Bofredrik
Topic Author
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Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:32 am

UK have a socialist government, same with France, Germany, Sweden and from today also Norway. + many other European states. And none of them is anything like China, North Korea or the former USSR or DDR?

So??????????????????????????????
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:35 am

Corporate America certainly isn’t afraid of socialism as long as they are on the receiving end.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:39 am

Because I'm not going to work my ass off to pay for someone elses laziness.

Socialism breeds dependence. America is about independence, although many in here are confused on that issue...

[Edited 2005-09-13 18:42:57]
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:41 am

It goes against everything the United States is built on. Although the United States and Europe have tons in common, there are some very distinct American values when it comes to work ethic, etc.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Matt D
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:43 am

Same can be said of individuals. It's easy to be altruistic as long as you are spending someone elses money.

The bottom line is plain old fashioned work ethic and self respect: Why should I have to get up every morning and spend my 8 or 10 hours a day only to have a third, half, or all of my hard earned dollars doled out to someone else?

And finally, America did not get to be the economic powerhouse that it is by subscribing to "something for everyone". As an example, where is the incentive to better oneself or work harder if everyone is going toi "get the same"? I'll just push a broom and empty trash cans. Why bother trying to earn a degree or that promotion? I'm just going to lose that money anyway.

Many of us just don't like the idea of working to support a total stranger. And we sure as hell don't need the government telling us how to spend our money. Many people are charitable and give accordingly. Let US decide who gets what and how much.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:48 am

Because it says "in god we trust" on the US money, socialism has been linked in the past with atheist....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
IADBGO
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:51 am

Americans are against it because you call it socialism. If you want Americans to like it, don't call it socialism. If most Americans read about Sweeden, UK, Norway etc they would see that those nations are not Socialist nations...they are social democracies. Comments like,

Quote:
Because I'm not going to work my ass off to pay for someone elses laziness.

show how little Americans understand about the system. My wife is in Norway now and I have studied the system for the last six years. It has its perks, it has its problems...it isn't everyone's cup of tea. In America we are ok if people don't have insurance, in most of Europe they think that is terrible. In Europe they don't mind paying higher (this is really only slightly higher) taxes because they feel that everyone should have health insurance. (obviously health insurance is only one issue here but it is one that is bashed the most in America) But this is going to become a circular argument very quickly

IADBGO
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:55 am

Iadbgo:
Well said!

Tobacco farmers don't seem to have a problem with socialism.
Here we call it subsidies. It's all about symantics.
Bring back the Concorde
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:58 am

I don't like socialism becuase it involves too much government. Remember, the first rule is, anything that the government touches becomes a huge bloated money pit. Take universal healthcare here in the states. Can you imagine turning this into a government agency? Talk about a recipe for disaster. Huge taxes and bloated government...just what we need.

I don't like a big government. I think it's big enough already and has enough problems. In my city they can't even build a bridge right, and I am to trust them to provide social services? (I know the city wouldn't but just another example of bad gov't). I don't need the gov't telling me what to do more than they already do.
This is the Last Stop.
 
IADBGO
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:06 am

Quote:
Take universal healthcare here in the states. Can you imagine turning this into a government agency? Talk about a recipe for disaster. Huge taxes and bloated government...just what we need.

I don't agree or disagree with this but there are nations out there with universal healthcare that is not a bloated system. Besides, this is the US if anyone is going to provide inovative care it is going to be us. The last election is a good example of how "socialism" scares America. Kerry said, "You go to your doctor and the government pays your bill". (I know not quite that simple) The moment those words escaped his mouth conservatives blew a fuse. The real problem in America with socialism is the perception that it causes stagnation. Americans don't think of social programs as dynamic...partly because we have social security around our necks. But that isn't a reason not to inovate and create new, well designed programs.
Taxes don't have to be higher...and the point about ag subsidies is well said...Americans are more than willing to take a subside but hate to pay for it.


IADBGO

edit spelling

[Edited 2005-09-13 19:07:33]

[Edited 2005-09-13 19:09:04]
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:08 am

The one thing I like about democracies with social programs is health insurance -- even safety nets. I heard stories this week about how Katrina evacuees are stuck because they don't have a job and many don't qualify for Medicare/Medicaid. Who foots the bill for those? All of us.

I argue that the cost of a health insurance program, even a safety net, is not as bad as many make it out to be. Think of the hidden costs we pay for anyway -- lost employee productivity time due to illness not covered by insurance, the costs hospitals bear from patients that can't pay because they don't have insurance, the cost to corporations to buy insurance for their employees, the cost of prescription drugs, etc.

Norway, Canada, New Zealand, etc., -- all with some measure of social programs -- are rated consistently as the best places to live in the world.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Iadbgo (Reply 6):
show how little Americans understand about the system. My wife is in Norway now and I have studied the system for the last six years. It has its perks, it has its problems...it isn't everyone's cup of tea. In America we are ok if people don't have insurance, in most of Europe they think that is terrible. In Europe they don't mind paying higher (this is really only slightly higher) taxes because they feel that everyone should have health insurance. (obviously health insurance is only one issue here but it is one that is bashed the most in America) But this is going to become a circular argument very quickly

And comments like this show that in all your studying of Europe you have little understanding of our own American System.

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 10):
I heard stories this week about how Katrina evacuees are stuck because they don't have a job and many don't qualify for Medicare/Medicaid. Who foots the bill for those? All of us.

Now put that in a context of a devistated Europe after WWII and you understand why there are socialistic democracies in Europe. They could only depend on their governement after the war. There was little left.

[Edited 2005-09-13 19:14:18]
 
IADBGO
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:15 am

Quote:
And comments like this show that in all your studying of Europe you have little understanding of our own American System.

I'll make sure to go home and burn my Bachelors and Masters Degrees in American Government tonight after I leave my job in the US Capitol Building.

Could you make an arguement against what I say instead of calling me an idiot?


IADBGO
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:20 am

If you could raise a generation of children in a pure socialist environment, then a socialist state might work, somewhere. If I'd never had the pleasure of, say, owning a Lincoln, watching a big screen TV, or living in an expensive home, then I'd have no trouble joining the rest of the worker bees driving the same car, living in the same house, and watching the same TV, as everyone else.

Trouble is, most everyone has had a taste of the good old fashioned capitalism pie, and even though one may not get as big a slice as someone else, we all want more.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
And comments like this show that in all your studying of Europe you have little understanding of our own American System.

Wow, what a well thought-out response. No doubt you're going to elaborate on that...

It seems that Americans identify socialism with North Korea and the likes. I agree that it's just the name that scares them, together with some simplified idea of what modern Western-European socialism is about.

Healthcare is a beautiful example of a social program that is beneficial to everyone in the society. To take my country as an example: we get all the healthcare you (the ones who have health insurance that is) get in the US, but everyone gets it and we pay far less for it. Yes indeed, we pay LESS for healthcare than you do.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 12):
I'll make sure to go home and burn my Bachelors and Masters Degrees in American Government tonight after I leave my job in the US Capitol Building.

Could you make an arguement against what I say instead of calling me an idiot?

All that education and you somehow came up me calling you an idiot? Maybe you didn't learn much or your just a jaded oversensative liberal. Either way, you and the rest of your party don't get it.
 
IADBGO
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:29 am

Quote:
If you could raise a generation of children in a pure socialist environment, then a socialist state might work, somewhere. If I'd never had the pleasure of, say, owning a Lincoln, watching a big screen TV, or living in an expensive home, then I'd have no trouble joining the rest of the worker bees driving the same car, living in the same house, and watching the same TV, as everyone else.

While I agree with you that the only way to have a socialist society is to start one from the beginning. The rest of what you say shows you have never been to one of these countries. If you went to say Norway or Sweden you would see that everything you say they don't have...infact they have an abundance of. You see as many BMW's in Norway as you do in Washington DC. Houses are not the slums that you seem to think they are. Get out of your hole and see the world before you condemn it
 
IADBGO
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:31 am

Quote:
All that education and you somehow came up me calling you an idiot? Maybe you didn't learn much or your just a jaded oversensative liberal. Either way, you and the rest of your party don't get it.

1. I work for a Republican and vote Republican
2. You told me I didn't learn anything in all that time, no you didn't call me an idiot and I apoligize for my presumption.


IADBGO

[Edited 2005-09-13 19:32:49]
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 14):
It seems that Americans identify socialism with North Korea and the likes. I agree that it's just the name that scares them, together with some simplified idea of what modern Western-European socialism is about.

No, we clearly identify it with Europe. We're pretty damn clear on that.
 
Matt D
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:33 am

It is indeed a fascinating country we live in. I see the costs not-so-easily quantified in dollars and cents vís-a-vís having an overall healthy society (better work productivity and the like). Indeed, I would support such a program-if it could somehow be ran without all of the bricks of bloated big Government attached to it and at less cost to all of us. Indeed, I would love to see some kind of proposal to see how it could be done.

but therein lies the problem.

The other side of the coin is that Americans are some of the most self centered selfish arrogant people on the face of the planet. C'mon...let's be honest. We are.

For that reason, there are those among us (perhaps even to some degree I myself am guilty of this) who would rather pay twice the cost we otherwise might for healthcare rather than give a "free ride" for someone else.

Just out of spite.

That said, however, there should still be some restrictions in place....like absolutely, positively giving NOTHING to illegal aliens and their children.

If it becomes a matter of Public Safety, then quarantine them just like we did with the Lepers.

But eliminate that incentive for them to come here. American citizens...lets take care of them.

illegal aliens...I don't give a shit if all they want is an aspirin and a thimble of water. If its funded by taxpayers, don't give it to them. They don't deserve it.
 
Pope
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 9):
but there are nations out there with universal healthcare that is not a bloated system.

What nation approximately/comparable to the population of the US has universal healthcare that is not bloated?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 16):
Get out of your hole and see the world before you condemn it

Funny, I have, and I didn't think I was condemning anyone.....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
The other side of the coin is that Americans are some of the most self centered selfish arrogant people on the face of the planet. C'mon...let's be honest. We are.

F'n A. What do you expect from a people who fled to have the freedom to do as they please without the Government sticking their nose into everything.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
That said, however, there should still be some restrictions in place....like absolutely, positively giving NOTHING to illegal aliens and their children.

Ditto... That's half the problem. The solution is simple. Change the law. You're born here? Fine, you have the nationality of your parents and are not a US citizen. Build maternity wards on the boarder, they have a kid and get sent back. This is one reason we left California. I have no problem with legal immigration or even work permit systems, but when half the hospitals go belly up, bi-lingual education becomes damn near mandatory and you can't even find an english speaking gardner or construction worker, you have a major problem.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 16):
You see as many BMW's in Norway as you do in Washington DC.

And Hummers in Germany as you do in California.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 17):
All that education and you somehow came up me calling you an idiot? Maybe you didn't learn much or your just a jaded oversensative liberal. Either way, you and the rest of your party don't get it.


1. I work for a Republican and vote Republican

Ouch.. that must really hurt for our friend Boeing7E7... In fact, that's the second time his assumptions have backfired on him like that (there was the whole pathetic 'all the other countries don't want to help us with Katrina' bullcrap a while ago, for which he still hasn't apologised)

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 18):
No, we clearly identify it with Europe. We're pretty damn clear on that.

Well, as is constantly shown by many on these boards, your idea of what socialism is is closer to North Korea than it is to real modern socialism as it exists in Europe.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
The other side of the coin is that Americans are some of the most self centered selfish arrogant people on the face of the planet. C'mon...let's be honest. We are.

You said it, not us. But I agree, from reading posts on this in the past, that that is precisely the main reason why Americans are opposed to universal healthcare. The whole idea of 'there's NO WAY that I am going to pay for someone else's healthcare'. Guess what: you're already doing that, and you're paying far more than under universal healthcare.
 
IADBGO
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:46 am

Quote:
What nation approximately/comparable to the population of the US has universal healthcare that is not bloated?

There are non, I'm not going to lie about that. However, I would say that just because it hasn't been tried doesn't not mean that it won't work. Plus I would say that there is no good reason to believe that a system would not work at a macro (large nation) level. Yes it is a big system for America, but that is why I like innovation...if an inovative system can be created it might work, it might not.

IADBGO
 
Arniepie
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting TriStarEnvy (Reply 13):
If you could raise a generation of children in a pure socialist environment, then a socialist state might work, somewhere. If I'd never had the pleasure of, say, owning a Lincoln, watching a big screen TV, or living in an expensive home, then I'd have no trouble joining the rest of the worker bees driving the same car, living in the same house, and watching the same TV, as everyone else.

What are you brabbeling about?
Living standards in a lot of the Socialists countrys are as high as they are in the US besides that, in general there are a lot less people living under the poverty line (IIRC between 15 and 20% in the States and between 4-8% in western Europe) in industrialized country's that also have an important socialist party in their parliaments.
What you are talking about is Communism, a totally different ballgame.

Quoting TriStarEnvy (Reply 13):
Trouble is, most everyone has had a taste of the good old fashioned capitalism pie, and even though one may not get as big a slice as someone else, we all want more.

In almost all purely Capitalist country's it is only a limited portion of the population that actually enjoys these riches.

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 8):
I don't like socialism becuase it involves too much government. Remember, the first rule is, anything that the government touches becomes a huge bloated money pit.

That is indeed a possible danger when you talk about socialist influence.
If they have too much influence they tend to seriously overspend on the budget, also they use things like the national post services or the railroad, etc... as a national work program without the intent to make it profitable.
These things are better left to the free market.

That is why I think that a country with a left, center and right based party system (from communism to capitalism and everything in between) is the best solution on the long run.
If they want to have a working government they will have to compromise on certain things and as such reach the middle of the road which as a general rule is usually the best place to be.
[edit post]
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 24):
In fact, that's the second time his assumptions have backfired on him like that (there was the whole pathetic 'all the other countries don't want to help us with Katrina' bullcrap a while ago, for which he still hasn't apologised)

And won't, especially you're taking me out of context. I spent a week helping people evacuate. What have you done?

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 24):
Well, as is constantly shown by many on these boards, your idea of what socialism is is closer to North Korea than it is to real modern socialism as it exists in Europe.

Strike two. That's more a Communist/Dictatorship hi-bred.

Wanna go for strike three?
 
airbuzz
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 17):
1. I work for a Republican and vote Republican

Boeing7E7  flamed 

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 26):
What are you brabbeling about?
Living standards in a lot of the Socialists countrys are as high as they are in the US besides that, in general there are a lot less people living under the poverty line

Well, It's difficult to explain to some American friends, that also in democratic-socialist Europe there are refrigerators, luxury cars and yes, we eat at least twice daily (and IMHO better quality products, at least without inflating hormones).

We have a lot of taxes, but we still prefer paying them for free warfare instead of increasing the difference between rich and poor people.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
The other side of the coin is that Americans are some of the most self centered selfish arrogant people on the face of the planet. C'mon...let's be honest. We are.

For that reason, there are those among us (perhaps even to some degree I myself am guilty of this) who would rather pay twice the cost we otherwise might for healthcare rather than give a "free ride" for someone else.

Interesting analysis, Matt D.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 17):
I work for a Republican and vote Republican

Wolf in Sheeps clothing, or a moderate?
 
Bofredrik
Topic Author
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 2):
Because I'm not going to work my ass off to pay for someone elses laziness.

To have a general health insurance for the entire population has nothing to do with laziness. And i think that this is the basic... And a part of a state with a socialistic government.
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 3):
It goes against everything the United States is built on. Although the United States and Europe have tons in common, there are some very distinct American values when it comes to work ethic, etc.

I think that we work hard here to... But we want to have some basic support in our lives to feel secure and also that we are a country where all citizens is valued.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
And won't, especially you're taking me out of context.

There was nothing to take out of context: you said no countries had offered help, and you pretty damn snotty and arrogant about it too. Not to mention you were wrong. End of story.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
I spent a week helping people evacuate. What have you done?

Same thing you would do if something like this happened in Belgium. But I wouldn't be bitching about things and insulting the rest of the world for something I didn't know the first thing about (like whether they had offered any help or not)

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
Strike two. That's more a Communist/Dictatorship hi-bred.

How on earth is that a 'strike'??? It is exactly how many Americans see socialism. Enough evidence here on these boards.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
Wanna go for strike three?

You'd have to go through strikes one and two first, and that hasn't happened by a long shot...
 
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sebolino
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 4):
Many of us just don't like the idea of working to support a total stranger. And we sure as hell don't need the government telling us how to spend our money.

So it means that you decided as well as other Americans to spend 200 billions dollars in Iraq ?
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:13 am

quote=Superfly,reply=7]Tobacco farmers don't seem to have a problem with socialism. Here we call it subsidies. It's all about symantics.
[/quote]

TRUE! But US is always talking about freedom and free trade...
 
B744F
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:14 am

It's very simple. People want to pretend they are "better" than everyone else. And in a Capitalistic system, there are winners and losers. The winners like to pretend they are smarter and deserve all the money then can make while everyone else is just lazy and deserves nothing but to shine their shoes.

A hybrid capitalism-socialism system is the future. It allows competition but makes sure nobody is left behind and starving like our country and countless others do
 
TedTAce
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 35):

A hybrid capitalism-socialism system is the future.

Not in the US.
This space intentionally left blank
 
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sebolino
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
UK have a socialist government, same with France, Germany, Sweden and from today also Norway.

In fact it's not true for France, but even a right wing government can't destroy the social system.
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 34):
TRUE! But US is always talking about freedom and free trade...

Do I have the freedom to buy medicine from Canada?
Bring back the Concorde
 
satx
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Corporate America certainly isn�t afraid of socialism as long as they are on the receiving end.

 checkmark 

Quoting Iadbgo (Reply 6):
In America we are ok if people don't have insurance

They have insurance. It's called 'no active hospital can refuse to give life-saving treatment and must absorb the cost if the patient can't pay for it' LOL!

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 8):
I don't like socialism becuase it involves too much government. Remember, the first rule is, anything that the government touches becomes a huge bloated money pit

Exactly, just like that unbelievable energy bill we just saw.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
And comments like this show that in all your studying of Europe you have little understanding of our own American System.

Your posts are some of the most naive, unbalanced, irrational, and arrogant comments I've ever read on this or any other board, and that's about as nicely as I can put it.

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 12):

Could you make an arguement against what I say instead of calling me an idiot?

No, he can't. Trust me.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
Either way, you and the rest of your party don't get it.

A 'counter point' isn't actually a counter point unless it has a legitimate point to begin with.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 24):
Guess what: you're already doing that, and you're paying far more than under universal healthcare.

 checkmark  Too true. I think some Americans would rather pay more so long as it at least looked like they weren't paying for anyone else's healthcare, even if they were in the end (indirectly, through higher premiums and co-pays that help offset the unfunded cost of patients who can't afford to pay their emergency room bills).

Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
What nation approximately/comparable to the population of the US has universal healthcare that is not bloated?

The US already has 'universal healthcare' in a sense, because you can't be refused life-saving treatment. However, this is indeed bloated because it only comes into effect once your life is already in danger and thus will most likely require the most expensive forms of treatment possible. Not surprisingly, some of these patients are lost anyway, thanks at least in part to the late detection and treatment, and thus all that expensive emergency assistance goes to waste.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
Wolf in Sheeps clothing, or a moderate?

Oh yes, don't forget to inform folks of the infamous 'RINO' term given to any republican who isn't a 100% brainwashed monkey just yet. Members like you are why I'll never be a fellow republican.  Big grin
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1429
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 35):
It's very simple. People want to pretend they are "better" than everyone else. And in a Capitalistic system, there are winners and losers. The winners like to pretend they are smarter and deserve all the money then can make while everyone else is just lazy and deserves nothing but to shine their shoes.

Human nature I guess, looking for a reason why they are so well off while others struggle so hard.
Some people are born in privileged conditions (good health, good brain, loving and caring parents, a good neighborhood,wealthy, good looks,..) or sometimes pure luck and instead of admitting it they got it easy ,they like to believe that everything they have are things they deserve for whatever reason.
A lot of people want to believe they where the underdog (usually an illusion) and made it on there own and therefore everybody else who didn't achieve the same level have only themselves to thank for it.
An easy way to reason their way out of being compassionate or "social" towards the have nots.

[Edited 2005-09-13 21:37:03]
[edit post]
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 22):
Fine, you have the nationality of your parents and are not a US citizen.

Good luck changing the Constitution

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
I myself am guilty of this) who would rather pay twice the cost we otherwise might for healthcare rather than give a "free ride" for someone else.

Complain about paying for the health and welfare of poor people yet turn a blind eye to corporate welfare like the war in Iraq, the reconstruction after the Hurricaine and flooding, and the massive amount of taxes we all have to pay so the top 1% and corporations get to pay less.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
That said, however, there should still be some restrictions in place....like absolutely, positively giving NOTHING to illegal aliens and their children.

And go against the principals of what our Country was founded on?

Quoting Matt D (Reply 19):
illegal aliens...I don't give a shit if all they want is an aspirin and a thimble of water. If its funded by taxpayers, don't give it to them. They don't deserve it.

Silly me. Here I thought the Constitution was setup to protect everyone, not just an American citizen.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:00 pm

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 10):
Norway, Canada, New Zealand, etc., -- all with some measure of social programs -- are rated consistently as the best places to live in the world.

The US has some measure of federal social programs as well. Medicare/Medicaid, Section 8 housing (which is not "the projects" --it's housing in "normal" complexes and communities), food stamps, the list goes on and on.

In addition to that, the level of corporate and personal giving is astonishing.
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1429
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:08 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 42):
The US has some measure of federal social programs as well. Medicare/Medicaid, Section 8 housing (which is not "the projects" --it's housing in "normal" complexes and communities), food stamps, the list goes on and on.

I don't think the quantity of money is the issue in the US, it's the inefficiency on how it is used.
It is a well known fact that the EU country's get a lot more out of each dollar (or Euro) they spend on social services.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 42):
In addition to that, the level of corporate and personal giving is astonishing.

A lot, yes but still less than the average western European citizen (private donations that is).
[edit post]
 
767Lover
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:11 pm

Okay, let's look at this another way:

One of my best friends lived in Amsterdam for 6 years until recently. I visited her on several occasions.

1. While I was there, we visited some friends of hers -- a married couple, one was a US citizen. Both were educated and well-employed. Anyway, I was marveling at how amazing their apartment was. It was very large, well constructed with mouldings, high ceilings, etc. and overlooked a beautiful park.

They told me it was PUBLIC HOUSING and that they had applied and gotten approved for this great apartment. She (a Manhattanite who appreciates 'scoring' a great apartment) seemed all pleased with herself for snagging such a great deal. They were paying practically nothing for it.

I was a bit offended, because I kept thinking, "but THIS isn't what public housing is for. There are people who really can't afford a place to live or who aren't educated enough to work and here you people are 'taking' a public housing slot that could have gone to someone who REALLY needs it."

2. Another friend of my friend owns a huge B&B. He is also an American (New Yorker) and when I was visiting, was speaking of his upcoming vacation and his various remodeling projects, etc. He obviously does quite well, plus he mentioned he had some family money. Anyway, he started talking about how great it is that he gets free healthcare, blah blah blah, and "I have to wait a longer time to get treatment, but it's worth it" and "they screwed up my surgery the first time, but I went back and they repaired it." Again, I'm thinking this guy can AFFORD insurance and yet he's being given it for free, taking resources away from some other person who REALLY can't afford healthcare.

THAT is the problem I have with as you put it "socialism."
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1429
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 44):
One of my best friends lived in Amsterdam for 6 years until recently

Let me stop you right there.
Of all places the Netherlands are probably the worst example because they have a notorious lack of decent housing (too many peoples, not enough space).
She doesn't have a real "public house" but they probably went on a waiting list from a housing federation and got a good house for which they still paid a lot of money without any funding support.

What you mean are "sociale woningen" or social housing which is intended for the low income family's, that is another type of living.

In Holland you can be rich and still have no house simply because there are non available (or something they really don't want).
One of the main reasons ,besides tax benefits, why so many Dutch family's go live abroad (Belgium and Germany) as soon as they can.
My brother in law is born and raised in the Amsterdam area and he always, up until today, worked in Holland but he and my sister decided to live in Antwerpen (Belgium) because conditions are SO much better.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 44):
2. Another friend of my friend owns a huge B&B. He is also an American (New Yorker) and when I was visiting, was speaking of his upcoming vacation and his various remodeling projects, etc. He obviously does quite well, plus he mentioned he had some family money. Anyway, he started talking about how great it is that he gets free healthcare, blah blah blah, and "I have to wait a longer time to get treatment, but it's worth it" and "they screwed up my surgery the first time, but I went back and they repaired it." Again, I'm thinking this guy can AFFORD insurance and yet he's being given it for free, taking resources away from some other person who REALLY can't afford healthcare.

Well first , if they fucked up his operation is bad for him but has nothing to do with the system itself.
BTW the level of expertise in the EU is certainly not worse than in the US.
The reason he had to wait is because of the way patient care is organized in the Netherlands (or UK), in Belgium there is virtually no waiting list.
Also if you are well of (owns a B&B= own boss) , you do have to be privately insured in most of the EU member states.

What I like about our "socialist" system is that no matter who insures you (private or public) you get the same treatment by the same doctors.
Not a high quality care level for the rich and lucky and a somewhat shaky one for the rest.
[edit post]
 
767Lover
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 45):
What I like about our "socialist" system is that no matter who insures you (private or public) you get the same treatment by the same doctors.
Not a high quality care level for the rich and lucky and a somewhat shaky one for the rest.

Actually, at our "charity" hospital in Atlanta (Grady Memorial) you get some of the best-trained doctors in the country, because they have an affiliation with Emory University Medical Center. In fact, there's a saying around here that "if I get into a serious accident, take me to Grady."

My example about the AMS guy is not about the quality of treatment but about the fact that this RICH guy gets healthcare for next to nothing when he can clearly afford to pay for it.
 
767Lover
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 45):
In Holland you can be rich and still have no house simply because there are non available (or something they really don't want).

Odd, since my American friend (not the one in the public housing) had no problem finding and purchasing a flat in AMS. And she had a LOT of trouble selling her flat when she left (barely made a profit) as did her boyfriend on his flat.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 43):
A lot, yes but still less than the average western European citizen (private donations that is).

I would like to see a source on that.
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
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RE: Why Are USA So Afraid Of Socialism?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:04 pm

It all comes down to cultural differences. A socialist system will never work in the States, and neither will American style governence work anywhere else.

Which is why the American administered Iraq will have a constitution and government that looks nothing like the American one.

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