tbar220
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Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:29 pm

It's about damn time!

***

Senate Supports Interrogation Limits
90-9 Vote on the Treatment of Detainees Is a Bipartisan Rebuff of the White House

By Charles Babington and Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, October 6, 2005; Page A01

The Senate defied the White House yesterday and voted to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.

Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties. The White House had fought to prevent the restrictions


Washington Post

***

I don't know how much of an effect this has, but its about time something like this passed. I have respect for McCain for pushing for this sort of bill.

Now.... who were the Republicans (of course) in the Senate who voted against this?

Allard (R-CO)
Bond (R-MO)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Stevens (R-AK)
(Source)
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:53 pm

I'm glad McCain initiated this bill.

My single concern is: Aside from a few US Senators, how many of them (not too damn many) ever spent a day in a military uniform and have any reference?

I'm all for stemming torture and brutality, but I am concerned that the already rather plush conditions at Gitmo are going to be declared substandard . . . shit, our troops are living in worse condition! What exactly is the content of the bill? Have a link TBar?

Furthermore - I think it almost a waste of legislation in that we already have the rules and regulations that specifiy what is and is not permissible. Now, before anyone goes off the deep end, I recognize some of them were broken. The abusers have been punished.

Isn't this legislation a waste of paper? It's already a federal offense to abuse a prisoner. Political posturing . . . re-election posturing? "Look what I helped pass in the Senate"?

I can see it now . . . a POW camp with curtains, AC, waxed tile floors, maid service.

Where is the line drawn.
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searpqx
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:01 pm

The fact that Congress felt the need to step in and pass such a bill is much more an indictment of the administration, and its handling of the prisoners from Iraq and Afghanistan, than it is of the military. As ANC says, we already have federal and military laws that prohibit torture and abuse. I think there is a feeling in congress that the current administration is willing to ignore/sidestep those laws, and this is there non to subtle way of reminding Bush and crew to watch it. I think if the administration had been much more forthcoming in how they were handling the prisoners, hadn't fought so hard to keep those in Gitmo sequestered, etc,. this never would have come to pass.
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mdsh00
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:09 pm

I think the passage of this bill is a sign of a growing rift between the administration and Congressional Republicans. The fact that only NINE Republicans (the only 9 to vote "nay") voted against it, speaks volumes.
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tbar220
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:09 pm

ANC,

I'll look up the text of the bill itself tomorrow, I have to go to sleep now and go to class in the morning. Interesting points though.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:19 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Furthermore - I think it almost a waste of legislation in that we already have the rules and regulations that specifiy what is and is not permissible. Now, before anyone goes off the deep end, I recognize some of them were broken. The abusers have been punished.



Quoting Searpqx (Reply 2):
The fact that Congress felt the need to step in and pass such a bill is much more an indictment of the administration, and its handling of the prisoners from Iraq and Afghanistan, than it is of the military.

What I got out of the article was there was confusion amongst the rank and file as to what their actual instructions are. This bill just puts it in black and white. I've never been in the military, so I don't know what the rule book says or how it's taught, so I can't speak for that side of it, but if officers up to generals are saying "we need help to clarify this for our rank and file", I'm glad that McCain responded with something apparently clear and concise.

From the link:

McCain said military officers have implored Congress for guidelines, adding that he mourns "what we lose when by official policy or by official negligence we allow, confuse or encourage our soldiers to forget . . . that which is our greatest strength: that we are different and better than our enemies."
[...]
... standards are needed to clear up confusion among U.S. troops that may have led to the mistreatment alleged at the Navy's Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba and to the abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
[...]
Powell joins a growing group of retired generals and admirals who blame prison abuse on "ambiguous instructions," as the officers wrote in a recent letter. They urged restricting interrogation methods to those outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation, the parameters that McCain's measure would establish.
McCain cited a letter he received from Army Capt. Ian Fishback, who has fought in Afghanistan and Iraq. "Over 17 months, he struggled to get answers from his chain of command to a basic question: What standards apply to the treatment of enemy detainees?" McCain said. "But he found no answers. . . . The Congress has a responsibility to answer this call."
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We're Nuts
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:23 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I can see it now . . . a POW camp with curtains, AC, waxed tile floors, maid service.

Maybe it will open the lines of communication!
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AeroWesty
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:31 pm

This is the link to McCain's statement on his amendment. Pretty interesting read:

http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?f...r.ViewPressRelease&Content_id=1611
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
McCain said military officers have implored Congress for guidelines, adding that he mourns "what we lose when by official policy or by official negligence we allow, confuse or encourage our soldiers to forget . . . that which is our greatest strength: that we are different and better than our enemies."

That's a cop out by chicken shit military leaders that KNOW the answer but want someone to dictate it to them like children . . . . another example of the leadership failings in today's military - afraid to make a decision and afraid to have the gut to make the hard calls . . . this way - the senior leadership, the same ones asking for black and white guidance, can also say . . . "Gee we were just following orders". It's   , Westy.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
McCain cited a letter he received from Army Capt. Ian Fishback, who has fought in Afghanistan and Iraq. "Over 17 months, he struggled to get answers from his chain of command to a basic question: What standards apply to the treatment of enemy detainees?" McCain said. "But he found no answers. . . . The Congress has a responsibility to answer this call."

I feel for the Captain - however, Congress shouldn't make 'the call'. What Congress should do is put a boot in Dumsfeld's ass and ask him why, damnit, Mr. Secretary of Defense, don't these soldiers have clear, concise guidance in the field? Why, Mr. Secretary of Defense, does an Army Officer have to write his Congressman to get guidance on treatment of Prisoners of War? Why Mr. Secretary of Defense haven't YOU already handled this - you gawddamn arrogant dictatorial SOB?"

That's the right answer!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
They urged restricting interrogation methods to those outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation, the parameters that McCain's measure would establish.

What this tells me is:

The Army KNOWS what to do, based on regulatory guidance but has been directed to do 'other things'. Otherwise why would they ask that interrogation techniques be restricted to those already in place and outlined in FMs! Something damn sure smells fishy here - and it ain't a $500K paintjob on an AS 734!

[Edited 2005-10-06 10:34:41]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:31 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
That's a cop out by chicken shit military leaders that KNOW the answer but want someone to dictate it to them like children

I'm so glad I've learned to put down my drink before opening a thread. Big grin

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Why Mr. Secretary of Defense haven't YOU already handled this - you gawddamn arrogant dictorial SOB?"

That's why I posted McCain's press release. I was surprised he didn't mention Rummy once. Not once! You've just confirmed my suspicions tho.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Something damn sure smells fishy here - and it ain't a $500K paintjob on an AS 734!

LOL! Yeah, there's a lot more to this story. 2008?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:38 pm

""including General Joseph Hoar, who commanded Centcom; General John Shalikashvili, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs; RADM John Hutson and RADM Don Guter, who each served as the Navy’s top JAG; and LTGEN Claudia Kennedy, who served as Deputy Chief of Staff for Army Intelligence. ""

Pretty distinguished list . . . particularly Gen Shali . . .

""We stand for something more in the world – a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies. ""

Damn I hope he runs again. . . .
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searpqx
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:43 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
The Army KNOWS what to do, based on regulatory guidance but has been directed to do 'other things'.

Which takes me back to the feeling that this isn't so much about the military as it is a warning shot 'cross the bow' of the Administration.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:44 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
"We stand for something more in the world Ð a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They donÕt deserve our sympathy. But this isnÕt about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies."

That caught my eye too. That to me isn't a shot across the bow, that's a direct hit, and he's aiming it right at the top.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:47 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 11):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
The Army KNOWS what to do, based on regulatory guidance but has been directed to do 'other things'.

Which takes me back to the feeling that this isn't so much about the military as it is a warning shot 'cross the bow' of the Administration.

And I've professed that sentiment over and over in this forum regarding those enlisted personnel now serving their deserved time time for their error. And the heirarchy is fat, dumb and happy in D.C.

Damn it pisses me off.  irked  irked  irked 
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Thorben
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:25 am

What I like best about McCain's statement is:

Quote:

Mr. President, to fight terrorism we need intelligence. That much is obvious. What should also be obvious is that the intelligence we collect must be reliable and acquired humanely, under clear standards understood by all our fighting men and women. To do differently would not only offend our values as Americans, but undermine our war effort, because abuse of prisoners harms – not helps – us in the war on terror. First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop. Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops who might be captured by the enemy – if not in this war, then in the next. And third, prisoner abuses exact on us a terrible toll in the war of ideas, because inevitably these abuses become public. When they do, the cruel actions of a few darken the reputation of our country in the eyes of millions. American values should win against all others in any war of ideas, and we can’t let prisoner abuse tarnish our image.

The Army Field Manual authorizes interrogation techniques that have proven effective in extracting life-saving information from the most hardened enemy prisoners. It is consistent with our laws and, most importantly, our values. Let us not forget that al-Qaeda sought not just to destroy American lives on September 11, but American values – our way of life and all we cherish. We fight not just to preserve our lives and liberties but also American values, and we will never allow the terrorists to take those away. In this war that we must win - that we will win - we must never simply fight evil with evil.

The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies.

I'm relieved to see that America still has politicians that struggle to keep those values in place that have made it such an admired country. This is the America we loved over here. Not like the one that Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfowitz have created. They have ruined the US' reputation all over the world. I just hope this haunting is over in a few years and a new administration can bring the real America back, while the years under Bush serve as a bad example for generations.
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L-188
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:49 am

This bill will get the appropriate veto, if it gets past the house.

Fact is as allready mentioned, it is already a crime to abuse prisoners.

I would like to take a moment to thank those 9 senators that chose to continue to fight the war on terrorism and give the military the tools it needs to do the job.
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tbar220
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:34 pm

L-188,

Is torture a tool in the war on terror?
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N1120A
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:47 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
but I am concerned that the already rather plush conditions at Gitmo are going to be declared substandard . . .

Yeah, I am sure there are plenty of US soldiers who would love their Bibles pissed on by someone  sarcastic 

Come on people, I have personally spoken to the attorney for an AMERICAN CITIZEN who was taken by US operatives in Morroco to a Morrocan "interrogation" room and who was beaten every day, and had his penis cut with a razor blade once a month for more than half a year. This  redflag  has got to stop. Abu Ghraib was not some isolated frat party in the desert, this happens all the time at the behest of those in the Bush government and is completely and totally illegal under international law (codified in US law by treaty and therefore superceding all other laws except the Constitution itself, as provided by the treaty power of the Constitution), as well as by our Constitution.
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L-188
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:10 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 16):
Is torture a tool in the war on terror?

Define torture, Because I don't think it is when you have detanee's in better living conditions then our troops are in, but yet we have these left wingers claiming that it is.
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Thorben
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:26 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
Define torture, Because I don't think it is when you have detanee's in better living conditions then our troops are in, but yet we have these left wingers claiming that it is.

Better conditions than your troops???? Do the troops live in dark rooms, where somebody plays loud rock-music 24-7? Are they never allowed to sleep, blinded with light, exposed to extreme heat or cold on purpose? Are people spitting on their religious beliefs? I guess not!
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:32 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Do the troops live in dark rooms, where somebody plays loud rock-music 24-7? Are they never allowed to sleep, blinded with light, exposed to extreme heat or cold on purpose? Are people spitting on their religious beliefs?

If you consider this TORTURE you're pretty damned naive . . .

As for the living conditions . . . I defy you to prove that the cots, sheets, pillows etc at GitMo are less comfortable than the quarters afforded some of our troops.
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Thorben
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
If you consider this TORTURE you're pretty damned naive . . .

Of course it is torture, what else do you think it is? Child games?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
As for the living conditions . . . I defy you to prove that the cots, sheets, pillows etc at GitMo are less comfortable than the quarters afforded some of our troops.

Do the troops live in cages without proper walls, like animals??
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
Of course it is torture, what else do you think it is? Child games?

It's not torture, and it's not even close . . . .like I said, if you think it is you're naive . . . terribly naive.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
Do the troops live in cages without proper walls, like animals??

No, not at all, in some cases they don't live enclosed in anything . . . once again . . . oh, and those three square meals a day they get come out of a bag most often . . . nothing like that specially designed cuisine at GitMo.

Spare me.
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aloges
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
If you consider this TORTURE you're pretty damned naive . . .

I beg to differ. What he described is psychological torture, the most notable part of it being sleep deprivation. It can harm a prisoner's psychological and physical health, and therefore it is torture if done intentionally.
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aloges
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:11 am

Thorben,

while I was equally shocked and disgusted by the Abu Ghuraib (or however I'm supposed to spell that) photos as most people, I think you ought to take GTMO with a grain of salt.

A) Yes of course, holding people for years without any charges whatsoever is totally unacceptable, especially if the country engaging in it claims to "spread democracy and freedom" around the world.

B) Remember what those RAF terrorists in Stammheim prison did to the public back in the 70s. They were treated in accordance with human rights and anti-torture treaties, yet they managed to manipulate public opinion in a way that got them some sort of sympathies from gullible people. Effectively, they coordinated further terrorist activities from inside the prison and were allowed things no other prisoner was allowed, yet they still managed to sell themselves as "mistreated victims". I have no doubt al-Qaeda is capable of pulling off similar stunts.
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L-188
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Do the troops live in dark rooms, where somebody plays loud rock-music 24-7

Hell, when I was in the service we called that a slow Friday night.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Are they never allowed to sleep, blinded with light, exposed to extreme heat or cold on purpose?

Sounds like a field problem.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Are people spitting on their religious beliefs? I guess not!

Religion no, their career choice, yes.....See Jane Fonda, Cindy Shehan and Joan Baez.
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11Bravo
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:35 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 24):
A) Yes of course, holding people for years without any charges whatsoever is totally unacceptable, especially if the country engaging in it claims to "spread democracy and freedom" around the world.

Twenty years from now this is how this whole Gitmo thing will be remembered. I think the treatment issue is, for the most part largely benign, but the lack of due process for these prisoners will be judged very severely. The whole thing makes a mockery of the fundamental American ideals of due process and respect for the rule of law.

If the prisoners at Gitmo are terrorists, and I suspect that most of them really are, then put the bastards on trial. If and when they’re convicted, give ‘em life or the death penalty, or whatever’s appropriate and legal. I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is locking these people up with no charges, no legal council, and no due process. That just isn’t what this country is about. That is not the America I grew up in, and it’s not the America that I risked my life to defend. Like McCain said, this is not about how horrible these scum prisoners are, it’s about us and our values. The rule of law is the very foundation of our country. With out it, we have nothing.
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tbar220
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:34 pm

Guantanamo Hunger Strike Enters Third Month

A hunger strike at the U.S.-run prison camp at Guantanamo Bay has entered its third month. At least 22 detainees have been hospitalized and are being force fed through nasal tubes and IVs. The number of detainees taking part in the hunger strike is in dispute. The Center for Constitutional Rights estimates 210 detainees are on hunger strike. The U.S. military says that as many as 130 took part in the strike but that only 26 are still refusing to eat.


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/10/1335207

***

Is this a sign of prisoners being treated fairly? Make what you will of it.
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Thorben
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:52 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
It's not torture, and it's not even close . . . .like I said, if you think it is you're naive . . . terribly naive.

Just read this.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
I beg to differ. What he described is psychological torture, the most notable part of it being sleep deprivation. It can harm a prisoner's psychological and physical health, and therefore it is torture if done intentionally.

No more needs to be said. ANC, if you still don't get it, I'm just wasting my time.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 24):
B) Remember what those RAF terrorists in Stammheim prison did to the public back in the 70s. They were treated in accordance with human rights and anti-torture treaties, yet they managed to manipulate public opinion in a way that got them some sort of sympathies from gullible people. Effectively, they coordinated further terrorist activities from inside the prison and were allowed things no other prisoner was allowed, yet they still managed to sell themselves as "mistreated victims". I have no doubt al-Qaeda is capable of pulling off similar stunts.

I'm too young to remember these RAF stories, but from my understanding they were defeated by the "Rechtsstaat", not by torture, human rights violation etc. And the American "war on terror" has created enough real "mistreated victims".

L-188, you're trying to be funny?? You're not.

11Bravo, I agree with you, although I think a lot of those at Gitmo and other jails are not terrorists, but just people who have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:03 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 26):
If the prisoners at Gitmo are terrorists, and I suspect that most of them really are, then put the bastards on trial. If and when they’re convicted, give ‘em life or the death penalty, or whatever’s appropriate and legal. I have no problem with that.

 checkmark 

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 26):
Like McCain said, this is not about how horrible these scum prisoners are, it’s about us and our values.

 checkmark 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 28):
No more needs to be said. ANC, if you still don't get it, I'm just wasting my time.

Yes, you're wasting your time as I disagree . . . sleep deprivation is lightweight crap . . . if you consider it torture, you're too soft.

The prisoners at GitMo are treated better - and have a better living environment - than most of our field troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have nothing to piss and moan about,. That simple. Anyone thinks they have it 'hard' is outta their minds. Clean sheets, specific menu and diet, prayer rugs, I have no sympathy for their lifestyle.

I don't condone torture and never have . . . but the GitMo detainees, prisoners, call 'em whatever, have it nice . . . hell, they've likely got a better standard of living now than they had running around Baghdad or Kabul!
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Thorben
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RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:44 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
Yes, you're wasting your time as I disagree . . . sleep deprivation is lightweight crap . . . if you consider it torture, you're too soft.

Yea, probably I'm too soft. But we're talking about someone being in a closed room, with harsh light on, loud music on, and the temperature going from freeze to hot. Try that for yourself, and not just ten minutes, but really long hours. If that is done long enough, it is torture, no matter what you, or Alberto Gonzalez, or anybody else says about it.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
The prisoners at GitMo are treated better - and have a better living environment - than most of our field troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have nothing to piss and moan about,. That simple. Anyone thinks they have it 'hard' is outta their minds. Clean sheets, specific menu and diet, prayer rugs, I have no sympathy for their lifestyle.

Hoods over their heads, driven around in bondage wheelbarrows, not having walls in that rough weather,a nd being held without knowing what will happen to them. I have no sympathy for that, either.

Read this and tell me what you think about it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3706050.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4247805.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3500156.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4210815.stm
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:54 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 30):
Hoods over their heads, driven around in bondage wheelbarrows, not having walls in that rough weather,a nd being held without knowing what will happen to them. I have no sympathy for that, either.

The only issue in this statement that concerns me is their being held without knowledge of what will happen in the future . . . nothing else bothers me.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3706050.stm
Mr. Beggs was the featured detainee in this story . . . all of what he says is hearsay. As you and I have already concluded, one man's torture is another man's normalcy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4247805.stm
Made for TV bullshit . . . period.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3500156.stm
Old news. They are no longer in jail. There is no mention of torture. Why am I reading this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4210815.stm
Ditto . . .

Again, I don't condone torture . . . and other than the cases that have already been aggressively prosecuted . . . resulting in federal jail time for the sorry excuses for soldiers that committed these acts . . . I don't see anything new . . . . or untoward.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits

Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
No, not at all, in some cases they don't live enclosed in anything . . . once again . . . oh, and those three square meals a day they get come out of a bag most often . . . nothing like that specially designed cuisine at GitMo.

Didn't they v-o-l-u-n-t-e-e-r???

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
Yes, you're wasting your time as I disagree . . . sleep deprivation is lightweight crap . . . if you consider it torture, you're too soft.

ANC, why don't you go down to Guantanamo for a month or two-long "vacation" to enjoy the "hospitality" of your government and write us a trip report? I'd be curious to see if you'd pretend to be such a wannabe tough guy even after coming back???

The thing I don't understand about you is your agreement in one of your posts with this quote:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
""We stand for something more in the world – a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies. ""

and then you try to find pathetic excuse for whatever awful shit is going on down in Guantanamo in the very next one.
Somehow, I have hard time to believe that respect for human rights and law is still what distinguishes the islamist scum from the Bush government and the way they handle this whole "war on terror"???

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