansd of lives . . . .

Nuf said.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
magnetass
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:38 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:01 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 2):
Hey now, go easy on FEMA and "Brownie". It's not his fault he went from judging competitions for Arabian show horses (a job from which he was fired) to being expected to lead the rescue efforts of tens of thousands of people. And besides, according to our president, he's doing a "heck of a job".

No flames....just some common sense. When you inject the phrase "Federal Government" into ANYTHING, it gets all boogered up.

NOTHING works as well as private industry, and the fallacy of the ingrained reliance on the "government" as the be all end all savior has been never more amply demonstrated.

The federal government sucks as disaster relief. FEMAs job is to write checks.....days and weeks later. The people in charge of immediate disaster relief are local and state agencies, period, end of fucking story. Not George Bush, not DHS, not the FEMA director, not the SecState, not the VP. The people directly in charge of disaster relief are the city and state disaster agencies, the local and state governments and the local and state law enforcement and fire/EMS agencies. FEMA has not the manpower or assets to provide immediate relief anywhere. Show me ONE piece of emergency equipment with FEMA written on it. Look at the way this disaster was run in Mississippi and Alabama. I am going to grant you that an entire city did not flood in either of those 2 states, however they didn't waste time screaming for federal help either. Ray Nagin was screaming for the feds to come rescue NO, and there was nothing to send. EVERY SINGLE TIME there is a disaster, people scream that FEMA isn't moving fast enough.....because there is a fundamental misunderstanding as to what FEMA does.

Now, FEMA did in fact fumble the ball, but only after they were punted it. Numerous private relief agencies were prevented from providing basics by hapless FEMA people whose job it is figure out how to get money and resources a week later. It’s not like we've never had a gigantic disaster like this before, and FEMA has done just fine because nobody was screaming for them to provide immediate disaster relief, security and search and rescue. All that stuff stems from the Governors office and the individual mayors along the gulf coast.....this is the reason we have individual states you know. FEMA does not do what it was being screamed at to do by an inept Mayor and a clueless governor. Want to know why FEMA didn't want all that stuff? They....stupidly I'll grant you....assumed that Louisiana and New Orleans government would do their job, and flooding an area with unregulated help just causes more harm.

What nobody is saying, and will not say, is that what was REALLY unanticipated was that an ENTIRE state and local government would collapse and become paralyzed. This is totally unprecedented. NO lapsed almost immediately into a complete nightmare, and the various state and local agencies ENTIRELY collapsed and began to scream for the feds to come rescue them. FEMA is writing an entire new book on the fly here. That’s the problem, and that was the delay. You cannot task a federal agency whose job it is to ride in a week later and pass out checks with a relief task the magnitude of this one and expect a good outcome.

Let me go back. The Federal Government does not do anything well. They are slow, cumbersome and inefficient. The LAST place any agency tasked with immediate disaster relief needs to be is in the Federal Government. That responsibility rightly rests with Local government first, state government second.

The fact that FEMA straighten up, and only took a week to catch up is BREATHTAKING. Astounding. Miraculous even.

Had I been FEMA director, things would have gone differently....but I'm a search and rescue guy, not a mid-level bureaucrat. The reason there is a mid-level bureaucrat as FEMA director is exactly because their task is not immediate disaster relief, and you need number crunchers and staff weenies to arrange the things that the people who are tasked with actually doing the job need after their own resources have run down. That’s the way the thing is designed to work. New Orleans city government and Louisiana state government should have had everything they needed to make this happen, so FEMA could ride in 3 or 4 days later and replenish supplies and personnel and pass out money. There was no reason to suspect that Louisiana was incapable of holding the fort for 4 days. Alabama did Mississippi did. Florida did. South Carolina did. Texas did. Hell Louisiana has in the past. What was different this time? FEMA has NEVER provided immediate relief before, why in the world is it that this time, everybody expects them to?

Lesson is. You rely on the feds, you are going to be disappointed. Period.

They had 3 days to stock the SuperDome and convention center with enough food, water, medicine, medical people and security to last 25, 000 people a week. They had 3 days to mobilize enough LOUISIANA National Guard troops to handle looting and provide relief. They had 3 days to put out the call for more cops and firefighters and paramedics. They had 3 days in which to forcibly evacuate the city. They had 3 days in which to transfer out every ICU and vent patient in every hospital.

None of this happened, yet the persistent cry is "FEMA dropped the ball".

FEMA should have never been handed the ball is the point.


Now, I know a lot you of chronic Bush-bashers are NEVER interested in facts, or anything close to them, but if you'd like to read the City of New Orleans' disaster plan, and show me where it says "Get off your asses" and come rescue us?

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=3

Pay particular attention to the part where it says:

"We coordinate all city departments and allied state and federal agencies which respond to citywide disasters and emergencies through the development and constant updating of an integrated multi-hazard plan. All requests for federal disaster assistance and federal funding subsequent to disaster declarations are also made through this office. Our authority is defined by the Louisiana Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, Chapter 6 Section 709, Paragraph B, 'Each parish shall maintain a Disaster Agency which, except as otherwise provided under this act, has jurisdiction over and serves the entire parish.' "


This is a photograph that PERFECTLY sums up exactly where the breakdown was



Now, how did these people get here?




http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/090405_local_busfleet.html

http://www.houstonisd.org/HISD/porta...1,20856_90333894_126683767,00.html

http://www.houstonisd.org/HISD/porta...1,20856_90333894_126928388,00.html


If you'd REALLY like to be political, and come up with a particular party to blame, here ya go:

New Orleans has a Democrat Mayor, a Democrat City Council, and a Democrat
Chief of Police. Louisiana has a Democrat Governor, a Democrat Lt.
Governor,
a Democrat Attorney General; 24 of 39 Louisiana State Senators are
Democrat,
67 of 105 Louisiana State House Representatives are Democrat, there's a
Democrat Representative in the House from New Orleans, and one of two
Senators in the Senate is a Democrat.


Personally, I don't see this as a political question, other than what I've said previously about the federal government needing to not be involved in direct disaster relief, but if you are going to continue to mouth off about things that you have exactly zero clue about, then somebody has to say something, and I guess I'm the guy with the knowledge and direct experience to do it.

BTW, if you'd REALLY like to do something useful, here's my schedule at the Dome for the next month. You can stay with me….


Tues 9-6 Reliant 2000-0800
Thurs 9-8 Reliant 2000-0800
Sat 9-10 Reliant 2000-0800
Mon 9-12 Reliant 2000-0800
Tues 9-13 Reliant 2000-0800
Sun 9-18 Reliant Texans/Pitt 6:30
Wed 9-21 Reliant 2000-0800
Fri 9-23 Reliant 2000-0800
Sat 9-24 Rice/Navy 1700
Wed 9-28 Reliant 2000-0800
Fri 9-30 Reliant 2000-0800
Sat 10-2 Reliant 2000-0800

[Edited 2005-09-10 08:07:28]

[Edited 2005-09-10 08:10:15]
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:13 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43):
That said, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see a 300 mile wide (plus) storm front with cat 5/4 winds will knock your ass for a loop even if it DOES change course by a degree or two . . . case in point - please see Hurrican Katrina 2005.

Definately. I would've hauled ass out of there, for sure. Screw classes. One of my friends who goes to LSU is still here in Starkville. I wonder when she's going to be able to go back...
 
Roger136913
Posts: 461
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:19 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:34 pm

Magnetass

The Police chief of NO was on the record tonight as stating they had no buses, they asked the Federal Government for buses (this was Monday) the day after.

When asked by the reporter (I forget CNN or Fox) If he asked or the Mayor asked he said "No I did not ask" When asked if the Mayor made the call he said I don't know who made the call...................

Now I have seen that pic of all the buses numerous times....But According to the Police Chief all the buses were parked on high ground and they could not get to them due to the Levee letting go, but they were on higher ground.

The picture says it all, they were not on higher ground.

I am not taking anything away from the Chief, he did one hell of a job with limited provisions and staff. But it seems the buses were never used.

One note that I am finding very disturbing in the elderly left in the nursing home.

I have heard two versions of it and both are disturbing to say the least.

One report had 70 people in a retirement home and Sunday before the storm they decided to get them out. Well only 35 were removed and they failed to come back for the other 35 and they perished. This was reported Friday after the storm by CNN.

The latest was last night on CNN, Nancy Grace (SP) She had a Nurse who worked in a Nursing home where they planned on keeping the Elderly there. Family would call and did not like the idea and they were told if you want your relative out you must pick them up. Well out of 59 elderly there 31 or 32 died!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The city never offered to take them out or anything. Though it was never asked if any Nurses or Staff stayed behind to look after them, I can't imagine any did.

They can't get a hold of the couple that ran the place, as they think they died in the Storm. I do know if they find them they need to be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13503
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:55 pm

Quoting Magnetass (Reply 44):
FEMAs job is to write checks.....days and weeks later. The people in charge of immediate disaster relief are local and state agencies, period, end of fucking story. Not George Bush, not DHS, not the FEMA director, not the SecState, not the VP. The people directly in charge of disaster relief are the city and state disaster agencies, the local and state governments and the local and state law enforcement and fire/EMS agencies. FEMA has not the manpower or assets to provide immediate relief anywhere. Show me ONE piece of emergency equipment with FEMA written on it.

 bigthumbsup  bigthumbsup  bigthumbsup  bigthumbsup  bigthumbsup 

If only more people understood this...or if the media would report it...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
magnetass
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:38 pm

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:38 pm

Yup....thats the point. If you have a cat 4 Hurricane bearing down on you, probably the time to use the transportation is before it hits, huh?

You can't not do ANYTHING tp prepare, then scream "Where the hell is FEMA?" when your are up to your ass is alligators as a result.

Well....you can actually so it turns out, and get a lot of otherwise fairly reasonable people to believe you.

Here's the ONE absolutely INESCAPABLE fact. There is no possible way around this.

Since the mandatory evacuation was never enforced, and the preparations never made at the Super Dome for extended stay, obviosly neither mayor Nagin or Governor Blanco anticipated the levee breaking. If they did and still did nothing except whine after it happened, then they are criminally incompetent. If the 2 people MOST responsible for adequate preparations failed to anticipate what happened, then would just one person supply me with the reason why the POTUS suddenly should have anticipated it?
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: A List Of FEMA's Screw-ups In New Orleans

Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:11 pm

Quoting Magnetass (Reply 44):
NOTHING works as well as private industry, and the fallacy of the ingrained reliance on the "government" as the be all end all savior has been never more amply demonstrated.

Well said, even President Bush has said let the charities & relief oranizations come in & do their job....

Quoting Magnetass (Reply 44):
FEMAs job is to write checks.....days and weeks later. The people in charge of immediate disaster relief are local and state agencies, period,

Based on some of the comments, I do not think that people understand the role of FEMA. FEMA only has about maybe 2000 employees, so when people were saying where is FEMA on the days after the leevys broke, the question should have been where is the Governor....

Quoting Magnetass (Reply 44):
FEMA has NEVER provided immediate relief before, why in the world is it that this time, everybody expects them to?

Yep, they wanted FEMA in there, before the National Guard was called up.
NO URLS in signature

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests