Superfly
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Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 am

Why is General Motors killing off all of its proud nameplates?

Fleetwood, Deville, Seville, Eldorado, Park Avenue, Roadmaster, Park Avenue, LeSabre, Regal, Century, Skylark, Bonneville, Grand Am, Camero, Firebird Trans Am and of course the Oldsmobile division.

Is there heart not in to it anymore?
Does GM want to get out of the car business altogether?
Does GM expect to woo potential German car buyers with silly names such as SRX, CTS, XLR, HHR, G6, SSR BLX, ABC, 123?
Bring back the Concorde
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Grand Am

It goes in cycles. The Grand Am was always a bastard child looking for its identity anyway. Not the same significance for Pontiac as the Chieftain, Catalina, etc.

I think there'll be a resurgence in the future of classic car names to evoke a "romance of the road" when it works to their advantage. We're seeing that now with Chevy's revival of the Impala in yet another incarnation (but without the triple rear lights, damn them!).
International Homo of Mystery
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:39 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
We're seeing that now with Chevy's revival of the Impala in yet another incarnation

That already happened in 1994. This new Impala is front wheel drive.
WTF?
Big deal it gets a V8. It's still on a front drive platform.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Matt D
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:42 am

Because they are finally waking up to the fact that they can't rest on their laurels thinking that past success assures future success. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with stigma. Just look at Oldsmobile...the name alone says it all. "OLD".

Rightly or wrongly you simply cannot successfully market a name like that in a commercial featuring vehicles screaming down a closed road at 110, being driven by a hot couple in their 20's. It just won't work. They even admitted this in the last Olds ad campaign: "This is not your fathers Olds".

Same thing with Cadillac. That line still can't totally shake its image as an old geezer car, even with the revamped lineup and the revised logo, which is a lot less busy and doesn't feature the ducks.

Now as to why they don't want to market to the older crowd, I don't know. Many of those people certainly have money.
 
Matt D
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:45 am

AeroWesty hit the nail. They will revive those names when it suits. Not to get too political, but the Detroit Three represent everything that is wrong with American Corporate Values and why they still continue to get their asses handed to them by the Japanese:

They still think that "retro" and "REactive" is the way to do business versis innovative and PROactive like the Japanese and Euro carmakers.

I strongly recommend you watch the old movie "Gung Ho" to see what I mean. watch it twice. Once for humor and entertainment. And again to soak in the very clear, dead-on-the-money message it has.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:46 am

Superfly -

Recall when cars had names like Business Coupe, Club Sedan, Power Wagon, etc?

At least GM keeps the GTO name plate. Not a bad ride, either. Made Down Under and is a true dual.  Wink

Of course, Town Car is a legendary name!
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Big deal it gets a V8. It's still on a front drive platform.

It's interesting the Impala is getting a 5.3L V8. My 80's vintage Camaro had the 5.0L V8, and it wasn't weak sauce in any way shape or form, even with CA emissions on it. The late 90's vintage Bonneville I had came with the reworked 3.8L V6, and for a lumbering boat, it didn't lack for strength.

A little car like the current Impala with that size engine should shoot out of the gate like a little cigarette boat.
International Homo of Mystery
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:52 am

GM is trying to re-invent itself to a market place that is passing them by. Too many trucks, too many products that are done better by somebody else.

Remember when Pontiac went "alphanumeric" in 1982? T-1000, A-6000, J-2000? I think GM's name game is to lure in folks who only think of GM as the builder of cars that look the same, run badly, and are screwed together with great indifference. Face it, if you were a kid in the 80's who got lost in the parking lot looking for mom's Buick Century, that looked like that Olds Ciera, or that Pontiac A-6000....you might not have warm feelings in your heart for GM. Same if you got stuck on the way to prom 'cause dad's Olds 98 Diesel went boom. GM went from the dramatic and stylish full size cars of 71-76, and dumbed them down to the look alikes of '86 thru the ealy 1990's. Somewhat farcical examples, I know, but you get the idea.

Olds probably needed to die. Even the name sounds old fashioned. The division had no direction from the early 90's onward. Were it left to me, I'd have made Olds a "boutique' division that did unique, but low volume cars.

And when GM tried to be different, what did we get? Yes, I drive a classic example of GM trying to reinvent itself. Had the Aztek not had Hanna-Barberra styling, it might have made more sense. Same goes for the Avalanche, and Chevy SSR. Good ideas, but done poorly, or just too expensive. Why didn't GM respond to the Chrysler PT Cruiser, sooner?

Now, if they bring back "Grand Am" it will need to be attached to a car w/the "rubber duckie" nose!

[Edited 2005-09-13 20:55:06]

[Edited 2005-09-13 20:56:11]
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 3):
Now as to why they don't want to market to the older crowd, I don't know. Many of those people certainly have money.

..and that's the same question I've been asking.
There are PLENTY of older buyers that want a plush, luxurious car with gathered leather seats, woodgrain & chrome instrument panel and column gear-shift. Not every car buyer is looking for a 'young', 'hip' 'sporty' car.
That is what the Camero & Firebird Trans Ams were for.
Oooops, GM killed that line too.

I remembered that stupid; "This is not your fathers Olds" ad.
Hell I love to have an Oldsmobile 442 convertible as well as a Ninety Eight Regency.







I'd love to buy a new car today with this interior!  Cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 5):
At least GM keeps the GTO name plate. Not a bad ride, either. Made Down Under and is a true dual.

I agree. But I still prefer the real deal. I just look out in my driveway.
This is my effort to keep the GM reputation alive.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/777DadandJr/31205GTO2.jpg

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:58 am

GM globally is doing the same.

In Britain, Bedford was a long-established trademark for commercial vehicles. That bit the dust. They have ditched other brands such as Daewoo (although that was well and truly tarnished) in Korea. Their reasoning is that too many brands leads to confusion and lack of a corporate product identity because of it being split over different badges.

Models have also been rationalised with cars now having the same name and design in different countries. SAAB is also not looking too healthy with production gradually being shifted away from Sweden. Holden in Australia are also doing more European designed models. Vauxhall could potentially find itself rebadged as Opel before long.

Funnily enough GM cars are probably some of the best they've ever made at the moment. Certainly in Europe and Mexico.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
There are PLENTY of older buyers that want a plush, luxurious car with gathered leather seats

Fine Corinthian leather, anyone?  Smile

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 9):
I just look out in my driveway.

That is one sweet machine. You go.
International Homo of Mystery
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 5):
At least GM keeps the GTO name plate.

Which they stole (mostly) from Ferrari. Probably not one GTO owner or one General Motors employee in a hundred knew what it stood for. By the way, the Pontiac might have been called GT if you set really low standards, but it was not O.

http://www.web-cars.com/wallpaper/ferrari_gto_1_1280.html
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 10):
Funnily enough GM cars are probably some of the best they've ever made at the moment. Certainly in Europe and Mexico.

Very interesting to look at the Pontiac website at GM.com. Look at what's being sold in Mexico, and Canada. What the heck is a Pontiac G4?!?!? Or Pontiac Pursuit?

Pontiac of Mexico is selling a slick version of the Daewoo Matiz.

Hey, Superfly, that '68 98 is sweet. I had a '67, but it was a true four door hardtop....

[Edited 2005-09-13 21:04:24]
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:04 am

I've been thinking the past couple of years how strange it is that Cadillac is into racing in a big way, but they still don't have a car that cashes in on that appeal. Why roadrace when you are just selling to grandpa?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Hell I love to have an Oldsmobile 442 convertible

I'm searching for a 70-72 Rocket 350 - I do not want the 442 (or any 455 tho there is no replacement for displacement)  Wink

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 9):
I just look out in my driveway.

Nice Goat!  hearts 


Any comments on the new Chevy HHR? (a copy of the PT Cruiser)
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
A little car like the current Impala with that size engine should shoot out of the gate like a little cigarette boat.

...and exterior styling is as boring as boring gets. Same for the current GTO.

Quoting TriStarEnvy (Reply 7):
Face it, if you were a kid in the 80's who got lost in the parking lot looking for mom's Buick Century, that looked like that Olds Ciera, or that Pontiac A-6000..

It's the same think today with all the 'bubble' cars on the market.
Give a H-body Ninety Eight Regency or Electra Park Avenue Limited anyday over the new bland bubble on the market today.

TristarEnvy, you also forgot to include the T-1000 in your list.
The gentleman's Chevette.  Wink



Keep in mind, the LeSabre and Park Avenue were great seller before they were killed.
Bring back the Concorde
 
MrChips
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):

A little car like the current Impala with that size engine should shoot out of the gate like a little cigarette boat

If you can overcome the massive torque steer, that is.

As for what GM's problem is, well, let's just say that GM could use a complete tear-down and restoration.

To start with, they have way too many models overall...so many, in fact, that many of them compete against each other. For example, the Chevy Cobalt and the Saturn Ion...and these are just the North American based models. Unfortunately for the sentimental types in the crowd, part of the solution to this problem is to kill off marques and nameplates.

Second problem is that GM tries to have options for everyone, and all kinds of trim levels for their cars. Dare I say this, but they need to adapt a business model like that of Honda - there are three or four distinct option packages ranging from bare-bones to fully trimmed out, and anything else after that is a dealer option.

Another problem that GM seems to have is the horribly bland cars that they turn out. Apart from those fantastic Australian cars, a couple Cadillacs and the Corvette, most GM cars are entirely forgettable. The other two manufacturers in the Big Three each have one reasonably priced car that seems to be a "must have" (the new Mustang and the Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger/Magnum), whereas GM does not have anything of the sort. Of course, GM now has a world-beating supercar in the Corvette Z06 (and according to a friend at GM, that's just the start), but that car is out of the realm of the average person.

Finally, GM needs to spend some serious money on powertrain...their V8s are just fine, but they seem to have multitudes of problems with anything smaller. Fortunately, it seems as though they are starting to realise that - the Ecotec inline-4 "world engine" is a huge improvement over the previous generation, but they still have a long ways to go in that department. Also, the new 3.6 L V6 in the G6 (yet another world engine) is apperantly a very good powerplant as well.
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Fleetwood, Deville, Seville, Eldorado, Park Avenue, Roadmaster, Park Avenue, LeSabre, Regal, Century, Skylark, Bonneville, Grand Am, Camero, Firebird Trans Am

Bonneville? While I knew that H-body platform was on its way out, I would have thought that the name would have transferred to the platform to whatever platform Buick is using for its new Lucerne. It wouldn't be the first time that the Bonneville name was transferred from one platform to another.

Past examples:

Bonnevilles through '76 utilized the luxury-standard-sized C-body platform that was shared w/DeVille/Fleetwood/Electra 225/Olds 98.

'77-'81: the Bonneville name moved to the downsized (116" wb) B-body platform shared w/Impala/Caprice/Catalina/Delta 88/LeSabre.

'82-'86: the Bonneville name moved to the RWD mid-size G-body (formerly A-body) platform (shared w/Malibu/Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/Cutlass/Century/Regal.

'87-'05: Following the demise of both the B-body Parisienne and the G-body Bonneville, the name moves to the FWD H-body (Delta 88/LeSabre) where it's been since.

Personally, I didn't care for the looks of the '92-current Bonnevilles because they looked like poorly-done BMW clones.

Not to nitpick, but you forgot about the Caprice and Electra (although you mentioned Park Avenue twice).

As far as the issue of GM retiring their veteran nameplates is concerned, mind you that I'm in agreement with you on this one: the reasoning could very well be that most (not all) of today's buyers don't identify with the older names at all unless their talking about their grandparents' cars. Most younger buyers along with their parents have only owned or grown up with either trucks/SUVs and/or import models.

So most of the veteran GM car names mean nothing to them except maybe "Oh, that's the old gas hog my [insert choice older relative here] drives or used to drive."

It's sad but unfortunately true... at least in the minds of GM's marketing department. so it seems.

At least Chevy has kept the Impala, Monte Carlo, & Corvette nameplates although the first two vehicles (restyled for 2006) are shadows of their RWD predecessors.

To my knowledge, Pontiac has kept the Grand Prix & GTO labels alive for 2006; although the current GTO to me is an insult to its '60s & '70s predecessors.

To sum it all up, nameplate loyalty let alone brand loyalty isn't what it once was.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:15 am

God damn it Superfly for the last time ever.

CAMARO not Camero.
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
TristarEnvy, you also forgot to include the T-1000 in your list.
The gentleman's Chevette.

My dad rented one to come to my college graduation in 1985. It was white. that's the best that can be said for it.

Hey, if they had put the Diesel in it, too, like the Chevette! (I'd STILL be driving home form the ceremony in it)

Clatter-clatter-clatter.....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
andz
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Fleetwood, Deville, Seville, Eldorado, Park Avenue, Roadmaster, Park Avenue, LeSabre, Regal, Century, Skylark, Bonneville, Grand Am, Camero, Firebird Trans Am and of course the Oldsmobile division.

There isn't one name there I'd be seen dead in.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Fine Corinthian leather, anyone?

That was a Chrysler feature.  Smile

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
I've been thinking the past couple of years how strange it is that Cadillac is into racing in a big way, but they still don't have a car that cashes in on that appeal. Why roadrace when you are just selling to grandpa?

I agree.
The curret fleet of Cadillacs are decent cars but those should have been in the Oldsmobile line up instead of killing the brand. Cadillac should have an answer to the Town Car, S-Class, Vanden Plas, LS-series and 7-series.
It's as if Cadillac no longer wants to be a luxury brand. They rather market Suburbans with Cadillac emblems to gangsters with gold teeth.

Look at when Chrysler is doing with the 300C and Magnum. They are having lots of success with there tradition American style sedan & wagon.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 18):
To sum it all up, nameplate loyalty let alone brand loyalty isn't what it once was.

You may be right but I don't think GM is that smart of a company to realize that.
The Skylark name lasted for several generations and it's the one from the late 1960s (already over 35 year old name) that that is the most desirable.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:24 am

Andz:
That's too bad because those are all some fine automobiles.
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:31 am

GM needs an answer to the Magnum. And do it with a....wait for it....clamshell reargate like the 71-76 big wagons.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
andz
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Andz:
That's too bad because those are all some fine automobiles.

That may be so but there is more to a name than meets the eye....think of the Nova (doesn't go) or the emmerdeux (MR2).... there is no accounting for personal preference.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
This new Impala is front wheel drive.
...
Big deal it gets a V8. It's still on a front drive platform.

I guess Chevy might be trying to whoo some police department contracts that it lost over the last 10 years with that option. Although, more of them will probably be more interested in the V8-powered RWD Dodge Charger police package; unless the FWD Chevy can post significantly better mileage figures. Sadly, fuel costs might be coming more of an issue with local police departments than in past years.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 17):
Of course, GM now has a world-beating supercar in the Corvette Z06 (and according to a friend at GM, that's just the start), but that car is out of the realm of the average person.

The HHR might resonate saleswise with the average buyer in the same way that the PT Cruiser did at Chrysler a few years ago. As long as it's not plagued with problems.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 26):
The HHR might resonate saleswise with the average buyer in the same way that the PT Cruiser did at Chrysler a few years ago. As long as it's not plagued with problems.

I think the HHR is a "too little, too late" response to the PT Cruiser. It's not all that impressive in person. I saw one at an Enterprise Rental store, and thought it was an SUV with four flat tires. If they price it right, and it stays bolted together, it'll probably sell, but NOT in the numbers and with the same way the PT did. The PT was a "gotta have it" car, while the HHR will be a "well, I'd rather have something else, but the price is good" deal.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
FlyingTexan
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Gran Turismo Omologato

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
Probably not one GTO owner or one General Motors employee in a hundred knew what it stood for.

Gas, Tires, and Oil?

No.


Gran Turismo Omologato?



Do I get the prize?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
The gentleman's Chevette.

Bawaahaha!  rotfl  I had a friend in high school with a Chitvette Scooter model.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
They rather market Suburbans with Cadillac emblems to gangsters with gold teeth.

With Martini glasses etched in ‘em.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 4):

I strongly recommend you watch the old movie "Gung Ho" to see what I mean. watch it twice. Once for humor and entertainment. And again to soak in the very clear, dead-on-the-money message it has.

Yes, if management actually accepts labor as part of the team, you will be successful and build 15,000 cars in 1 month

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
Probably not one GTO owner or one General Motors employee in a hundred knew what it stood for.

John Z. DeLorean did.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
concord977
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 9):
Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 5):
At least GM keeps the GTO name plate. Not a bad ride, either. Made Down Under and is a true dual.

I agree. But I still prefer the real deal. I just look out in my driveway.
This is my effort to keep the GM reputation alive.

Russ - beautiful car! I want a ride in that one.  Smile

Curt
No info
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Concord977 (Reply 30):
Russ - beautiful car! I want a ride in that one.

Thanks Curt! Since you're not too far away, I'd be glad to take you for a spin if you get up this way sometime.  bigthumbsup 

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
srbmod
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:52 am

Unfortunately, the idea of a retro modern version of a GM classic hasn't really happened. It's great that they brought back the GTO nameplate, problem is that it looks nothing like any GTO in history. The new Corvette is pretty damn sweet and really shows its' heritage in its' lines. The same is true for the SSR, which if they really wanted to sell it like crazy they shouldn't have made it as expensive as it is and named it the El Camino instead of using an acronym. What GM and Ford need to realize is that the SUV craze is pretty much over.

Of the Big 3 US auto makers, Chrysler seems to be the one on the ball with their latest offerings. The Chrysler 300C, the Dodge Charger, and the Dodge Magnum have squarely put them in the eyes of buyers. Dodge has also brought the Power Wagon name back on a version of the Ram truck. Some future models will be seeing the return of some old name plates. The Stratus name is going to be dropped and the mid-size Dodge product will be named Challenger or Avenger. The old AMC Rebel name is rumored to be put on the replacement on the Neon.
 
TUNisia
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:59 am

Maybe if they started to build safe cars, heavy cars, cars that don't look like plastic, and cars that actually feel great to drive then things would be different. Most GMs now are nothing more than plastic and cheap metal rustled together in what is called a car. It's a shame. Saab is the best "GM" product there is.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 33):
Maybe if they started to build safe cars, heavy cars, cars that don't look like plastic, and cars that actually feel great to drive then things would be different.

They have. The Buick Park Avenue, LeSabre Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham were VERY safe, reliable and well build cars. Every consumer report backs that up too. So what if they were an 'old mans car'.
They were fantastic old mens cars.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Matt D
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:48 am

C'mon...since when did 95% of consumers buy cars because of the safety features they may or may not have?

If your typical car shopper is sold on the cars looks/lines as well as gadgets (such as a remote control [yes, I've seen them] for the stereo), it really won't matter if there's a dog sled under the hood. Their mind is already made up.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:02 am

The 'herritage' is why GM (as well as Ford and Chrysler) have lost their maket share to Honda, Toyota, Nissian and other Japanese co's products. Over 35 years ago, the Japanese came in with fuel efficient cars, with sophicated engineering for the time and then expanded into larger cars and manufacturing in the USA without the old school, UAW high cost workers and legacy costs (just like our legacy airlines). The 'big 3' kept making cars and trucks based in the 1950's-1960's. The USA co's never had the interest in making smaller cars as not enough profit was being made and cheap oil. The workmanship and quality of American cars got worse and worse while the Japanese brands kept improving and surpassing American cars. Most importantly to the majority of drivers, most of the Japanese branded cars proved much more reliable on a day to day basis, with fewer breakdowns, well equiped, well designed and cheaper too. The Japanese co's cars don't really sell many to the rental markets either (ever see a Honda at the big rental co's lots - very rarely) and rarely have to discount their products with massive rebates to bribe you into their cars. They make money due to lower labor and overhead costs, so they can make a profit so can continue improvements and engineering with new models where the USA co's are never able to keep up.
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 35):
C'mon...since when did 95% of consumers buy cars because of the safety features they may or may not have?

If your typical car shopper is sold on the cars looks/lines as well as gadgets (such as a remote control [yes, I've seen them] for the stereo), it really won't matter if there's a dog sled under the hood. Their mind is already made up.

There are too many fickle-minded shoppers out there.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 36):
The workmanship and quality of American cars got worse and

Not really.
The traditional large American cars have always been reliable. The problem was the small cars that The Big Three introduced was not as reliable as there Japanese counterparts. The Cheverolet Vega/Monza, Citation/Omega/Pheonix/Skylark, Ford Pinto and even the Plymouth Volare (mid-size car) had recalls and didn't give as good of gas milage as there competition.
Interestingly the 1990s, GM made incredible 8-passenger stationwagons, and 6 passenger family sedans that were very reliable, uncompromising luxury & comfort, produced 260HP and get better milage than all minivans and some imported compacts.
Yes I am talking about there B-body platform (1994-1996 Fleetwood Brougham, Roadmaster, Estate wagon, Caprice Classic and Impala).
Once GM got it right with these cars, they didn't spend a penny advertising them and they axed them instead.
It's as if GM wants to go out of business.

[Edited 2005-09-14 00:50:50]

[Edited 2005-09-14 00:51:41]
Bring back the Concorde
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 28):
Gran Turismo Omologato?


Do I get the prize?

Yes, the "Grand Prix"

My wheels back when the GTO was around was a Corvair with the John Fitch handling mods. Underpowered, and no brakes worth mentioning, but it did corner okay.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
aa757first
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 35):
C'mon...since when did 95% of consumers buy cars because of the safety features they may or may not have?

Anymore, I would say safety is a major factor in buying a car.

AAndrew
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 40):
Anymore, I would say safety is a major factor in buying a car.

No.
People 'claim' safety is a major factor in buying a car.
They choose the 'feeling' of safety when buying a car.

There would have never been a SUV craze if 'safety' really was an issue.
SUVs sure 'feel' safe but is only safe to the skilled driver.
Most SUV owners today still drive then like a compact sedan.
Bring back the Concorde
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
Most SUV owners today still drive then like a compact sedan.

Especially in a parking lot!
I can't tell you how many times I've seen a petite woman driving one of these behemoth's and taking 6 tries to get it in a parking space at the mall.
It used to be that I didn't park my car next to a car with long doors, for fear of the dreaded "ding."
Now I don't park anywhere near an SUV. I've seen my share of SUV's scrape a bumper down the side of the car parked next to it. The driver is usually oblivious to it, since they can't see it, let alone feel it.
I just shake my head, right down the license number and leave it, with my name on the windhield of the damaged car.
The other thing I hate is seeing is 100's of these goliaths, trundleing down the highway in the morning, with only one passenger. A Suburban 2500 sure makes an excellent commuter vehicle.  sarcastic 
And even at $3 dollars/gallon, they're still selling like crazy.

Back on topic though, the problem with GM (General Mediocrity) can be summed up in one word: Trucks!
It's unbelievable how many different trucks GM makes. I mean really, what's the point of the GMC Truck Division? Every truck GMC makes is available in one of the other divisions, just with a different grille. I don't get it.

SuperFly? Any thoughts?

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 42):
Back on topic though, the problem with GM (General Mediocrity) can be summed up in one word: Trucks!
It's unbelievable how many different trucks GM makes. I mean really, what's the point of the GMC Truck Division? Every truck GMC makes is available in one of the other divisions, just with a different grille. I don't get it.

SuperFly? Any thoughts?

It just gets my blood boiling!

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 42):
The other thing I hate is seeing is 100's of these goliaths, trundleing down the highway in the morning, with only one passenger.

These people don't even know what to do when they DO take then out to the mountians.
If you take I-80 between Sacramento and Reno in the winter, you'll see what I am talking about. Many of these owners think they can drive 75 MPH on black ice and in snow.
The vehicles you see being plucked from ditches are all newwe Lexus and Mercedes SUVs. Those of us driving old Continentals and Park Avenues as scooting along at a moderate pace with our trunks weighted down driving safely.
Bring back the Concorde
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
People 'claim' safety is a major factor in buying a car

Sunday, I went flying around a blind corner in the left lane of a crowded superhighway. I was met by a car standing still. Thank god for the excellent brakes on the Honda S2000, otherwise I’d be intimate with someone's rear bumper.

Once the traffic rubbernecked around the wreck about 10 cars ahead – low and behold a one car wreck. A Ford Explorer on its side.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:41 am

Going back to the name identity.
Mercedes S-class has always been there top line.
Same for 7-series with BMW and Vanden Plas for Jaguar.
Those have always been an older buyer just as the Fleetwood Brougham, Series Seventy Five, Electra and Ninety Eight Regency.
How come S-class and 7-series isn't associated with 'old mans car'?
Bring back the Concorde
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
These people don't even know what to do when they DO take then out to the mountians.

But, Oh,  sarcastic  I need four wheel drive so I can pull my mulch trailer into the back yard when I do landscaping in the spring!  rotfl 

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
Many of these owners think they can drive 75 MPH on black ice and in snow.
The vehicles you see being plucked from ditches are all newwe Lexus and Mercedes SUVs

Amen!

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
How come S-class and 7-series isn't associated with 'old mans car'?

Just my opinion, but I think that GM's biggest problem is styling. If you look at todays S-class and 7-series, they are very sporty, elegant cars that are fun to drive with styling that is world class. If you look at your traditional GM, let's say a Buick, they are very large, somewhat bland and more geared to an older generation. Not very many 25 year olds would be interested in buying an Allure or Impala because, they are quite boring cars. If GM wants to make a sports car, all they do is take a Grand Am and slap a spoiler on it and brand it a sports car. I don't even want to begin with the design flop that the new GTO is, yikes!

Look at Chrylser and what they have done in the last few years with Daimler. Look at the 300, Magnum, Charger, PT Cruiser and next year, the Caliber. Look at Ford with the Mustang. They all have style, character and personality. Now look at GM's line up .....  zzz 
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:56 am

My best friend, who worked in a body shop for 20 years always said to me:

"GM cars, always get old, befroe they get old."

That's why I wouldn't buy one (except of course, the classic in my driveway)  bigthumbsup 

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Is General Motors Ashamed Of Its Heritage?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:04 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 47):
Now look at GM's line up .....

Agreed.
GM bolst about the Corvette but that's a low volume car.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 47):
let's say a Buick, they are very large, somewhat bland and more geared to an older generation. Not very many 25 year olds would be interested in buying an Allure or Impala because, they are quite boring cars.

Screw the 25 year olds!
That was never Buick's target buyer anyway. There are plenty of older people that want a soft riding sedan or coupe with lots of bells & whistles that don't cost an arm & a leg.

Cheverolet is just pathetic!
This new Impala will not grab any attention among younger buyers. It's still very bland and it's front-wheel drive.
Bring back the Concorde

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