oldeuropean
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Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:30 pm

That shows how the current US government wants to distribute democracy in the world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Quote:
The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

Now I know why e.g. Poland (part of what the US government calls "New Europe") is so liked by the US.

-Shame on the governments of these countries for becoming henchmen of this inhuman US activities .
After the incidents in the known prisons Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, I don`t want to know how they are treating the prisoners in a secret prison. And we are speaking about suspects, who never saw a lawyer or judge, and not every suspect is guilty.
-Shame on the US for this, anyway.

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 13:45:22]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
jwenting
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:39 pm

Just a revival of an old conspiracy theory started by the Kerry campaign during last year's presidential elections in the US.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Thread starter):
Shame on the US in any case.

Blah, blah, blah . . . do you troll the web along with a few other hate filled Euro A-Netters in hopes of finding your NEXT anti-American theme of the day?

I tire of your anti-American rhetoric all the time . . . perhaps you'd like to find somewhere else to post your drivel.

Do you presume that the US is the only country that does this? Are you so naive as to believe this type of activity has not gone on for decades; not just the last couple of years?

Quoting Oldeuropean (Thread starter):
Shame on the US in any case.

 redflag 
Shame on the countries that promote and support terrorists - there's where the same lies - not with the US.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
gkirk
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:46 pm

Oh dear, another bash the USA thread  Yeah sure

If you're going to bash them, at least do it properly, like saying that they are all morbidly obese, or that American football sucks  Wink
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EI747SYDNEY
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 3):
If you're going to bash them, at least do it properly, like saying that they are all morbidly obese, or that American football sucks

hahahahahaha

Rob
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Blah, blah, blah . . . do you troll the web along with a few other hate filled Euro A-Netters in hopes of finding your NEXT anti-American theme of the day?

I tire of your anti-American rhetoric all the time . . . perhaps you'd like to find somewhere else to post your drivel.

Do you presume that the US is the only country that does this? Are you so naive as to believe this type of activity has not gone on for decades; not just the last couple of years?

Read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Shame on the countries that promote and support terrorists - there's where the same lies - not with the US.

So, if I don`t abuse prisoners, I promote terrorists? What a great applied logic.

ANCFlyer, I don`t hate the US!! It`s a great country!!! I critcize the actions of this terrible government, which will go into history of one of the worst of the US!

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 13:58:40]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
jwenting
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:51 pm

Washington Post == Izvestiya  Smile
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gkirk
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
So, if I don`t abuse prisoners, I promote terrorists? What a great applied logic.

Of course, you are either with us or against us  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:59 pm

Not another "let's bash America" thread  bored 

Anyways I'd rather have these idiots somewhere behind bars, then having them run around freely in the world killing civilians...
 
ltbewr
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:59 pm

On the assumption that this is true - and the Washington Post should have named the 'Eastern European' countries that have these detention facilites, then the USA and the countries with these facilites may face significant problems. The article discusses the reasoning why these facilites - basicly torture facilities operated by the CIA - and why they came about. The information obtained from torture is often useless and worse, is often coutnerproductive. These facilites, in effect, are useless too.
The existance of these facilites may be violations by the USA and the site countries of a number of International treaties and agreements. Worse, they may add fuel to the fires of terrorism against the USA, the opposite of the goals of the War on Terror. I think President Bush and VP Chenny may face charges from international tribunals for this and related policies when they leave office. Then again, President Bush doesn't like to travel to them 'furrin' countries anyway.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
Read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....html

I read it. So frickin what?

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
So, if I don`t abuse prisoners, I promote terrorists? What a great applied logic.

Damn, your ALMOST as good at twisting words as Shoenorama . . . I didn't say that . . . at all. Get over it . . . you're laughable . . .

The shame you so readily hang on the US belongs with the countries that promote and support these terrorist assholes . . . you ought to be glad a few countries in this world stand up to their sorry asses . . . instead of blindly and ignorantly assuming "if we just keep quiet and keep a low profile no one will fuck with us". . . a demonstration of sublime ignorance.

And before you start babbling about my support of prisoner abuse I suggest you do some research into some of my previous posts on the subject. We wouldn't want you talking completely out of turn, now would we?

 irked 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Thorben
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:07 pm

Here is a German link for that.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,382864,00.html

The whole issue really is a shame. This American administration is befouling freedom, democracy, and Christianity, by claiming to work for those.

We should find out which countries those are and then kick 'em out of the EU. Kick them out without opening the door first.

And who supported GWB on his "holy" mission??? The little preacher's daughter from the Honecker-Reich, same person always complaining about the human rights situation in Turkey.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
The shame you so readily hang on the US belongs with the countries that promote and support these terrorist assholes . . . you ought to be glad a few countries in this world stand up to their sorry asses . . . instead of blindly and ignorantly assuming "if we just keep quiet and keep a low profile no one will fuck with us". . . a demonstration of sublime ignorance.

And before you start babbling about my support of prisoner abuse I suggest you do some research into some of my previous posts on the subject. We wouldn't want you talking completely out of turn, now would we?

So, why you criticize my post? Only because I`m criticizing the actions of your government. It looks like, you don`t care about what happens in your name as an American.

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Thread starter):
interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives

SOME ! There in GuantanamoBay (Havanna-East for RyanAir) are "some" 550 people, most of them just "guilty" of having been soldiers in the Taliban ruled army of Afghanistan or having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda. As soon as the USA allow the majority of them to get out, and only keep real terrorists, they can interrogate them on the NorthPole, in Antarctica or wherever they like to do so. True, they should keep up standards and behaviours and NOT embark onto some childish amusements like in AbuGhraib, BUT rather do such interrogations swiftly. To interrogate people who got captured in Nov-01 does not make much sense in 2005 . To do that interrogation business swiftly and thoroughly can in the end save dozens of lives .
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
We should find out which countries those are and then kick 'em out of the EU. Kick them out without opening the door first.

Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.
Now they allow concentration camps on their ground.

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 14:16:08]
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 12):
why you criticize my pos

well, your criticising the Bush-Jr government shows that you are NOT WITH the USA but AGAINST the USA. Keep a distance to US-airports, the free ticket for Havanna-EAST will be waiting for you !
-
 wave 
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 14):
Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.

But I think the overwhelming attraction of  dollarsign  spoke louder than dignity and those "little moral" issues at hand. Amazing how history repeats itself.

I don't want to create any polemics, since we don't know which european countries are indeed involved, but at least one of them ceased to exist for 200 years due to, in part, the greed of its own politicians and total lack of respect for its own population.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
(Havanna-East for RyanAir)

I thought it is Miami-South (or Washington-South?) for Ryanair. Big grin

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:23 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 12):
So, why you criticize my post? Only because I`m criticizing the actions of your government. It looks like, you don`t care about what happens in your name as an American.

OK, no offense, but I honestly don't understand your second sentence? However, my best answer, as I understand your comment is: I do care about what people think of this country. Not about me personally. I don't care that we have to use strong arm tactics to get the job done. It's a fact of life . . . it has always been so . . . it will always be so. And we are not alone in this - never have been . . . someone has to play hardball with the bad guys, and I don't care to have the US constantly beat up for it - since we are the coutry that stepped up to the plate, took the lead - along with the UK - and will eventually rid all decent nations of this terrorist scum . . . if it takes a few kicks in the ass on some terrorist suspects ass to get the job done - so be it. Don't say Shame on the countries that are fighting the fight - you should say shame on the countries that are sitting back in the cheap seats watching the fight . . . and reaping the benefits I might add.

And then you stuck this edit in on me by surprise . . . thanks for that . . .

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
I don`t hate the US!! It`s a great country!!! I critcize the actions of this terrible government, which will go into history of one of the worst of the US!



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda.

Terrorists . . . .

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
As soon as the USA allow the majority of them to get out, and only keep real terrorists, they can interrogate them on the NorthPole, in Antarctica or wherever they like to do so.

Would you care to enlighten the rest of us as to how we should tell the difference???
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Thorben
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:26 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 14):
Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.

And those who don't can just BEAT IT!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
SOME ! There in GuantanamoBay (Havanna-East for RyanAir) are "some" 550 people, most of them just "guilty" of having been soldiers in the Taliban ruled army of Afghanistan or having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda. As soon as the USA allow the majority of them to get out, and only keep real terrorists

I remember those British Gitmo prisoners. After they were set free the British police arrested them and they were all released from that without any charges within 24 hours. That leaves the question how many "real terrorists" the US has there.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.

And those who don't can just BEAT IT!

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this particular issue, that sounds horribly reminiscent of Chirac's view about the new countries missing a good opportunity to keep quiet. They are sovereign nations and make their own decisions. Just because you don't like or agree with it is irrelevant; saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.
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gkirk
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.

Especially given Germany's past history  Yeah sure
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oldeuropean
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:37 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
someone has to play hardball with the bad guys

I give you an example. The CIA had to release prisoners fron Guantanamo, after holding them for years, because e.g. they were taxi drivers at the wrong time at the wrong place. Ok, the US army gave them 100 $ as compensation  Yeah sure .
100 bucks for 2 years innocent in prison. Perhaps, if he was abused before he could have get 150 bucks.
You are playing hardball with innocents. And you can`t play hardball as a civilized and democratic country. The regime in the USSR also said that they had to play hardball.
Playing hardball is the wrong way and it uprises more terrorists!

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Klaus
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this particular issue, that sounds horribly reminiscent of Chirac's view about the new countries missing a good opportunity to keep quiet. They are sovereign nations and make their own decisions. Just because you don't like or agree with it is irrelevant; saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.

No, you're actually wrong about that.

By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights, including the power of the european court for human rights.

Violating those standards would be a severe offense and must have consequences. It is still the question, however, if the countries in question are actually members of the EU.


Sad to see the USA discarding the actual core of what they're supposed to stand for - it's a sad case of suicide for fear of dying.
 
Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
No, you're actually wrong about that.

By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights, including the power of the european court for human rights.

Violating those standards would be a severe offense and must have consequences. It is still the question, however, if the countries in question are actually members of the EU.

First thing here, Klaus, the European Court of Human Rights is not an institution of the EU. The European Court is, but that is not the same. A common mistake made by many.

Any EU nation can withdraw from abiding by the Human Rights Court at any time without affecting their EU membership in the slightest.

The next part is that if any breach of various charters of Human Rights in the EU is identified, that can be pursued either in the courts of the constituent country, or, if they are a signatory, through the Court of Human Rights. As such, there are recourses to any prospective breach in any EU state. Quite frankly, it is none of the business of German, French, British or anyone else to make such outrageous statements as saying that they should get lost, they should be evicted from the EU or so forth. That is arrogance of the highest order, and those that say such things have, to coin a phrase, lost an excellent opportunity to keep quiet.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda.

Terrorists . .

no. There were somewhere between 130'000 and 200'000 people who over the years attended such courses. Most of them have returned to normal lives in Europe and the Arab World, only a few dozens got affected by terrorism.
-
And the "Taliban-army" in those days simply was the government army, and not a kind of militia or a unit of "illegal combattants".
 
NoUFO
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 24):
First thing here, Klaus, the European Court of Human Rights is not an institution of the EU. The European Court is, but that is not the same. A common mistake made by many.

And completely irrelevant.

Quoting Banco (Reply 24):
Any EU nation can withdraw from abiding by the Human Rights Court at any time without affecting their EU membership in the slightest.

Even if that is the case, compromising human rights would affect their membership.

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.

It's not about Thorben's position but rather about Europe's stance on the treatment of prisoners. If some new member countries of the European Union tolerate prisons on their soil where prisoners are being held without having access to lawyers (and maybe under other dubious circumstances), then those countries are in breach with the most fundamental rules and standards.
I have no idea what Chirac's pompous outburst has got to do with it.

[Edited 2005-11-02 17:20:54]
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Pope
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:23 am

I'd like someone to address the ticking bomb scenario.

If you had evidence that a detanee / prisoner / terrorist (whatever term you want to use) had information about an attack that was about to occur (a dirty bomb, another 9/11 type attack, a subway bombing, etc. . . ) does anyone really suggest that tourture should not be used to get that information? Please. The business of security is a dirty business and has always been that way. The difference between now and then is that the media has much greater access to information than it ever had before.

I for one have absolutely no problem if we dirty our hands in order to protect the greater good. I find it completely hypocritical that so many of the people who live under the blanket of the protection afforded by security services around the world want the protection but want to reject the manner it is provided.

We are dealing with a relatively small group of people who view sacrificing themselves in order to kill others as a good thing. How else can we respond.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
First thing here, Klaus, the European Court of Human Rights is not an institution of the EU. The European Court is, but that is not the same. A common mistake made by many.

And completely irrelevant.

Wrong.

I quote: "By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights, including the power of the european court for human rights."

That is not true. As I pointed out.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
Quoting Banco (Reply 24):
Any EU nation can withdraw from abiding by the Human Rights Court at any time without affecting their EU membership in the slightest.

Even if that is the case, compromising human rights would affect their membership.

No it wouldn't. What would compromise membership would be any refusal of a state to act when a breach of human rights is found. The Court of Human Rights finds against EU states all the time. If every breach were to be grounds for eviction, the EU would be down to zero members within weeks.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
It's not about Thorben's position but rather about Europe's stance on the treatment of prisoners. If some new member countries of the European Union tolerate prisons on their soil where prisoners are being held without having access to lawyers (and maybe under other dubious circumstances), then those countries are in breach with the most fundamental rules and standards.

No, you see, I don't disagree with you in the slightest on that. I am more than slightly uneasy about it myself. My sole objection was to the arrogant, ignorant comments telling entire countries to piss off.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
I have no idea what Chirac's pompous outburst has got to do with it.

Purely that similar comments were posted above.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
mika
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:32 am

Send them outta there, they need to take their dirty business elsewhere.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 27):
I for one have absolutely no problem if we dirty our hands in order to protect the greater good.

But how could the US alleges they want to distribute democracy in the middle east, when they are the worst example?

Quoting Pope (Reply 27):
We are dealing with a relatively small group of people who view sacrificing themselves in order to kill others as a good thing. How else can we respond.

There are ten thousands, that`s no small group. And by your actions they get more popular. The US don`t distributes democracy, it produces more terrorists.

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 17:43:05]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Pope
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 30):
But how could the US alleges they want to distribute democracy in the middle east, when they are the worst example? You don`t distribute it, you are producing more and more terrorists.

These are two completely separate issues. Democracy is allowing people elect their own leaders. Nobody can say that the US has done anything but fostered democracy in the middle east. None of the people in these jails are their because they were peaceably protesting US occupation of their country. They weren't holding a rally and suddenly US troops stormed in and arrested them for exercising their political freedoms.

No sir, these people were caught red handed in most cases. I have a friend who is a colonel over in Iraq and is responsible for screening enemy combatants for subsequent processing. I consider him to be one of the most honest, honorable people I know. He's told me that he sleeps very soundly at night knowing who we've detained. He's told me that almost always, these people are caught with either explosives or other material that meets or exceeds any probable cause standard that would apply in a US court room.

You seem to be objecting to our conduct based on human rights issues. Well I'll subscribe to the Spoke theory of morality and say that the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Unfortunately sometimes, you have to get messy. Now please address the ticking bomb scenario. What would you do?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:45 am

Banco, I didn't say you were factually wrong, I said that your claim was irrelevant. The European Court was mentioned by Klaus but he adressed your reply and the assumed refusal of some new member contries to comply with European standards concerning prisoners being entitled to certain rights.

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
What would compromise membership would be any refusal of a state to act when a breach of human rights is found.

Exactly, that's why I said that IF those members tolerate prisons that do not meet basic standards, they would be in breach with the intention and the "spirit" on which the European Union is founded.

And, frankly, if you really want to compare Mr. Chrirac's and Thorben's adress to the new member countries, then learn to differentiate between an insulted ego (Chriac) and bewilderment to see "black prisons" in Europe that escape public eyes and control.
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N1120A
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 1):
Just a revival of an old conspiracy theory started by the Kerry campaign during last year's presidential elections in the US.

This is no conspiracy theory. I know people who are representing clients who have been held and tortured by US agents in North Africa and Eastern Europe

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 3):
that American football sucks

Big talk coming from a Scot

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 8):
Not another "let's bash America" thread

This isn't a "let's bash America" thread. This is a thread pointing out the violations of US and international law by the US government

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 8):
Anyways I'd rather have these idiots somewhere behind bars, then having them run around freely in the world killing civilians...

And I am sure you would love to be picked up by US agents and be beaten, imprisioned and tortured.

Quoting Pope (Reply 27):
How else can we respond.

By following our own laws.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mika
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
These are two completely separate issues. Democracy is allowing people elect their own leaders. Nobody can say that the US has done anything but fostered democracy in the middle east.

I think he is refering to the way Bush was or was not democratically elected the president of the USA. Surely it was no clear victory at any point for his part.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
These are two completely separate issues. Democracy is allowing people elect their own leaders.

No, Democracy is unimaginable without respect for Human Rights even if you catch your enemies "red handed". To get this straight: I do not doubt your friend's trustworthiness, but this thread is not about making prisoners but about the lack of transparency. Where are the judges, why aren't those prisons accessible for authorities, what exactly is going on behind those walls. Maybe everything is fine and well but as long as they remain to be in the darkness, rumors won't cease to exist. And if the blood of some Europeans is close to coming to the boil: How will those "black prisons" be adressed by the broader public in the Middle East?
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Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
I didn't say you were factually wrong, I said that your claim was irrelevant. The European Court was mentioned by Klaus but he adressed your reply and the assumed refusal of some new member contries to comply with European standards concerning prisoners being entitled to certain rights.

Look, Klaus made a statement telling me that I was wrong and including a factually incorrect statement. I responded putting the record straight. End of story. There was no need for you to come in and say things were irrelevant, you've just made a bigger thing of it than was ever needed.  Yeah sure

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
And, frankly, if you really want to compare Mr. Chrirac's and Thorben's adress to the new member countries, then learn to differentiate between an insulted ego (Chriac) and bewilderment to see "black prisons" in Europe that escape public eyes and control.

And criticism is fully warranted. What is not is to launch intemperate attacks on countries telling them to get lost. I notice one of those replies has now been edited.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
Look, Klaus made a statement telling me that I was wrong and including a factually incorrect statement. I responded putting the record straight. End of story.

You were erroneously stating that they could violate human rights standards any way they liked because of their "unlimited sovereignty".

By their accession to the EU they have formally bound themselves to uphold the european standards on human rights, so this as any other treaty limits their sovereignty in that regard.

I find it somewhat troubling that you're using the same argument traditionally employed by tyrants and oppressive regimes to protect their respective human rights abuses ("How dare you interfere with our internal affairs!?").
 
NoUFO
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
Look, Klaus made a statement telling me that I was wrong and including a factually incorrect statement. I responded putting the record straight.

Part of Klaus' statement was factually wrong, but that doesn't affect the core of what he has said: "By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights." And: "Violating those standards would be a severe offense and must have consequences."

I hope this is something we can agree with.

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
End of story.

Sir, yes Sir!  Yeah sure  Wink
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miamiair
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:33 am

Me, personally, would give them flying lessons off the ramp of a C-130 in flight. 9/11 was totally done in the US. I personally don't give a rat's ass what the world thinks. Not on my watch, if I have to interogate prisoners with whatever means necessary to extract pertinent information to TO&E of the terrorist organizations, so be it. If that is done in Poland, Lithuania, Slovenia; I don't care, I see that as an act of friendship. So leave the Poles alone OLDEUROPEAN, remember 01 SEPT 1939.
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modernArt
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
We should find out which countries those are and then kick 'em out of the EU. Kick them out without opening the door first.

Most Western European governments are probably not only aware of these detention facilities they are probably in complicit agreement with their locations and are tactfully supplying intelligence and other key components when the need arises.

Western European countries own intellegence arms are mindful of benefit of the removal of known "bad guys" and their associates. You may not like or condone it, but its going on whether you want to believe it or not.
 
Klaus
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 38):
Part of Klaus' statement was factually wrong

What part, exactly?

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 39):
Me, personally, would give them flying lessons off the ramp of a C-130 in flight.

Even regardless of actual, provable guilt? Then you're denouncing everything the USA is supposed to stand for and you could just as well move to Saudi Arabia, where they do "justice" exactly by the standards you're proposing.
 
Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
You were erroneously stating that they could violate human rights standards any way they liked because of their "unlimited sovereignty".

I never said any such thing. I never even used the phrase "unlimited sovereignty", so since you decided to put it in inverted commas as a quote, I would suggest qualifies as a lie. And the numerous posts I have written above clearly demonstrate that they must abide by EU legislation. But you decided to respond to an issue I had not addressed in that first post which was about comments posters made to the Eastern European nations.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
By their accession to the EU they have formally bound themselves to uphold the european standards on human rights, so this as any other treaty limits their sovereignty in that regard.

Er, hello? That is what has been stated by myself on numerous occasions above.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
find it somewhat troubling that you're using the same argument traditionally employed by tyrants and oppressive regimes to protect their respective human rights abuses ("How dare you interfere with our internal affairs!?").

Now that really is a load of old bollocks and indeed, yet another barefaced lie. I have SEVERAL TIMES in this thread said that in my view criticism is justified. I have NEVER said anything about "interfering in interal affairs". I have criticised those whose response was to tell the East European nations that they can get lost on the grounds that their language is arrogant and insulting. I have not AT ANY POINT said there is no right of criticism, and I have agreed with those who say there are matters there to be criticised.

I'll await your apology.  

[Edited 2005-11-02 18:49:33]
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NoUFO
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41):
What part, exactly?

Apparently, you were wrong when you claimed that signing the accession treaties would include the recognition of "the power of the European Court for Human Rights".
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Klaus
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 43):
Apparently, you were wrong when you claimed that signing the accession treaties would include the recognition of "the power of the European Court for Human Rights".

I don't see an error in that... the court is an indispensable part of the european human rights standards. You can't refuse to acknowledge it and still gain EU membership.

But as far as I know we still don't explicitly know which countries these are with the "black prisons" and if they actually are in the EU.
 
Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:07 am

You can't even be bothered to read, can you Klaus?  Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
I don't see an error in that... the court is an indispensable part of the european human rights standards. You can't refuse to acknowledge it and still gain EU membership.

Whatever, it is merely sort of a technical aspect that should not distract from the fact that an EU membership includes commitment to Human Rights. That's why Turkey was (and for many still is) spinning an empty prayer wheel.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 30):
want to distribute democracy in the middle east, when they are the worst example

all about democracy is OK if you are WITH them but nothing if you are NOT, because you then are regarded as being AGAINST them.
 
Klaus
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 45):
You can't even be bothered to read, can you Klaus?

Human rights are not optional in Europe, so I disagree with your claims.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 46):
Whatever, it is merely sort of a technical aspect that should not distract from the fact that an EU membership includes commitment to Human Rights.

It's a part of that commitment... So I see we're in agreement.
 
Banco
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RE: Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
Human rights are not optional in Europe, so I disagree with your claims.

I never said they were. Yet another lie. Yet again you can't even be arsed to read the comments you then reply to. I've had it with this discussion with you, you're a waste of time.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.

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