Ibhayi
Topic Author
Posts: 236
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Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:24 am

With Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe today quite rightly saying the IMF did nothing for us, which is true.

Should aid to tyranical regimes be stopped and used as a weapon to help remove dictators from their power even if it is only untill the next one comes, but during that break hope does shine.

Mugabe uses the aid given to him as a political weapon to gain support and that does feed many people in his country and in the host of other African countries that are with out food.

However the question needing to be asked, if the west didnt give any aid what so ever, more peopel would be starving, more people would be unhappy with the regime and more people would be mobilised to unite and fight against the regime, where as before they were bought off with food and rashions they now have nothing, and those given small amounts previously will now be given nothing and desperate for a change in the ruling system. Could it mean that a greater resistance would emerge?
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
greatansett
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:43 am

The UN should create a governing body to ensure the aid reaches the people..................Just a thought
Ron Paul 2012
 
TedTAce
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 1):
The UN should create a governing body to ensure the aid reaches the people.

You mean 'do it's job'??? Holy $hit!!! What a concept!!!
This space intentionally left blank
 
greatansett
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:49 am

TedTAce-It was just a thought, we don't want to trouble the UN to much.
Ron Paul 2012
 
Superfly
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:51 am

The biggest recepient of US forign aid is not a 3rd. world country.
Want to guess what country that is?
Bring back the Concorde
 
mNeo
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
more peopel would be starving, more people would be unhappy with the regime and more people would be mobilised to unite and fight against the regime, where as before they were bought off with food and rashions they now have nothing, and those given small amounts previously will now be given nothing and desperate for a change in the ruling system. Could it mean that a greater resistance would emerge?

While this is true, a dictator always keeps his army happy. The army will alomost never turn on the leader. This is where the problem comes in. The resistance must gather enough strenth before the leader realizes what they are up to, and even then there is still a chance of a civil war.
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cfalk
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 1):
The UN should create a governing body to ensure the aid reaches the people

The UN to excercise judgement and honesty?!? Good luck... Look how wonderfully it worked out with Iraqi Oil-for-Food.

Keeping aid away from dictatorial regimes means that someone will have to make a subjective call as to what is a dictatorial rigime and which is not, leaving a door open for questionable decisions with possibly terrible results.

My recommendation would be to avoid the UN altogether, and funnel all aid through the respectable organizations like the Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders, and all investment and financial aid would be strictly bilateral. The UN is simply too corrupt and inefficient.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 1):
The UN should create a governing body to ensure the aid reaches the people.

You mean 'do it's job'??? Holy $hit!!! What a concept!!!

 checkmark 

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 6):
Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 1):
The UN should create a governing body to ensure the aid reaches the people

The UN to excercise judgement and honesty?!? Good luck... Look how wonderfully it worked out with Iraqi Oil-for-Food.

 checkmark  AGAIN!
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gkirk
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:40 am

You mean the UN could do it's job properly?  Wow!
Superfly, that would be Canada I take it?  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
With Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe today quite rightly saying the IMF did nothing for us, which is true.

Actually, I wonder what Robert Mugabe wants the IMF to do?

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
Should aid to tyranical regimes be stopped and used as a weapon to help remove dictators from their power even if it is only untill the next one comes, but during that break hope does shine.

If aid is given to a country, do you give aid to a country with a corrupt leader or not? If not, how do you get aid to the people, without creating an international crisis?

Who determines who is a corrupt leader or not?

I
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Superfly
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:05 am

Again.
The biggest recepient of US forign aid is not a 3rd. world country.
Want to guess what country that is?
Bring back the Concorde
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
The biggest recepient of US forign aid is not a 3rd. world country.

The 3 largest recipients of U.S. foreign aid, last I looked was (in order):

Israel
Egypt
Colombia
International Homo of Mystery
 
mrniji
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:26 am

Trying to provide some food for thought to the thread question:

You will be surprised, but I - part of a developing country - say: YES, stop it. It creates too much dependence and is mostly connected to many other interests. On the other side, the West (and this BS Bretton Woods system) should also let the countries develop some market potential "in peace", i.e. it should not try to capture the markets before an own industry has been created - I also mean political non-interference, except in extreme cases (very violent civil wars or extreme basic human rights breaches). The key for mutual beneficial relations (in my eyes) lies in trade and alliances, with competition but not competition that leads to extreme over competittion --> i.e a market with some regulation, best many interconnected local market places, that again are global in a construct. And... just having completed some research: The US - in the case of India and many other cases - does REAL DEVELOPMENT aid: namely a huge trade deficit --> help for the developing countries to build own enterprises and sustain themselves in the future. Economic cooperation with "some altruism" (trade deficit) is better than any short-term of "too structural" development aid

This is a very general statement/observation and not overall valid in all cases, but should rather provide as some "guiding basis" for the justified question of the thread
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Superfly
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Israel
Egypt
Colombia

...and no one bitches about that.
Shame!
Bring back the Concorde
 
iakobos
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 6):
The UN to excercise judgement and honesty?!? Good luck... Look how wonderfully it worked out with Iraqi Oil-for-Food.

Well, since Volker's report came out it seems the fireworks have been cancelled.
Unless Cfalk, in all objectivity of course, will give us a shortlist of all UN bodies involved and the squadrons of UN staff which will undergo investigation and should rightly have been suspended.

How many fingers will be needed to count them all ?
Perhaps we could count in unison.....one Cypriot, one Russian, another Russian, anybody else .........?

After the UN, France, Germany, it seems that the bucket of scapegoats is pretty well empty, isn't it ?
...they served their purpose, now it's time to prepare for elections, just 5 more GOP Senators and you know what ?
 
PSA53
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:49 am

The USA,Yes.Stop ALL aid to foreign interests,
unless it's a hot spot or area in need.
Shut down some bases.Shut down some
embassy's.Instead,have for an example, a
European,Central American
or Asian Embassy's.

Let's fix our problems at home first,
balance the books and lower our taxes.

[Edited 2005-09-13 01:55:46]
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Israel
Egypt
Colombia
...and no one bitches about that.
Shame!

The person that was complaining was from a country that receives aid. I do not hear Israel, Egypt of Colombia complaining.....
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QANTASforever
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:58 am

There's a lot wrong with the IMF - that said, there's a lot more wrong with Mugabe.

We shouldn't stop giving food and medicinal aid to these country - as a human I couldn't condone "starvin' em out". Iraq showed us that it doesn't really work all that well.

I don't want to play with the lives of the downtrodden by denying them food and medicine all because their arrogant dictatorial governments snub the west.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
cfalk
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:50 pm

The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:59 pm

Israel the top recipient of US foreign aid? I can think of so many countries that would need the money more than Israel ....
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:22 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
The biggest recepient of US forign aid is not a 3rd. world country.
Want to guess what country that is?

The biggest receppient for US aid used in foreign countries, ... who could it be ...
Lockheed-Martin or Halliburton?

Axel

[Edited 2005-09-13 08:33:03]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Ibhayi
Topic Author
Posts: 236
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:01 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 9):
If aid is given to a country, do you give aid to a country with a corrupt leader or not? If not, how do you get aid to the people, without creating an international crisis?

Who determines who is a corrupt leader or not?

its quite obvious that bob and de santos amongst others are dictators and should be removed from power.

Mugabe announced this morning, that white businesses may/will be seized what a cunt. All Mbeki does it sit there with the idea that they must realise them selves its wrogn and pick them selves up and not let the west do it. Well Thabo im about to die of asphixiation cause I have been holding my breath now for years. Your supposed comrades in arms, wernt the Zanu-PF they were Mugabe's opposition party.
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
The biggest recepient of US forign aid is not a 3rd. world country.
Want to guess what country that is?

Suppose it is the "small brother" of the "big brother" you mean ?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:07 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
3 largest recipients of U.S. foreign aid

Egypt unfortunately at present still is a "Third-World-Country". Israel with 5 mio inhabitants gets as much help from the USA as Egypt with 70 mio inhabitants and that means 10 times more per person. The aim in Egypt is to become independent of aid in the longer term, but at present, US-American wheat virtually is THE breakfast for millions and the financial assistance allows Egypt to improve social services, to modernize agriculture and to build up industry, so that the Egyptian leadership has no alternative than to beg for help, and to bow to whatever demands.
 
iakobos
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:16 pm

Thanks for doing the homework Cfalk. I am afraid your teacher will rate it very badly though...
Let's see: the corrupt UN, the oil-for-food scandal, Annan tainted by his son, etc...

A little bit further down the line and the 1,035 pages of Volker's very best efforts, the US media is too shy to conclude.....that they blew it big and high.

Re Kojo Annan, the despicable son of the oh so well-known corrupt Kofi.
Investigators said additional evidence supplied by Kojo Annan established that he assisted Cotecna in its effort to win the contract, contrary to earlier denials. But the report said it appears Cotecna won the contract because it was the low bidder. "It is not known whether Kojo Annan's efforts made a difference," it said.
Kojo Annan said in a statement issued by his London lawyers that he never attempted to influence the awarding of the contract.
The committee said he used his father's "name and position" in 1998 to buy and deliver a car at a reduced price. It said he asked beforehand whether he could buy the car in his father's name, but there was no evidence to show the secretary-general ever agreed.
Kojo Annan called the car discount a youthful "indiscretion" that he regrets.

We are down to a car discount....7 years back, isn't it ?.

Re: the corrupt UN
The result was no one seemed clearly in command. Delays in or evasion of decision-making was chronic," he said. The United Nations "was not up to the extraordinary challenge" presented by the huge and complex program.
"Sadly those weaknesses were aggravated by unethical and corrupt behavior at key points," he said, such as the head of the Iraq Program, Benon Sevan, who has been accused of taking bribes from Iraq, and the purchasing department, where one official already has been indicted for soliciting bribes.

Please note the very nice touch in the careful selection of words (bolds).
Superb exercise of diplomatic crap for US domestic purposes, emphasizing on the symptoms of the fatal epidemic...and ending with a note that the virus was detected in.... two patients.

So Cfalk, I did provide more oil for the fire than you could so far, at least I mentioned three culprits and I will go so far as to assume there might be a fourth, perhaps even a fifth.

Now, I am asking, where is the huge scandal taking place inside the UN ?

Is there one honest person remaining in the great country that could read the report and come all by himself to the astonishing conclusion that a lot of steam was created to leave two, three, four tiny drops on the table ?

Can we safely conclude that the oil-for-food program left the door open for corrupt companies (including US of course) and Saddam to play a game on their own rules and pocketing huge amounts of banknotes ?

Shall we go after the culprits....but, who would go after them by the way ?

George Bush and Associates, Oilers at Law, have remarkably succeeded in convincing all of the media and half of the flock (even more in the early days of 2003) that the UN was an obstacle to a perfectly justified aim, but an obstacle unworthy of concern, rotten as it was.
Great idea for a PhD thesis in Political Science.
 
MidnightMike
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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 21):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 9):
If aid is given to a country, do you give aid to a country with a corrupt leader or not? If not, how do you get aid to the people, without creating an international crisis?

Who determines who is a corrupt leader or not?

its quite obvious that bob and de santos amongst others are dictators and should be removed from power.

Mugabe announced this morning, that white businesses may/will be seized what a cunt. All Mbeki does it sit there with the idea that they must realise them selves its wrogn and pick them selves up and not let the west do it. Well Thabo im about to die of asphixiation cause I have been holding my breath now for years. Your supposed comrades in arms, wernt the Zanu-PF they were Mugabe's opposition party.

Removed from power? Who? United Nations? Next part, who do you put in power? How long do you monitor the situation?
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B744F
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:57 am

The problem with the IMF and World Bank are that they force said countries to Americanize themselves. Basically they won't give you money unless you open up your markets to the wealthy nations who use and abuse your workers, and once the resources are dried, they bail. They stick said countries with high interest loans and programs not setup correctly, all to make a killing off the interest and make a killing off the profits to be taken. The only losers are the population and the winners are the leaders of both countries who enjoy great payoffs at the expense of taxpayer money and cut services in poor countries.

The Oil for Food program is just another example of corporations taking advantage of a situation, the same thing that happened with Rockafeller and others selling oil and goods to the Nazis before, and some say during the war.

The aid money needs to be expanded and given to countries in a benificial way as to help lift people out of poverty and help build them a system that will work for everyone and to make sure the same abuses used in the war contracts our country is giving in Afghanistan, Iraq, and others does not happen to anyone.
 
airbuzz
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Israel
Egypt
Colombia

Israel??? I didn't know Israel was a 3rd world country  Yeah sure
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 26):
The Oil for Food program is just another example of corporations taking advantage of a situation, the same thing that happened with Rockafeller and others selling oil and goods to the Nazis before, and some say during the war.

It does not help when you have a corrupt leader in power, isn't that where the problem really starts with??
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Superfly
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Airbuzz (Reply 27):
Israel??? I didn't know Israel was a 3rd world country

Which further begs the question; why are we sending them money?
What ever happened to fiscal conservatism?
This is a problem both parties (Democrats and Republicans) are guilty of.
Bring back the Concorde
 
rjpieces
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:32 am

Which further begs the question; why are we sending them money?

To be fair, most, if not all, of the aid is spent on the United States. From a fact sheet about US Foreign Aid:

Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel. By far the largest share remains with American defense contractors. Peter McPherson, former administrator of the Agency for International Development, estimated that every billion dollars of aid to Israel creates 60,000 to 70,000 jobs in the United States.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Superfly
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 28):
It does not help when you have a corrupt leader in power, isn't that where the problem really starts with??

For once, we agree!  Smile


Bring back the Concorde
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:49 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 28):
It does not help when you have a corrupt leader in power, isn't that where the problem really starts with??

Also in reference to B744Fs post: I have worked within this international system. And in fact not only the leaders you refer to are corrupt, but the IMF WB system per se is. B744F has a point. And I wonder about the cooperation of these leaders, you correctly assign tb corrupt, with Western Governmentns and MNCs.. corruption always has a minimum of two actors. The market-reform and decentralization programmes (the latter is supposed to bring NO Goverment and NOT SELF Government!) are an attempt to emerge new markets for Western MNCs.. Trade is important and good, but there is a need for equal trading partners.. (see the infant industry argument). I have lost my faith in the UN, Worldbank, thanks to Mr Bush, my a$$hole president
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 32):
Mr Bush, my a$$hole president

when looking at the picture "Superfly" posted, I think it is NOT a$$hole but mentally retarded.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 32):
I have lost my faith in the UN, Worldbank, thanks to Mr Bush, my a$$hole president

This has been going on for decades, long before Bush was President.
 
Ibhayi
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:23 am

RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:12 am

The Un and all of them do nothing, Mugabe finally talked some sense when he said the IMF has done nothing for us and many others.

Any way, look at the aid with conditions, we will lend u $100 mill if u buy X products which are all manufactured in the country where the aid comes from so its not that their nice guys but it is to help their own country
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Should Aid Be Stopped To 3rd World Countries?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:29 pm

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 35):
Any way, look at the aid with conditions, we will lend u $100 mill if u buy X products which are all manufactured in the country where the aid comes from so its not that their nice guys but it is to help their own country

Exactly the point! It's called "Market Reforms".. the thing is that it is unfair to have unequal trading partners. People don't realize (or don't want to realize) that the key lies in local markets (which can have both local and global products). All the developments are leading to universalism, standardization of products and values, in a scenario where only the strongest (MNCs) will survive.. this all is so complex

By the way, congratulations to the thread starter for a wonderful topic.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)

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