Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:07 am

Looks like he gets indictment #1, with possibly more to follow in PlameGate.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/28/leak.probe/index.html

I still have a feeling the Libby, if he's remotely human, will be saying "damned if I'm going down by myself."

I think this is act 1 of a long, interesting process.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
jaysit
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:22 am

But perjury doesn't merit an indictment.

---- The NEW Gospel according to Republicans.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:27 am

"President Bush's top political strategist Karl Rove will not be indicted today,"

Well, at least the "architect" will be around the White House for a while. Without him, Bush is lost...
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
EI747SYDNEY
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:28 am

So I wonder if GWB will be able to get his ''brain'' out of this mess

Rob
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 2):
"President Bush's top political strategist Karl Rove will not be indicted today,"

Well, at least the "architect" will be around the White House for a while. Without him, Bush is lost...

I still think it's only a matter of time, SFOMEX. I still think this is just Episode I, Act I.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:50 am

This is funny.

Coldn't get Rove with 22 months of investigations.

And Libby wasn't busted on Joe's wife either....Episode 1, Act 1 of a piss poor comedy is what it is.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
stlgph
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:51 am

awww, too bad, oh so sad.

btw, I miss Harriett Miers already.

too bad The Daily Show doesn't air tonight.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
drewfly
Posts: 299
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 5):
This is funny.

Coldn't get Rove with 22 months of investigations.

And Libby wasn't busted on Joe's wife either....Episode 1, Act 1 of a piss poor comedy is what it is.

As stated previously, this is Act 1 Scene 1 buddy. 2nd, you have no idea what is happening with Libby as the press conference is not till 2 p.m. EDT. Also, Rove is by no means scott free, there is much much more to come. Nice to know you think investigating the outing of a CIA agent is a "piss poor comedy."

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:02:40]

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:03:16]
A-10 Thunderbolt II, ugly as hell, efficient as hell, would you like to meet my boomstick?
 
halls120
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I still have a feeling the Libby, if he's remotely human, will be saying "damned if I'm going down by myself."

I think this is act 1 of a long, interesting process.

Possibly, but I think it is more likely he'll take one for the team, and wait until 2009 to tell his side of the story. Say what you want about Bush, but his loyalists are generally more reticent about trashing their boss.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
I still think it's only a matter of time, SFOMEX. I still think this is just Episode I, Act I.

Based on what? That a new Woodward and Bernstein will appear, digging up new dirt no one is aware of? I'm not trying to provoke an argument here - I'm really interested in what your basis is for this speculation, because from what I've read, this investigation has nearly run out of gas.

Quoting Drewfly (Reply 7):
As stated previously, this is Act 1 Scene 1 buddy. 2nd, you have no idea what is happening with Libby as the press conference is not till 2 p.m. EDT. Also, Rove is by no means scott free, there is much much more to come.

What? Several people keep suggesting there is more to come, but could you give us an idea of what this might be?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Drewfly (Reply 7):
Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 5):
This is funny.

Coldn't get Rove with 22 months of investigations.

And Libby wasn't busted on Joe's wife either....Episode 1, Act 1 of a piss poor comedy is what it is.

As stated previously, this is Act 1 Scene 1 buddy. 2nd, you have no idea what is happening with Libby as the press conference is not till 2 p.m. EDT. Also, Rove is by no means scott free, there is much much more to come. Nice to know you think investigating the outing of a CIA agent is a "piss poor comedy."

Newsflash...she wasn't outed.

I am with all of you though, let's wait and see how this plays out.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jaysit
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 5):
Coldn't get Rove with 22 months of investigations.

Awwww.

Well, didn't get Clinton on Whitewater after 4 yrs of investigations (but I bet you still think he's guilty as sin), got Nixon only after 18 months of investigations.

This isn't Nancy Drew going after the Ghost of Petticoat Lane.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
11Bravo
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:24 am

Libby is the first senior White House official to be indicted in 130 years. That was during the Grant administration and I think that comparison is just about right; dishonesty, corruption, incompetence, and stupidity.

Rove's lawyers have just said that Rove remains a "principle" target of the ongoing investigation. He is far from out of the woods just yet.

It is also now clear, from information in the indictments, that Cheney made repeated false statements in the press. Obviously that isn't under oath, but it proves that Cheney is a liar, and that this administration went to great lengths to cook information regarding WMD. We’ll all be hearing a lot more about that during the trial because Richard “The Liar” Cheney will be a major witness.

This is the final straw for me regarding this phony in the White House and his band of lying cronies. I will never believe another word any of them say.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
b757300
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:24 am

And most Americans are saying "Scooter Who?"

It's funny though. When Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice we were told it was no big deal. Now the same people who defended Clinton are having orgasms and basically calling for Libby's execution.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
VSlover
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting Drewfly (Reply 7):
Nice to know you think investigating the outing of a CIA agent is a "piss poor comedy."

i still dont undestand how she didnt out herself--she doesnt appear to be the most covert of spies based on her day-to-day appearance:



i mean what did people think she was? a dental hygenist?
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I think this is act 1 of a long, interesting process.

Long, yes - but not at all a surprise. But it will be VERY long.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 2):
Well, at least the "architect" will be around the White House for a while. Without him, Bush is lost...

 checkmark  Without him, GWB is indeed lost.

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 6):
btw, I miss Harriett Miers already.

You miss Miers already? I don't miss her.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Pope
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
But perjury doesn't merit an indictment.

Isn't that exactly what the left was saying about Clinton?

If the guy violated the law against perjury he (Libby) should go to jail. But the rule should apply equally regardless of political affiliation.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
sw733
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:30 am

I'm curious to see how deep this goes. If this will show that the evidence GW used to go to Iraq was fake, or if it legitimizes his actions. Granted, if it turns out he did make up everything, it can't do anything but ideologically, however, that could hurt the Republican party in 2006 and 2008. I love politics!  Smile
 
halls120
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting B757300 (Reply 12):
And most Americans are saying "Scooter Who?"

It's funny though. When Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice we were told it was no big deal. Now the same people who defended Clinton are having orgasms and basically calling for Libby's execution.

 rotfl  You didn't really expect people to be consistent, did you?

Quoting Pope (Reply 15):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
But perjury doesn't merit an indictment.

Isn't that exactly what the left was saying about Clinton?

If the guy violated the law against perjury he (Libby) should go to jail. But the rule should apply equally regardless of political affiliation.

In Washington? You expect people to be even-handed?  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Logan22L
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting B757300 (Reply 12):
It's funny though. When Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice we were told it was no big deal. Now the same people who defended Clinton are having orgasms and basically calling for Libby's execution.

If you are trying to equate a wet cigar and a cum-stained dress with a matter of national security, you'll have to make a stronger case than that. I'll agree that lying to a grand jury is lying to a grand jury, but courts are there to interpret each case on it's own merits or lack thereof. It's just not the same thing, although it appears that you'd like to simplify it that way.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
adam
Posts: 456
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting VSLover (Reply 13):
i still dont undestand how she didnt out herself--she doesnt appear to be the most covert of spies based on her day-to-day appearance:

Watch this video on her, I believe it explains what you're asking.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/free...width=793,height=608,scrollbars=no

adam

EDIT: GRAMMAR

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:48:00]
Texas: You'll come for the Alamo, You'll stay because you were wrongfully executed. - Conan O'Brian State Quarters
 
jaysit
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 15):
Isn't that exactly what the left was saying about Clinton?

I believe that the standard mantra on the left was that Clinton never had sex with Monica, who was just a deluded young girl spinning a fairy tale. (yeah, right.. DUH!!)

Until Clinton started muttering and sputtering like a lying, sleazy husband on the Maury Povich show and said BS like oral sex wasn't really sex, much of the deluded left believed him.

Also, lets put this in perspective. Lying about a BJ under oath (while execrable behaviour, especially for a President caught with his pants down, so to speak), seems rather puny when compared to the battery of lies trotted out to send a nation into war. Yes, a lie is a lie, but the former resulted in a dry cleaning bill, while the latter has cost us immensely as a nation.

I'm just nauseated that people like Kay Bailey Hutchinson now think that perjury within the context of a war merits less scrutiny, than one about oral sex. It only goes to show the sick, lying, tawdry mindset of these hypocritical social cons.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Stretch 8
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:49 am

Let's all do the Frogmarch!

Scooter in the dock, with Turdblossom to follow . . . all over the "outing" of the wife of a media-hungry phoney. Typical Washington soap opera.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:50 am

I have a vision. It comes to me in the night as I'm dozing off to sleep.

It's shows George Bush having a temper tantrum in the Oval Office. He's on his back kicking and screaming, "Nobody likes me. Why are they always picking on me? What did I do to THEM? Why don't they just leave me alone?" He grabs a fire ax and does his best Jack Torrance impression. Within a few minutes, his desk is firewood, the chandelier is on the floor in pieces, and the paintings are shreaded.

Then Laura runs in and rocks him gentling. Then she starts breast-feeding him.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
VSlover
Posts: 1860
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Adam (Reply 19):
Watch this video on her, I believe it explains what your asking.

well i was joking really...but thanks for the link, good short video there.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:56 am

They went after Rove and got a scooter. Someone is not too happy about that. They went big game fishing and landed a smaller fish than they expected.

If Mr. Libby is guilty he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent. A lot of Americans don't seem to interested in this story however. But exposing a covert agent of the CIA is never a good thing be it an agent who has basically not done much "covert" of anything or a well placed highly sensitive spy.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
This is the final straw for me regarding this phony in the White House and his band of lying cronies. I will never believe another word any of them say.

That's pretty silly of you. Did you say that of the Clinton Administration too?

*Yawn* All this is of course is getting back at someone in the most political of ways, going after ones family member. Perhaps this is why the American public is giving this story the yawn that it deserves.

But that does not of course lessen the crime. If guilty prosecute. The story won't end though, they want Rove and wont settle for anyone less. Join me as I wish them well in their futile "political" witch hunt. Happy Halloween. Heh!
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
halls120
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 18):
I'll agree that lying to a grand jury is lying to a grand jury, but courts are there to interpret each case on it's own merits or lack thereof. It's just not the same thing, although it appears that you'd like to simplify it that way.

Actually, lying to the Grand Jury is lying to the Grand Jury. Regardless of what the lie was about. Courts certainly take into account the merits of an individual case, but that consideration comes during the penalty phase.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
Also, lets put this in perspective. Lying about a BJ under oath (while execrable behaviour, especially for a President caught with his pants down, so to speak), seems rather puny when compared to the battery of lies trotted out to send a nation into war. Yes, a lie is a lie, but the former resulted in a dry cleaning bill, while the latter has cost us immensely as a nation

Oh, so the focus of Fitzgerald's investigation has been the basis for invading Iraq? Wow, and all along I thought it was only the Valerie Wilson expose.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
VSlover
Posts: 1860
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:36 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 24):
They went after Rove and got a scooter. Someone is not too happy about that. They went big game fishing and landed a smaller fish than they expected.

i think what a lot of people are missing here is that rove is still under investigation

he hasnt been indicted TODAY...who knows what is to come for him, if anything...but it is entirely premature to speculate that he is able to wash his hands clean of the mess today.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
Quoting B757300 (Reply 12):
And most Americans are saying "Scooter Who?"

It's funny though. When Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice we were told it was no big deal. Now the same people who defended Clinton are having orgasms and basically calling for Libby's execution.

You didn't really expect people to be consistent, did you?

Actually the biggest inconsistencies here are on the right. People who find a blowjob more treasonous than thousands upon thousands of deaths.

Read Kay Bailey Hutchinsons newly found legal views.

Clinton Impeachment

The edifice of American jurisprudence rests on the foundation of the due process of law. The mortar in that foundation is the oath. Those who seek to obstruct justice weaken that foundation, and those who violate the oath would tear the whole structure down.

Every day, thousands of citizens in thousands of courtrooms across America are sworn in as jurors, as grand jurors, as witnesses, as defendants. On those oaths rest the due process of law upon which all of our other rights are based.

The oath is how we defend ourselves against those who would subvert our system by breaking our laws. There are Americans in jail today because they violated that oath. Others have prevailed at the bar of justice because of that oath.

What would we be telling Americans -- and those worldwide who see in America what they can only hope for in their own countries -- if the Senate of the United States were to conclude: The President lied under oath as an element of a scheme to obstruct the due process of law, but we chose to look the other way?

I cannot make that choice. I cannot look away. I vote `Guilty' on Article I, Perjury. I vote `Guilty' on Article II, Obstruction of Justice.


Plamegate

I certainly hope that if there is going to be an indictment that says something happened, that it is an indictment on a crime and not some perjury technicality where they couldn’t indict on the crime so they go to something just to show that their two years of investigation were not a waste of time and dollars.

What a scumbag this woman is.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
adam
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:45 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting VSLover (Reply 23):

well i was joking really...but thanks for the link, good short video there.

My bad, yes it is a good video though.

adam
Texas: You'll come for the Alamo, You'll stay because you were wrongfully executed. - Conan O'Brian State Quarters
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
Actually, lying to the Grand Jury is lying to the Grand Jury. Regardless of what the lie was about. Courts certainly take into account the merits of an individual case, but that consideration comes during the penalty phase.

OK, then the courts can make identical determinations if lied to. Fine. But the court of public opinion certainly has the right to choose the greater of two evils. To some of us, lying about a freakin' BJ and lying about national security are two very different issues. That shouldn't be a reason to mock us. But you guys love to simplify it beyond all recognition and call us hypocrites for bringing it up in this new context. Bollocks. Totally different kettle of fish.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 27):
Actually the biggest inconsistencies here are on the right. People who find a blowjob more treasonous than thousands upon thousands of deaths.

Read Kay Bailey Hutchinsons newly found legal views.

OK, so Hutchinson has joined the ranks of those who have selective amnesia. I'm sure, however, that in the coming days, we will read condemnations of Libby by those on the left who similarly dismissed Clinton's perjury as unimportant.

Are you going to call those people scumbags as well?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting VSLover (Reply 13):
i still dont undestand how she didnt out herself--she doesnt appear to be the most covert of spies based on her day-to-day appearance:

That picture was taken from Vanity Fair, well after she had been outed.

Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 21):
Let's all do the Frogmarch!

Scooter in the dock, with Turdblossom to follow . . . all over the "outing" of the wife of a media-hungry phoney. Typical Washington soap opera.

You keep doing the frog march while 80% of the country believes that the White House engaged in illegalities.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
Oh, so the focus of Fitzgerald's investigation has been the basis for invading Iraq? Wow, and all along I thought it was only the Valerie Wilson expose.

And what do you think that the Valerie Plame expose was all about? That Lynne Cheney didn't like her fashion sense?

Fitzgerald's investigation is a legal investigation that will have enormous political implications.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 24):
*Yawn* All this is of course is getting back at someone in the most political of ways, going after ones family member. Perhaps this is why the American public is giving this story the yawn that it deserves.

LOL.
Polls taken all over the country indicate otherwise.
But go ahead and keep taking your mental oxycontin. You people need it.

Besides who heard of the Watergate Seven — Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell, Colson, Gordon C. Strachan, Robert Mardian, and Parkinson - prior to the Watergate scandal. Yet, it brought a presidency down.

So keep deluding yourself. Most Republicans of any stature recognize the enormity of this scandal.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
VSlover
Posts: 1860
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:36 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
That picture was taken from Vanity Fair, well after she had been outed.

i know...i know...i should have put a lame emoticon up, i am a regular subscriber to VF, natch.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 24):
*Yawn* All this is of course is getting back at someone in the most political of ways, going after ones family member. Perhaps this is why the American public is giving this story the yawn that it deserves.

But that does not of course lessen the crime. If guilty prosecute.

wow, how do you reconcile two contrary statments in such a short span?? i'm sure this will just be a blip on the presidents record as of late, right??

spare me.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting VSLover (Reply 32):
wow, how do you reconcile two contrary statments in such a short span??

It's called desperation. Big grin
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
Libby is the first senior White House official to be indicted in 130 years

So Clinton getting indicted for perjury doens't count? He seemed pretty senior to me.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 12):
And most Americans are saying "Scooter Who?"

Pretty much my thought, up until two weeks ago, I don't think we had heard of him at all.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
Also, lets put this in perspective. Lying about a BJ under oath (while execrable behaviour, especially for a President caught with his pants down, so to speak), seems rather puny when compared to the battery of lies trotted out to send a nation into war. Yes, a lie is a lie, but the former resulted in a dry cleaning bill, while the latter has cost us immensely as a nation.

I think we go out on a very slippery slope when we start allowing witnesses to a grand jury investigation to decide for themselves what they can and what they cannont lie about. I just finished hearing the Special Prosecutor's press conference and I think he hit the nail on the head - If we're not going to charge obstruction of justice and prejury when people lie to a grand jury, then [the Justice Dept] should pack up their bags and go home.

I completely agree. Scooter did the crime (I know innocent until proven guilty) and now must face the music. If he lied, he is guilty. What he lied about is irrelevant. In fact, I'm sure you conceed that he could be found innocent of the substantive crime of knowingly disclosing a CIA operative's name and still be found guilty of the obstruction and perjury charges.

While clearly lying about a BJ and lying about a CIA operative's identity are two completely different levels of importance, the distinction between those to matters is the basis for a separate criminal charge. In one the matter does not give rise to any crime (with the possible exception of criminally bad taste/judgment). In the other it is a separate criminal offense as defined by the US Code. However the perjury/obstruction charges do not merge into the substantive offense and therefore should be prosecuted in order to ensure the integrity of the grand jury process.

Remember the federal government has no way of prosecuting offenses absent the grand jury indictment process. Therefore, it's need to preserve its function is even more important on the federal level than it is at a state level.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:59 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
I think we go out on a very slippery slope when we start allowing witnesses to a grand jury investigation to decide for themselves what they can and what they cannont lie about.

Apparently, as Jaysit pointed out in an earlier post, Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison does not agree:

"I certainly hope that if there is going to be an indictment that says something happened, that it is an indictment on a crime and not some perjury technicality where they couldn't indict on the crime and so they go to something just to show that their two years of investigation was not a waste of time and taxpayer dollars." From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9764239/

I don't think we should allow anyone to decide when they can or cannot lie to a grand jusry, but as I said in an earlier post, lying about a wet cigar and a cum-stained dress are different from a matter of national security to the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION. Well, at least some of us. Guilty of lying = guilty of lying, yess. But some of us can distinguish damage to one's honor from damage to the perception of and integrity of a nation.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
just finished hearing the Special Prosecutor's press conference and I think he hit the nail on the head - If we're not going to charge obstruction of justice and prejury when people lie to a grand jury, then [the Justice Dept] should pack up their bags and go home.

Exactly.

And you undoubtedly also heared what the special prosecutor said about the seriousness of this particular act of perjury - that it jeopardized national security.

All lies are lies. But some lies are LIES.

[Edited 2005-10-28 21:37:46]
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 36):
. Guilty of lying = guilty of lying, yess. But some of us can distinguish damage to one's honor from damage to the perception of and integrity of a nation

And Ken Starr probing Clinton about Monica had NOTHING whatsoever to do with Whitewater, which is what he was (supposed to be) investigating. If Starr hadn't abused his investigative authority to pursue a prurient, but unrelated matter, perhaps the majority of Americans who don't hate Clinton with blind rage would have been more outraged that he didn't burn for his offense. Like it or not, trying to compare Monicagate with Plamegate is comparing apples with oranges, except on the most elementary of levels.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 38):
Like it or not, trying to compare Monicagate with Plamegate is comparing apples with oranges, except on the most elementary of levels.

A teaspoon of semen to a river of blood is how I see it.

But then, spooge is always more provocative than blown up bodies for some people.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
And what do you think that the Valerie Plame expose was all about? That Lynne Cheney didn't like her fashion sense?

Fitzgerald's investigation is a legal investigation that will have enormous political implications.

Political importance, maybe. All the lefties that want to get back for Monicagate are already gearing up. They can't do anything about 2000 or 2004, so this is fresh meat for them. And if they overplay the case - as did the republicans with Monica - it will certainly come back to bite them in the butt....

But on a legal level, it's just about lying to a Grand Jury. Which CANNOT be tolerated, whether it was about a BJ or about who might have been a covert operative at one time.

Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
I completely agree. Scooter did the crime (I know innocent until proven guilty) and now must face the music. If he lied, he is guilty. What he lied about is irrelevant. In fact, I'm sure you concede that he could be found innocent of the substantive crime of knowingly disclosing a CIA operative's name and still be found guilty of the obstruction and perjury charges.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 36):
I don't think we should allow anyone to decide when they can or cannot lie to a grand jury, but as I said in an earlier post, lying about a wet cigar and a cum-stained dress are different from a matter of national security to the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION. Well, at least some of us.

A sad state of affairs, IMO, but even if you are right, so what? Bush can't run for re-election, and Cheney's health precludes a run for the brass ring? What other goal does trying to create a Scootergate satisfy other than making Washington even more politically toxic than it already is?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:00 am

Number one....indictments are not convictions. Everyone is acting like this is a done deal.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
But perjury doesn't merit an indictment.

---- The NEW Gospel according to Republicans.

Perjury merits an indictment. Period. Stop assigning blanket statements, they are almost always wrong.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I still have a feeling the Libby, if he's remotely human, will be saying "damned if I'm going down by myself."

I don't think so. Wishful thinking on your part as well as others.

Quoting Drewfly (Reply 7):
Nice to know you think investigating the outing of a CIA agent is a "piss poor comedy."

I think that the entire episode has been piss poor comedy. This CIA agent seemed to have already been known around town as an employee of the CIA...which does not excuse anyone identifying her in violation of the law as part of the politics.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
t is also now clear, from information in the indictments, that Cheney made repeated false statements in the press. Obviously that isn't under oath, but it proves that Cheney is a liar, and that this administration went to great lengths to cook information regarding WMD.

And you weren't feeling that way before?

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 11):
This is the final straw for me regarding this phony in the White House and his band of lying cronies. I will never believe another word any of them say.

And you weren't there before? C'mon....no false dramatics. You didn't trust them before this.....


Quoting Logan22L (Reply 18):
I'll agree that lying to a grand jury is lying to a grand jury, but courts are there to interpret each case on it's own merits or lack thereof. It's just not the same thing,

Perjury is perjury. If Libby is guilty he should get the same penalty as President Clinton did. Oh....no...wait....he should actually be penalized in a meaningful way as a method of discouraging others.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 27):
Actually the biggest inconsistencies here are on the right. People who find a blowjob more treasonous than thousands upon thousands of deaths.

Once again, ignoring the worse aspects of his actions and trying to rehabilitate him through misdirection.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 29):
To some of us, lying about a freakin' BJ and lying about national security are two very different issues.

Well, the problem being discussed is lying to the American people and lying to the juries. I expect misdirection and untruth when questions are asked concerning secret matters.....it's illegal to answer most of those questions correctly. I expect truth when someone is put in front of the grand jury. If the matter is one of national policy, then that's one thing. It looks like this was a side effect of political action taken as part of a campaign of mutual discreditation. I think that if Libby was smart he'd have told the truth or simply refused to testify and taken his lumps. Lying to the grand jury, if that's what he did, is wrong.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):
A sad state of affairs, IMO, but even if you are right, so what? Bush can't run for re-election, and Cheney's health precludes a run for the brass ring? What other goal does trying to create a Scootergate satisfy other than making Washington even more politically toxic than it already is?

If it changes one mind of a Republican who votes blindly Republican, IMO, it's worth it. Perhaps if this nation is built on corruption, deception, nepotism, back-stabbing, self-glorification, and pandering then the whole system deserves to get torn down and we can just start again. I'm not coming from one side or another, here. Enough is enough from both sides.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
I don't think so. Wishful thinking on your part as well as others.

I thnik it's typical GOP blindness on your part, Ian. Amazing, you say your so center-right, but you alway run to the defense of anything GOP.

I highly doubt Scooter Libby was the only one involved in this thing. Wishful thinking on YOUR part, Ian.

I see the typical, lame, arrogant chirping from the right rising up as if this is some victory. It won't be. That's not trying to be partisian, but what I think will unfold.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 39):
A teaspoon of semen to a river of blood is how I see it.

Wait a minute here. Let's not mix two separate issues. It's now pretty well established that WMD did not exist in Iraq (at least not immediately before the Gulf War II). Whether we characterize the administration's position on WMD's as a lie or as incompetence is a matter of opinion.

But the release of Valerie Plame's name did not cause anyone to die nor does it bear any relation to the purported "river of blood" Jay mentions in his post. To say that any lying that may have occurred during Scooter's grand jury testimony resulted in GWII or is in any way responsible to the lives that have been lost since its start is factually incorrect. The lying by Libby, the basis of today's charges, occurred months if not years after the start of the war and bears absolutely no causal relationship to any loss of life.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
I think that the entire episode has been piss poor comedy. This CIA agent seemed to have already been known around town as an employee of the CIA...which does not excuse anyone identifying her in violation of the law as part of the politics.

You need to tune out Ann Coulter's rants and put down her GOP-by-numbers book. It makes you look like the partisan hack, that you insist you're not.

I'd rather go with a detailed investigation conducted by a non-partisan Special Counsel who did his homework. And this is his conclusion in the Indictment:

"Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson's affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community."

See UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. I. LEWIS LIBBY, also known as "SCOOTER LIBBY", Indictment, Grand Jury Charge 1(f).

Pardon me for my superior choice in sources.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
Once again, ignoring the worse aspects of his actions and trying to rehabilitate him through misdirection.

Don't extrapolate your own demons onto others.

If you bothered to read my posts, I found Clinton's behaviour nauseating and his blatant lies demeaning to the office. But while lies are lies, some lies bring shame to the Office of the President; others result not only in that, but also in the deaths of thousands, and in jeopardizing our national security.

Pardon me for caring.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
VSlover
Posts: 1860
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:36 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 44):
But the release of Valerie Plame's name did not cause anyone to die nor does it bear any relation to the purported "river of blood" Jay mentions in his post.

a minor point, but she was a secret agent, and you have no idea,no one--save for those with access--knows the effects her "outing" had on any of her peers, or contacts in countries she worked in during her career as a secret agent without cover.

as has been repeated ad naseum, the result of her outing on those she worked with is only known to those with the appropriate clearance.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting VSLover (Reply 46):
a minor point, but she was a secret agent, and you have no idea,no one--save for those with access--knows the effects her "outing" had on any of her peers, or contacts in countries she worked in during her career as a secret agent without cover.

I am in no way justifying or in any manner attempting to mitigate the seriousness of the criminal violation that Mr. Libby is accused of. I am only attempting to draw attention to factually non-existent relationship between Mr. Libby's lie and the purported river of blood Jay refers to.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 44):
The lying by Libby, the basis of today's charges, occurred months if not years after the start of the war and bears absolutely no causal relationship to any loss of life.

Does it not?

That's like saying that Clinton lying to the Grand Jury has no causal relationship with oral sex.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: And The "Winner" Is: Scooter Libby!

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 48):
That's like saying that Clinton lying to the Grand Jury has no causal relationship with oral sex.

I don't believe ex post facto lying about oral sex can be said to have caused the sex any more than lying to a grand jury about Ms. Plame can be said to have caused the GWII.

There may be a casual relationship between the two event but it is not causal.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.

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