Thumper3181
Topic Author
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:07 am

The EU has decided that governments and and private business must share overseeing the Internet. The US has rejected this and said it would continue to be the Internet's ultimate authority.

It was the US that created Internet as a Pentagon project and funded much of it's early development. The Commerce department has "delegated much of that responsibility to a U.S.-based private organization with international board members, but Commerce ultimately retains veto power."

Sounds like our european "friends" are causing trouble again.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050930/...;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:14 am

The idea is not to put the worldwide internet under european control (the way it is under american control now) but to put it under international control. Very different deal.

Whether the proposed concept is actually the optimal one or if greater independence from governmental oversight would be desirable is a different question. But the exclusive american control of resources essential to worldwide communication is an anachronism and cannot be perpetuated in the long run, even considering the undoubted historical merits going back to ARPANet.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Thread starter):
Sounds like our european "friends" are causing trouble again.

You might also try to find out the difference between the friends you have and the servants you apparently wish you had.
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:18 am

I was JUST about to post an article on this. Before reading this, I never knew that the US has authority over the internet, just like GPS.

I believe it's not only the EU, but it's also the whole UN that wants some control.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050929/...;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-

Honestly though, putting the "we made it" argument aside, is there something really bad about the way the internet is run? It's the ultimate form of free speech throughout the world. If the UN were to be involved, I wouldn't want a country like China having a say in how the internet is run. Besides, they modify it however they see fit anyway.

The internet would become a huge bureaucratic mess. Leave it alone!
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:23 am

Nonsense. Different UN agencies already now manage certain internationally relevant resources without being an impediment to their use.

In this case it is not about censorship, by the way, but about the root name servers and their management as well as the allocation of the increasingly tight IP V4 address space.
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Thread starter):
It was the US that created Internet



I invented the Internet not you! Give it back!

Signed,
Al Gore (inventor of the Internet)
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:34 am

Bit late for that, isn't it? Big grin
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Thread starter):

Sounds like our european "friends" are causing trouble again.

Yep, for the second time after the 1999 Kosovo War, but I didn't know the Serbs were your friends.
I support the right to arm bears
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Thread starter):
Sounds like our european "friends" are causing trouble again.

Nothing like a little bit of Eurobashing, huh?

As for the issue at hand, why do people feel a need to control the internet anyway? Isn't it (close to) impossible anyway? I mean, it's able to withstand everything from the breakdown of several root servers to giant earthquakes destroying thousands of lines because it's such a widespread, highly dense network - and people really think someone who doesn't want to be controlled won't find a way to remain "in stealth mode"?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mhodgson
Posts: 4673
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:47 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:07 am

It's fairly obvious that Google control the internet, anyway  Silly
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:19 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 8):
why do people feel a need to control the internet anyway?

Tax baby!

All that stuff being sold on the internet is going free of taxes in many cases or people can buy products from places with lower taxes. For example I live in DC and buy stuff on the internet from New Hampshire (where they have no sales tax) and have it sent down. I could only imagine what it would be like with Eastern Europe in the EU, if I was in Germany I would probably be receiving 200 packages per month from Poland.

Imagine how much tax revenue is being lost on those porn sites...what happened to the good old strip clubs and playboy subscriptions of yesteryear?
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
Thumper3181
Topic Author
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
But the exclusive american control of resources essential to worldwide communication is an anachronism and cannot be perpetuated in the long run, even considering the undoubted historical merits going back to ARPANet.

Sorry Klaus just a rationalisation for stealing here. If you really think it that important the the US not control the Internet whcih we US taxpayers own and let the rest of the world use for free without complaint then I suggest you go and set up your own. Lets see who hurts most on that one.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
Whether the proposed concept is actually the optimal one or if greater independence from governmental oversight would be desirable is a different question.

A question which you as a non owner have no right to be part of.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
You might also try to find out the difference between the friends you have and the servants you apparently wish you had.

Friends do not try to steal that which is freely given.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 3):
I believe it's not only the EU, but it's also the whole UN that wants some control.

Up until today the EU had respected private property. They changed their mind when they thought they had a chance to try and weaken the US. Typical Euro backstabbing. Lastly it makes no difference if it is the whole world or just the EU. You do not take what is not yours.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 11):
Sorry Klaus just a rationalisation for stealing here. If you really think it that important the the US not control the Internet whcih we US taxpayers own and let the rest of the world use for free without complaint then I suggest you go and set up your own. Lets see who hurts most on that one.

The sad thing is that you apparently don't even have the slightest clue what the internet actually is, how it operates and what "ownership" and "control" in its context would actually mean.

Whereas the initial protocol architecture had been developed for the Pentagon, it is obvious that the later extensions of the internet all over the world have been paid for by the respective international participants. It is stunningly ridiculous to claim any kind of US "ownership" of the internet.

Especially when you're looking at the WorldWide Web, which was actually invented at CERN in Europe. You may have noted that no european claim of "ownership" of the web has ever been made even though every link you're clicking is formed in european-invented HTML and triggers an european-invented http transaction (which makes use of the lower level IP protocol, a descendant of the ARPANet protocol).  Yeah sure

The development of a unified network was next to inevitable - the IP protocol simply cornered the market early on and has turned out to be a pretty decent choice. If it hadn't been that, we would probably use one of the many possible alternatives.

What is in dispute is the sole US control over IP address allocation and the root name servers. While historically sensible and obvious, this (primarily administrative) structure has become outdated and does not reflect the structure of or contributions to the network properly any more. The internet has long stopped being an american development.

You have not only thoroughly embarrassed yourself about your own ignorance of the matter, your repulsive attitude is also sadly reminiscent of bygone eras when self-appointed "noblemen" demanded submission of those they deemed below their station. You may be aware that exactly this attitude has been one of the reasons why the USA have been founded in the first place.

An "internet revolution" that would simply unlink from the US administrative structure and create international structures instead is not very likely at this point, but it is in fact feasible.

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 11):
Friends do not try to steal that which is freely given.

Get a clue.

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 11):
Up until today the EU had respected private property. They changed their mind when they thought they had a chance to try and weaken the US. Typical Euro backstabbing. Lastly it makes no difference if it is the whole world or just the EU. You do not take what is not yours.

An apology would be a good idea.


You could have found this information yourself, but since your internet skills appear to be lacking, here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpanet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:10 am

What the US controls are the DNS servers. That is almost absolute power, its as close to being able to "shut down" whatever you want as you can get.

Should the world control it? Sure, why not. This American childish response to everything "mine mine mine" is so boring
 
Thumper3181
Topic Author
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:23 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
The sad thing is that you apparently don't even have the slightest clue what the internet actually is, how it operates and what "ownership" and "control" in its context would actually mean.

I have a bachelors Degree in Computer Science
I have a Masters Degree in Internet Business systems
Numerous high level Industry Certifications
I make a nice living as an Internetworking Consultant

By the way use a capital "I" in Internet.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Whereas the initial protocol architecture had been developed for the Pentagon, it is obvious that the later extensions of the internet all over the world have been paid for by the respective international participants. It is stunningly ridiculous to claim any kind of US "ownership" of the internet.

I think not. Rather than go through it all here why don't you go back and READ all of the articles in the links you cite. The Pentagon directly funded the first workable internetwork whose basic design is no different today than it was 25 years ago, it is also obvious (if you reread the text you cite) that it was American Universities (funded by the government), and scientists and American companies that performed the vast bulk of the work that went in to what we know of today as the Internet.

The only major component of the Internet that was first developed outside of the US was the WWW application. Tim Berners-Lee's three inventions URL, HTML, and the HTTP protocol became the core application (there where other competing packages) for Web browsing or what we refer to as the WWW. The genius of Lee was that he made it free to all. Once this was done, the WWW's economic appeal made it all but inevitable that the WWW would supplant earlier (American) browser projects such as Gopher, Mosaic, and WAIS. It is also worth noting that WWW needed additional development and did not come in to widespread use until Lee left Europe and continued it's development at MIT (Government funded). Not to pile on but even the computer that he developed the WWW on and that which it was first designed to run on the NeXT Cube was invented by Steve Jobs (you guessed it another American).

The WWW is only a small part of the Internet. I suggest you really read those articles you cited. Routers, Ethernet, FTP, SNMP, unshielded twisted pair cable, DNS, Internet numbering .... the list goes on. Invented here and funded largely through the government and private business.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
What is in dispute is the sole US control over IP address allocation and the root name servers. While historically sensible and obvious, this (primarily administrative) structure has become outdated and does not reflect the structure of or contributions to the network properly any more. The internet has long stopped being an American development.

You are confusing contribution with usage. The two are different. Users, unless they pay or build the network do not control it. The DNS and IP address allocation is ours because we invented it, payed for it and used it first.

As for continued contributions to Internet development I will quote Wickepedia from one of your citations:
"As the Web grew, search engines and Web directories were created to track pages on the web and allow people to find things. The first search engine, Lycos, was created in 1993 as a university project. In 1993, the first web magazine, The Virtual Journal, was published by a University of Maine student. At the end of 1993, Lycos indexed a total of 800,000 web pages."

Oh yeah almost forgot, ever hear of Google?

Actually take a look at the CERN entry in Wikapedia. They have a picture of an early Cisco router, possibly the first in Europe. Wonder where that came from?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
You have not only thoroughly embarrassed yourself about your own ignorance of the matter, your repulsive attitude is also sadly reminiscent of bygone eras when self-appointed "noblemen" demanded submission of those they deemed below their station.

I think it is you who should be embarrassed by citing articles that clearly prove you wrong. You have no right to that which does not belong to you no matter how important it is to you. Why not demand the plans for Intel chips or Microsoft Windows source code. Oops forgot the EU already has demanded that of Microsoft.

Rather than apologies to me feel free to thank me for the information.

Cheer up, there is always IPv6!
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:01 pm

Thumper3181, I officially ask you to stop using a car. We invented it and therefore we own it.

Oh, and have fun using YOUR internet without a computer, because we invented that too.

Oh, and don't even think of travelling by air, Otto Lillienthal was the first to do so, and as official owner of the sky doesn't want jackasses like you to fly.

Kinda limits your ways of transportation. But hey, you could still ride a bicycle...no wait, that's ours too. But maybe you can trade with the Brits, they can use your internet and you can use their trains. Otherwise, walking is good for your health.
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 5:19 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:32 pm

Is there anyone who don`t know why the US is nowadays so unloved all over the world ? What could be the reasons for that?

Axel

[Edited 2005-10-01 15:44:54]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 5:19 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:49 pm

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 14):
The genius of Lee was that he made it free to all.

And I´m sure that he don`t want it to be controlled by a government, neither of the US, nor by any other.

Axel

[Edited 2005-10-01 15:51:06]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 14):
I have a bachelors Degree in Computer Science
I have a Masters Degree in Internet Business systems
Numerous high level Industry Certifications
I make a nice living as an Internetworking Consultant

You also haven't got a clue about what you are talking about. Great advertising there bud.

Got paper? Yep. Got a clue? Nope.

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
Rather than apologies to me feel free to thank me for the information.

Fee free to go and find out what Internet actually means. An international network. Not anybody's personal or national property. The root servers should be controlled by no one Government as it could theoretically limit free speech and trade.

You and your nation do not pay for my Internet connection or any of the transit or cabling I use. Why should you have rights over me and the billions of other users globally who have peered to US systems?

Guess what? Your nation is just a corner of the global network. An increasingly less important one too. As you allege you are some kind of network guru, then you should also understand that you can be marginalised if that were necessary. This proposal by the EU is both fair and justified as it takes national and political concerns out of Internet governance, and should be adopted as the least problematic solution.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting Racko (Reply 15):
Thumper3181, I officially ask you to stop using a car. We invented it and therefore we own it.

That about sums it up!  bigthumbsup 
 
soyuzavia
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:01 am

I don't like the fact that internet commerce in my country is ultimately controlled by the US government. No foreign government should have control over my conducting commerce with any entity in Australia, or any other country (which is not part of that foreign government).

With the US government breaking their promise several months ago, it is time that the rest of the world, via the UN, set up our own root servers, with national authorities moving to the new root servers. Basically a splintering of the net. It would hurt commerce in the short to medium term but what revolutions don't cause a degree of shock at the beginning?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 20):
I don't like the fact that internet commerce in my country is ultimately controlled by the US government.

That's not actually what's happening. But even administrative oversight should not be concentrated in one single country and dependent on that country's highly erratic government when it's about an essential resource for global communication.

We're not quite at the point where independent root server structures or IP address allocation would be immediately imminent; But since the effort to introduce such structures would be rather limited it's still quite a plausible alternative.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting Racko (Reply 15):
Thumper3181, I officially ask you to stop using a car. We invented it and therefore we own it.

Oh, and have fun using YOUR internet without a computer, because we invented that too.

That's a flawed analogy because no one is asking you to stop using the Internet.

I don't know much about the Internet past the basics, but why does the EU/UN want control over it too? Is there a problem with the way we run it.

AAndrew
 
airbuzz
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 11):

Sorry Klaus just a rationalisation for stealing here. If you really think it that important the the US not control the Internet whcih we US taxpayers own and let the rest of the world use for free without complaint then I suggest you go and set up your own. Lets see who hurts most on that one.

US owns Internet?  rotfl 

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 14):
I have a bachelors Degree in Computer Science
I have a Masters Degree in Internet Business systems
Numerous high level Industry Certifications
I make a nice living as an Internetworking Consultant

Where did you buy that paper?
 
geoffm
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:58 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 14):
I have a bachelors Degree in Computer Science
I have a Masters Degree in Internet Business systems
Numerous high level Industry Certifications
I make a nice living as an Internetworking onsultant

And yet not an ounce of common sense.

Quoting Airbuzz (Reply 23):
Where did you buy that paper?

I hear you can buy them on the "American" Internet.

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 14):
By the way use a capital "I" in Internet.

That shows just how ignorant you are. The Internet (capital I) is what we think of as hosting the WWW. An internet (lower case I) is simply routers connecting networks together. To treat both as the Internet is frankly ridiculous. But of course, you knew that since you're an "expert".

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):

Thank goodness somebody here knows what they're talking about.

Geoff M.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:55 am

Sharing "control" is fine. But people are "afraid" of U.S. control over the internet? Wow, the country that has amassed the most power ever in the world and has abused it least has people shaking in their shoes? Wow.

Power, the ultimate aphrodisiac. And everybody wants a bottle of it.

Is there something wrong with the internet in it's current form and what would you change? Or is it just an imbalance of control and oversight that is the issue?
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 11):
Up until today the EU had respected private property. They changed their mind when they thought they had a chance to try and weaken the US. Typical Euro backstabbing. Lastly it makes no difference if it is the whole world or just the EU. You do not take what is not yours.

I shudder when I think about the reaction this little diatribe would have got had it been aimed at the US...  sarcastic 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 5:19 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 22):
That's a flawed analogy because no one is asking you to stop using the Internet.

But the possibility to shut down the internet, when ever they want it, is the only reason for the US government to insist on the control of it.
So the analogy is right.

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:26 am

Maybe we (i.e. the rest of the world) should do like we are doing in Galileo... create a system outside the control of the US military but that is still compatible.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
exile
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:45 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 22):
I don't know much about the Internet past the basics, but why does the EU/UN want control over it too? Is there a problem with the way we run it.

No. NOBODY is saying that they "want control over it". The actual issue has already been addressed so I wont explain it again, but if you still don't understand, there are literally thousands of sites explaining it which can be found with a simple search.

The way the original post in this topic was worded (and even the way the linked article was worded) is blatant euro-baiting, and Klaus, you always take the bait.. time and time again.

Of course you are right, and the so-called 'expert' should know that, but it seems he is one of many here who view euro-baiting as some sort of sport, and you provide them with hours of enjoyment by swallowing it, every time!
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 27):
But the possibility to shut down the internet, when ever they want it, is the only reason for the US government to insist on the control of it.

And shut down the vast e-commerce that companies have in the U.S? What are you smoking? Get rid of it.

LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 5:19 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 30):
And shut down the vast e-commerce that companies have in the U.S?

To shut down the internet in times of crisis (Hey, your government feigned WMDs to attack an other country, they are unscrupulous. I don`t trust them an inch). And perhaps to use it like Echelon (for intelligence and industrial and commercial espionage).

Thank you, I`m a non-smoker.

Axel

[Edited 2005-10-01 23:02:52]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Thumper3181
Topic Author
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Racko (Reply 15):
Thumper3181, I officially ask you to stop using a car. We invented it and therefore we own it.

Oh, and have fun using YOUR internet without a computer, because we invented that too.

Oh, and don't even think of travelling by air, Otto Lillienthal was the first to do so, and as official owner of the sky doesn't want jackasses like you to fly.

"Atanasoff Berry Computer was the world's first electronic digital computer. It was built by Dr. John Vincent Atanasoff and Clifford E. Berry at Iowa State University during 1937-42." Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

Lilienthal's (one l not two) work was in gliders not powered flight. Source http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/WrBr/inventors/Lilienthal.html

You are factually wrong on two of three and totally wrong on the concept. No one ever said to stop using it so your analogy is just plain wrong.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 18):
You also haven't got a clue about what you are talking about. Great advertising there bud.

Got paper? Yep. Got a clue? Nope.



Quoting Airbuzz (Reply 23):
Where did you buy that paper?



Quoting Geoffm (Reply 24):
And yet not an ounce of common sense.

Quoting Airbuzz (Reply 23):
Where did you buy that paper?

I hear you can buy them on the "American" Internet.

And not a one of you clueless souls has yet been able to refute any one of the facts I cited, nor any of the facts that Klaus inadvertently posted from his own sources which again are :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpanet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN

Once you read and understand what is being said you can only come to the conclusion that it was Americans (with the American governement doing most of the funding) invented and developed the vast majority of the components that we today call the Internet.

Refute that it was the US government that funded at great expense the copmputers and software that today are known as the root name servers which are the backbone of the Internet.

Tell me where the IP protocol was invented and hence IP addressing?

BGP anyone????

Cmon, facts, not names! Sorry just because the facts don't fit the propaganda you are being fed or your own silly world view does not mean the facts are untrue.

This problem of trying to usurp the final authority of DNS' and address allocation is just another chapter of not respecting intellectual property.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
Maybe we (i.e. the rest of the world) should do like we are doing in Galileo... create a system outside the control of the US military but that is still compatible.

Go ahead, but this time we will collect royalties on the technology. It would be very easy to enforce. Anytime an alien domain wants to communicate with a host within our domain (oh by the way use ours and it continues to be free and unfettered as it is now with other countries) a simple check is made at the network border. Has the domain where the source address originates payed their yearly royalty to the US tax payer? If yes let it through if no then bit bucket.

Now before you go whining on how it would hurt us just as much I would suggest you check out the following URL: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=US&word2=World
You will see that the vast majority of the Internet exists within the US domain.

Quoting Exile (Reply 29):
Of course you are right, and the so-called 'expert' should know that, but it seems he is one of many here who view euro-baiting as some sort of sport, and you provide them with hours of enjoyment by swallowing it, every time!

I have an open mind and you seem to be level headed. Show me one article where is proves or even indicates I am wrong.

There is not one shred of evidence that ICANN is doing anything other than a superb job at Internet governance. For those that do not know they are an am American organization with an International board of directors that oversees the Internet. The US Commerce department has administrative oversight. This arrangement is the culmination of several years of divestiture of Internet governance by the US government. In all the years of US control of the Internet, not once has it denied access to any site anywhere in the world.

Some would say then why doesn't the US give up the final control of the Internet. Well other than the fact that it is not yours and not in our national interest to do so, we do not trust the rest of the world. Frankly the thought of Germany, Iran, Ivory Coast, etc running something as important to our national well being through a UN agency makes most Americans very uneasy and the words of many non US posters on this board and others just confirm the unease.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:09 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
The idea is not to put the worldwide internet under european control (the way it is under american control now) but to put it under international control. Very different deal.

I think that this would be a terrible idea. Once control was given to an international body (ie the UN) youi know the next step is to start taxing it to fund what ever "cause of the month" they can think of. And the taxes will just grow from there.

It all just sounds like a money grab to me!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:47 am

>> To shut down the internet in times of crisis (Hey, your government feigned WMDs to attack an other country, they are unscrupulous. I don`t trust them an inch).

Then it would shut down in the United States, too. Same thing with GPS, we can't shut it off without screwing ourselves.

I'm all for change and liberalism, my username is afteral inspired by it, but I don't see the point in upsetting a functional status quo. Is there any reason to change "control" of the Internet for anything but international kymbahi?
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:48 am

Thumper3181,
Words fail me.

- Apparently, you haven't understand what Europe's position on "controlling the Net" really is.

- The few facts you have mentioned are completely irrelevant to what others have said.

- Your rants on Europe are embarassing.

- And than this:

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):

Now before you go whining on how it would hurt us just as much I would suggest you check out the following URL: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=US&word2=World
You will see that the vast majority of the Internet exists within the US domain.



To be fair: This is your only valid argument: Never change a running system:

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):
In all the years of US control of the Internet, not once has it denied access to any site anywhere in the world.

Only to destroy the one-and-only argument with an exsudat like that:

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):
Some would say then why doesn't the US give up the final control of the Internet. Well other than the fact that it is not yours and not in our national interest to do so, we do not trust the rest of the world. Frankly the thought of Germany, Iran, Ivory Coast, etc running something as important to our national well being through a UN agency makes most Americans very uneasy and the words of many non US posters on this board and others just confirm the unease.

Your thoughts - as entertaining as they are - are so f***ed up on so many levels, it's actually hard to bear.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Exile (Reply 29):
The way the original post in this topic was worded (and even the way the linked article was worded) is blatant euro-baiting, and Klaus, you always take the bait.. time and time again.

If you've got a toxic spill, you don't improve things by letting it spread.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 31):
To shut down the internet in times of crisis (Hey, your government feigned WMDs to attack an other country, they are unscrupulous. I don`t trust them an inch).

Well, not that I wouldn't put it past the current - very obviously untrustworthy - US administration to try, but it could be countered pretty easily. Simply redirect the national top level name servers somewhere else and everything would still continue to function normally without any user noticing any change (unless the US side would actually shoot its own foot off by cutting the actual communication channels).

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):
And not a one of you clueless souls has yet been able to refute any one of the facts I cited, nor any of the facts that Klaus inadvertently posted from his own sources which again are

The point that so far has completely eluded you is what the respective contributions to the development of the internet mean.

Your mistake is to construe it as a way to pressure the rest of the world to do your bidding, to set you up in a ruling position with everybody bowing down to kiss your feet.

For some reason that image seems very important to you.


Reality, unfortunately, doesn't support this kind of absolute rule you're so obsessed with.

The internet infrastructure is by now mostly non-american, paid by non-americans and essential to global communication and commerce so there is no way it can remain under solely american supervision regardless of historical merits or developments (even then things wouldn't end up where you'd apparently like them to).

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):
Go ahead, but this time we will collect royalties on the technology. It would be very easy to enforce.

You'd have a full-on trade war on your hands in no time, with an emergency ruling by the WTO against the USA in no doubt at all. It would become a very expensive and onerous adventure for any US administration being stupid enough to try. But some people never learn from previous experiences, I guess.  crazy 

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):
There is not one shred of evidence that ICANN is doing anything other than a superb job at Internet governance.

Well, opinions about that do differ. There is a certain skew to their operations which many in the internet community could live without. Not extremely, but still noticably so.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 33):
I think that this would be a terrible idea. Once control was given to an international body (ie the UN) youi know the next step is to start taxing it to fund what ever "cause of the month" they can think of. And the taxes will just grow from there.

Another bizarre idea right out of tin-foil-hat country. Among all the already existent international administrative bodies (which you're apparently unaware about) there is no precedent to justify this weird idea.
 
eatmybologna
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:21 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 33):

I concur. After reading all posts and reading all links that were suggested, Thumper3181 is right. You others, please stop your ugliness. Oldeuropean, stop being such an asshat!

e-m-b
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 31):
To shut down the internet in times of crisis (Hey, your government feigned WMDs to attack an other country, they are unscrupulous. I don`t trust them an inch). And perhaps to use it like Echelon (for intelligence and industrial and commercial espionage).

Better hide under the bed along with the boogy man then. If you can't trust the U.S. you probably can't trust your own government. No matter how "old" they are. LOL

Trust? Tell it to the Chinese and Yahoo.

[Edited 2005-10-02 02:47:36]
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 38):
Better hide under the bed along with the boogy man then. If you can't trust the U.S. you probably can't trust your own government.

You're kidding, right? Where have you been for the past five years? In outer space?  crazy 
 
bhill
Posts: 1317
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:57 am

ALOHA dear friends.....pun intended...the governtments of the world already control the telecom fabrics of the planet...is it the content or the "pipes" you folks are arguing about?

Cheers
Carpe Pices
 
Thumper3181
Topic Author
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
Thumper3181,
Words fail me.

Yes I can see that from the total lack of any logic in your past posts.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
Apparently, you haven't understand what Europe's position on "controlling the Net" really is.

Would you care to enlighten me where I have got it wrong?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
The few facts you have mentioned are completely irrelevant to what others have said.

Specifically which facts that have been cited are irrelevant?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
Your rants on Europe are embarrassing.

I too would be embarrassed if I where European concerning the behavior of my governments. I do take issue with calling my writing rants. A rant is usually emotional drivel based wholly on opinion with a total disregard for facts. Indeed your posts are a good example of this.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
And than this:

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 32):

Now before you go whining on how it would hurt us just as much I would suggest you check out the following URL: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=US&word2=World
You will see that the vast majority of the Internet exists within the US domain.

Yes in fact according to Google there are 6,220,000,000 Websites in the US and in the entire rest of the world there are 2,780,000,000 Websites. In case you haven't grasped the ramifications of this let me help. The US portion of the Internet is almost three times larger than the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. The rest of the world has far more to lose by losing access to the US portion of the Internet than we do to any other nation.

So lets review shall we? Lets say a certain central European nation who has a history of causing trouble in the world has been reunited after a long period of very justified occupation and foolishly continues to want to create trouble because of excessive national pride. So once they have decided that they would go along with a block of nations to create their own regional Intranet they decide that they do not have to pay royalties to the US taxpayer who pretty much funded the development of the majority of the technologies used as well as the Internet itself. Now just for demonstration purposes lets say this country's root zone domain is .de. A simple programming change in the US root DNS' would reject all packets originating from or destined to the .de domain. That domain is now cut off from almost 75 percent of the Internet. No other could be another country, one friendly to that rogue .de domain that decides that they will help out .de. Their routers will route all packets from .de and to .de from and to US thereby getting around our roadblock. Well eventually we find out and we shut off this "friendly" to .de domain.

As you can see in the end it really does not matter. Go ahead, build another Internet. It will not make a nation any safer from Internet manipulation by the US.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
Your thoughts - as entertaining

At least I have thoughts. All you have are retorts that are not based in any quoted fact what so ever.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
The point that so far has completely eluded you is what the respective contributions to the development of the internet mean.

So I can read this to mean that you acknowledge that the facts presented do not help your argument and you would like to shift tactics. Go right ahead. Please this is a forum to exchange views. Enlighten me as to "what the respective contributions to the development of the internet mean".

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
For some reason that image seems very important to you.

No the image does not. The facts are important to me. It simply is not in my country's interest to put the ultimate control of something so important to our military and economic well being in to the hands of an entity that may or may not have our best interests in mind. This is especially true when we own most of the Internet, and funded it's development. Lastly we reject bullying and insist that private property be respected.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
The internet infrastructure is by now mostly non-american

No one is saying anything about the phone lines or the routers that BT bought from Cisco. We are talking about the backbone of the Internet. Don't you get that yet? You know root servers, technology, software etc.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
You'd have a full-on trade war on your hands in no time, with an emergency ruling by the WTO against the USA in no doubt at all.

The WTO has no standing when it comes to private property.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
Well, opinions about that do differ. There is a certain skew to their operations which many in the internet community could live without. Not extremely, but still noticably so.

Once again I deal with facts and you deal with opinion. Care to cite some examples? Nope, did not think so.

Klaus if I where you I would crawl under a rock and learn the difference between using facts vs opinion and emotion. If I where a sane German I would be embarrassed about you. Germans are supposed to be intelligent people. What happened?
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 41):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
You'd have a full-on trade war on your hands in no time, with an emergency ruling by the WTO against the USA in no doubt at all.

The WTO has no standing when it comes to private property.

Not that the US Government pays any attention to the WTO, they just go ahead and do their own thing anyway.

Personally, I'd feel much more comfortable if a global institution such as the internet was controlled by multiple nations.

[Edited 2005-10-02 04:09:28]
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
What the US controls are the DNS servers.

No, they don't.

N
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:12 am

Thumper,
Perhaps I'll comment on more things you wrote tomorrow. It's 4 a.m. and I should finally get some sleep, so I'm going to adress only this:

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 41):
Yes in fact according to Google there are 6,220,000,000 Websites in the US and in the entire rest of the world there are 2,780,000,000 Websites. In case you haven't grasped the ramifications of this let me help. The US portion of the Internet is almost three times larger than the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. The rest of the world has far more to lose by losing access to the US portion of the Internet than we do to any other nation.

Googlefight is an amusing function that COUNTS WORDS that appear on websites registered at Google's search engine. Of course, the word "us" (similar to "we") appears more often than "world". Just try this: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=USA&word2=World
See? BTW, it proves ... nothing. It has got nothing to do with servers and what not.

The rest of your arguments are not as bad, but pretty much screwed up as well. Good night.

[Edited 2005-10-02 04:15:17]

[Edited 2005-10-02 04:15:52]
I support the right to arm bears
 
eatmybologna
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:21 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 42):

As does the EU. Canada (softwood).
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3268
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 41):
A simple programming change in the US root DNS' would reject all packets originating from or destined to the .de domain. That domain is now cut off from almost 75 percent of the Internet.

Just one problem with that theory, it is very easy to move data around. All that needs to be done to get around this blockade is to move the data from a .DE domain to a .NL domain, a .FR domain, a .US domain etc.

My internet provider is @home in the Netherlands. Most of the time I appear as a Dutch guy. Sometimes the servers at @home route me in an indirect way so I appear American, Zimbabwan or German.
Attamottamotta!
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 18):
Fee free to go and find out what Internet actually means. An international network.

The "inter" portion of internet means international? I wonder what intranet means then? Yeah sure Inter means the same thing as when its in the word "internal".

Why fix what's not broken? Seriously all of these jealous people can't even refute that fact that this would be beneficial in no way.

Thumper is very knowledgeable and in typical a.net fashion no one will apologize or state a factual foundation for their opinions.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Thumper3181
Topic Author
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Inter

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:28 pm

Quoting Bhill (Reply 40):
ALOHA dear friends.....pun intended...the governtments of the world already control the telecom fabrics of the planet...is it the content or the "pipes" you folks are arguing about?

I think you are partially right. All governments either control or can get access to the physical telecommunications infrastructure (pipes) in their own countries. The question is who controls the central valves.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 44):
Googlefight is an amusing function that COUNTS WORDS that appear on websites registered at Google's search engine. Of course, the word "us" (similar to "we") appears more often than "world". Just try this: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=USA&word2=World
See? BTW, it proves ... nothing. It has got nothing to do with servers and what not.

So just add the number of sites with USA in it and the imbalance becomes even greater. You are missing the point.By just bout any metric the US dominates the Internet. Since you don't like googlefight here are just a couple of others.

IP Counts by country US 1,330,066,900, rest of world 1,1,02738,877.
Source http://www.internetworldstats.com/list2.htm

US accounts for over one half of world wide B2B revenues - one trillion dollars of revenue in B2B over the Internet in the US.
Source http://www.nua.ie/surveys/index.cgi?f=VS&art_id=905358753&rel=true

Half of the world domain names are in the US.
Source http://www.zooknic.com/Domains/index.html

And the list goes on.

Good night NoUFO. Try again tomorrow.

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 46):
Just one problem with that theory, it is very easy to move data around. All that needs to be done to get around this blockade is to move the data from a .DE domain to a .NL domain, a .FR domain, a .US domain etc.

True but functionally this is equivalent. That web site which once was in the .de domain is now in the .nl domain. It is no longer controlled by the German Internet "authority". You would also have to change the URL from .de to .nl and update the DNS servers. Further, assuming the IP address did not change the packets could still be traced. So in short sure you can always move, but spoofing short of moving would be tricky if not impossible to do on a commercial basis.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 47):
The "inter" portion of internet means international?

Actually the "inter" in internet has nothing to do with international. An internetwork is a network of networks of different domains. For example you could set up an internetwork between the intranets of say IBM's purchasing department and Intel's purchasing department. It would be an internet (small i) in the fact that it is comprised of two networks under separate administrative control, but it would still be an intranet because no one but the purchasing agents of IBM and Intel have access. The Internet (capital I) is a global network of independent networks.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: European Union Wants To Share Control Of Internet

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:54 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
You're kidding, right? Where have you been for the past five years? In outer space?

5 Years? Outer space? Please. When I hear crap that the U.S. can't be trusted I just shake my head. The U.S. is the most trustworthy country on the face of the earth.

AND YOU KNOW IT!

If not the U.S. Whom? Germany? France? China? Botswana? Norway?

Sorry Klaus, but give me a break. Honestly, a lot of you people in Europe and around the world really have their heads up their asses when defining "trust" and knowing who is trustworthy.

End of your story.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"

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