rootsair
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Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:53 pm

As we all know Israel has very very limited political contact with the rest of the Middle East. One example, for sports, they always compete with the Europan teams. This has lead to Israel having much more relations with Europe than the Middle East which is understandable.

Thus would there be any chance that Israel applies for joining the EU. I personally think there's no chance since its not really in Europe but many people say its a possibility !

what are my fellow A.netter's thoughts

Regards

BM
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:01 pm

I actually think that Israel should work to improve relations with Arab nations before considering any such move. Rather than "escaping" to the EU, a positive diplomatic mission to improve relations with Arab neighbors would be better. Of course, this is a two way road and all sides would need to help as well.

The evacuation of Gaza is a start, hopefully this recent violence will calm down and we can look into the future as well.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:01 pm

Turkey isn`t really in Europe too, but on the way into the EU.

I don`t expect Israel joining the EU (if they ever wanted to join it) until there is a stable peace with the Palestinians. How long should we wait? 50 years?

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:04 pm

How about, not just Israel, but BOTH Israel and the Palestinians joining the EU on that condition?
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geoffm
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:05 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 2):
Turkey isn`t really in Europe too, but on the way into the EU.

Look at a map. You'll find a small chunk of Turkey sits on European soil. Granted, most of it is in Asia, but your statement is still wrong.

Geoff M.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:12 pm

Relations between Israel and the EU haven't exactly been the best, so I don't see a rush to application there, or a rush to admit either. I doubt if the two entities would see eye-to-eye on social legislation.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 2):
Turkey isn`t really in Europe too

-
Turkey's largest city, Istanbul, clearly IS in Europe, and Edirne also, so that Turkey REALLY is in Europe, whenever only partially --- while Cyprus and Malta are NOT. Few people realize that Malta is SOUTH of Tunis (south-east of course) and NOT to the NORTH of Tunis. But I would rather favour a merger of the Arab League into the E.U. .
 
flyAUA
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:43 pm

It's not part of Europe so I don't see why it should be part of the EU, participate in European sports events, Eurovision song contests, or any other European activitites. If Japan, or Nigeria, or Canada do not participate in European events I don't see why we should make exceptions for Israel. Rules are rules, and they're not there to be broken. Israel is not part of Europe both Geographically, nor politically. End of story. That's my opinion.
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EddieGunsmoke
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 4):
Look at a map. You'll find a small chunk of Turkey sits on European soil. Granted, most of it is in Asia, but your statement is still wrong.

4% of Turkey lies in Europe.

And no, I don't want them, or Israel to join the EU.

[Edited 2005-09-29 11:02:58]
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:09 pm

Personally I think that Israel should stay away , while maintaining its current economical, political and cultural realtions with the EU as a whole and with each European country. I am also against deeper integration with our neigbours, regardless of the peace process, which must continue. We are too different from them and integration of that type will hurt Israeli economy and cultural life.
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airbuzz
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:19 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Thus would there be any chance that Israel applies for joining the EU. I personally think there's no chance since its not really in Europe but many people say its a possibility !

Israel joining EU? In my opinion, becoming the new 51st US state have more sense.
 
ZRH
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:00 pm

No way. Israel is not an European country! I also don't understand why Israel is allowed to be member of the UEFA (European Football Association). The EU has enough problems with the different European countries. I don't see and don't want Turkey to become a EU member either, because it is not a real European country, 96 % is in Asia.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:09 pm

Israel would need to make many changes to qualify for EU member status. Most of these involve changes to the fundamental issues in Israeli governance and human rights laws, and could be construed as not being in that nation's interests by its population.

So I doubt it is going to happen soon. Although current arrangements with the world's largest trading bloc are both extensive and friendly, and Israeli pharmaceutical exports are just one area where there is substantial trade. In many respects it is probably in the interests of Israel not to belong to any formal alliance like the EU.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 4):
Look at a map. You'll find a small chunk of Turkey sits on European soil.

I know that geographically a part of Turkey lies in Europe. But with my post I have meant that beeing European has something to do with a cultural European identity. Turkey is a country of an oriental background and way of live. Since the 7th century it was a islamic post, witch allways tried to conquest or influence European countries in order to expatiate the Islam. In history it was often a couterpart of European countries and philosophy. But never the less, nowadays it has ties to Europe and will be (and I support it) sooner or later a member of the EU. So, why shouldn`t Israel with his closer cultural ties, join the union?

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 7):
Eurovision song contests

they in fact already DO participate in at least one major Eurovision song contest, and they already ARE participating in some European organisations.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting EddieGunsmoke (Reply 8):
% of Turkey lies in Europ

you now talk about the surface. But as Turkey has 70 mio people, and Istanbul including suburbs 12 mio and the rest of European Turkey some 10 mio, it makes more than 20 mio. people in Europe which means that almost 30% of the Turkish population DO live in Europe. The E.U. is the only option for Turkey and they in the end of course will become a full member of the E.U.
-

 yes 
 
flyAUA
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
they in fact already DO participate in at least one major Eurovision song contest, and they already ARE participating in some European organisations.

I know, and it annoys me cus it's like sticking your nose in places it doesn't belong.  irked 
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
EddieGunsmoke
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
almost 30% of the Turkish population DO live in Europe

In other words: more than 70% does not live in Europe...  Smile
 
Doona
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:23 am

IMHO, Turkey has some serious shaping up to do before they fully enter the European Union. Sorting out the situation with the Kurds in a different way than the current "kick'em-out-or-kill'em" way, is one example that prevents Turkey for entering the EU.

And Israel cannot enter the EU until the situation with Palestine is resolved. And I believe that as long as religion is involved, neither side will make any serious move to end the conflict.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
prosa
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:31 am

Leaving aside political issues to focus on geography, economics and culture, Israel's case for EU membership is at least as strong as Turkey's. While Israel, unlike Turkey, is completely outside Europe in a geographic sense, it has much closer economic and cultural ties. Those seem much more important than geography.
As noted elsewhere, Cyprus and Malta are now in the EU despite having only a dubious claim to being geographically part of Europe. There's also a budding movement for the admission of Cape Verde, which is beyond doubt geographically part of Africa, in recognition of its close cultural ties to Europe (and, interestingly, to the United States).
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 20):
On the point of Israel, I also thought they would like to join the EU

Here's another insight: vast majority of Israelis do not want even to raise the EU issue. It's a simple non-question here, if you will. Very few people would want that option to happen.

That being said, over 30% of Israelis are citizens of EU and by 2010 almost 45% will hold an EU passport. And that does not include people like me who could get such passport but are not doing it.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
11Bravo
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
But I would rather favour a merger of the Arab League into the E.U. .

There isn't a single member of the Arab League that even comes close to meeting the EU requirements for representative government or human rights.
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TheSonntag
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:23 am

Israel CANNOT join the EU, because in order to be allowed to join it, you have to be inside Europe. Thats why Morocco applied for a membership but was rejected. While I will not discuss Turkey, they are at least partially inside Europe, something which is not the case for Israel.

I do think and hope, however that we could get some important agreements with Israel. Look at Switzerland: They are not a member of the EU, but their citizens have the same rights, because they signed a treaty with the EU about that. It is not completely impossible that Israel also could sign treaties about the freedom to work, but I do not see that possibility for the next 30 years.

Michael
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:28 am

I doubt the EU would take Israel.

The EU does not wish to alienate any potential trading parter and a lot of the mid-east likes European goods, if Israel was a member of the EU Arab nations might seek other sources for their goods.
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rjpieces
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:57 am

There was some talk of Israel joining the EU a few years back...I doubt it will ever happen though. However, don't forget that Israel and the EU are HUGE trading partners.

At the end of the day though, the US-Israel relationship is the most important one for Israel. And that relationship has reached unthinkable levels in the past few years. The US and Israel are closer than ever.

On the point of Israel, I also thought they would like to join the EU and I'm sure the Americans would LOVE for them to join, but it would open too many cans of worms.

Why would we LOVE that? I for one like the Israeli military to be coordinated with US forces...Could you ever imagine the IDF yielding some of their power to an EU military?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
whitehatter
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:08 am

The current situation benefits everybody so I don't see the point of changing the status quo.

Israel has close historical and social ties with many European nations, so why must those be disregarded? Israel seems happy enough being the EK or VS of nations, existing outside formal alliances and forging their own case-by-case links to mutual benefit.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
Why would we LOVE that? I for one like the Israeli military to be coordinated with US forces...Could you ever imagine the IDF yielding some of their power to an EU military?

Except that would never happen to even existing EU nations beyond the Rapid Reaction Force. Which you seem not to understand the principle of. It is not some nascent Euroarmy as defence is not its purpose.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting Airdolomiti (Reply 21):
I can't help but think of the centuries of battles between the Ottoman Empire and Eastern European countries

while Albania and Bosnia are majority-wise Muslim countries deeply inside Europe and historically definite allies of the Turks

Quoting Airdolomiti (Reply 21):
go to Istanbul I do not feel like I am in a European city - it is definitely Oriental

I do NOT quite know what you regard as "oriental" but on my visits to Istanbul I indeed DID feel to be in a European city -- rather like Prague or Venice than like a place in the Arab World

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 26):
Thats why Morocco applied for a membership but was rejected.

that "application" was placed in order to check up positions. It was the start-up to a successful move which resulted in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya (soon), Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, and thereby the bulk of the Arab World, signing far-reaching bilateral agreements with the E.U. . The whole process was an idea of King Hassan II, who realistically analysed the actual chances of the Arab World. There NOT only is the fact that most trade of the Arab World is done with Europe and that most Arabs of high education get their higher education at European educational institutes, but also that more than 40 mio Arabs now live in Europe.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
the US-Israel relationship is the most important one for Israel

so that Israel should join NAFTA, which in turn should be re-named into NAIFTA !
 
bahadir
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:01 am

I can see this turning into Turkish EU membership instead of Israeli membership.

Now, if the criterium is to be geographically part of Europe, Turkey has land in Europe unlike Cyprus and Malta. On the other hand, if Cyprus is part of EU, then Israel should qualify as well.

I don't think Israel wants to be part of EU anyway. They would like to stay independent. On the other hand, a customs union from economical perspective would make sense..

Of course, we know that Turkey will never be part of the EU because of the European perspective to Turkey will never change. A lot has changed in Turkey in last 5-6 years and a lot will change in the next coming years. But we also know that, what people who oppose Turkish membership are in desire of independent Kurdistan, Turkish assimilation in Cyprus (I have no objection to pull out of Turkish troops but who will guarantee the safety and economical independence of Cypriot Turks).

I still laugh at the people who say Turkey has human rights problems, when EU countries are the biggest supporters of PKK and religious extremists in Europe..
Earthbound misfit I
 
B744F
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
it is NOT an occupation, but keeping up security of Turkish Cyprus

But on the other hand, Israel is occupying the land, not keeping up security of their citizens
 
Doona
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 37):
Now, if the criterium is to be geographically part of Europe, Turkey has land in Europe unlike Cyprus and Malta. On the other hand, if Cyprus is part of EU, then Israel should qualify as well.

This is not the criterium. If it was, Iceland, Ireland and the UK would have been allowed to enter either...

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 26):
Israel CANNOT join the EU, because in order to be allowed to join it, you have to be inside Europe.

Apparently there is no law or statute that says that a country has to be located "inside Europe" to be allowed into the EU. Any country in the world could in theory enter the European Union. I'm waaay to lazy to find real fact at the moment to back it up, but my uncle who is a social studies professor here in Sweden told me. If anyone has better info, please share!

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
Quoting PROSA (Reply 19):
While Israel, unlike Turkey, is completely outside Europe in a geographic sense, it has much closer economic and cultural ties.

No, it has NOT. Turkey is economically and culturally completely oriented towards Europe.

And yet Israel has more advanced bilateral agreements with EU and its members than Turkey. The difference is that unlike Turkey, Israel is not aspiring EU membership. That was one of the aspects that allowed such bilateral relations.

When it comes to working force agreements (i.e. free movement) more Israelis enjoy it due to the dual citizenship than those of Turkey or even the new EU members.

Basically the situation is that we enjoy the benefits of being close to EU (and the other way around) and stay a US oriented country...

In the future when the area will be more peacufull I hope that Israel will become more like Oz - staying out of major political alliances and being US oriented.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Airdolomiti
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
while Albania and Bosnia are majority-wise Muslim countries deeply inside Europe and historically definite allies of the Turks

Ever wondered why that is? Bosnia was an independent kingdom of Roman/Slavic origins until 1463 when the Ottomans conquered it, and the same goes for Albania, which was first controlled by the Roman and Byzantine Empires, and eventually invaded by the Ottomans in 1478 after years of resistance.

Bosnia passed under Austrian control only in 1878, and Albania proclaimed its independency from the Ottoman Empire in 1912 after the 1st Balkan War. 4-odd centuries of Ottoman domination.

It is therefore no surprise that today about 40% of Bosnian's population is Muslim, 31% are Orthodox and the remaining 29% is evenly split between Catholics and others; and in Albania, Muslims account for 70% of the population, 20% are Albanian Orthodoxes and 10% Roman Catholics.

The point is that neither country's population is of Muslim origin.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
I do NOT quite know what you regard as "oriental" but on my visits to Istanbul I indeed DID feel to be in a European city -- rather like Prague or Venice than like a place in the Arab World

I was born and raised in Venice (only moved away from there 2 months ago) so I think I know what that city is like, and I beg your pardon, but comparing Istanbul and Prague is like comparing apples and oranges.
Yes, Venice had many ties with the Byzantines in its days - in fact, it was originally a dependency of the Byzantine Empire, which was nothing else but the Greek-speaking Eastern Roman Empire. You can still see this today in its architecture.
The Byzantine Empire has traditionally always been Christian, though gradually splitting from the Roman Church until the Great Schism in 1054 which originated the modern Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church. No Islam to be seen. But then in 1453 the Ottomans came and conquered Constantinople. The rest is history... Need I remind you of such events as the Battle of Lepanto (Nafpaktos) in 1571 where the united forces of the Papal State, Spain, the Republic of Venice and the Habsburgs wiped out nearly the entire Ottoman naval fleet?

Not trying to be a history smartass, just providing food for thought.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:32 am

I think it would be good for Israelis farmers, but in other senses it wouldn´t
be to good for Israel.
Israel used to play football in the Oceanian group and it plays in the African/European series in tennis (Davis cup).
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ZRH
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 43):
Quoting Bahadir (Reply 37):
Now, if the criterium is to be geographically part of Europe, Turkey has land in Europe unlike Cyprus and Malta. On the other hand, if Cyprus is part of EU, then Israel should qualify as well.

This is not the criterium. If it was, Iceland, Ireland and the UK would have been allowed to enter either...

As I know and learned do Ireland and the UK belong to Europe. They are islands but clearly belong to the European continent. Or do you consider them as an own continent??????

[Edited 2005-09-29 22:48:42]
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:45 am

Well, if Turkey can join, Israel can too. And then maybe Jordan, Syria, Iraq and finally Tonga and Kiribati ...

... and Switzerland?

enjoy your day ...
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alberchico
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 43):
Apparently there is no law or statute that says that a country has to be located "inside Europe" to be allowed into the EU. Any country in the world could in theory enter the European Union. I'm waaay to lazy to find real fact at the moment to back it up, but my uncle who is a social studies professor here in Sweden told me. If anyone has better info, please share!

That is why Turkey is at the moment seeking admission....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:54 pm

Quoting EddieGunsmoke (Reply 34):
Turkey IS a European country. It is neither an "Asian" country nor an Arab country

Now, I may be stupid, but I don't understand this.

While I fail to understand what may be difficult to understand about this quite obvious matter. What exactly do you NOT understand ?
 
Doona
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:55 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 47):
As I know and learned do Ireland and the UK belong to Europe.

I was referring to the fact that they are island nations that are not connected to the European continent. But, yes, I can see that I might have been a little unclear in my previous post. And Ireland and the UK were bad examples. Let me say only Iceland, then. That's a hell of alot farther away from Europe than Cyprus and Malta...

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
EddieGunsmoke
Posts: 232
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 53):
While I fail to understand what may be difficult to understand about this quite obvious matter. What exactly do you NOT understand ?

Not very obvious if you ask me. Again, only a small part lies in Europe, and only a small minority lives in Europe.

[Edited 2005-10-01 13:08:11]
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 7):
It's not part of Europe so I don't see why it should be part of the EU, participate in European sports events, Eurovision song contests, or any other European activitites.

How about all other non-European countries that are allowed to take part in European competitions? Like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and some of those that are already mentioned, like Cyprus?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 12):
Most of these involve changes to the fundamental issues in Israeli governance and human rights laws, and could be construed as not being in that nation's interests by its population.

If you're going to look at the human rights, you will find that Arabs living in Israel actually have quite good human rights. But the EU already has countries with human rights problems within the organization. As an example, you could look at how Estonia and Latvia are treating their Russian minorities. So concering human rights laws, in my opinion, Israel is actually far above some of the EU countries.

Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
But on the other hand, Israel is occupying the land, not keeping up security of their citizens

This is a political question, and it's not as simple as you make it look like. If Israel is occupying land, then they must occupy it from somebody who owned it before them. And the problem is that if we e.g. talk about the West Bank, that nobody who owned the West Bank before Israel did, has tried to make a claim to the land. Neither Jordan, England, nor Turkey has.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 59):
Azerbaijan,

Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia ARE in Europe. And as the main-part of Russia is WEST of the URal and therefore geographically in Europe, all of Russia technically is in Europe, which means that we in a not too distant future will have a EUROPE FROM THE ATLANTIC TO THE PACIFIC .
 
EddieGunsmoke
Posts: 232
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:37 pm

Ok, I guess Alaska was a part of Europe once?
 
prosa
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia ARE in Europe.

Not (or mostly not) if you consider the northern slope of the Caucasus Mountains as the Europe-Asia border.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting EddieGunsmoke (Reply 61):
Ok, I guess Alaska was a part of Europe once?

As a Russian province - one might say it was. Same as French colonies... (French Guiana, Reunion, etc.). It's more about politics - less about geography.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Airdolomiti (Reply 21):
In my view, it takes much more to be "European" than just having a speck of land on European soil.

Oh? What does it tke to be European? Or American or British for that matter?

Is it about history? Then perhaps Turkey should have hat its own Musolini, or Franco, or Hitler? Yes, so civilized cuturally Europe's history is. Or, perhaps we should look to America as a standard of pedigree? Slavery, segregation, internment camps... The British, Dutch, etc..? They are the ones that caused half of the problems in the world because of colonialization. Hell, the whole world should join the EU. Uraguay and Argentina are more European than Cyprus, IMHO. All of the Americas were once "owned" by Europe. Most of Africa too. Certainly Australia. Hong Kong? India for sure....

Europeans and Americans seem to love to sit on their high horse and forget that not too long ago we were just as "backwards" as some of these countries... bringging them into the "fold" is how you make global progress, not keeping them out.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 62):
Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia ARE in Europe.

Not (or mostly not) if you consider the northern slope of the Caucasus Mountains as the Europe-Asia border.

The European Council, the European Postal Union and other organisation have accepted all three countries as being INSIDE Europe, in contrast to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzhstan and Tajikistan which are regarded as being Central-Asia. To make a phone-call from Western Europe to Khabarovsk or Vladivostok therefore is less expensive than a call to Almaty or Tashkent.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:13 am

Well, I rather would like Cape Verde to join than Israel...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Airdolomiti
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 56):
Neither are the Turks. The Turks until about 1200-1250 were Christians, and then converted to Islam as they, I mean their ruling soldier-class, wanted to work as soldiers for the Abbasid Kaliphs in Baghdad.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the history books I studied from, but I thought the Byzantines were Christians, not the Turks. You are right however when you say that Christians largely coexisted with the Moslem Turks for a short while, and that the soldier-class subsequently started acting as fighters for the faith of Islam against the "infidels". The "fracas" of the Crusades of course largely contributed to the Moslem Turks' building dislike for Christians (before anyone accuses me of the contrary, I am not Christian, nor do I condone the whole Crusades business - but that's beside the point).

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 64):
Oh? What does it tke to be European? Or American or British for that matter?

Is it about history? Then perhaps Turkey should have hat its own Musolini, or Franco, or Hitler? Yes, so civilized cuturally Europe's history is. Or, perhaps we should look to America as a standard of pedigree? Slavery, segregation, internment camps... The British, Dutch, etc..? They are the ones that caused half of the problems in the world because of colonialization. Hell, the whole world should join the EU. Uraguay and Argentina are more European than Cyprus, IMHO. All of the Americas were once "owned" by Europe. Most of Africa too. Certainly Australia. Hong Kong? India for sure....

Don't jump to conclusions - my statement was merely an answer to someone's assertion that Turkey *should* enter the EU because a small part of the country lies in Europe.

Argentina and Uruguay in the EU? Why not, but to the best of my knowledge, like many other countries they sought independence from their colonizators (on a formal level at least - admittedly, for many of these former colonies, their original colonizators remain the biggest trading and political partners).
I honestly don't know whether there is any desire to join the EU there. I could be wrong though  Smile

Anyhow, I rest my case. It's no secret that I don't really support Turkey's bid to enter the EU, but it is probably inevitable that it will enter at some stage, for a number of reasons which have been mentioned in this thread. I just sincerely hope that whatever issues which currently do not allow for this to happen, will be fully solved.

Federico

p.s. Oh and thanks for reminding me about Franco, Hitler and Mussolini (it's spelled with a double "s" by the way). I was thinking of more remote times.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting Airdolomiti (Reply 67):
but I thought the Byzantines were Christians, not the Turks.

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The Byzantines of course WERE Christians and the centre of "East Rome" . That is why the "Pope" of the Greek Orthodox Church is in Istanbul (Byzanz, Constantinople) and NOT in Athens. The Turks however ALSO were Christians. Even the name "Istanbul" btw is of Greek origin. The Sultans of the Turks for centuries had Greek as their court-language, and Sultan Mehmet II when giving the order to capture Constantinope gave the command (1453) in Greek "Eis taen polis" which than gradually became Is-tan-bulis = Istanbul .
 
OV735
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Israel In The EU?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 59):
As an example, you could look at how Estonia and Latvia are treating their Russian minorities.

Sorry, but IMO backing up one's arguments with the lies from a media that is known to have been the greatest propaganda machine in the last 90 years isn't the best way to prove your point. Your statement makes it sound like people of Russian origin are kept as slaves in Latvia and Estonia. I have to dissappoint you though, there have been two periods in the history of Estonia when not everyone had equal civil rights - the German rule, and the Russian/Soviet rule. During the Swedish rule, and also during the first period of independence, and also now, every human being has had the same basic rights. One can get education in Russian, one can use Russian in almost any government facility, and many members of the Russian-speaking population go through their life without even bothering to learn a single word in Estonian.

I suggest you check your facts before you post them.

--

Regarding Israel entering the EU. If EU is going to accept Turkey and maybe in a longer perspective Ukraine and even Lebanon and Georgia, why not. I would rather like to see Israel trying to find a peaceful solution to the problems with its neighbors, though.

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