Falcon84
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How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:58 am

Not going to get into specifics of '06 and '08, but the Dems have a chance to take the Senate in '06, cut their deficit in the House in '06, and have a better-than-even chance to win the Presidency in '08, especially if our current sad state continues, and especially if these oft-rumored indictments against many of the Presidents' men come down.

Here's a few simple thing they can and should do, to cut into the GOP stranglehold on Washington:

1. Disavow the Hollywood establishment. Just stay clear of those clowns, and their ultra-left views. Tell them flat-out: you will not be given a role in the Democratic party. Your help as individuals is welcome, like it would be from any American, but, as an industry, we are divorcing ourselves from you. Those people, be they on the left or right, live in a fantasy existence, and should be ignored at all costs.

2. Commit to seeing Iraq through till Iraq can support itself. That isn't a popular view among many on the far left ot liberalism, but it is the reality, and it should be a centerpiece of the Democratic strategy.

3. Commit to being a party that will focus on fiscal responsibiilty in Washington. After 8 years (or 6 in '06), of the "Tax Cut and Spend" conservatives, who have doled out more pork than there are pigs in the world, and after all these years of a president who never met a spending bill he didn't like or even threaten to veto, it's time to rein in this out-of-control spending.

4. Commit to rebuilding our long-standing ties and friendships in Europe and among other traditional allies. That doesn't mean they control our policies, but they will be consulted, not steamrolled, on issues that affect them as well as us.

5. Commit to a REAL policy of energy independence, not one, Like Mr. Bush has put forth, that is heavy on just simply building more oil refineries, drilling for more oil, and depending on "nuculear" energy, but on one that truly looks for renewable sources of energy that will make us free from oil, and the politics and conflicts that surround it. Make it our "moonshot" issue of the next decade.

I'm sure others can come up with some ideas as well. I put this out after my dad, my brother and I were discussing politics the other day.
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Aloha717200
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:15 am

I don't think even that will honestly win the presidency for Dems in 08.

Honestly, the Republicans have just become too damn good at propaganda. No matter what the Dems try, I truly believe the republicans will win again in 2008.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:15 am

Was this in some sort of dream of yours last night?

Keep dreaming.

Or is it some sort of nightmare????  Wow!
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Logan22L
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 2):
Was this in some sort of dream of yours last night?

Keep dreaming.

Or is it some sort of nightmare????

What terribly insightful political commentary. You do realize that politics is a cyclical game, do you not?
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Disavow the Hollywood establishment

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Commit to seeing Iraq through till Iraq can support itself.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Commit to being a party that will focus on fiscal responsibiilty in Washington

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
. Commit to rebuilding our long-standing ties and friendships in Europe

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. Commit to a REAL policy of energy independence,

 checkmark 

6. Commit to real reform of the major entitlement systems (medicare, medicaid, social security) which use up an ever larger proportion of total government spending and are crowding out discretionary spending (or increasing deficits).

7. Commit to a real tax reform which would eliminate many special interest deductions

8. Commit to real immigration reform (it is a joke that there are allegedly currently more illegal than legal immigrants in the US)
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:22 am

Besides, the American public isn't interested in "rebuilding ties" and all that other "mushy spineless stuff", they wanna hear "Let's Get 'Em, we're the best, if you aint with us you're against us, kill terrorists, destroy evildoers, smoke 'em out!!!"

The republicans know this...and that's what they'll be running on in 08, the anti-terrorist, "we're invincible with a republican president" mentality, the scare-mongering and everything else that worked so damn well for them in 2004. Bet on it, the Rs will run on a National Security platform that will practically hand the white house to them on a silver platter for the next 8 years.


A slight majority of americans aren't interested in soft politics, they are interested in self-preservation, war, and destroying anyone that isn't just like us. Unfortunately, that slight majority, is all it takes to win the presidency.

And if Hillary wins the nomination in 08, us Dems might as well forfeit altogether. Nothing would bring out non-voting republicans to the polling stations than the thought of another president with the last name of Clinton. Hillary would be a godsend to the republicans.
 
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:23 am

Great ideas. In short what you're advocating is that they stop being democrats. Welcome to the Republican Party!
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 3):
You do realize that politics is a cyclical game, do you not?

Indeed I do. And it's not time for the Democrats to do anything except fix the mess in their own party.

Dream on fellas.  bigthumbsup 
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 7):
Dream on fellas

I wish I could argue with you, being a democrat myself, and I wish I could disagree. But I have to admit, your party is at the top of their game, I don't think we can win for a long time yet, not without a miracle.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 2):
Was this in some sort of dream of yours last night?

Keep dreaming.

Can you take a break from the Falcon Bash for a thread? Please?

Falcon, good ideas, for the most part.

I agree completely with #1. I can't abide by the whoring out of the Hollyweed crowd, on either side. . . . but IMHO, it's more prevelent on the democratic side.

I agree on the energy independence . . . especially in regards to finding alternative forms of energy. Where you mention building more refineries, I agree - but I would make part of the permit process the requirement that any new refinery/facility built include a facility therein that is focused on finding newer, cleaner, forms of energy. One reason - beyond the $$$ - the oil companies are reluctant to do so is that they know they will have to change a world wide paradigm - the use of petroleum products to move everything. . . planes, trucks, cars, trains, ships. . . that won't happen in a year or in ten years, but we had better start some serious and concentrated efforts along those lines . . . better start it now. Soon, no one will be able to afford diesel, gasoline, JP4, etc. And the supply will continue to run shot.

Lastly, #2. Like it or not. Agree or otherwise. This is THE only option. See Iraq through to the end. Period. Change some of the direction it's moving perhaps . . . begin to focus on honest, hard training for the Iraqi military and police. Tell the Iraqi government (don't ask) that in XX amount of time, the US will get out of the police business in Iraq - so you better listen and listen hard - take this training seriously . . . . soon, you'll be covering your own street corner. A similar tack with the Iraqi military, but not one so stringent. Afterall, we put them into this scenario. That said: IMO (again) currently there is NO incentive for them to take responsibility for themselves . . . the US is there, and will handle whatever situation arises, so why should the Iraqi police and military take it seriously. . .

Good Post Falcon.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 8):
But I have to admit, your party is at the top of their game, I don't think we can win for a long time yet, not without a miracle.

And a miracle could happen. The miracle is to move away from the left leaning liberals like Ted Kennedy and Barbara Boxer and become more mainstream and offer the American public ideas that can be built upon and not ideas that ultimately destroy the backbone and moral fiber of this country.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Can you take a break from the Falcon Bash for a thread? Please?

No! It was too good to pass up!

LOL

Good luck in 2008, you sure as hell are going to need it.

[Edited 2005-10-23 18:46:07]
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Logan22L
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
See Iraq through to the end. Period

I agree, but it was dirty pool used by Bush43. He started the war, and then used the notion that we can't possibly change horses in midstream as one of his major election arguments in 2004.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:50 am

Good post, Falcon...

The best thing the Dems can do is move to the center, and develop the image of the moderate to conservative members in the party so that they can be in a position to run for high office. The American people are fed up with northeastern liberals and SF Bay area/Hollyweird liberals and their extreme agendas. A more moderate/cons. Dem. will have a lot of appeal vs. the likes of Santorum, Brownback, et. al.

Depending on who actually runs in '08, I just may not even cast a vote for any of the Presidential candidates...vote for the state offices and stop there.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Falcon84
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
Besides, the American public isn't interested in "rebuilding ties" and all that other "mushy spineless stuff", they wanna hear "Let's Get 'Em, we're the best, if you aint with us you're against us, kill terrorists, destroy evildoers, smoke 'em out!!!"

Actually, with the reality of what Iraq has become, a majority don't think like that anymore, my friend. I can't tell if you're supporting that line of thinking, or being dismissive of it, but all it's gotten us is a black eye in Iraq, loss of prestige in the world, and a distrust of our good name around the globe. That may satisfy those who want to act like they have big balls, but all it will do is get more Americans killed.

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
Great ideas. In short what you're advocating is that they stop being democrats. Welcome to the Republican Party!

Right, Pope. Show me where the GOP has been fiscally responsible this last 6 years, dude? Oh, sorry, that ruins the image.

And when did the GOP want to be seen as a good world citizen, and as one our allies and freinds can trust? I don't see that.

And when has the Oilmen, POTUS, and VPOTUS, ever said such things about energy independence. Their ideas are "more oil", and that's as far as it goes.

No, I'm not advocating they be Republicans. Everything I've put in there, save #1, is the anthesis of what the GOP is today, Pope.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 10):
Good luck in 2008, you sure as hell are going to need it.

If these indictments come down this week, and if Iraq keeps being a problem, your party will need it, dude. But, keep the blinders on.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
Besides, the American public isn't interested in "rebuilding ties" and all that other "mushy spineless stuff", they wanna hear "Let's Get 'Em, we're the best, if you aint with us you're against us, kill terrorists, destroy evildoers, smoke 'em out!!!"

I'm part of the American public and I don't want to hear any of that crappy propaganda...

The Republicans will eventually destroy themselves, the Democrats will come back, and it will repeat...it's just the way things go. Damn party lines...
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 12):
Depending on who actually runs in '08, I just may not even cast a vote for any of the Presidential candidates...vote for the state offices and stop there.

You really should cast a vote.


Anyway, for 2008 I see the greatest potential of Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, and Al Gore going after the nomination. If that's the case, I think honestly the best chance still lies with John Kerry. Hillary is too polarizing, Gore is still an ongoing joke, Kerry is damaged, but not destroyed, and might be able to rebuild his image, and his chances.

It's too bad Obama doesn't have enough experience, he's a motivational speaker in the league of Bill Clinton and could really move the masses. But we won't see him as a presidential candidate for a long time, if ever.

We need someone that can move people in a positive way. Republicans move people effectively by reminding them of the threats against us and playing on their perceived strengths against those threats. We dems need to figure out our strengths and then not only play on them but sell them as effectively as the repubs...no easy task. No offense to republicans on the forum, but from what I've seen, R's are more willing to slice throats to get what they want in the polical world...Dems aren't as agressive, we back down, and that's why we lose.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Actually, with the reality of what Iraq has become, a majority don't think like that anymore, my friend. I can't tell if you're supporting that line of thinking, or being dismissive of it, but all it's gotten us is a black eye in Iraq, loss of prestige in the world, and a distrust of our good name around the globe. That may satisfy those who want to act like they have big balls, but all it will do is get more Americans killed.

That's what we thought at the end of 2004, was that the disaster that Iraq was becoming would be enough to help give credibility to the Dems enough for us to take back the country. Clearly it wasnt enough, and clearly people DO still think that way. It's just the sad truth.

And i don't support that line of thinking, I quite simply feel defeated by it. I had high hopes for winning last year's election and saw them dashed. Basically, I've had a wake up call...the Republicans are just too damn good at what they do, they can sell propaganda to the american public so easily it's downright scary, the dems from what i see are nowhere near as effective as selling their platform, and this saddens me.

I want a democratic win in 2008 just as badly as you do, Alpha1, I just have accepted that we are not on our game and not likely to win this one either...not when so many people still stand behind the line of thinking that swept bush into the white house for a second time. People have to wake up, do you really think that will happen?

These indictments will mean nothing, they won't stick to the president. The only thing that will stick to bush at this point is if he has an affair. then the public will crucify him. but a little thing like rushing us into war on bad intelligence? Meh, small potatoes, just as long as W isn't gettin a BJ!

Our priorities are so backwards in this country its embarrassing. No wonder why the world laughs at us.
 
csavel
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4):
Commit to real reform of the major entitlement systems (medicare, medicaid, social security) which use up an ever larger proportion of total government spending and are crowding out discretionary spending (or increasing deficits).

HAJFlyer, I do hope you include as well corporate welfare, including farm subsidies, sweetheart no-bid contracts, the sluice of money going to defense contractors and all that as well. That is beginning to eat up an even greater increase in our national debt, as well as corrupting and perverting capitalism.

Farmers, defense contractors, and other corporate welfare kingpins have to stop sucking at the government tit as much as the more traditional welfare spongers. It is time to abolish the entire agriculture dept and bring ag subsidies to farmers and rancher to, um zero dollars. If they can't compete, well let them do something else. That's capitalism.

In addition, I believe that the Dems should *not* be socially conservative, but socially libertarian, and point out the hypocricy of the morality socialists' party of so-called less government passing laws to restrict whom you can marry, when you can die, what you can listen to, watch, or jerk off to - I can go on and on.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
L-188
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:11 am

Well lets look at this list.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Disavow the Hollywood establishment. Just stay clear of those clowns, and their ultra-left views. Tell them flat-out: you will not be given a role in the Democratic party. Your help as individuals is welcome, like it would be from any American, but, as an industry, we are divorcing ourselves from you. Those people, be they on the left or right, live in a fantasy existence, and should be ignored at all costs.

That isn't the question, the question is will Hollywood disavow the democrats. Somehow if Babs, shows up and tells Howie Dean that she wants to do a fundraiser, I don't think he is going to say no.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Commit to seeing Iraq through till Iraq can support itself. That isn't a popular view among many on the far left ot liberalism, but it is the reality, and it should be a centerpiece of the Democratic strategy.

This is the exact policy that G.W. is following now. Fight for the Iraqi people until they can fight for themselves.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Commit to being a party that will focus on fiscal responsibiilty in Washington. After 8 years (or 6 in '06), of the "Tax Cut and Spend" conservatives, who have doled out more pork than there are pigs in the world, and after all these years of a president who never met a spending bill he didn't like or even threaten to veto, it's time to rein in this out-of-control spending.

This is one area I have been disapointed with GW. However this comment does read right out of Reagans playbook.

And actually he has threatened to veto this years defense bill... so there is one.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
4. Commit to rebuilding our long-standing ties and friendships in Europe and among other traditional allies. That doesn't mean they control our policies, but they will be consulted, not steamrolled, on issues that affect them as well as us.

Unfortunately the last administration didn't realize that comment didn't mean let other countries and international groups control our policies. That is one reason why Gore lost that election. And the right can make yardage in an election with this shift.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. Commit to a REAL policy of energy independence, not one, Like Mr. Bush has put forth, that is heavy on just simply building more oil refineries, drilling for more oil, and depending on "nuculear" energy, but on one that truly looks for renewable sources of energy that will make us free from oil, and the politics and conflicts that surround it. Make it our "moonshot" issue of the next decade.

Sorry, but who signed the current energy bill into law? Bush. You should see all of the wing/solar projects that are on the drawing board. BTW anybody else consider it hilarious that no less then the Kennedy's is fighting a wind geration project on Martha's Vinyard because it would "destroy" his views?

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
Great ideas. In short what you're advocating is that they stop being democrats. Welcome to the Republican Party!

Well look at the bright side, maybe the democrats are tring to get themselves back to the party of Trumman. Instead of the one of the liberal left that all those pot smoking hippies in the 1960's made it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Junketeer
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:26 am

I don't like to intrude on private grief (being neither American nor a Democrat) and I suppose that most of your suggestions are pretty sensible, EXCEPT #5:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. Commit to a REAL policy of energy independence, not one, Like Mr. Bush has put forth, that is heavy on just simply building more oil refineries, drilling for more oil, and depending on "nuculear" energy, but on one that truly looks for renewable sources of energy that will make us free from oil, and the politics and conflicts that surround it. Make it our "moonshot" issue of the next decade.

I like the irony of that proposal appearing on, um, AIRLINERS.net. I trust the successful candidate with this platform will be first aboard the 787 that's fuelled by prune juice.  Wink
 
texan
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
their deficit in the House in '06

Believe it or not, Texas is actually going to help cut the Dems' House deficit by at least two and up to four. And this year's vote we actually have the ability to do defeat a conservative measure that has passed in many states during the last four years. Thought you might like to know  Smile

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
TPASXM787
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:03 am

I think the Dems need to move back towards the middle to win in 08. Clinton was a moderate, I think that the Dems have become too extreme liberal. I think that someone like Hillary is too liberal to take the win in 08. I don't think that people have forgotten how she was before her recent move towards the center (real or not). I think that with someone like Dean as the DNC leader, that is starting off the party too liberally.

All that being said, the Reps may do enough on their own to sufficiently bury themselves and the Dems might not have to do a damn thing.
This is the Last Stop.
 
jaysit
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Just stay clear of those clowns, and their ultra-left views.

What exactly ARE these supposed ultra-left views that Hollywood is criticized of having, and how are they any different from the views that a majority of Dems have?

Babs Streisand's views ultra left? The woman is probably to the right of many a Dem. Michael Moore? Obnoxious as he may be, most of his contentions propounded in that F9-11 film were proven by independent analyses to be correct. Meryl Streep who thinks that the Government should not censor free speech? Alec Baldwin who yammers stupidly on how he would leave the US if GWB won? The first 3 are hardly ultra-leftist; the last is just a moron.

The reality is that the GOP propagandist machine has done an excellent job in convincing you and everyone else that the Hollywood celebs who support Dems are a bunch of anti-American fiends out to destroy the world.

The Dems will only win if they stop being a party that stands for nothing, and if they have ideas that show that they stand for fiscal responsibility, freedom from government obstrusiveness, and if they present ideas in plain english, rather than in political speak.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Gilligan
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Disavow the Hollywood establishment. Just stay clear of those clowns, and their ultra-left views.

They'd probably like to but they can't for two reasons, money, and the money draw that these people are to the democratic faithful.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4):
6. Commit to real reform of the major entitlement systems (medicare, medicaid, social security) which use up an ever larger proportion of total government spending and are crowding out discretionary spending (or increasing deficits).

What? The democratic party is the party that gave us these boondoggles. They are also the party that has stymied any attempt to enact any kind of reform that would actually fix the problems over the years. They don't have a leg to stand on here.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4):
8. Commit to real immigration reform

From the party that gave us motor voter? Don't think so.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
I agree on the energy independence . . . especially in regards to finding alternative forms of energy.

And the rest of America will embrace these as well, as soon as there is a company that can provide a safe, reliable, and economically affordable form of alternative energy. Until then oil rules and we need to find some more in our own backyard.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Lastly, #2. Like it or not. Agree or otherwise. This is THE only option. See Iraq through to the end. Period. Change some of the direction it's moving perhaps . . . begin to focus on honest, hard training for the Iraqi military and police. Tell the Iraqi government (don't ask) that in XX amount of time, the US will get out of the police business in Iraq - so you better listen and listen hard - take this training seriously . . . . soon, you'll be covering your own street corner.

Well there's a contradiction in terms. We'll stick it out till the end as long as the end is in XX amount of time. I'll lay you 1000 to 1 odds that as soon as you say we'll leave in XX amount of time it will get as quiet as a tomb in Iraq. The day after we're gone I want you to give me 10,000 to one odds that all hell will break loose.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
4. Commit to rebuilding our long-standing ties and friendships in Europe and among other traditional allies. That doesn't mean they control our policies, but they will be consulted, not steamrolled, on issues that affect them as well as us.

I'll say again, who gives a flying flip what the French and Germans think? How much American blood was spilled in the past 100 years over those two countries? Who rebuilt them after not one but two world wars? If they don't like the way we conduct business, oh well. They would like nothing better than to see our country as one big agrarian state with no manufacturering or military capability. That is there dream.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 23):
I'll say again, who gives a flying flip what the French and Germans think?

So, Little Buddy, you're saying America should just do whatever the fuck it wants, and to hell with the rest of the world?

Gee, good one! If you didn't notice, Little Buddy, that's what has gotten us into this mess-that the world is somehow YankeeCentrist, that we shouldn't care what the rest of the world thinks, even if it might affect them.

The Ugly American personified? We don't run this planet, Little Buddy, and we should care what our longstanding friends and Allies do.

Your view is the reason why the U.S. is so hated, and no more safe than it was 4 years ago. My pity to you for such uncultured, ignorant nonsense.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 23):
And the rest of America will embrace these as well, as soon as there is a company that can provide a safe, reliable, and economically affordable form of alternative energy. Until then oil rules and we need to find some more in our own backyard.

Typical short-term thinking, Little Buddy. I'm looking longer term, and the sooner we make a serious committment to shed oil, the better we are as a nation. But you don't see that, so you don't have a clue, I guess.

Thanks for the right wing manure, though, Little Buddy.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
prosa
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:13 am

I'm not sure that committing to see Iraq through to the end is either necessary or advisable for the Democratic Party. While it's fun to make jokes about the stupidity of the American public, I disagree in one extent - most people, at least most likely voters, are smart enough to realize that there is no "end" in Iraq short of turning the whole place into a radioactive crater. A Democratic program calling for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, especially if couched as a George Aiken Solution,* just might work. All-out civil war in Iraq surely would follow, but it wouldn't be our war.

* = George Aiken was a long-time Senator from Vermont, who in the 1960's called for the United States to declare the Vietnam War over, say that we had won, and withdraw. Unfortunately, no one listened to him.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 23):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
I agree on the energy independence . . . especially in regards to finding alternative forms of energy.

And the rest of America will embrace these as well, as soon as there is a company that can provide a safe, reliable, and economically affordable form of alternative energy. Until then oil rules and we need to find some more in our own backyard.

Agreed . . . . UNTIL we are out of viable oil sources or until no one can afford to fuel up any longer.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 23):
Well there's a contradiction in terms.

No it's not. We need to let the Iraqi police do the job or policing the streets . . . we (the US Army) needs to be out of that business. We should be concentrating our efforts on a) training the Iraqi Army, b) closing the Iraqi borders to intruders and c) assisting the Iraqi Army in eliminating - with extreme prejudice - the insurgency. No standing on street corners in Baghdad directing traffic . . .

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 23):
I'll lay you 1000 to 1 odds that as soon as you say we'll leave in XX amount of time it will get as quiet as a tomb in Iraq. The day after we're gone I want you to give me 10,000 to one odds that all hell will break loose.

Wrong on the first coutn, I'll take the odds . . . double or nothing. The insurgency isn't just fighting against the US/Coalition - they are killing their own people, blowing up polling places (no US Soldiers voting there), blowing up mosques (not too many US soldiers in there either), so I don't don't buy that line. Political unrest - nothing to do with the US/Coalition IMO.

On count 2 you're probably fairly accurate. But your estimation is off. I don't they will increase by such a margin. In fact, if the Iraqi police would get their crap together, I think you'd see it fairly stable.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
So, Little Buddy, you're saying America should just do whatever the fuck it wants, and to hell with the rest of the world?


I continue to say what I have said all along. We should do what is in our best interest. If the French and Germans, as well as the Russians and Chinese agree, fine, if not, oh well. If you don't think the other countries won't do the same I will point you towards the Kyoto Treaty. I fail to understand why you insist on trying to please everyone even to our own detriment. I fail to understand why you think the rest of the world is just harmless and means us no ill will at all.


Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Gee, good one! If you didn't notice, Little Buddy, that's what has gotten us into this mess-that the world is somehow YankeeCentrist, that we shouldn't care what the rest of the world thinks, even if it might affect them.

Gee, perhaps you have failed to understand that most of the rest of the world resents us for what we have acheived and would like nothing better than to take us down a notch. How is that so unfathomable to you? Germany tried it twice in the last century. France, even though we have bailed them out twice and given them massive amount of aid has thumbed their nose at us as many times as they can. Perhaps that is why I say who cares what they think. All they have led us too in the past one hundred years is trouble.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Your view is the reason why the U.S. is so hated, and no more safe than it was 4 years ago. My pity to you for such uncultured, ignorant nonsense.

We've been hated in many parts of the world,if not by the government then by the people for years. Why? Because of our culture, our form of government, pick a reason but it's certainly not because of my view. My view is a response to the way we are treated. Check out the UN sometime. Check out the resolutions that are put forward by the third world. Explain how the UN human rights commision has as its members some of the worst offenders of human rights ever and yet they condem the U.S for human right violations. I could go on but you are too willing to put this country at risk just to appease a few ungrateful europeans.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Typical short-term thinking, Little Buddy. I'm looking longer term, and the sooner we make a serious committment to shed oil, the better we are as a nation. But you don't see that, so you don't have a clue, I guess.

You can think as long term as you want. Until you can make something that is economically viable, is reliable, and most of all is safe it doesn't mean a thing. You can get as serious as you want and I would be the first to agree that someone somewhere needs to stick some r&d dollars into an alternative but meanwhile the problem is still here as is the oil in our own backyard that people like you won't let us drill for. It's great to be green, lets see you come up with some sustainable, green ideas that can be proven and will work economically. Till then it's just another article for Popular Mechanics.

BTW, why is it you feel the need to use foul language and use insulting remarks? If you want to by all means do so but it does nothing but cheapen your debate.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Thumper3181
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:50 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:04 am

WOW. Falcon you surprise me. I never took you for a conservative Democrat/Liberal Republican. Well, welcome to the club. For the most part I agree with your post. I would modify/add a few things and point out that in order for Dems to win it's people like Jaysit who have far too much to say in the Democratic party.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Babs Streisand's views ultra left? The woman is probably to the right of many a Dem. Michael Moore?

You have just proven my argument.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Alec Baldwin who yammers stupidly on how he would leave the US if GWB won? The first 3 are hardly ultra-leftist;

Responsible people make thoughtful public comments or do not make any at all. People who make irresponsible comments are to be shunned.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Hollywood celebs who support Dems are a bunch of anti-American fiends

For the most part, yes. They do not like my mainstream family values. They see it as a threat to their do your own thing, feel good and make as much money, screw society views.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
The Dems will only win if they stop being a party that stands for nothing,

They will never win with the likes of Babs, Michael Moore, Howard Dean, Hillary or everyone's favorite socialist George Soros.

Give me a Lieberman, Bayah, or Bruex anyday.


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
I agree on the energy independence . . . Especially in regards to finding alternative forms of energy.

So do I, and while I would like there to be some miracle and we can find a real form of alternative energy, there is no free lunch and many of the "alternative" forms proposed either have other drawbacks, do not have the potential to be significant players or will just be too damn expensive. Someone needs to have a good frank conversation with the American public and remind them that there is no free lunch, miracle silver bullet, or way to conserve our way to independence.

Of all the alternate forms of energy, the only one with any potential at all to make a difference is solar. It should be used in conjunction with other energy sources such as nuclear, coal, ethanol and shale oil. At 40 bucks a barrel there is a 1000 year supply of oil in the form of shale oil out west.

All the other alternate forms are only pipe dreams and we need to start recognizing that fact.

The other modification I would add is in working with our friends. You are a friend if we have the same interest as us. We should not enter in to International agreements that do not clearly benefit the US. We should be ready and willing to act alone if it is in our national interest. Making friends is nice and sometimes useful, but our national interest should always trump it.

We need to start protecting our markets, jobs, and skill base. All trade agreements should be revisited as well as our participation in the WTO. If you want access to our market you play by our rules.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 28):
Someone needs to have a good frank conversation with the American public and remind them that there is no free lunch, miracle silver bullet, or way to conserve our way to independence.

Problem with your commentary here Thumper is it's not JUST the American public that consumes petroleum. China is using oil at an incredible rate. Every damn country on earth uses plastics . . . broaden your perspective there. The US is not such the evil empire as some might be led to believe. If the US completely changed its paradym on cinsumption of petroleum, and the balance (or good portion thereof) of the world doesn't, it won't matter either way. It must be a wholesale change.

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 28):
We need to start protecting our markets, jobs, and skill base. All trade agreements should be revisited as well as our participation in the WTO. If you want access to our market you play by our rules

Arrogantly said - but I'm inclined to go along. Give and take is fine - UNTIL it hurts American jobs and American companies. Then it's time to cease fire that bullshit.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Thumper3181
Posts: 240
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
not JUST the American public that consumes petroleum. China is using oil at an incredible rate. Every damn country on earth uses plastics . . . broaden your perspective there.

But I have. Rather than post links to all sorts of articles, I humble suggest you do some searches on shale oil, and coal gasification. You will see that WE have shitloads of the stuff and it becomes economical when oil stays above 35-40 barrel. It is the entire reason behind the European Global Warming scam. We can easily become the next Saudia Arabia 10 times over and they know it.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
No it's not. We need to let the Iraqi police do the job or policing the streets

Agreed, when they are ready which isn't yet. They have to overcome years of submission sort of like a convict coming out after a long stretch has to readjust to new rules. That takes time and you certainly wouldn't want to put them out there piecemeal to be chewed up. That being said....

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
We should be concentrating our efforts on a) training the Iraqi Army, b) closing the Iraqi borders to intruders and c) assisting the Iraqi Army in eliminating - with extreme prejudice - the insurgency.

We are, we are, and we are.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
No standing on street corners in Baghdad directing traffic . . .

You still have to patrol, you can't be on total defensive and not expect trouble at your door so unfortunately we will still have to have a presence on the street for the time being.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Wrong on the first coutn, I'll take the odds . . . double or nothing.

I'll gladly give them. Look back at Lebanon after we said we pulling out. No more attacks until after we left and then wham. Look what happened after we signed the peace accords with North Vietnam in '73. Nice and quiet until after we left and then the north started the war all over again.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Political unrest - nothing to do with the US/Coalition IMO.

Yes it does as many of the foreign fighters are there fighting the U.S. since it is one of Al Queda's basic tennants that the U.S. should not have any troops anywhere in the middle east.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
We should be concentrating our efforts on a) training the Iraqi Army, b) closing the Iraqi borders to intruders and c) assisting the Iraqi Army in eliminating - with extreme prejudice - the insurgency.

We are, we are, and we are.

a) Not enough. b) Not at all IMHO. c) We are - contrary to news reports - still the lead in this offensive operation. We may give credit to the Iraqi military, but - as was reported by the DoD and acknowledged by senior officials in the administration - there is but ONE effective Iraqi Battalion at this point.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
No standing on street corners in Baghdad directing traffic . . .

You still have to patrol, you can't be on total defensive and not expect trouble at your door so unfortunately we will still have to have a presence on the street for the time being.

It was an anaology . . . not a literal statement. We should not be the lead responders to crime in Baghdad . . . or elsewhere . . . otherwise there is NOT incentive for the Iraqi police to excel.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Yes it does as many of the foreign fighters are there fighting the U.S. since it is one of Al Queda's basic tennants that the U.S. should not have any troops anywhere in the middle east.

I don't disagree that some foreign fighters are there to kill US/Coalition troops - but they're killing more Iraqi's than they are us. That has to stop. As long as the Iraqi military is still weak, it will continue. It will continue no matter whether we are there or not. It will continue after we leave, only then their cause will be to advance whatever politicial/religious affilition they have chosen to side with.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
tennants

tenets wink 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
It was an anaology . . . not a literal statement. We should not be the lead responders to crime in Baghdad . . . or elsewhere . . . otherwise there is NOT incentive for the Iraqi police to excel.

I understand and agree and to some extent I think that is happening. I think we have officers assigned to Iraqi forces and sooner or later the balance will start to shift. As I said earlier you have to change a lifetime of thought and that is just going to take awhile. How many posts did you see here about how long it was taking to get a Constitution together?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
tenets

You're right. Working a busted DCA flight and trying to type at the same time, not a good mix.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
seb146
Posts: 14048
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:23 am

How can the Dems win on '08? A hostile takeover of Diebold.....

GO CANUCKS!!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
How many posts did you see here about how long it was taking to get a Constitution together?

Several, including one's I wrote regarding the length of time it took for a certain thirteen colonies to get their constitution together way back when. I don't expect miracles overnight . . .

I did however expect to see more of the local policing burden taken over by the Iraqis at this point. I think they continue to rely too heavily on us.

I do understand your point . . . .

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
As I said earlier you have to change a lifetime of thought and that is just going to take awhile

. . . . and as I just mention above, this post, I don't expect miracles . . . just progress . . .

In fact, I fully expect a significant US military presence in Iraq for about another 18-24 months, and a continued presence there through the next ten years.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
texdravid
Posts: 1397
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:38 am

Unfortunately, I do not think that the Dems have to do ANYTHING to win the presidency in 2008, given the sad state of affairs in the Republican party.

While Bush was always hated by the liberals, the mainstream media, and by a plurality of centrists, he always had the conservatives strongly supporting him by over 90%.

Now, with this abhorrent Miers nomination, Bush has succeeded to do what the dems have not done in 5 years, that is fracture his base. This nomination divided the theocons from the neo- and establishment Republicans, and I don't think this fracture will heal anytime soon, and most certainly not by the person causing the injury in the first place, George Bush.

The sad part about this whole unseemly spectacle was that it was completely unnecessary. If Bush had picked a conservative with impeccable credentials, he/she may not have won, and may not have been confirmed, but it would have fired up his disillusioned base who would then fight for him for the remainer of his term. Now, no one will lift a finger to help Bush. Myself and many of his (former?) supporters aren't going to be writing the checks if it means throwing away THE PICK OF THE NEW MILLENIUM on the Supreme Court.

If I were a Democrat, I would simply keep quiet, allow the Republicans to self-immolate and pick up an easy victory in 2008.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
In fact, I fully expect a significant US military presence in Iraq for about another 18-24 months, and a continued presence there through the next ten years.

Agreed.  crossfingers 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
scamp
Posts: 616
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:01 am

I personally think there is a good chance for the Dems, with Falcon's ideas coming to play. Let's face it, many Americans are facing the fact that Bush is a tragedy that is just inches from happening. My personal joy that all Republican politicians would spontaneously combust aside, if these clowns keep at it with the business as usual there isn't any doubt in my mind that great strides will be made in '06 ad '08.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
glydrflyr
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:46 am

Since the basic premise of this thread was what the Dems can do to win in '08, I'd like to join this free-for-all. The Dems have been subject to seriously damaging infighting for many decades, with the extreme left and center factions at each others throats, while the party drifts aimlessly with no discernible program, save opposing whatever the Administration proposes. Their last POTUS was unarguably the most corrupt individual to occupy the White House, at least during my memory, which goes all the way back to FDR. They will not be a viable organization until their civil war ends, and with Howard Dean as head of the DNC, it looks like the leftists are winning this round of battles. If they win all the battles, and the war, the Democratic Party will fade away into nothingness, and a new party will arise with most of the ideals of the center of the current Dems in place, and will be much more palatable to the average US citizen.

As far as the energy question goes, and all of us here in the US are concerned about fuel for our vehicles and for our heating needs, there is a very affordable and practical option available right now. It is E-85, a mix of ethanol (The "E" in E-85) and 85% gasoline. The big problem with ethanol fuel has not been the fuel itself, but the deterioration of sealing components in the fuel delivery system, in other words, the gaskets and seals in the fuel tanks, pumps and filters. Very quietly, development of sealing compounds that withstand attack by either of these fuels has been completed, and 99% of the US manufactured vehicles from the 2006 model year on are capable of using either gasoline or E-85 without any modification of any kind to the fuel delivery or combustion systems. This stuff is cheaper than gasoline, emits far less pollutants, does not affect mileage, and is renewable. Just type E85 into your web browser and you'll see what I mean.
if ya gotta crash, hit something soft and cheap!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
4. Commit to rebuilding our long-standing ties and friendships in Europe and among other traditional allies. That doesn't mean they control our policies, but they will be consulted, not steamrolled, on issues that affect them as well as us.

The only point I don't agree with. Our allies are currently consulted on issues that affect them, and they aren't steamrolled - unless they take positions that are counter to our interests.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
I don't think even that will honestly win the presidency for Dems in 08.

Honestly, the Republicans have just become too damn good at propaganda. No matter what the Dems try, I truly believe the republicans will win again in 2008.

I couldn't disagree more. The republicans have done such a miserable job - especially on Capitol Hill - that as long as the democrats run a viable candidate, they will take over the WH in 2008. The only republican who could win in 2008 is John McCain, and he'll never get nominated, thanks to the rightwingers in the republican party.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4):
6. Commit to real reform of the major entitlement systems (medicare, medicaid, social security) which use up an ever larger proportion of total government spending and are crowding out discretionary spending (or increasing deficits).

7. Commit to a real tax reform which would eliminate many special interest deductions

8. Commit to real immigration reform (it is a joke that there are allegedly currently more illegal than legal immigrants in the US)

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
The Republicans will eventually destroy themselves, the Democrats will come back, and it will repeat...it's just the way things go. Damn party lines...

Both political parties are what's wrong with government in our country today, IMO.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
The Dems will only win if they stop being a party that stands for nothing, and if they have ideas that show that they stand for fiscal responsibility, freedom from government obstrusiveness, and if they present ideas in plain english, rather than in political speak.

 checkmark 

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 36):
Now, with this abhorrent Miers nomination, Bush has succeeded to do what the dems have not done in 5 years, that is fracture his base. This nomination divided the theocons from the neo- and establishment Republicans, and I don't think this fracture will heal anytime soon, and most certainly not by the person causing the injury in the first place, George Bush.

So the theocons are upset? Where are they going to go in 2008? Vote for a liberal democrat? Stay home and pout, which will result in the election of a liberal democrat?

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 36):
If Bush had picked a conservative with impeccable credentials, he/she may not have won, and may not have been confirmed, but it would have fired up his disillusioned base who would then fight for him for the remainer of his term. Now, no one will lift a finger to help Bush.

Gee, did the Constitution get amended while I was out of the country recently? I didn't think George Bush could run again in 2008.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 25):
I'm not sure that committing to see Iraq through to the end is either necessary or advisable for the Democratic Party.

I disagree. We HAVE to make a committment to Iraq, or else our name, already shit around the world thanks to Mr. Bush and his hangers' on, will be nothing; our word will never be trusted again; and we INCREASE the chance of a hostile, terrorist-supporting regime, like Iran or Syria, filling the void left behind. We have to commit to Iraq now.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
I continue to say what I have said all along. We should do what is in our best interest

So, if in "our best interest", it hurts Germans, or the French, or the Aussies, or the Japanese, we just do it? If our actions will affect them, we can't just unilaterally impose our will on those free, soverign nations, and tell them "go fuck yourself" if they don't agree. When you're a power like the U.S., and one that has been seen as a responsible power for the last 60 years, you must take into account how your actions will affect others.

To say and do the opposite, Little Buddy, is irresponsible, arrogant and will continue to damage our reputation for years to come. Seems to me we survived pretty well, conferring with our friends and allies, long before 9/11 and long before Mr. Bush was in office.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
If the French and Germans, as well as the Russians and Chinese agree, fine, if not, oh well.



Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
Gee, perhaps you have failed to understand that most of the rest of the world resents us for what we have acheived and would like nothing better than to take us down a notch.

That's typical, right-wing, scared paranoia talking, nothing else, and is far from the truth. if most of the world resents us so much, why does so much of the world want to BE like us. You've got it wrong, and of that, I have no doubt.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
We've been hated in many parts of the world,if not by the government then by the people for years.

You're always going to find some who hate you. No doubt of that, but when your longtime friends and allies-those who you've stood shoulder-to-shoulder with, through world war, cold war, and everything in between, start hating you and not trusting your word, Little Buddy, you've crossed a line that has to be crossed back over, then erased forever.

You will not be able to make everyone like you. But if you've pissed off those who have liked and supported you for decades, then something is very wrong with the policy of a nation.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
You can think as long term as you want. Until you can make something that is economically viable, is reliable, and most of all is safe it doesn't mean a thing.

The you do one thing, right now: START THE PROCESS! Get together be best minds in the energy business, in science, at our Universities and Colleges, and get going on it! Hell, if JFK, in 1961, says he wants a man on the moon by 1970, when, at the time, we had barely gotten a space ship off the ground, and do it, we sure as hell can get our best minds together to do this in a window of a decade and a half!

Most of it is just having the political will to do it. Do we have it, or do we just keep saying "more oil!"

Quoting Thumper3181 (Reply 28):
WOW. Falcon you surprise me. I never took you for a conservative Democrat/Liberal Republican.

I'm a center-left Democrat, and I've told you and other that over and over and over. It's not my fault, Thumper, if you were deliberately blinded by that fact, and instead would rather call someone who didn't agree with your "traitor". If you're surprised, that's your own freaking fault. And I'm still waiting for that apology.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 36):
If I were a Democrat, I would simply keep quiet, allow the Republicans to self-immolate and pick up an easy victory in 2008.

That's tempting, Tex, but, sooner or later, you're going to have to enunciate what you stand for. I think it's important for the Democratic party, in the face of the GOP's blunders since 9/11, to make a marked difference in it's approach to governing domestically and internationally, but doing so from the center.

And since I know your view on Ms. Meiers, maybe the Dems should add to a plank of theirs "no cronyism" when it comes to hiring on important positions like Director of FEMA and USSC.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:27 am

A persepctive from abroad...

Dear Democrats, stop putting wealthy, aloof, totally uninspiring candidates up for President. First Gore, then Kerry. Learn that lesson and perhaps monkeys will stop winning.

The GOP is reeling from a combination of issues at present - the abysmal Hurricane Katrina response; widespread corruption; massive fiscal incompetence; more corrpution; and a lame duck President who appears as directionless as, well, he's always been (hence his abysmal poll ratings).

If the Democrats can't win with that platter, then they're totally incompetent.

Oh and if Democrats boot out the Hollywood element from their party, then can the Republicans get rid of FOX News too please? Honestly we laugh ourselves silly over here watching that garbage, even the more right wingers amongst us.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:23 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
Gore is still an ongoing joke

And to think I once I had some amount of respect for that pant-load. Thought he was a good Southern-Democrat, not like the Banshee-Democrats we have parading up and down the Pacific Rim and Bay State.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
It's too bad Obama doesn't have enough experience

Yet.
America's first African-American President in the making.
Unlike Colin Powel, Obama wants it.

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 12):
The American people are fed up with northeastern liberals and SF Bay area/Hollyweird liberals and their extreme agendas

Hell Steve, the American people just 75 miles east in the Central Valley of California are sick of it.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
The reality is that the GOP propagandist machine has done an excellent job in convincing you and everyone else that the Hollywood celebs who support Dems are a bunch of anti-American fiends out to destroy the world.

Hollywood and Politics.
Hmm.
Both a bunches of people very far removed from mainstream America...but both purporting to have their fingers on the pulse....both in a pissing match for the intellectual real estate of the average American.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 23):
How much American blood was spilled in the past 100 years over those two countries? Who rebuilt them after not one but two world wars?

I think if you walk a mile in their shoes, you may see it differently.
Sure, the Americans lost a lot of boys...but nothing compared to entire generations of European families being wiped clean from the map.
Just got back from Dresden, for God's sake, the city still bears scars from the last great war...60 years ago!
I will not fault them for not wanting to rush into a war with debatable purpose and outcome.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
Gee, perhaps you have failed to understand that most of the rest of the world resents us for what we have acheived and would like nothing better than to take us down a notch. How is that so unfathomable to you?

I am a firm believer, that others believe in the win-win...unilateral expansion of ideology is what gets the world in these unwinnable death matches...oh sure, historians will say this nation won this war, and this nation won that, but I still, after 40 plus years of studying this shit, fail to see a victor of any war...and yes...I am a moderate Republican.

For those that think that a Democratic President will suddenly mean a world once again in love with America; remember, much of the hatred and animosity that led up to 9/11, was the result of a Democratic President ruling this warm and fuzzy land for eight long years...
People just don't wake up suddenly hating someone or something...not even extremist whack-jobs...that shit takes years to distill.

Bush, in the immortal words of Billy Joel, "didn't start the fire".
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kevi747
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:54 pm

Why can't Americans get fed up with both of these self-serving parties and start a new one? It's really tiring how on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE there is a Republican side/Democratic side; left side/right side; Red state/Blue state. There's no room left for thought, or working together to solve something, it's always just about squaring off in opposing corners and duking it out.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
Pope
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:51 pm

I've put this together.

Falcon84 is the antichrist.

In this thread he's talking about strategy for winning the WhiteHouse in 2008 and in another thread, he's talking about splitting with the Catholic Church!

Beware!

 Wink
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
jaysit
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:01 pm

Anyone who thinks that Hillary is an "extreme liberal" (whatever the hell that means) is clueless as to her voting record and her stance on issues in the Senate. When I had a chance of watching her in action during markup hearings on a bill to create incentives for anti-bioterror agents, she appeared to be the only fiscal conservative on the floor (oddly enough, making Richard Burr of North Carolina look like a spend and spend fool). Her agenda with respect to this issue was private sector incentives without ridiculous patent term evergreening so as to keep costs down.

I never used to think that HRC had a chance in hell of winning, but seeing her smarts and the manner in which she keeps emphasizing speed of legislation with a strict eye on the bottom line (something that her conservative compatriots across the aisle seem to have abandoned) makes me believe that she can win. All that the Rush Limbaughs and dimwitted self-anointed Conservatives have against her is a barrage of stupid attacks ranging from "she's a b*tch, to she's Janet Reno's play toy, to worse."

Government is all about governance. Not about putting people who worship the same God in the same manner as you do into power. If the Dems can say "We govern," then they can win.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Matt D
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:05 pm

Why can't Americans get fed up with both of these self-serving parties and start a new one? It's really tiring how on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE there is a Republican side/Democratic side; left side/right side; Red state/Blue state. There's no room left for thought, or working together to solve something, it's always just about squaring off in opposing corners and duking it out.

You mean the very same Americans who cannot take the time to actually do some research, read the full text of proposed laws, and watch the debates? Aren't these the same Americans who prefer neat little 30 second "summary" sound bites to make their minds up?

I mean seriously. Who's got time to read through that stuff? There's a sale going on at Macy's. And I've GOT to check out that new Jessica Simpson movie.
 
Pope
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:07 pm

Jay,

Don't you think that her move towards the middle will leave her open for attacks from the left? The Democrats have traditionally fallen into the pattern of attacking their own so brutally in the nominating process that it's hurt them in the general election.

Kerry had to move to his left to win the nomination and Rove was able to exploit that with the now infamous "flip-flop" charges.

Do you think that HRC's mere presence will scare away most major opponents within the party or do you think she'll have to fight for the nomination?

BTW - Senator McCain was in CA yesterday and he sure as hell seemed like a Presidential candidate given the speeches and interviews he was giving.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: How The Dems Can Win In '08

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:17 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 27):
I continue to say what I have said all along. We should do what is in our best interest

So, if in "our best interest", it hurts Germans, or the French, or the Aussies, or the Japanese, we just do it? If our actions will affect them, we can't just unilaterally impose our will on those free, soverign nations, and tell them "go fuck yourself" if they don't agree. When you're a power like the U.S., and one that has been seen as a responsible power for the last 60 years, you must take into account how your actions will affect others.

While I agree on both posts here, I have to say Falcon, there must be a line. When does the US stop worrying about apeasing everyone else, and start worrying about taking care of it's own. There is plenty in this country that has been neglected for too long by too many. Infrastructure issues (bridges, roads, water systems, dams, sewers, airports, rail lines, etc), education issues (schools falling down - go to DC some time), screwed into the groudn give-away welfare system . . . .

When do we draw the line at giving a damn what Germany, France, China, Japan, Brazil - any one else - thinks when we have our own issues?

There must be a fine balance - but when it comes down to brass tacks and the choice is us or them - there's NO question in my mind what the answer will be for me . . . THEY can go to hell.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
But if you've pissed off those who have liked and supported you for decades, then something is very wrong with the policy of a nation.

Agreed - to a point. See my previous statement.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 44):
Why can't Americans get fed up with both of these self-serving parties and start a new one?

I think if you took a poll Kevi, you'd probably find that to be the case already. It surely is in my mind, and in my circle of influence/friends. I think you'll find a decent number of A-Netters that would concur . . . with the usual, notable exceptions. The issue is, starting a new, viable third party and building a base that is strong enough; building it fast enough and with the right people in the right places in enough time to make a difference. With only 4 years between presidential elections, I think it would take 2-3 election cycles for anything positive to come of it. And that's wishful thinking. Wishing that the entire process can be done, and remain strong enough for 8-12 years with the right people in place to sqway enough votes away from the Dems and Repubs to make it count.
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