ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:03 am

A larger than expected voter turn out, few insurgent attacks disrupt the process.

What say you . . .

Successful voting process?

Progress on the Iraqi Constitution?

Insurgency waning?

Iraqi people beginning to believe in their Democracy?


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/15/iraq.main/index.html
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051011060409990001
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Klaus
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:14 am

Near-Desperate invasion supporters now lowering their standards to "few insurgent attacks" already being a good sign...?

Excuse my sarcasm, but despite the positive aspects which are certainly there, I don't see much reason to be jubilant. Especially when it's not at all clear that the ultimate outcome won't be yet another misogynist sharia-based state which is ruled by religious or tribal leaders, even if the terrorists / insurgents should actually not be able to incite an all-out civil war...
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
Near-Desperate invasion supporters now lowering their standards to "few insurgent attacks" already being a good sign...?

You miss the entire point here Klaus. I didn't declare support for or against. I asked questions - your opinion of the vote - nothing more. Your entire first sentence is irrelevent and in this thread, worthless. All I did was quote the sources. You continue to demonstrate the opposite of what you profess to despise. Unfortunate. Furthermore, I don't see anywhere that there is jubliation displayed, except perhaps for the smiling faces on some Iraqi's I've seen in the news.

Your single, valid point in your post is here:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
when it's not at all clear that the ultimate outcome won't be yet another misogynist sharia-based state which is ruled by religious or tribal leaders,
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Logan22L
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Iraqi people beginning to believe in their Democracy?

Well, I hope so, but I also hope that they do not confuse a democracy with a means to have a true voice. There are a number of political options open to countries of the world, and that in the US is probably the best, but it by no means ensures anything shy of corruption. Sorry if you all have been blinded.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:33 am

I am impressed, this thread started spiraling down the toilet with the first response.

I am glad they voted, I hope it all works out for them. If only we could get people in this country as excited about voting.
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Logan22L
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 4):
If only we could get people in this country as excited about voting.

If only we could get people in this country to understand that the right to vote means nothing more than that. Try to understand. The system is corrupt. No matter who you vote for, it does not really matter. It really is that simple. Sorry, but in some X number of years, when a liberal is in the Whitehouse, I will still feel this way.

It really sucks, and the politicians are laughing all the way to the bank with our taxes and their pensions - all for accomplishing next to nothing. This is the greatest country in the world. How come our politicians have no great ideas???????
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:45 am

I think it's really too early to tell what's happening there yet as there still seems to be a lot of Sunni opposition to the constitution. Earlier I read this article on the BBC site that had an interesting bit to it that was similar to the CNN link but worded a little differently:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4346322.stm

"If voters in three of Iraq's 18 provinces muster a two-thirds majority against the constitution, it will fail.

Official estimates suggest that in seven provinces more than two-thirds of voters did participate - including three where the majority of voters are Sunnis.

The Sunnis are dominant in four provinces, and some of their leaders believe they might have managed to block the constitution."


Voter turnout in the Kurdish north was lower than expected, which surprises me, since the Kurds were so severely oppressed under Saddam. It'll be an interesting count to watch over the next few days.
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Falcon84
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:59 am

A good sign, but I want to see what they Iraqi do when an occupying army isn't watching over such an election. If milions come out then, I might start to think they have a chance.

People usually do what it thinks an occupying army wants it to do. The proof in the pudding will be when said army is gone from the scene.

I think after we leave, they will vote for a government, but I think it will end up being an Iran-styled Islamic government. That's what I think the legacy of this invasion will ultimately end up being. IF, and a big IF, it would be a government without support for terrorism or in stirring the pot, the way Iran does, or the way Saddam did, then I can live with that.

It's just too early to tell. But it is encouraging.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:34 am

I usually read the IHT for a lot of my news, and the link below is the article they've posted on the election. It's a bit of a long read, and contradicts some of what was reported from other sources. Interesting closing quotes to it tho:

(The content at this link may change--usually there's an article #, not an article date in the URL. It should take you to "Iraqis vote on new constitution". There's also a link to the constitution that's being voted on in the left column of the page, if you're so interested.)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/14/news/iraq.php

Some Iraqis drew contrasts with the election three years ago to the day, for Saddam Hussein. "I voted then, for Saddam, of course, because I was afraid," said Jabar Ahmed Ismail, 75, living on a $100-a-month pension from a lifetime as an oil pipeline repairman. "But this time, I came here by my own choice. I am not afraid anymore. I am a free man."

A Sunni, Mr. Ismail said he had voted for the constitution, despite appeals by many Sunni leaders for it to be rejected, and threats from Islamic militants to kill anybody participating in it. He said he did not really know what was in the constitution, but the fact that his opinion had been sought was enough for him to back it. "It gives me hope in God, and in my fellow men," he said. As for the insurgents, he said, they were "infidels," and added: "I don't accept them," he said. "I don't know what they want."
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11Bravo
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Successful voting process?

The answer to that is clearly yes. We have now seen two elections with 60% +/- voter turnout. I would say the mechanics of the process are functional.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Progress on the Iraqi Constitution?

We’ll know the results in a week to ten days apparently. If it passes, we’ll have to see how the Sunnis react, and more importantly, how it’s structure and function is respected by all parties. Remember, the Soviet Union had a pretty nice constitution, but nobody followed it.

If it doesn’t pass, I think our Iraq policy is in even more trouble than it is now.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Insurgency waning?

I don't think there's any reason to believe that, and General Casey said exactly that to the Congress two weeks ago.

There were some very bad assumptions made about the strength of the insurgency in the wake of the last election because there wasn’t major violence associated with the balloting. It would be a mistake to do that again here. This insurgency is following classic tactics straight from the Che Guevara school of revolutionary war. Attack the enemy on your terms where he is weak, not on his terms where he is strong.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Iraqi people beginning to believe in their Democracy?

As I’ve said to you before, the real question is whether the Iraqi security forces “believe in their democracy” and whether they will fight for it. Two weeks ago the White House claimed there were now 80 line battalions in the Iraqi security force. That is roughly the equivalent of 8 US Army divisions. If the Iraqi forces can’t secure the country with 80 line battalions, we are still in a very bad spot. Either the White House is telling fish stories again, or these Iraqi forces are nowhere near being effective.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
Some Iraqis drew contrasts with the election three years ago to the day, for Saddam Hussein. "I voted then, for Saddam, of course, because I was afraid," said Jabar Ahmed Ismail, 75, living on a $100-a-month pension from a lifetime as an oil pipeline repairman. "But this time, I came here by my own choice. I am not afraid anymore. I am a free man."

A Sunni, Mr. Ismail said he had voted for the constitution, despite appeals by many Sunni leaders for it to be rejected, and threats from Islamic militants to kill anybody participating in it. He said he did not really know what was in the constitution, but the fact that his opinion had been sought was enough for him to back it. "It gives me hope in God, and in my fellow men," he said. As for the insurgents, he said, they were "infidels," and added: "I don't accept them," he said. "I don't know what they want."

This single quote says a hell of a lot. And I don't care what Klaus says, it's not me being quoted here, it's an Iraqi Sunni who has figured it out . . . figured out that he at least has a voice . . . might not be a popular voice . . . but he has a voice. That's a good start. Hopefully there are a million or so more Mr. Ismails out there . . . .

Please pay particular attention to the last sentence quoting Mr. Ismail.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 9):
If it passes, we’ll have to see how the Sunnis react, and more importantly, how it’s structure and function is respected by all parties.

Agreed . . . quote from the article:
The U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, demurred Friday when asked if he thought the draft constitution would be approved.

"We'll have to see. Now it's in the hands of the Iraqis," he told CNN's "The Situation Room."

"The draft constitution, which a few days ago could have been characterized as a Shia-Kurdish document, now has got a substantial amount of Sunni support."

In the mixed Shiite-Sunni area of Baquba about one-third of the local population had visited the polling stations by midday.


Let's hope the Iraqi Ambassador's comments are true -

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 9):
I don't think there's any reason to believe that, and General Casey said exactly that to the Congress two weeks ago.

I don't believe so either. I continue to maintain however that the majority of the insurgency are not Iraqi's - hence my continued call to seal Iraq's borders. At least give them a chance!

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 9):
Two weeks ago the White House claimed there were now 80 line battalions in the Iraqi security force. That is roughly the equivalent of 8 US Army divisions. If the Iraqi forces can’t secure the country with 80 line battalions, we are still in a very bad spot. Either the White House is telling fish stories again, or these Iraqi forces are nowhere near being effective.

Agreed. However, Eighty Line Battalions that are fresh and not experienced IMO. Trained of course by the best military force in the world, but as I've always maintained, there is no better teacher than experience. We'll see. As for the White House and Fish Stories, my friend . . . what's that old saying about statistics and damn lies??? I don't think the Iraqi forces are effective . . . they will get there, but not overnight. Eighty battalions be damned if they aren't effective.
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11Bravo
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:56 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
I continue to maintain however that the majority of the insurgency are not Iraqi's

Actually, it's pretty clear that's not the case. General Casey said it was less than 10% in his testimony before congress at the beginning of the month. Foreign Jihadists commit a disproportionate amount of damage because they are more likely to employ suicide bombing tactics. That gives them a high profile, but they are by no means "the majority".

Here's a link to a fairly good explanation of who's who in the Iraqi insurgency:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_insurgency.htm

Excerpt:
Foreign fighters are a small component of the insurgency and comprise a very small percentage of all detainees. Syrian, Saudi, Egyptian, Jordanian and Iranian nationals make up the majority of foreign fighters.
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:11 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
It's just too early to tell. But it is encouraging.

Just a few days ago you were hoping for a Bush "failure" and thus a failure in policy that allowed these elections to even occur. So, you see how silly your remarks were earlier and how they can be perceived?

Honestly, I don't think you even understand what YOU are saying.

*Ignored* and done. LOL
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Falcon84
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:14 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 13):
Just a few days ago you were hoping for a Bush "failure" and thus a failure in policy that allowed these elections to even occur. So, you see how silly your remarks were earlier and how they can be perceived?

God, but you're so freaking slow.

I don't see this as a success for Bush, dude. I see it as a possible success for Iraqi's, making the best out of the mess Bush created for them.

I am hoping for a Bush failure in his policies as president, as I've said a million times, I think that would be the best thing for the United States.

You may give your hero the credit for this election, CH, but I don't. I give it to the Iraqi people, who are making the best of a bad situation. I still think they end up with an Islamic goverment, but if that's their choice, then that's their choice.

You just can't seem to grasp that concept, can you?
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11Bravo
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:20 pm

...and we were having such a nice civil discussion there for a while....sigh.
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:20 pm

The concept I can grasp is that they HAD elections today. And that was in part made possible by the current administration that you despise. It's a great day for the Iraqi people and their gains are all theirs. They will have many more thanks to those who make difficult and unpopular decisions.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 12):
Actually, it's pretty clear that's not the case. General Casey said it was less than 10% in his testimony before congress at the beginning of the month. Foreign Jihadists commit a disproportionate amount of damage because they are more likely to employ suicide bombing tactics. That gives them a high profile, but they are by no means "the majority".

OK, point made . .. let me rephrase. . . the folks killing our troops appear for the most part to be foreign insurgents . . . here's a link from the local Anchorage Daily Gag . . .
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7090168p-6995844c.html

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 13):
t a few days ago you were hoping for a Bush "failure" and thus a failure in policy that allowed these elections to even occur. So, you see how silly your remarks were earlier and how they can be perceived?

CH, you want to fuck up a thread, start your own. . . . your drivel is not welcome here . . . or anywhere else I post. Your blind following of the Republican Party and PotUS gives you little to no credibility anywhere - and makes you look like an ass. I've refrained in the past from speaking directly at you because I know you believe in what you think, but you need to get a grip on reality. Want to speak drivel go elsewhere. Want a decent conversation, please stick around.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):

Falcon my friend . . . STFU.  biggrin  Sometimes, SOMETIMES, silence is golden. He's not worth the verbiage . . . .
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Falcon84
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:31 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 16):
The concept I can grasp is that they HAD elections today. And that was in part made possible by the current administration that you despise.

The means don't justify the end, CH. We went to war under false pretenses-more than one, and they were part of the Lie of The Month for about a year-so as far as I'm concerned, the Iraqi people have turned a war that they didn't ask for, and didn't want, into a positive, DESPITE the fuck-ups of this administration.

And yes, I despise this administration. I find nothing redeeming about it.

Again, I see this as a victory for the Iraqi people, not for George W. Bush.


Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 16):
It's a great day for the Iraqi people and their gains are all theirs.

Bull. You're out here trying to make me agree the gain is all George W. Bush's. It's not.

In the end, the gain will be an Islamic government. You think THAT is what your hero wanted? I doubt it.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 16):
They will have many more thanks to those who make difficult and unpopular decisions.

Translation: Iraq, you fucking owe us for here to eternity, just like Europe does.
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Falcon84
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Sometimes, SOMETIMES, silence is golden.

I thought silence was a dish best served cold, ANC.

Oh, my bad...wrong Klingon Proverb.  Big grin
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:09 pm

ANCFlyer, my post was indeed an intrusion on a good topic. You can describe it as overflow from another post(s). So I offer an apology. Mea culpa.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Your blind following of the Republican Party and PotUS gives you little to no credibility anywhere

Blind following? No Sir. I would not agree with that statement. I have been critical in the past and will continue when warranted.

Now...back to the topic and your questions. The Iraqi people have their appetite whetted for this thing we call free and open elections. Who wouldn't once they experience it? I am not surprised that the turnout is as high as it is.

Nice to vote...freely.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Falcon84
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 20):
. I would not agree with that statement.

Doesn't mean it isn't true, CH-and that from someone who is solidly conservative, and someone you can't easily call a traitor, as you did me. So I'm not surprised you don't agree, but he's right on the money.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 20):
Nice to vote...freely.

When an occupying army isn't there, with assult weapons in hand, then I'll share that sentiment. It isn't a free vote, imho, when you have an invading army in your presence.
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:25 pm

No one held those voters at gunpoint to vote Falcon. As soon as we are out of Iraq and the Iraqis can handle it on their own is something I want to see. But not a moment too soon. This vote is headed in the right direction. That I know you will agree.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:37 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 20):
So I offer an apology. Mea culpa.

No sweat. I respect someone that believes in their convictions. What I respect more is a person that has an open mind and can continue to maintain the same convictions.

If you open your mind you'll find A-Net a valuable tool . . . there are of course exceptions . . .

CAUTION: FOR SATX: ARROGANT EXAMPLE ABOUT TO BE POSTEDl:

Beware of the posts from certain unnammed members about 757s, cornfields, and the like, lest they sour your senses.

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zeekiel
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:07 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Trained of course by the best military force in the world, but as I've always maintained, there is no better teacher than experience.

Of course. That's why it's always a preference to have a battle hardened unit to deal with the issues rather than green troops who might be skilled and well trained but have no test or benchmark in the mix.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 22):
This vote is headed in the right direction.

The vote. Yes

What the vote stands for? Well we just have to wait and see what the factional elements have to say after the vote. There is going to be a plethora of arguments to wade through in order to get to the final result of complete harmony.

The Kurdish idea of federalization in three states seemed like a good idea to me at the beginning but you have the problem of the Sunni element missing out on the mineral chocolate of oil. And also issues with Turkey dealing with Kurdish independence and how it would influence matter in their neck of the woods.

Cheers

Zeekiel
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AeroWesty
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting Zeekiel (Reply 24):
The Kurdish idea of federalization in three states seemed like a good idea to me at the beginning but you have the problem of the Sunni element missing out on the mineral chocolate of oil.

While you were posting this, I happened to be reading up on this from the Kurdish perspective, courtesy of an article from the Daily Star newspaper of Lebanon, carried on the Kurdistan Regional Government's website. I'm still absorbing it all, but their position is mainly that in the end the Kurds stand to benefit the most, and that to be inclusive, the new Iraq will have to lose its "Arabness". A fairly radical viewpoint coming out of the Near East.

Iraqi republic will - explicitly - not be Arab

The Kurds are set to become the greatest beneficiary of whatever new order emerges from the current Western intervention in the region's affairs. This hasn't reached the scale of the earlier one, being mainly confined, in its radical form at least, to Iraq, but, in its expanding - and unplanned - ramifications, it could well be on the way. After all, its chief architects, the Bush Administration's pro-Israeli, neo-conservative hawks, with their grandiose ideas of "creative chaos" and "regime change" everywhere, always saw Iraq, conceptually, as the springboard of an enterprise that, to succeed, had to be region-wide or not at all. In this respect if no other, they are in unison with the inhabitants of the Middle East themselves, for whom it is virtually axiomatic that what happens in Iraq profoundly affects everyone else.

[...]

In this constitution, Iraqi Kurds don't get the independent state which, according to a recent referendum, 98 percent of them want, but they do get gains - vast legislative powers, control of their own militia, and authority over new discoveries of oil - which effectively consecrate the quasi-independence they enjoyed since Western "humanitarian" intervention on their behalf in the 1991 Gulf war and which they themselves regard as a way station towards the real thing. The Iraqi republic is to be "independent, sovereign, federal, democratic and parliamentary;" but one thing, "Arab," it explicitly and deliberately no longer is. For that, its Kurdish president, Jalal Talabani, explained, would be to deny the right of its Kurdish citizens to look to membership of a greater Kurdish nation, just as its Arab citizens look to the greater Arab one.
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Mir
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:19 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
He said he did not really know what was in the constitution, but the fact that his opinion had been sought was enough for him to back it.

This raises a red flag for me. It's great that they can vote, and vote without being killed (this is certainly progress, though they still haven't managed to have a vote without shutting down the country), but when people vote without knowing what they're voting on, especially regarding something as big as a constitution, I only see it as creating problems down the line when people realize that what they thought they were voting for isn't what they actually voted for. I have no way of proving it, but I suspect that a large number of people went to the polls without knowing what they were really voting for, and that's not conductive to a healthy democracy.

-Mir
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
but when people vote without knowing what they're voting on, especially regarding something as big as a constitution,

Why should this  redflag  you. It happens all the time in this country . . . people vote the party line . . . . often times, they don't care why or who, just vote demo or repub . . . .

So same same . . .
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Falcon84
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:24 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 22):
No one held those voters at gunpoint to vote Falcon.

I beg to differ, CH. The very fact an invading army is in ther midst, in my mind, no matter where that army is from, means they're voting at gunpoint, more or less. You may not like that reality, but that is the truth.

The REAL test of if this will work won't happen until we're gone, as far as I'm concerned.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 22):
As soon as we are out of Iraq and the Iraqis can handle it on their own is something I want to see.

Gee, we agree on something. How amazing. Amazing, you can agree with a traitor? Better rethink what you said about me, dude.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 22):
This vote is headed in the right direction. That I know you will agree.

Again, I'm not ready to go quite that far, because, again, the influence of an occupying force can be a mitigating factor. It's a good sign, but I'm still in a wait-and-see mode.
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TPASXM787
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
It happens all the time in this country . . . people vote the party line . . . . often times, they don't care why or who, just vote demo or repub . . .

Exactly. I have friends that just vote down the line...they don't even know anything about policy/etc and I think this is the majority of people in the country.

I think that Iraqui man was voting for hope. More than anything, it gives him hope for a better future that hopefully will come true.
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TedTAce
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Insurgency waning?

NO

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Iraqi people beginning to believe in their Democracy?

I Hope

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 4):
If only we could get people in this country as excited about voting.

If we could only make it so people didn't have to wait over 8 hours to vote

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 5):

If only we could get people in this country to understand that the right to vote means nothing more than that. Try to understand. The system is corrupt. No matter who you vote for, it does not really matter. It really is that simple. Sorry, but in some X number of years, when a liberal is in the Whitehouse, I will still feel this way.

It really sucks, and the politicians are laughing all the way to the bank with our taxes and their pensions - all for accomplishing next to nothing. This is the greatest country in the world. How come our politicians have no great ideas???????

 redflag  write in.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 9):
If it doesn’t pass, I think our Iraq policy is in even more trouble than it is now.

Were's fucked.. It's time to figure out how to divide Iraq at this point.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 9):

I don't think there's any reason to believe that, and General Casey said exactly that to the Congress two weeks ago.

 checkmark 
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AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
I have no way of proving it, but I suspect that a large number of people went to the polls without knowing what they were really voting for, and that's not conductive to a healthy democracy.

I hope you read the entire article at the IHT before you posted, if you didn't, that's okay, but it would have helped to have put things into perspective. I suspect you didn't, otherwise you would have read the misgivings those who didn't vote in January now have, and are now showing up at the polls in October. Democracy certainly is a learn by experience model.

When I made that post last night, there were a couple of things going on in my mind. First, I was sitting in the comfort of my den to the glow of my computer monitor, able within a few clicks to read the document millions were voting upon yesterday, that they themselves may not have been able to read.

I then had to decide if that was a problem for me. It wasn't. Most people in the world vote without knowing anything other than what the loudest voice on the subject tells them something they can believe about it. That's just the way things work, and I'm not going to be able to change that.

In the end we all have to trust someone. In reading the article, I have to trust that the International Herald Tribune picked someone to quote who was representative of the man in the street, and didn't search high and low to find one person hiding in a cave somewhere to cast an opinion that would look nice for their article.

The man they quoted said he was voting for the constitution because people from all sides sat down at a table and worked things out on his behalf, then presented a document for an up or down vote to him. I've never lived in a society ravaged by both oppression and war, so I can't make a judgment call for whether he did the right thing or not, but again, people have to trust in something. Do what I know of what the insurgents want somewhat echo what the man who was quoted said? Yes. I don't honestly understand what they stand for either--other than anarchy.

There are times as a voter myself, even when I've fully understood the issues, I don't like the choices before me, but I do my best to choose the right thing, and if it doesn't work out, choose better the next time. Far be it from me to take the chance for the same learning curve away from anyone else.
International Homo of Mystery
 
whitehatter
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
A larger than expected voter turn out, few insurgent attacks disrupt the process.
What say you . . .
Successful voting process?
Progress on the Iraqi Constitution?
Insurgency waning?

Iraqi people beginning to believe in their Democracy?

Can't we put this thread on ice for a week? It really does need some qualification before anyone can answer. It is just not possible to make a serious judgment on turnout alone.

For instance there could have been a major 'no' vote or underground ballot spoiling campaign. It needs to be a clear result with no ambiguity on conduct before it can be set in stone and used as a weapon against the insurgents.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 32):
Can't we put this thread on ice for a week?

I actually support this thread being here, so we can talk about the issues that are being voted on and the dynamics of the populace who voted, then when the vote results come out, we're a bit more educated on it. I'm ignoring the "we shouldn't have been there in the first place," "Bush is the evile-incarnate", "did you hear Monica gave Bill head?" diversionary tactics that crop up in any thread like this, because they aren't germaine to the subject.
International Homo of Mystery
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:36 am

Yeah, yeah, Iraq has "turned the corner"...again.

How many more of these hurried "democracy" exercises will be staged, with Bushco immediately hailing it a "victory", only to return the the same instability a week later.

The insurgents don't care about a constitution or elections or bill-of-rights or any other western ideas of democracy. They will continue to attack as long as we are there.

Call it a victory and bring the troops home.
 
L-188
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 34):
The insurgents don't care about a constitution or elections or bill-of-rights or any other western ideas of democracy. They will continue to attack as long as we are there.

Negative.

They will condinue until we kill them all.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
Negative.

They will condinue until we kill them all.

One of the great fallacies of this conflict exposed yet again.

There is no finite number of insurgents that need to be rooted out and eliminated, and then that will be that. In Iraq we've constructed for ourselves an insurgent factory, with new jihadists in training and ready to fill the shoes of their fallen comrades.

Or are you saying that we will be there forever?
 
ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 34):
They will continue to attack as long as we are there.

Actually, I think the attacks will continue even after we're gone. Unless the Iraqi police take charge and fight back.

No we won't be there forever, but I don't see us leaving in great numbers for at least 18-24 more months, and then we'll maintain a presence there for at least a decade. That's reality . . . not necessarily what I'd prefer, but thinking we'll leave entirely is naive.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
No we won't be there forever, but I don't see us leaving in great numbers for at least 18-24 more months, and then we'll maintain a presence there for at least a decade. That's reality . . . not necessarily what I'd prefer, but thinking we'll leave entirely is naive.

To be naive would have been to believe Rumsfeld and the PNAC gang that assured the country we'd be there for six months at most.
 
ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 38):
To be naive would have been to believe Rumsfeld and the PNAC gang that assured the country we'd be there for six months at most.

Quite agree, anything coming out of Dumsfeld's cesspool is going to be  redflag  as soon as he says it.

Remember, "Fight it on the Cheap".
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
11Bravo
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 36):
There is no finite number of insurgents that need to be rooted out and eliminated, and then that will be that. In Iraq we've constructed for ourselves an insurgent factory, with new jihadists in training and ready to fill the shoes of their fallen comrades.

That is absolutely spot-on. Anyone who still thinks Iraq is a military problem with a military solution needs to put down the Budweiser, turn off the NASCAR race on TV, and start thinking about this problem outside the school of Rambo Conflict Management. The solution set in Iraq is about politics and economics, not body count.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
dl021
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:28 am

Without reading past post 4 or 5 I'll just weigh in.

Iraqis have been exercising their rights and doing so in the face of dangers you or I would find daunting to say the least.

Those of you who damn this with faint praise in order to maintain your position that it's a doomed process....well, whatever.

Those of you who equate Iraqi domestic democratic processes with the policies of the US and therefore crap all over them.....you ain't helping.


To any Iraqis that read this.....congratulations. I'll keep supporting you. The direction your country takes is now truly in the hands of the people who are willing to brave the dangers involved and diminish the power of the terrorists who will lose if you don't quit and bow down.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:13 am

RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
To any Iraqis that read this.....congratulations. I'll keep supporting you. The direction your country takes is now truly in the hands of the people who are willing to brave the dangers involved and diminish the power of the terrorists who will lose if you don't quit and bow down.

Rah rah! Yea democracy!   

Take off the blinders for a second and think about what we are really witnessing: a state bordering on civil war, reverting to its historical chaos - a three-way fight where US forces are trapped in the middle. This will continue until someone on our side, obviously not this president, has the gumption to say "enough" and get us the hell out of there.

It needs to be said that this escapade has done nothing to reduce terrorism originating in the middle-east. OK, Iraq has a constitution, now it's time for the US to return our troops, turn inward and concentrate on the enormous problems this country faces, such as: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9709957/site/newsweek

[Edited 2005-10-16 23:39:43]

[Edited 2005-10-16 23:40:25]
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
This will continue until someone on our side, obviously not this president, has the gumption to say "enough" and get us the hell out of there.

Thank you General Armchair.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
It needs to be said that this escapade has done nothing to reduce terrorism originating in the middle-east.

A lot of people wiser than either of us will disagree. It is hard to say just how much terrorism this war has actually stopped. I guess to make you happy we would have to let something get blown up and then say "hey, we knew that was coming."
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:13 am

RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 43):
A lot of people wiser than either of us will disagree. It is hard to say just how much terrorism this war has actually stopped. I

From my armchair I can tell you - and it's just my opinion, I could be wrong - this war in Iraq has exacerbated the cause of Islamic Jihad. It has done nothing to staunch the recruitment efforts of Al Qaeda, and has more likely increased their appeal to young disaffected Arabs by an exponential amount.

The great theories of the PNAC bunch, that establishing democracy in Iraq would create a domino effect throughout the region is just that - a theory. This fucking experiment has already burdened this nation with a huge cost in terms of lives and tresure. It will continue to cost us far into the future.

Invading sovereign countries on bogus grounds doesn't tend to create allies.

[Edited 2005-10-17 00:36:42]
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
Rah rah! Yea democracy!

You have issues with people growing into democracy?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
Take off the blinders for a second and think about what we are really witnessing: a state bordering on civil war

Isn't that where we were during the worst parts of the revolutionary war?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
a three-way fight where US forces are trapped in the middle

I wonder if France felt that way, or did they have good reasons for helping us other than helping us become a free republic based on democratic values?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
This will continue until someone on our side, obviously not this president, has the gumption to say "enough" and get us the hell out of there.

I'm glad that you have this opinion and are free to express it. I'm glad that we're helping the Iraqis in their journey that has made them free to express opinions and dissent, as that will show others that you can have differences in a democracy without needing to resort to violence and terrorism to do so.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
It needs to be said that this escapade has done nothing to reduce terrorism originating in the middle-east

So, where have all the acts of terrorism occured? Here? Or there? I wonder how sick of terrorism the people of that area are.....and will it eventually cause them to reject terrorists and terrorism as an accepted part of their lives, whether the active participation or passive acceptance that allows it to fester as it's easier to ignore it than to fight it if it's not gunning for you this week. The citizens of Iraq have got to be getting tired of it. I know that the citizens of Northern Ireland got sick of it.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 42):
now it's time for the US to return our troops, turn inward and concentrate on the enormous problems this country faces, such as: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9709957/...sweek

And just what is the US Army going to do about Delphi beating the clock to declare bankruptcy prior to the law change? Are they going to take over corporations?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
DrDeke
Posts: 805
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 44):
The great theories of the PNAC bunch, that establishing democracy in Iraq would create a domino effect throughout the region is just that - a theory. This fucking experiment has already burdened this nation with a huge cost in terms of lives and tresure. It will continue to cost us far into the future.

Yep. And isn't it funny how the same guys who approve of sending folks to kill and die in Iraq on the basis of a made-up theory with no evidence to support it are largely the same people who want to ban, restrict, or otherwise interfere with the teaching of evolution (a scientific theory with a large, if not totally conclusive body of evidence supporting it) in science classes???

 redflag  stirthepot 

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
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RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:39 am

I can see this thread has run its course now with the last two posts comparing the war in Iraq with two things wholly and completely unrelated and irrelevant; the American Revolution and evolution.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
dan-air
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:13 am

RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
You have issues with people growing into democracy?

I could care less. Them do it on their dime.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
Isn't that where we were during the worst parts of the revolutionary war?

Oh I get it - so Iraq falling into civil war is what was expected and planned for by the architects of this disaster. Because we had a civil war in this country a couple hundred years back, that means that having one is an expected part of every young democracy. Funny, I don't recall Cheney, Rumsfeld or Wolfie mentioning this on Meat the Press Whore or any of the other outlets of the liberal media that failed to question the rationale for war.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
I wonder if France felt that way, or did they have good reasons for helping us other than helping us become a free republic based on democratic values?

Uh, check your history books. I think France *may* have had some issues with England over time. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember a fellow named Napoleon...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
So, where have all the acts of terrorism occured? Here? Or there? I wonder how sick of terrorism the people of that area are.....and will it eventually cause them to reject terrorists and terrorism as an accepted part of their lives, whether the active participation or passive acceptance that allows it to fester as it's easier to ignore it than to fight it if it's not gunning for you this week. The citizens of Iraq have got to be getting tired of it. I know that the citizens of Northern Ireland got sick of it.

Weren't you guys bragging a week or so ago that Bush had singlehandely foiled 10 terrorists plots in this country.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
I'm glad that we're helping the Iraqis in their journey that has made them free to express opinions and dissent, as that will show others that you can have differences in a democracy without needing to resort to violence and terrorism to do so.

yeah thats great. Too bad 2000 of our guys aren't around to see it. After all - that's why we went to Iraq in the first place was to enable Iraqis to "express opinions and dissent".  sarcastic 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
And just what is the US Army going to do about Delphi beating the clock to declare bankruptcy prior to the law change? Are they going to take over corporations?

Oh I don't know. Maybe the $6 Billion a month we are borrowing to spend in Iraq might be better spent on say, homeland security, health-care reform - y'know, insignificant stuff like that (one of the biggest problems cited in the article by US companies is health-care costs).
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Latest Iraqi Vote

Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 46):
Yep. And isn't it funny how the same guys who approve of sending folks to kill and die in Iraq on the basis of a made-up theory with no evidence to support it are largely the same people who want to ban, restrict, or otherwise interfere with the teaching of evolution (a scientific theory with a large, if not totally conclusive body of evidence supporting it) in science classes???

Do what? That's out from left field..... Hey! A pun! Good one....

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 47):
comparing the war in Iraq with two things wholly and completely unrelated and irrelevant; the American Revolution and evolution.

I'd say that evolution and the American Revolution can both be compared to the current events in Iraq. There is a natural progression happening there, albeit different than ours, but evolution of a species is certainly impacted, even directed by forces from without on a constant basis.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 48):
uoting DL021 (Reply 45):
You have issues with people growing into democracy?

I could care less. Them do it on their dime.

What about if it helps us by showing them that democracy is better than tyranny and terrorism? Thus reducing the exporting of terrorism to our shores?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 48):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
Isn't that where we were during the worst parts of the revolutionary war?

Oh I get it - so Iraq falling into civil war is what was expected and planned for by the architects of this disaster. Because we had a civil war in this country a couple hundred years back, that means that having one is an expected part of every young democracy.

Well, Lenin did say that to make an omelette you must crack a few eggs....
I'm saying that Iraq's insurgency and the regions terrorists are not completely dissimilar to the forces that desired the Americans continued subjugation to tyranny. They must be dealt with before we can be free of their threat.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 48):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
I wonder if France felt that way, or did they have good reasons for helping us other than helping us become a free republic based on democratic values?

Uh, check your history books. I think France *may* have had some issues with England over time. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember a fellow named Napoleon...

OK....well, in addition to not knowing that Napoleon was too young for the American revolutionary war....he was either still living in Corsica or in Toulon at the time in military school I believe, since he wasn't born until 1769, so you miss the irony but maybe can try to learn from this....if your history is bad here, why don't you try to see the points others make and learn from them?

But, thanks for not seeing the correlation in my point. France helped us in spite of the dangers the King and his advisors saw in the democracy if it made its way to their shores. They did so in hopes of keeping the British away from their possessions in the Caribbean and perhaps in hopes of regaining Canadian possessions lost to the British. The real point is that we have a definite reason for helping the Iraqis here. We help them transition to peaceful democracy and that'll spread.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 48):
Weren't you guys bragging a week or so ago that Bush had singlehandely foiled 10 terrorists plots in this country.

What? "You guys"? C'mon. Don't be weak like that. You're using distraction and misdirection to avoid the real point of the thread.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 48):

yeah thats great. Too bad 2000 of our guys aren't around to see it. After all - that's why we went to Iraq in the first place was to enable Iraqis to "express opinions and dissent".

I'm not happy that we lost people, a few of whom have been personal friends, but I believe the sacrifices to be worthwhile. So do the record number of re-enlisting soldiers.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 48):
Oh I don't know. Maybe the $6 Billion a month we are borrowing to spend in Iraq might be better spent on say, homeland security, health-care reform - y'know, insignificant stuff like that (one of the biggest problems cited in the article by US companies is health-care costs).

Once again, what are we going to throw money at? Health care reform is more about being better guardians of the money being spent...i.e. reducing fraud and waste, as well as instituting more preventative maintenance health programs, and the homeland security seems to be more in need of better managementg and development than more money, but hey. Let us know if you have a solution that money can fix.

[Edited 2005-10-17 19:36:41]
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