ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:46 pm

Guess it's time to start sending gunboats with cruise ships . . . of course, I don't know why anyone would want to get into these waters anyway, adventure notwithstanding . . . .



http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/11/05/somalia.pirates/index.html


And once again, Airliners totally relevent, absolutely similar, dead on accurate duplicate thread possibilities . . . . if this isn't a crock of  redflag :

Berlusconi: Flip... And Now Flop by Aloges 2005-10-30 02:07:38
BOA- Bands Of America by Ffis34 2005-11-01 22:05:48
Beavis And Butthead On Comedy Central by AGM114L 2005-11-03 01:09:56
Guys: Be Careful Of What You Wish For by Matt D 2005-11-03 20:39:20
Cruise Lines To Return To New Orleans by MSYtristar 2005-10-27 03:31:27


If you want to make changes, simply click the "Edit Message" button at the bottom of this page.
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Doona
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:51 pm

Maybe people shouldn't go on luxury cruises in parts of the world where the most reliable authority is the World Food Programme?

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
baylorairbear
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:52 pm

Quote:
A luxury cruise line will re-evaluate whether to offer future cruises off the coast of Somalia after pirates attempted to attack one of its ships early Saturday.

Ya think?!?

A "guy I know" sailed around the world for a couple of years, and carried his own RPG's for just this occasion. This stuff happens a lot more often than the masses are aware of.

Why in the hell would rich people want to cruise off of Somalia anyway? *Cue the third world activists*

BAB
I'm just skipping stones...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:58 pm

Ship owners can actually own a bit of military hardware for selfdefense. I also knew some people, who had automatic weapons on board of their yachts when cruising in dangerous waters (Sulu sea, coast of Somalia and Colombia etc.). They only need to have a gun safe on board, which will be sealed by the local customs authorities whenever they enter a port.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:52 am

I've been on that ship and I talked to the crew about pirates and what not. They say it happens a couple times a year, mostly in S.E. Asia.

They actually train the crew and are ready for things like that. On various locations throughout the boat they have massive water cannons that can spray boats that try to get too close. They just hit the attackers with huge gets of water when they try and board.

They also have guns if push comes to shove.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:10 am

The money quote:

"The cruise ship eventually outran the pirates' boats."

Okay, I looked up the speed of the cruise ship, and it's 18 knots, or just a tad under 21MPH. What were the pirates using, canoes?!?
International Homo of Mystery
 
baylorairbear
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:37 am

I heard on the news that they used a concussion canon to drive the pirates away. That's the same thing you use to scare away birds. Just a big bang, no concussion. If there was a concussion, they would've fawked themselves up, too  Smile Maybe the pirates heard the bang, and thought the cruise ship was packing some 16-inchers.  Big grin It's the Indy version of Under Siege  rotfl 

BAB
I'm just skipping stones...
 
Klaus
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
Okay, I looked up the speed of the cruise ship, and it's 18 knots, or just a tad under 21MPH. What were the pirates using, canoes?!?

I'm pretty sure no speedboat can compete with a cruise ship on sustained speed...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:31 am

There have been some fantastic articles about the threat of piracy/sea terrorism in the 21st century.

If terrorists ever hijacked a massive oil tanker and scuttled it in certain strategic waterways, the world economy would be doomed.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Pope
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:38 am

Does anyone know what the rules of the sea are regarding having weapons on board a cruise ship to repel such an attack?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:05 am

Read "Looking for a Ship" by John McPhee. He deals with this topic among others. He is a very good writer of non-fiction. I'd recommend anything he writes.

My nephew is an officer on container ships - "Master, United States Motor or Steam Vessels of any gross tons upon oceans." He said it is a serious problem in southeast Asia and that entire ships have been taken and either scrapped or modified enough to be resold.

It is likely that such an event could only be done with the cooperation of a nation in the region.
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ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:36 am

Here's the Ship Specs page . . .

http://www.seabourn.com/OurShips/Shi...s.asp?Main=OurShips&Sec=specs&Sub=

Not a very fast ship, and not very large . . . kudos to the crew.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
aloges
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
Does anyone know what the rules of the sea are regarding having weapons on board a cruise ship to repel such an attack?

Nope, but I'm sure the line between self-defence and murder would be terribly hard to draw. As in "Huh? Refugees?!? We thought those guys were pirates!"
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
As in "Huh? Refugees?!? We thought those guys were pirates!"

I guess that's plausible . . . don't know too many refugees that'll start shooting at a cruise ship though . . . and usually have women and children among them . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
aloges
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
I guess that's plausible . . . don't know too many refugees that'll start shooting at a cruise ship though . . . and usually have women and children among them . . .

I was thinking more along the lines of a drunk tanker captain deciding not to bother with those "pesky refugees" but instead declare he had thought they were pirates - that is, declare in court. Would make for one interesting evidence-based lawsuit.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
I was thinking more along the lines of a drunk tanker captain deciding not to bother with those "pesky refugees" but instead declare he had thought they were pirates - that is, declare in court. Would make for one interesting evidence-based lawsuit.

Agreed . . . if they ever found any evidence . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
aloges
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Agreed . . . if they ever found any evidence . . .

Bingo.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
KLM-MD11
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
I've been on that ship and I talked to the crew about pirates and what not. They say it happens a couple times a year, mostly in S.E. Asia.

They actually train the crew and are ready for things like that. On various locations throughout the boat they have massive water cannons that can spray boats that try to get too close. They just hit the attackers with huge gets of water when they try and board.

They also have guns if push comes to shove.

well, Ive WORKED on the very same ship for over a year and I can tell you there are no guns or water canons!

I did do the same cruise (from Egypt to Mombassa) and during darkness there would be extra guards out on deck to watch out for pirates. Also, all doors had to be shut on the lower decks.
GELUK IS GELUL MET EEN K
 
SlamClick
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
Nope, but I'm sure the line between self-defence and murder would be terribly hard to draw. As in "Huh? Refugees?!? We thought those guys were pirates!"

Speaking of "huh?" do you get a lot of machineguns and RPGs fired at you by refugees?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
57AZ
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:19 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 8):
If terrorists ever hijacked a massive oil tanker and scuttled it in certain strategic waterways, the world economy would be doomed.

They've already done stuff like that. As for protecting ships at sea, they are well within their rights to carry firearms that can be issued to the crew in such an emergency. So long as they're locked away while in port, it's perfectly legal. Usually the responsibility of dealing with the ship's armory is assigned to the Master at Arms. Regarding maritime law and it's history, piracy was historically a capital offense and any vessel under attack from pirates is permitted to defend against them using lethal force.

Problem with defending a larger ship such as a tanker or container ship is that they typically run with a minimal crew scattered throughout the ship. In many cases, theft of the cargo is the main driver as it can be resold on the black market. In the case of the cruise ship, they obviously got a hold of the sailing schedule and knew enough about the clientel to know that they'd be worth robbing or kidnapping. As for the performance of the vessel, it's obviously capable of more than 16 kts. That speed is probably it's speed for economy or range. My educated guess is that the ship would have a maximum speed in the 25-30 kt. range. It might not be able to run at that speed for a long duration but maybe long enough to get away from danger. I do recall that on a cruise I once took in the Bahamas that we smelled exhaust from the engine room in the cabins one night. The next day we were informed that due to a storm forming in the region, the deck officer had ordered the engineers to give him maximum speed. The fumes that we smelled were due to the engines running at their limit for more than a couple of hours.

[Edited 2005-11-07 07:30:37]
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
aloges
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
Speaking of "huh?" do you get a lot of machineguns and RPGs fired at you by refugees?

May I refer you to reply 14?  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Klm-md11 (Reply 17):
well, Ive WORKED on the very same ship for over a year and I can tell you there are no guns or water canons!


Well, all I can say is they showed me how they did it with these huge water hoses... maybe they were lying.
 
StarCruiser
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:59 pm

Ever since the boarding of the Achille Lauro in 1985 I think cruise ship captains have taken security ever more seriously, and I don't blame them. I have made 16 cruise ship voyages and one thing that has impressed me is that the safety of the passengers is foremost in the mind of the crew. I never, ever, questioned the captain's judgment to choose a safer port due to weather or political instability.

Certainly as a peaceful person I would prefer water cannon (fire hoses?) to firearms, but if necessary I would defer to the experience of the crew. Let's face it, people, there are crazies out there who will do anything for the most ridiculous of reasons. Heading flank speed out to sea would also stop those little boats as the wake from the ship alone should prove to be an obstacle to their ability to continue pursuit.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):

Nope, but I'm sure the line between self-defence and murder would be terribly hard to draw. As in "Huh? Refugees?!? We thought those guys were pirates!

If they are firing on you, they're not refugees; they're terrorists! They deserve to be dealt with accordingly. Any dog knows you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
 
MD-90
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:22 am

Definately wouldn't've been a problem if the pirates were foolishly attacking the SS United States. She'd probably swamp 'em with her wake and fly before the wind to outrun anything other than maybe an aircraft carrier or the fastest of the SSNs.
 
rlwynn
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:19 pm

I think some boiling cooking oil dumped over the side as they tried to climb aboard would get some attention.
I can drive faster than you
 
aloges
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:11 pm

Quoting StarCruiser (Reply 22):
If they are firing on you, they're not refugees; they're terrorists! They deserve to be dealt with accordingly. Any dog knows you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

And may I refer you to reply 20?

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 24):
I think some boiling cooking oil dumped over the side as they tried to climb aboard would get some attention.

Hmmm... the good old medieval low-tech solution, I see?  mischievous   Silly
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
scamp
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:39 am

Seated at my table on a Holland-America cruiseship once was a former purser on the Queen Elizabeth 2. She told us that the Royal Navy used to conduct maneuvers when the ship was sailing into the Channel for Southampton. A group of commadoes would board the ship, while she was moving, and "take over" the wheelhouse, radio room, engine room, and other vital areas. At a designated time unknown to the first group, another group would board the ship and try retake it. Now, admittedly, there wasn't much of a realistic chance that these clowns off Africa could have succeeded in taking over the Spirit. However, the Royal Navy has shown that it is possible to board a much bigger ship under similar or even greater speed and cause havoc, much like the fanatics that took over four airliners in 2001. I can't imagine being all that successful taking over a liner of any size, but when someone is truly determined...
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
dl021
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:29 am

Well....the pirates were using wooden boats with smaller motors that enabled them to match the cruise speed of the liner, but obviously not capable of outrunning the liner. They were also at an extreme disadvantage in that they were vulnerable to the liners efforts to overrun them, and it's maneuvering to prevent them from easily boarding.

The device used by the liner to defend itself is an LRAD...Long Range Acoustic Device...it sends a directed high intensity 'beam' of noise that disorients and deafens its targets. This weapon is one of the non-lethal weapons that have been under development at DARPA and other agencies and have found uses outside of military endeavours.

THese pirates were evidently expecting an unprepared and soft target, instead finding a vessel that was not only prepared, but effectively trained in tactics designed to evade and escape just such an attack. Had the pirates been a well prepared commando force it would have been a different story.

Kudos to the crew and the captain of this ship. I think that short of having a platoon of marines onboard the ship this was the most desireably outcome to this eventuality. I hope that the cruiseliners don't assume that the pirates won't learn from this and get better.

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 24):
I think some boiling cooking oil dumped over the side as they tried to climb aboard would get some attention.

Now, that's some creative thinking! You're now the head of Lube-a-Boob's Defence Technologies Division.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
halls120
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
Does anyone know what the rules of the sea are regarding having weapons on board a cruise ship to repel such an attack?

While there are sparse but fairly well developed rules for the use of force to be employed by government/naval vessels, I know of no rules regarding the use of force/weapons carriage by merchant vessels. The recently-enacted ISPS Code enacted by IMO sets out extensive security measures that don't involve weapons carriage.

That said, I'm pretty sure many shipowners are starting to carry defensive weapons.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 27):
Kudos to the crew and the captain of this ship. I think that short of having a platoon of marines onboard the ship this was the most desirably outcome to this eventuality. I hope that the cruiseliners don't assume that the pirates won't learn from this and get better.

Kudos to the Captain may be in order for how he repelled the attack, but he was an idiot for being there in the first place. MARAD issued a specific warning to all shipping interests to stay at least 200 miles offshore in that area, and the dumbass was only 100 miles offshore. In an area known for attempted piracy.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD-90
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:19 am

Not that I'm predicting anything, but imagine the outcry if terrorists were able to take a cruise liner (anywhere in the world) that was near a US combat fleet. Imagine a ship with hundreds, if not thousands of people on it, headed towards one of our aircraft carriers. Think about the dramatic events, if the ship was either sunk (probably with massive loss of life), or if it actually succeeded in ramming a ship (preferably an aircraft carrier). Seriously bad mojo right there.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 29):
imagine the outcry if terrorists were able to take a cruise liner (anywhere in the world) that was near a US combat fleet. Imagine a ship with hundreds, if not thousands of people on it, headed towards one of our aircraft carriers.

I don't think this is much of a threat. Once they had the vessel it would be very easy for us to track them and impossible for them to track us (unless they had links to many other ships, aircraft and satellites like we have) We could simply maneuver any other vessels out of their way and contain their threat.

The real problem with this situation is just the sheer number of hostages.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
dl021
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 28):
MARAD issued a specific warning to all shipping interests to stay at least 200 miles offshore in that area, and the dumbass was only 100 miles offshore. In an area known for attempted piracy.

Was not aware of that. When was this warning issued and are other cruise lines avoiding that coastline?

If this is a case of the cruise line setting an unsafe course in order to save some fuel then they'll have some problems.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 29):
Not that I'm predicting anything, but imagine the outcry if terrorists were able to take a cruise liner (anywhere in the world) that was near a US combat fleet. Imagine a ship with hundreds, if not thousands of people on it, headed towards one of our aircraft carriers. Think about the dramatic events, if the ship was either sunk (probably with massive loss of life), or if it actually succeeded in ramming a ship (preferably an aircraft carrier). Seriously bad mojo right there.

It wouldn't get near the aircraft carrier, much less any other naval combatant - unless the USN vessel was intent on coming alongside.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Was not aware of that. When was this warning issued and are other cruise lines avoiding that coastline?

Not sure. I'm checking.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:18 am

The German Navy is operating in this area with heavily armed "Schnellboote" (bigger than a MTB, but smaller and faster than a frigate) as part of OP Enduring Freedom. They regularly practise anti boarding drill with machine guns (MG 3) mounted on the railings. And a cruise ship just goes there for fun?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 29):
Think about the dramatic events, if the ship was either sunk (probably with massive loss of life), or if it actually succeeded in ramming a ship (preferably an aircraft carrier).

It should be possible, if not easy, for one of the world's more experienced navies, to disable the ship without sinking it. Most ships can take a lot of hits (of course none being torpedo hits) without sinking, but are unable to manoeuvre or propel themselves after a few well-placed hits.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
scamp
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:14 am

The ideal way, obviously, to disable most any type of ship is to destroy the props/stearing gear. I suppose that requires a torpedo. But then, that creates a disadvantage to the terrorists in that, once aboard, they wouldn't be able to maneuver the vessel themselves assuming that is their desire.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
When was this warning issued and are other cruise lines avoiding that coastline?

I can't find a date for this warning, but here's a tidbit . . .

Apparently, the piratical activity is not news . . .

http://www.maritimematters.com/shipnews.html

"". . . .According to the International Maritime Bureau, at least 23 hijackings and attempted seizures have been recorded off the Somali coast since March (including two ships carrying aid for the UN World Food Program) were hijacked this year. The IMB has warned ships to stay away from the region. Somalia has been without a functioning central government since 1991 when warlords took power.. . . .""
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Of Cruise Ships And Pirates

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:27 am

I remember having heard once that in the 1960s the US government was selling surplus BARs (Browning Automatic Rifles, something between a rifle and a light machine gun used with the US forces between the 1920s and the Korean war) to yachtsmen and ship owners for self defense in pirate infested waters.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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