NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:08 am

"The market changed as it often does. Frequently that means Detroit gets left behind. It never fails."

Art Spinella of CNW Marketing Research Inc.

So here are the latest sales figures for September (year on year change)

GM -24.1%
Ford -20.1%
DaimlerChrysler +4%
Toyota +10.3%
Honda +11.7%

Honda Civic +37%
Honda Civic Hybrid +25%
Toyota Prius +100%
Dodge Neon +69%
Chevy Malibu +25%
Ford F-Series -30%
Ford Explorer, Expedition, Navigator -55%
GM all SUV's, minivan's and truck's -30%

To add to the pressure now both republicans and democrats are demanding higher fuel efficiency standards and are currently moving a bi-partisan amendment on the energy bill through congress that will require fuel efficiency improvements of 3% per year.
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
HAJFlyer
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:34 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:17 am

Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

If not that would certainly explain the drop.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:22 am

>> GM all SUV's, minivan's and truck's -30%

Well, GM minivans are an utter joke. That's no suprise.

The truck and SUV market, however, is the GM bread and butter. This is a significant impact near-term, but sales of large vehicles are expected to pick-up in the 2007 model year. GM is keeping production constant and isn't cutting back their large vehicle plant.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:23 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

Yes, this is the case. I heard a report about US auto sales on the local radio here in Detroit, and that is exactly the reason why Ford and GM are down.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

Well, sales will see a jump with the release of the next Toby Keith cd.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

This was a great idea if you live on the philosophy of give me money now and don't worry about the future. All GM and Ford did was steal from themselves. The people who bought on this sale were going to buy a GM or Ford anyway in the next year or two, those who could do it now, did it.. Now sales will continue to fall for them. They didn't steal any market share away from anyone with their most recent promotion.

Some of the drop may be due to the fact they can't but together a decent car that outlives the payment book. Even their trucks are not what they used to be. I know a few die hard Chevy and Ford pickup drivers looking at Toyota and that new Honda pickup. They just want reliability and fuel economy, GM and Ford will still have the people obsessed with power, status, and the ones who really need towing ability.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
they can't but together a decent car that outlives the payment book.

True non-sense.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
Even their trucks are not what they used to be

Yes, they are a lot better!

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
All GM and Ford did was steal from themselves. The people who bought on this sale were going to buy a GM or Ford anyway in the next year or two, those who could do it now, did it..

Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion?
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:37 am

All the stupid f*cks have to do is market a 100% ethanol vehicle or ANYTHING that doesn't require petroleum-based fuels. If they don't have these vehicles ready to roll because they didn't bother researching and developing them, then they deserve what's coming to them.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion?

No, its common sense. People who were going to buy a GM or Ford vehicle in the near future just did when they offered the sale. Now look for sales to drop because many of the people who can or would buy one of those buckets just did it.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):

True non-sense.

Spoken like an employee

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Yes, they are a lot better!

Yep, he must work there.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
HAJFlyer
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:34 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion

Can you image a Camry or Accord driver switching to a Chevy (except for the a Malibu Maxx which is actually an "Americanised" Opel) ?

That is just about as likely as a BMW driver trading in his ride for a Hyundai.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 9):
That is just about as likely as a BMW driver trading in his ride for a Hyundai.

I switched from an Audi (p.o.sh*t) to a Mercury, and am very happy with it.
My partner sold his Nissan Pathfinder for a Mercury and he is also very happy with it. Both are great cars, and touble free.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Yes, they are a lot better!

Yep, he must work there.

No, but I did save a lot of money on my car insurance!

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):

True non-sense.

Spoken like an employee

Nope, not true.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion?



[quote=CaptOveur,reply=8]Now look for sales to drop because many of the people who can or would buy one of those buckets just did it.

Such 1970's thinking....have you driven a new American Car. They are ranked as good as any european or Japanese car.

Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products.

My last few cars

Chrysler Sebring Convertable No problems
Audi TT Cabrio, Looked cook, but poor ergonomics, towed four times to the dealer
Mercury Sable Wagon, No Problem
Pathfinder LE, towed twice
Pathfinder LE, Towed in twice
SAAB 9000 Turbo, poor ergonomics
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 9):
Can you image a Camry or Accord driver switching to a Chevy

Just the other day I used my Accord to drag start a friend's Chevy pickup (an 04) when his starter crapped out.

Sort of said it all right there.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
HAJFlyer
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:34 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
Audi TT Cabrio, Looked cook, but poor ergonomics, towed four times to the dealer



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
switched from an Audi (p.o.sh*t)

Well the TT is no real Audi but rather a VW Golf that has undergone a radical face lift. The same platform is also used for the mass market Skoda Octavia and Seat Leon.
 
flight152
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:58 am

Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products.

You never listed owning a GM, so how could you even possibly know?
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 12):
Well the TT is no real Audi but rather a VW Golf that has undergone a radical face lift. The same platform is also used for the mass market Skoda Octavia and Seat Leon.

The Audi TT is built on the same platform as the "new" beetle. Not sure if that is the same as the Skoda or Leon.

Never the less, it looked cool, but was really a pain.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 13):
You never listed owning a GM, so how could you even possibly know?

Ok, I only know Ford and Chrysler.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
flight152
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:01 am

Well the TT is no real Audi but rather a VW Golf that has undergone a radical face lift.

Almost every Audi built shares platforms, and drivetrains with VW.
 
HAJFlyer
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:34 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 16):
Almost every Audi built shares platforms, and drivetrains with VW

To the best of my knowledge the A2 (Europe only), the A6 and the A8 are built on dedicated Audi platforms.

VW and Audi also (still) have separate 6 and 8 cylinder engines.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
have you driven a new American Car.

Yeah, I have handled a couple of those wonders of engineering know as GM SUVs, I think I last drove a Blazer (or whatever the hell its called now) about a year and a half ago.. They handle like shit, they float through turns, the steering is very loose, the power is good but thats about it.. At least GM still makes decent seats. I wasn't all that impressed with the ergonomics, and I was surprised to discover that I barely fit in the thing, even with the seat way back.

The last Ford (Mercury) I was in (grand marquis) floated through turns, handled like shit otherwise, and had seats that would make my ass go numb if I sat in them more than 20 minutes. The power was OK but nothing great.

I was recently in a fairly new cavalier (2 years old I think).. the AC was barely putting out cold air, the plastic interior fittings were junk, headliner was already coming down, and the damn radio didn't even work.... and the car would get a wierd vibration sitting at lights. Really made me want to run right out and buy a GM product.

If you want to hear about problems with mid-90s GM and Ford products I can write a book.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:08 am

Cadillac's new XLR roadster was the highest-rated vehicle in the 2004 Total Quality Index, underscoring a sharp comeback for U.S. automotive giant General Motors.

While Japanese automakers fared well, GM and the South Korean carmaker, Hyundai, proved unexpectedly strong contenders. Meanwhile, the study's perennial winner, BMW, was knocked out of the top spot, according to Strategic Vision, the California-based research firm that produces the annual Total Quality Index.


General Motors took the top spot in 10 of 19 separate product segments, with a mix of specialty and mainstream cars, trucks and crossovers. These included the XLR, Chevrolet Malibu, Monte Carlo and Corvette, and Saturn ION and VUE. The study put Cadillac on a nearly equal par with such long-term customer satisfaction leaders as Lexus, Jaguar, and BMW

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7159


New car quality has hit an all-time high, with all but a handful of manufacturers making significant gains in the 2004 J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey.

The oft-quoted annual report, released today, delivers some unexpected surprises, showing how difficult it's become for any carmaker to dominate the quality charts anymore. Undoubtedly the biggest shocker comes from Korea. Long the industry laggard, Hyundai has soared past the traditional quality leader, Toyota. And even the Japanese automaker's premium brand is now getting some stiff competition - from Buick.

For 2004, Power's IQS reveals an 11-percent reduction in the number of problems the typical U.S. new car owner reported when compared to the 2003 survey. That is a positive development, especially as the quality numbers showed no gains in the previous two years.

"This is one of the more significant improvements we've seen," noted Power senior analyst Brian Walters.

What went wrong, Japan?

The IQS is a measure of what can be called "things gone wrong." That can include major problems, such as a blown engine, as well as more minor matters, including poorly placed cupholders. The survey counts up the number of problems participating owners experienced during the first 90 days of ownership, grouping them into nine separate categories. The final figure is calculated in terms of problems per 100 vehicles, or PP100s. Like golf, this contest goes to the lowest score.

And over the decades, the Japanese have consistently delivered industry-leading quality. This year, their products had a score of 111 PP100s, compared with 119 for the industry as a whole. Among individual manufacturers, Lexus was the brand to beat, with a score of 87, meaning less than one problem per vehicle.

Yet the Japanese do not dominate like they have in the past. Some key manufacturers tumbled. Nissan slipped 11 percent, driving it down to the lower tier of the 36 manufacturers Power ranked. Then there's Toyota, the company that first taught the industry the concept of initial quality. In the 2003 survey, the flagship Toyota brand actually suffered a seven-percent decline. It recovers in 2004, its initial quality gaining 14 percent, to 104 problems per 100 vehicles.

Hyundai stuns, Europe falls

But Toyota's gains weren't enough to overcome the most stunning come-from-behind performance of the year. With what Walters called a "surprising" 29-percent improvement, Hyundai sees its problem count drop to 102.

Until recently, Korean makers have anchored the IQS and other quality surveys. In 1998, when Power redesigned the Initial Quality Survey, they had a score of 272, nearly double the problems of the Japanese, at 156. This year, they surge to second place, with a group score of 117 PP100s, comfortably ahead of both Europeans and American automakers.

That underscores just how rapidly things are changing. In 1998, the Europeans, as a group, edged out the Japanese, led by luxury industry stalwarts Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Mercedes has had a number of serious quality problems in recent years, though it does show signs of a turnaround in the 2004 IQS, its score improving 20 percent.

Luxury makers regularly outscore mainstream brands, as one might expect. With a score of 87 this year, Lexus has again proven the brand to beat on the IQS, but several of its competitors are edging closer. Cadillac delivers a count of 93 problems per 100. And with several specific products, another General Motors division nudges even closer to Lexus territory. The Buick Century, which Walters described as "one of the best models in the industry," comes in with 63 PP100.

Individual products can make - or break - a manufacturer's overall score, as Porsche painfully discovered. Its 911 is the top-quality nameplate in the Premium Sports Car category, but overall, Porsche experiences a 36-percent decline, to 159 PP100s, due to the troubled debut of its Cayenne SUV.

"In the past, it was always a risk to buy a new vehicle," said Walters, yet despite the Cayenne's problems, "Our data now show there's less of risk in buying a vehicle its first year out on the market."


http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7086
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:53 am

>> Yet the Japanese do not dominate like they have in the past. Some key manufacturers tumbled. Nissan slipped 11 percent, driving it down to the lower tier of the 36 manufacturers Power ranked. Then there's Toyota, the company that first taught the industry the concept of initial quality.

It's the exact same story with Dell. Once you establish great quality, the market will flock to your product, and the associated surge in demand will make it difficult to maintain said quality.

Dell's legendary quality has lowered a bit in the past few years, but they still dominate the market because they are desirable products. Toyota may have been surpassed by other models, but the fact remains that they are still some of the best products on the road. Can the Buick Century say that?
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
Can the Buick Century say that?

Yes, see above:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):
The Buick Century, which Walters described as "one of the best models in the industry," comes in with 63 PP100.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products

Ummm since Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are also built in the USA by buying one of them are you not supporting the American worker?

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:50 am

>> Yes, see above:

I meant to say, "most desirable" product. How "desirable" is the Buick Century compared to other medium, large sedans? That's why I mentioned the Buick Century by name.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
Ummm since Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are also built in the USA by buying one of them are you not supporting the American worker?

Short answer, no. When we can sell cars in Japan without tariffs, then yes, but until the rest of the world opens their doors as wide as ours, it is not a fair field.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:56 am

No surprise here. If things got really bad I think Ford is better off than GM since Ford has decent products in Europe they could possibly bring over to North America. GM is hopeless in my opinion, their products are simply garbage. Bland, crap quality, resale value similar to KIA and Hyundai.

Kris
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:00 pm

Wasn't there a thread like this yesterday where I said something to the effect of we allowed history(70's) to repeat itself again? Maybe this time we will actually blame the Republicans properly.....Nahhhh..
This space intentionally left blank
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 7):
All the stupid f*cks have to do is market a 100% ethanol vehicle

I think Ford is coming out with an Engine that can run on both Ethanol and Gasoline. So it's at least option in the near future.

Kris
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 27):
So it's at least option in the near future.

An option that should have been perfected ten years ago and ready to go NOW...not "by 2010," as Ford says.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3081
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:26 pm

LAst Week I rented a Loaded??? Taurus on LAX.

I cant believe how bad it isfor a 21 century auto, heck I did not get into big traffic jams and kept it at 65 to 80 MPH and the darn car gave me 21 mpg, what a POS.

Even my wifes Chrysler Town adn Country gives better gas economics at highway speeds.

Basically Detroitwill suffer A LOT as long asthey keep making gaz guzlers and SUVs
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:56 pm

My '05 4X4 Silverado has a flex fuel V8. I have yet to see any ehtanol-mix fueling infrastructure. Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
LeanOfPeak
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:18 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:28 pm

Detroit's been making E85/gas FFV's for a decade.
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:15 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:15 pm

Where's Superfly? I would have expected him to post on this thread.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:46 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:44 pm

Over the last years I've owned European, Korean, Japanese and American vehicles.

I am sorry to say that the American vehicles (Dodge Stratus, Ford Taurus, Chevy Corsica, Dodge Neon) were the most unreliable and the worst in build quality.

Even my wife's Hyundai and my 15-year old Mitsubishi Colt were more reliable than those pieces of junk.

Bottom line : buying an American vehicle (I know, Chrysler is DCA but still) is a mistake I shall (...0) not make agin.

BTW I put GM Europe in the same list.

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
slider
Posts: 6814
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
This is a significant impact near-term, but sales of large vehicles are expected to pick-up in the 2007 model year.

I disagree 100%, especially if fuel prices stay anywhere near where they presently are. I'm not anti-SUV, but have common sense enough to know that the Ford Excursion land barge is not a viable vehicle unless you have a dozen kids, work in the lead-hauling business or need to tow the USS Nimitz.

The gravy train of cash is over for SUVs for the Big Three.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products.

Why doesn't GM, Ford, and especially that piece of shit company Chrysler support ME and reward my loyalty by building a quality product, being innovative, getting outside the box instead of building shit?

I'll buy a Toyota built in Indiana before I buy a Daimler-Chrysler POS built in Mexico.

I'll have to dig up my old oil sludge thread for kicks again if you want a refresher on institutional stupidity.

*********************************

**The technology existed years ago to build large engines with selective cylinders...where are they in production? ie: a big block truck V-8 can run on 4 at cruise speed to conserve fuel and engage more engine power as needed. Where is it?

**Hydrogen powered vehicles are becoming a viable reality. Where is the R&D from Detroit on this? Hmmm?

**Why have the Big Three relied on their financing arms to inflate profitability in recent years and not making them net profitable through production? Where are their labor contracts being reformed? Their pension obligations? They're all a misrun sham that employ far too many people and the gravy train has run out.
 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
I'll buy a Toyota built in Indiana before I buy a Daimler-Chrysler POS built in Mexico.

Hey, I drive a 2002 PT Cruiser and love it. While the 4 cylinders are a bit under-powered and should be getting more than an avg 22mpg, it is a solid, well built vehicle that gives me many of the advantages of an SUV in a much smaller frame.

Having previously owned a 95 Ford Escort, and having rented numerous more recent Ford models on vacation (Focus and Taurus), I can safely say that most Fords are tinny pieces of crap. Cheap interior fittings and lots of wasted space. My recent rental of a new Chevy Impala was not totally horrible, but the ergonomics sucked. I'll go out of my way to rent a Chrysler product over Ford or GM anyday when traveling on business or pleasure.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

If not that would certainly explain the drop.

They still offer it here and it's already October. Chrysler offers it as well.

This doesn't surprise me. The majority of US manufactured cars are not necciesarily the most fuel effecient. While other world car manufacturers are thriving to achieve the most MPG they can achieve, the big 3 are to busy changing a headlight and renaming their vehicles. Mind you, ever since Daimler got involved with Chrysler, things seem to be looking up for them.

I work in the car rental industry and believe me when I tell you that the Ford and GM have some serious quality issues going on. With the amount of time our cars spend in the garage it's only worthwhile for us to use these vehicles thanks to the rebates we get them for. Not only are our cars constantly in the garage, but the horror stories I've heard from our customers when we pick them up from Ford or GM makes you really wonder whats going on with them.

Another Good example is for you to drive a Ford Focus on our side of the Atlantic, then go over to Europe and drive one that was built there. There is such a world of difference it amazes me. The ride, quality in build and material is astonishing. Two completely differnt cars and yet they look identical and share the same name.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1605
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:10 am

I usually stay away from american cars for many of the reasons listed above, but this past summer I was given an '05 chevy malibu by a rental agency in Montreal and I was quite pleased with the fuel mileage. It's got a decent little 2.2L 4 cyl, but I spent most of my trip on the highway and usually saw around 35-38 mpg, which is pretty excellent (and a hell of a lot better than I'm used to in my 350Z) for a non-hybrid car, and quite comparable to any 4cyl small sedan from Europe or Japan. The car was still lacking in things like steering feel and pedal feel, and it had way too much body roll, but I think that the new small cars that GM is producing like this Malibu and the cobalt and their efficient engines, along with the revitalized cadillac brand, could be a new starting point for the company... Ford has shown initiative with the hybrid Escape, and while it doesn't deliver earth-shattering MPG, I hope they make this option available throughout the model range, even on the F series trucks...
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 37):
usually stay away from american cars for many of the reasons listed above, but this past summer I was given an '05 chevy malibu by a rental agency in Montreal and I was quite pleased with the fuel mileage. It's got a decent little 2.2L 4 cyl, but I spent most of my trip on the highway and usually saw around 35-38 mpg, which is pretty excellent (and a hell of a lot better than I'm used to in my 350Z) for a non-hybrid car, and quite comparable to any 4cyl small sedan from Europe or Japan

The Malibu is an Americanized Opel. Anyone know what it's based on? The Sigma maybe?

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 37):
but I think that the new small cars that GM is producing like this Malibu and the cobalt and their efficient engines, along with the revitalized cadillac brand, could be a new starting point for the company

I agree to a point. As mentioned, the Malibu is actually a Euro car and has been well received. I can't say much about the Cobalt though, looks just like a restyled Cavalier (which it is), I just hope it doesn't share the quality issues that the Cavalier has in the past. As far as Cadillac goes, they are going in the right direction (luxury class) but for the amount of money they want for one, they sure do use a lot of cheap plastic inside.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 37):
Ford has shown initiative with the hybrid Escape, and while it doesn't deliver earth-shattering MPG, I hope they make this option available throughout the model range, even on the F series trucks...

I agree 100% on that.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
LeanOfPeak
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:18 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
**The technology existed years ago to build large engines with selective cylinders...where are they in production? ie: a big block truck V-8 can run on 4 at cruise speed to conserve fuel and engage more engine power as needed. Where is it?

All of the Big 3 offer vehicles with Displacement on Demand.

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
**Hydrogen powered vehicles are becoming a viable reality. Where is the R&D from Detroit on this? Hmmm?

All of the Big 3 are performing R&D on this.

Ford has Focuses running around with both fuel cells and hydrogen internal combustion engines and has begun distributing the former in pilot programs, starting with the Florida Department of Environmental Quality. They also have under development a flex-fuel gas/hydrogen ICE for the Mazda RX-8.

GM demonstrated as far back as 2002 a fuel cell S-10 with an on-board gasoline reformer. They've also developed two show cars off a fuel cell "Skateboard," which contains the running gear entirely within the frame (Key words "Hy-wire" and "Autonomy," I believe). If development proceeds as they hope, it has the potential to revolutionize not only propulsion , but also vehicle packaging and flexibility (Need to haul a load of gravel? Take the body off your commuter car, put a pickup body on it...It's a long shot, but it might one day be realistic).

Chrysler also has substantial research underway.

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
**Why have the Big Three relied on their financing arms to inflate profitability in recent years and not making them net profitable through production? Where are their labor contracts being reformed? Their pension obligations? They're all a misrun sham that employ far too many people and the gravy train has run out.

This is an operational criticism that has little to do (Directly, anyway), with the innovativeness or lack thereof of their vehicle designs. It is difficult to attain production profitability when people are convinced that the only well-built product comes from Deutschland or the land of the rising sun. They do also have substantially greater operational baggage than their competitors with no foreseeable means for ridding themselves of it. Combine the two, and the vehicle arms are having a tough time.

Your attitude towards the domestic manufacturers (They build junk and don't innovate) is precisely why they have a difficult time making a value proposition that would allow them to charge a profitmaking price for their vehicles.

I, for what it is worth, find it hilarious that you mention oil sludging and buying and Indiana-built Toyota in the same post.  Smile
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1605
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:27 pm

Speaking of fuel economy, I just finished watching an episode of Tog Gear on Discovery Channel (thank god someone finally has this show in the US) where Clarkson takes an Audi A8 with the diesel 4.0L 8 cyl. turbocharged engine, and drives on a single tank of gas from Milton Keynes (I think that's just outside london) to Edinburgh, Scotland and back, almost 800 miles... he averaged just about 40 mpg through traffic and poor weather. Incredible when you consider that he was in a big displacement, high weight luxury car. If we can't have widespread hybrids in the US, at least give us diesels... all the old negatives like thick smog on startup and poor smells at idle at a stoplight (not to mention the sounds of a truck under acceleration) have been minimized by the latest common rail motors with direct injection, which by the way helped Audi win Le Mans in its R8 with superior economy, and I believe the market is ready for the major US companies to begin mirroring Euro drivetrains with their proliferation of diesels at the very least...

[Edited 2005-10-06 06:30:49]
 
LeanOfPeak
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:18 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:58 pm

The market will be readier with low-sulfur fuel.
 
slider
Posts: 6814
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
I, for what it is worth, find it hilarious that you mention oil sludging and buying and Indiana-built Toyota in the same post.

Yes, I'm aware of VW, Toyota and Audi all having oil sludge problems along with Chrysler.

And guess what? Here's the "Paul Harvey rest of the story" for you....

Toyota extended the warranties to 100k miles, issued a recall and did full engine replacements and repairs for the affected engines. Chrysler wet their pants and stonewalled, deciding to blame their owners for shoddy mx practices when that was seldom the case.

It took the threat of a class action lawsuit and the quantifiable damages of bad PR and the grass roots riot for them to finally address it.

So Toyota built brand loyalty by offering a suitable remedy. And people wonder why the animus toward American manufacturers.

Look at Ford's handling of the cruise control switch on the trucks and SUVs...perfect example.

**********************

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
All of the Big 3 offer vehicles with Displacement on Demand.

Then why isn't it advertised? With gas at $3 a freaking gallon, the TV, radio and billboards ought to be plastered with this efficiency and engineering breakthrough....where is it?

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
All of the Big 3 are performing R&D on this.

Ooohh....aaahhhh....ohhhhhh....R&D. Talk is cheap. Build it, market it, make it cost effective and kick it in the ass and get it done. Mazda isn't letting the grass grow under their feet on this.

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
This is an operational criticism that has little to do (Directly, anyway), with the innovativeness or lack thereof of their vehicle designs.

I disagree...I think the fact that their financing arms have driven their profitability HAS taken away from their design and production efforts. Complacency and laziness.

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
It is difficult to attain production profitability when people are convinced that the only well-built product comes from Deutschland or the land of the rising sun.

That's a copout. I want to buy American. God knows I WANT to freaking believe them. I would love to take the risk, but sadly, I shouldn't have to take a risk when buying a certain brand or plate. If this is the paradigm, then fix it. Change it. CONVINCE me otherwise!!!

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
They do also have substantially greater operational baggage than their competitors with no foreseeable means for ridding themselves of it. Combine the two, and the vehicle arms are having a tough time.

Situation of their making and one they're going to have to get out of sooner or later.

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 39):
Your attitude towards the domestic manufacturers (They build junk and don't innovate) is precisely why they have a difficult time making a value proposition that would allow them to charge a profitmaking price for their vehicles.

If they want to eliminate that perception, then they need to quit building junk and get innovative. And they need to support their product far better than they have. The manufacturer/dealer relationship is all screwed up, that's a structural problem right there.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 41):
The market will be readier with low-sulfur fuel.

You mean like the low sulfur Diesel we already run?



High sulfur still exists, but not for road use.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
LeanOfPeak
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:18 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 42):
Toyota extended the warranties to 100k miles, issued a recall and did full engine replacements and repairs for the affected engines.

All well and good, but it doesn't help you if your car is older than a '97. They also dragged their feet coming to that resolution.

Quoting Slider (Reply 42):
Then why isn't it advertised? With gas at $3 a freaking gallon, the TV, radio and billboards ought to be plastered with this efficiency and engineering breakthrough....where is it?

The only advertising (From anyone) that mentions DOD that I can remember was by Chrysler. I imagine everyone else figures that either the MPG is impressive or it isn't; What magic goes to making the MPG is probably considered secondary.

Quoting Slider (Reply 42):
Ooohh....aaahhhh....ohhhhhh....R&D. Talk is cheap. Build it, market it, make it cost effective and kick it in the ass and get it done. Mazda isn't letting the grass grow under their feet on this.

First, Mazda is Ford. Second, who's doing more than the domestics? I told you Ford has fuel cell Focuses in pilot programs NOW, starting with the Florida DEQ. That Honda has gone to the publicity stunt of putting a SINGLE FCX in private hands is of minimal significance to me. Fleet cars will be far more instructive in the continued development of the technology.

Quoting Slider (Reply 42):
That's a copout. I want to buy American. God knows I WANT to freaking believe them. I would love to take the risk, but sadly, I shouldn't have to take a risk when buying a certain brand or plate. If this is the paradigm, then fix it. Change it. CONVINCE me otherwise!!!

...How? The only way to convince people is to build better cars, get them on the road, and get people talking to friends and neighbors. They're doing that now, but it doesn't happen overnight. JD Power says the IQ differential has basically closed. Public perception will take a little longer to roll around.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 43):
You mean like the low sulfur Diesel we already run?

High sulfur still exists, but not for road use.

All right, I apologize for not using the real term. Ultra-low sulfur diesel...That stuff that's coming next year.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 44):
All right, I apologize for not using the real term. Ultra-low sulfur diesel...That stuff that's coming next year.

We call that stuff City Diesel over here, it's easier to market that way. Our gasoline is also ULS nowadays.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 44):
Ultra-low sulfur diesel...That stuff that's coming next year.

At an additional cost.. Eventually we will make fuels so clean nobody will buy them.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 46):
At an additional cost.. Eventually we will make fuels so clean nobody will buy them.

the cost difference is minimal to the end user so your bitching doesn't hold up. Converting our diesel supplies to City Diesel was fairly painless.

If you are implying that using dirty fuels because they are cheaper is smart then you belong in a cave with that kind of thinking. Clean, efficient fuel is the future. Having it available for cars widely is only going to increase takeup of efficient turbodiesel engines rather than gasoline guzzling monsters.

The refining cost is more than offset by the economy that newer diesels provide along with power and reliability.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
slider
Posts: 6814
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 44):
...How? The only way to convince people is to build better cars, get them on the road, and get people talking to friends and neighbors. They're doing that now, but it doesn't happen overnight. JD Power says the IQ differential has basically closed. Public perception will take a little longer to roll around.

I agree with you there to an extent.

It will take some time, but they cannot sacrifice quality for expediency.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 47):
the cost difference is minimal to the end user so your bitching doesn't hold up.

Tell that to someone in the transportation industry who buys 300 gallons of it at a time a few times a week. Now multiply that by 10 or 20, a number representing the fleet of a small transportation business.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 47):
Clean, efficient fuel is the future.

In that case so are higher prices on everything.. Your crap has to get to the store somehow.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 47):
The refining cost is more than offset by the economy that newer diesels provide along with power and reliability.

New heavy truck diesels are going backwards.. The last generation N-14 Cummins (set at 425hp) got, on average, in a 20 truck fleet I know of personally, 7mpg fleetwide.. The new generation Cummins ISX diesels are around 5mpg with the same horsepower settings.. The new emissions crap is increasing vehicle weight and losing efficiency in other areas as well. The exhaust gas is not even that much cleaner than it already was.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: seb146, USPIT10L and 7 guests